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Pardon my French [Canadian Politics Thread]

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Posts

  • ShadowBladeShadowBlade Registered User regular
    edited September 2021
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Ugh... this election... I can't support O'Toole, but at least I'll take solace in the fact that, at least for now, he's not trying to do the Maxime Bernier/Doug Ford strategy of "Trump-lite" populist, so thank god for small graces I guess.

    He's not?
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExA97LAWQAAkqnU.jpg
    ugqify3zbcul.jpg

    Pretty sure that's some populist BS right there. In the main slogan. Not to mention telling us all directly they'd not have/will not continue to support those hardest hit by the pandemic. Not to mention the abortion issue they're chomping at the bit to end all rights to. Not to mention them stating explicitly the will end firearm bans and wish to enhance the police state.

    Text is super impossible to imply tone with accurately and I am indeed salty as the ON CONS put my children's lives in danger, but, can you explain your stance a bit better here? In spite of my tone?

    No, that's just a slogan. Populism is appealing to ordinary people and specifically being against the elite largely because they are the elite, or a group because they are given the appearance of being advantaged either by the elites, or because of who they are. It's also not necessarily bad, I'm sure occupy wall street was quite popular in here and that was explicitly a populist message of the 99% (everyone) vs the 1% (wall street / billionaires / "the rich"). Elections are themselves populist in a way, so you're going to get a minimal amount of pandering to everyone and the "hard working Canadians" from everyone

    Trump's "drain the swamp" was populist, everyone vs the DC elites. His anti-immigration stance was populist, as it pitted Americans vs the much smaller set of immigrants and against the elites who were allowing immigration and giving them financial assistance and so on

    The Liberal slogan is "Forward. For Everyone"
    NDP is "Fighting for You"

    "Secure Canada's Future" is... well it might be vaguely nationalist I guess. If you click through "SECURE ACCOUNTABILITY by enacting a new Anti-Corruption law to clean up the mess in Ottawa." might be the closest thing to populism as it does set up an everybody vs corrupt politicians conflict, but it's really just a continuation of the usual "cons investigate the libs for minor scandals" that's been a thing forever

    You don't have to agree with their policies but I don't think populist is really the best critique here. Regressive or reactionary probably

    Also populist political movements tend to be based around a singular figure who inspires fervor. You see this with Trump, and some revolutionary movements who follow the person as much as the ideology and... come on... O'Toole?



    Fair and thanks.

    Removed the spoiler as this is a terrible top of the page. Uggg...

    Maybe this is better.

    How could the overwhelming right wing ownership of the media be countered?

    ShadowBlade on
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  • JeanJean Fully vaccinated papa bear Gatineau, QuébecRegistered User regular
    Padmé sums up my reaction to O'Toole during the debate quite nicely

    kjtqi3x85c41.png

    "You won't destroy us, You won't destroy our democracy. We are a small but proud nation. No one can bomb us to silence. No one can scare us from being Norway. This evening and tonight, we'll take care of each other. That's what we do best when attacked'' - Jens Stoltenberg
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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

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  • The Cow KingThe Cow King a island Registered User regular
    Where the liberals mad at having to negotiate with the ndp to get anything done cause all they've done is piss off the centrist and give the cons ammo so they can lodt andsybe get majority in 8 months??

    It's so fucking dumb who cares about the debate this was a extremely stupid manuveour

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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    eh, we'll see what happens in the English language debate
    aka the one that matters

    (SORRY QUEBEC POSTERS!)

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  • CelloCello Registered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    eh, we'll see what happens in the English language debate
    aka the one that matters

    (SORRY QUEBEC POSTERS!)

    I mean, arguably the French debate is more important than the English one

    Trudeau's path to victory runs through Quebec, and Scheer fucking up the abortion question in Quebec was the beginning of the end of his candidacy

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. boom Registered User regular
    I would say that I don't know if Quebec is actually the key player but the more the parties decide that it is (and they have), the more power it acquires

    liEt3nH.png
    Cello
  • JeanJean Fully vaccinated papa bear Gatineau, QuébecRegistered User regular
    The thing is, Québec have A LOT of swing voters. 52% of Québec voters were open to changing their mind as per the last Léger. Also, we have a lot of close races spread all over our territory. A swing of a couple % points can change a lot of seats.

    "You won't destroy us, You won't destroy our democracy. We are a small but proud nation. No one can bomb us to silence. No one can scare us from being Norway. This evening and tonight, we'll take care of each other. That's what we do best when attacked'' - Jens Stoltenberg
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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Québec is also the second-largest province after Ontario, with more than twice as many seats as the third-largest province (BC). A swing in Québec's votes changes a lot of seats in the Commons.

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Québec is also the second-largest province after Ontario, with more than twice as many seats as the third-largest province (BC). A swing in Québec's votes changes a lot of seats in the Commons.

    @Hardtarget Has voter envy from being in BC.

    PSN: Canadian_llama
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Québec is also the second-largest province after Ontario, with more than twice as many seats as the third-largest province (BC). A swing in Québec's votes changes a lot of seats in the Commons.

    Hardtarget Has voter envy from being in BC.

    He probably also has poutine envy, but I mean, who wouldn't.

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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    So it would be awkward to say that I’ve greatly enjoyed Montréal poutine, but that the best I ever had was in Calgary?

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Forar wrote: »
    So it would be awkward to say that I’ve greatly enjoyed Montréal poutine, but that the best I ever had was in Calgary?

    It's only Poutine if it comes from the Poutine region of Québec. Otherwise, it's merely sparkling fries.

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Forar wrote: »
    So it would be awkward to say that I’ve greatly enjoyed Montréal poutine, but that the best I ever had was in Calgary?

    Being from Montreal and living in Calgary for 15ish years..... I'm curious where said poutine was?

    I've had good poutine here don't get me wrong but nothing top tier.

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  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    Trudeau came to town and the lunatic fringe (PPC) threw rocks at him. Then I find out that Marc Emery is running in my riding for the PPC and suggested on twitter that Trudeau should be hung like Mussolini. He deleted because Mad Max told him to, but his phrasing is just as bad as the original tweet. What a party of garbage human beings. We went for a walk this morning and there's a PPC sign up a few doors down and across the street which made me laugh and cringe.

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  • PhistiPhisti Registered User regular
    I have seen a correlation between "No More Lockdowns" signs and PPC signs in my neighbourhood. Scarily enough one of them is on a PSW's lawn...

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Québec is also the second-largest province after Ontario, with more than twice as many seats as the third-largest province (BC). A swing in Québec's votes changes a lot of seats in the Commons.

    A little under double now afaik.

    But yes I feel like this is one of those things that can often get overlooked in all sorts of Canadian politics. The population distribution of the country is incredibly lopsided. Especially compared to how the provinces are divvied out.

    It's probably the largest underlying factor that drives shit like western alienation imo.

  • OmnomnomPancakeOmnomnomPancake OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2021
    Bloc Quebecois was the federal Opposition party for a time in the 90's, Quebec went very NDP in 2011, and Mulroney could credit his absurd majorities to the province as well. Quebec is often the wild-card that decides these elections as much as the GTA, and I absolutely love it.

    Loving less is how Trudeau got a minority with the lowest popular vote ever in the last election. Coulda used some Electoral reform right about now, goddamn.

    Trying to divine exactly why they chose now for an election, and I wonder if they smelled enough division/confusion on the right, such that a vote split between PCP and Cons, combined with an increasingly unpopular provincial Cons in Ontario and the divisions caused by the UCP in Alberta...

    Man if Trudeau loses, this is getting funnier and funnier. I mean what else can this tragic fucking election amount to but sheer comedy? Housing and rental prices continue to skyrocket alongside the shared global pain of everything costing more and more, and every party's plan is nowhere near credible enough to take on that issue.

    We are mega-fucked, and no party in power is gonna make the necessary moves to stave that off.

    OmnomnomPancake on
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    I dunno man I don't think the prospect of a Conservative government is particularly chuckleworthy. (On the other hand if the NDP by some miracle pull this out I will laugh for days.)

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    I dunno man I don't think the prospect of a Conservative government is particularly chuckleworthy. (On the other hand if the NDP by some miracle pull this out I will laugh for days.)

    Unfortunately the NDP, as always, seems determined to never win.

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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2021
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    So it would be awkward to say that I’ve greatly enjoyed Montréal poutine, but that the best I ever had was in Calgary?

    Being from Montreal and living in Calgary for 15ish years..... I'm curious where said poutine was?

    I've had good poutine here don't get me wrong but nothing top tier.

    It's possible I'm a tasteless heathen (and to be fair, spending a night at a bar drinking and devouring poutine in Montreal was a great way to end a work trip, though also likely took years off my life expectancy).

    Edit deux: you know what? Glancing at Google, it might have been The Big Cheese.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Shadowen wrote: »
    I dunno man I don't think the prospect of a Conservative government is particularly chuckleworthy. (On the other hand if the NDP by some miracle pull this out I will laugh for days.)

    Unfortunately the NDP, as always, seems determined to never win.

    It's not so much that the NDP is not determined to win, it's more that a significant portion of the country like what the NDP wants to do, but would rather vote CPC when they get tired of the LPC.
    For example, the CPC is not going down in flames like the Greens, despite their leader being opposed to everything the party stands for. It's maddening.

    CanadianWolverineHades
  • OmnomnomPancakeOmnomnomPancake OttawaRegistered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    I dunno man I don't think the prospect of a Conservative government is particularly chuckleworthy. (On the other hand if the NDP by some miracle pull this out I will laugh for days.)

    We, as like average, non-rich citizens of Canada, are fucked no matter who is in power, and by varying degrees. Laughter is all I got left.

    The only solace I take in O'Toole's neo-liberal party taking power over the other neo-liberal party, is at least they've acknowledged mental health exists this time; their labour platform is being crafted by Uber lobbyists so it's transparently evil; and he's trying so hard to careen and wobble to the centre that his own party's devout loyalists will likely devour the party from the inside-out before the next election.

    Like, what the fuck are we supposed to do in this country? Keep voting Liberal, while they continue to promise to do shit they 100% coulda done in the past 5 years, much of it easily with NDP support? Do we support the NDP and Singh, who've made a tonne of really cool promises without any actual solid policy-wonk proof to back it up while still never having a dream of being in power?

    God, look at how the Green's new leader threw her own candidates under the bus when they endorsed solidarity with Palestine. On foreign policy alone, these parties all move in lockstep, there's so little actual difference.

    End of the day, let's consider if a party ran on a platform that was bold, ambitious and actually tried to make a huge difference for people's increasingly dire and miserable lives - like broadly strengthening worker's rights; coming down hard on corporations (for tax evasions, abuse of the environment, or maybe all those global mining companies that reside here while plundering the planet at least); creating drastic environmental policies; and making housing actually affordable and not a federal-mortgage backed insanity that will bifurcate our society into a feudal nightmare?

    If this new party gained populist support, the Tories and Liberals would merge to keep that party out of power, without a doubt.

    The PPC is an insane group of hooligans, but the sort of anger they're venting out is shared by a lot of people who have no outlet to express how frustrated they feel about everything staying the same but continually getting worse. That the Liberals came into this election as overly confident as they did speaks to the drastic mental dissonance these vaunted elites have towards what's actually happening in Canada.

  • JeanJean Fully vaccinated papa bear Gatineau, QuébecRegistered User regular
    Phisti wrote: »
    I have seen a correlation between "No More Lockdowns" signs and PPC signs in my neighbourhood. Scarily enough one of them is on a PSW's lawn...

    Not surprising, they are now a one issue party for the anti vax / mask / vaccine passport / lockdown etc. Judging by what I see on social media, they have by far the angriest base.

    They detest O'Toole as much as the other leaders, they are not going back to the CPC.

    I truly wonder how many votes they will actually get but it's going to be above the 1,6% they got in 2019, for sure. They will be above the Greens and perhaps even the Bloc.

    "You won't destroy us, You won't destroy our democracy. We are a small but proud nation. No one can bomb us to silence. No one can scare us from being Norway. This evening and tonight, we'll take care of each other. That's what we do best when attacked'' - Jens Stoltenberg
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    I dunno man I don't think the prospect of a Conservative government is particularly chuckleworthy. (On the other hand if the NDP by some miracle pull this out I will laugh for days.)

    We, as like average, non-rich citizens of Canada, are fucked no matter who is in power, and by varying degrees. Laughter is all I got left.

    Nah, I'm pretty sure we are way way more fucked if the Cons get in power.

    Have a gander at Ontario and ask how many of us know this.

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  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    PPC are mad max's vanity party, "I CAN LEAD A PARTY TOO!" I mean, on one hand it's draining the crazy out of the Cons, and I do like to see the right fracture but at the same time, wow, those people are garbage.

  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    edited September 2021
    The real problem with the PPC isn't the likelihood of them winning (which is almost certain to not happen), but what happens if vote-splitting causes both right-wing parties to collapse. This will almost certainly result in them and the Cons merging to reunite the right wing vote. Because Reform already did this to radicalize the federal Tories, and Wildrose did it in Alberta to create the UCP, overt white supremacists doing it will mean that overt white supremacists will have basically a coin toss chance of winning any given federal election, because it seems like most voters only pay attention to party name and not actual policy or even rhetoric.

    Shadowen on
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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    Heard some o'toole today promising to open up Canadian telecom to international companies in the name of "competition".
    This would be wonderful if you want to have Comcast own the entire country and have no competition whatsoever, sure.

    I have a bias in this area because of my work but that's literally what the actual big players do. They could outspend the current companies 10 to 1 and not give a fuck.

    Obviously I am not a fan of the cons for their shit social policy and austerity "balanced budget in 10 years (HAH!) but this is just icing on the hate cake.

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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Heard some o'toole today promising to open up Canadian telecom to international companies in the name of "competition".
    This would be wonderful if you want to have Comcast own the entire country and have no competition whatsoever, sure.

    I have a bias in this area because of my work but that's literally what the actual big players do. They could outspend the current companies 10 to 1 and not give a fuck.

    Obviously I am not a fan of the cons for their shit social policy and austerity "balanced budget in 10 years (HAH!) but this is just icing on the hate cake.

    hey, how about instead the promise is to not allow Rogers to buy Shaw and ask Shaw and Rogers to compete coast to coast so there is real competition! that would be nice!


    this shaw buyout is so fucked

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Jean wrote: »
    Phisti wrote: »
    I have seen a correlation between "No More Lockdowns" signs and PPC signs in my neighbourhood. Scarily enough one of them is on a PSW's lawn...

    Not surprising, they are now a one issue party for the anti vax / mask / vaccine passport / lockdown etc. Judging by what I see on social media, they have by far the angriest base.

    They detest O'Toole as much as the other leaders, they are not going back to the CPC.

    I truly wonder how many votes they will actually get but it's going to be above the 1,6% they got in 2019, for sure. They will be above the Greens and perhaps even the Bloc.

    Hey now, they have at least two issues. Their candidate doorknocking in my riding has not merely been claiming vaccine and mask mandates are literally the Holocaust - she's also been starting her sales pitch on peoples' doorsteps by talking about how "those people" are a threat to the nation's cultural purity and must be gotten rid of.

    ... That probably counts as three issues, if we assume practiced doublethink counts as an issue.

  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. boom Registered User regular
    the ndp won't really have the option to seriously win for quite some time, owing to long-standing propaganda against "the left" and racism

    but there's a lot of ways to play it out so that you get sustained and meaningful power even if you're not the majority party

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  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    the ndp won't really have the option to seriously win for quite some time, owing to long-standing propaganda against "the left" and racism

    but there's a lot of ways to play it out so that you get sustained and meaningful power even if you're not the majority party

    I'm not sure what actually winning looks like for the NDP without vote reform. Successfully eating the Liberal party would make current members a minority in their own party and I'd predict a sudden surge in the Greens if that happened.

  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Heard some o'toole today promising to open up Canadian telecom to international companies in the name of "competition".
    This would be wonderful if you want to have Comcast own the entire country and have no competition whatsoever, sure.

    I have a bias in this area because of my work but that's literally what the actual big players do. They could outspend the current companies 10 to 1 and not give a fuck.

    Obviously I am not a fan of the cons for their shit social policy and austerity "balanced budget in 10 years (HAH!) but this is just icing on the hate cake.

    hey, how about instead the promise is to not allow Rogers to buy Shaw and ask Shaw and Rogers to compete coast to coast so there is real competition! that would be nice!


    this shaw buyout is so fucked

    In general, we have tried "more competition" multiple times. It doesn't work, to the point where Harper tried more regulations. The market is too small, and it's too easy to get a virtual monopoly, or at least informal collusion.

    At this point, the thing to do is try using a crown corporation for phone and Internet services. This would at least set a floor for services.

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  • CelloCello Registered User regular
    Tenek wrote: »
    the ndp won't really have the option to seriously win for quite some time, owing to long-standing propaganda against "the left" and racism

    but there's a lot of ways to play it out so that you get sustained and meaningful power even if you're not the majority party

    I'm not sure what actually winning looks like for the NDP without vote reform. Successfully eating the Liberal party would make current members a minority in their own party and I'd predict a sudden surge in the Greens if that happened.

    The current 18-34 polling numbers for the NDP are pretty interesting if they hold longer-term as folks age out of the group

    Anecdotally, they seem to be growing in their support among my 30+ cohort

    I don't think they'll be truly contentious for another several years yet, depending on if Singh can keep expanding voteshare over time, but if a minority government with the current seat projections ends up being anywhere accurate, it could be a pretty strong position for 'em to build their brand out larger and have a strong effect on policy

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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Anyone else watching the second French debate?

    I don't know who this woman asking questions is, but I like her. Her "I'm sick of your shit, every single last one of you" attitude while asking very pointed and relevant questions is dear to my heart.

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    Gnome-InterruptusCanadianWolverineKayne Red Robe
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    edited September 2021
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Heard some o'toole today promising to open up Canadian telecom to international companies in the name of "competition".
    This would be wonderful if you want to have Comcast own the entire country and have no competition whatsoever, sure.

    I have a bias in this area because of my work but that's literally what the actual big players do. They could outspend the current companies 10 to 1 and not give a fuck.

    Obviously I am not a fan of the cons for their shit social policy and austerity "balanced budget in 10 years (HAH!) but this is just icing on the hate cake.

    hey, how about instead the promise is to not allow Rogers to buy Shaw and ask Shaw and Rogers to compete coast to coast so there is real competition! that would be nice!


    this shaw buyout is so fucked

    In general, we have tried "more competition" multiple times. It doesn't work, to the point where Harper tried more regulations. The market is too small, and it's too easy to get a virtual monopoly, or at least informal collusion.

    At this point, the thing to do is try using a crown corporation for phone and Internet services. This would at least set a floor for services.

    I work for the big telecom in the North, and spent a number of years in the support department, and one of the most common things I heard people say is, "Service is so much better and cheaper in the south!"

    I mean, cheaper I'll give you, but that can be said about EVERYTHING up here BUT

    service? Not in my experience. My internet service up here was SO much better when I moved than anything I got from Shaw or Telus in Calgary (Of course, it's been 10 years, and I know that Shaw was offering some pretty good packages at one point, though they retired the really good ones some years ago).

    In fact, I went all over Canada comparing the major providers in the south with us just to see, and the fact of the matter is, cost is really the only thing separating us from the south.

    Except in Saskatchewan.

    Sasktel is EASILY the best ISP in Canada. Holy shit, do they offer, fast, cheap internet. Way better than any other provider in Canada by a huge fucking margin.

    And they're a crown corp. And they're profitable.

    Free market can get FUCKED.

    Nova_C on
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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    This is so weird. So far the strongest attacks feel like they've come from the moderators' questions.

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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Well that was boring. Trudeau's attacks against O'Toole all fell flat. O'Toole proudly announced vague plans and promised things Québec doesn't want. Blanchet wasn't at his best. Paul managed to look vapid and lacking in substance in a five-way political debate, which is an accomplishment in itself. Singh was there too.

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  • JeanJean Fully vaccinated papa bear Gatineau, QuébecRegistered User regular
    O'toole is still somewhat of an improvement over Scheer.

    I actively despised Scheer. O'Toole... meh. Underwhelming would be the best word to describe him.

    "You won't destroy us, You won't destroy our democracy. We are a small but proud nation. No one can bomb us to silence. No one can scare us from being Norway. This evening and tonight, we'll take care of each other. That's what we do best when attacked'' - Jens Stoltenberg
    RichyLordSolarMacharius
This discussion has been closed.