Black Lives Matter Thread 4

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  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular

    I don't know what has been more disturbing for me to realize this year, the massive size of police budgets compared to everything else or just how much power police have when they can just... not do their job, harass those who have authority over them, and get away with that.

    I don't have much faith that any of the municipality leaderships who are trying massive change can hold out long enough to see them implemented.

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Tomanta wrote: »

    I don't know what has been more disturbing for me to realize this year, the massive size of police budgets compared to everything else or just how much power police have when they can just... not do their job, harass those who have authority over them, and get away with that.

    I don't have much faith that any of the municipality leaderships who are trying massive change can hold out long enough to see them implemented.

    More and more it seems the greatest stretch of imagination that The Wire had was the police being accountable for their actions.

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    I pissed off a lot of racists on Twitter this morning. Not by accident per se but for 6am this is pretty swift 'backlash.' I'm not worried, I'm glad it worked.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Tomanta wrote: »

    I don't know what has been more disturbing for me to realize this year, the massive size of police budgets compared to everything else or just how much power police have when they can just... not do their job, harass those who have authority over them, and get away with that.

    I don't have much faith that any of the municipality leaderships who are trying massive change can hold out long enough to see them implemented.

    That’s why defunding is the only viable path

    It’s harder for them to keep their racket up with half or less (hopefully) of actual money going to their bank account

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  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    Defunding and accountability I feel are just the start
    As why do you need a state issued llicense to do construction but not an officer? Really is another question I feel people should be asking
    There is NO excuse for the police to have access to the same level of gear I had in Afghanistan/Iraq and be so causal about it. Not even having a 10th of the training I had with it

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    I don't usually like to do this but I'm too proud of this. Fuck racist people.



    As a Mexican-American let me also say, there are many Mexicans who have a "fuck you, I got mine" attitude about things and either don't mind or like to see active harm done to other Mexicans, immigrants, or both. So fuck them.

    This includes the CEO of Goya foods. Fucking dipshit standing there with Trump going "oh thank god for you" while Mexican children are being held in cages still. Traitor.

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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Re: Robert Fueller, the LA Times article makes a reasonable case that it's not a coverup and really was a suicide. The investigation was done with federal oversight, Fueller had a history of schizophrenia and self-professed suicidal thoughts, the body supposedly didn't show signs of having been in a struggle, and the rope he was hung with matched one he bought himself from a hardware store a month before using his own card he was seen using in other stores on security camera footage later.

    Now they just need to explain away the immediately previous hanging of a black man in that region, the event where they shot and killed Fueller's half-brother on the freeway, and the latino kid they shot to death five times in the back and tried to destroy the security camera evidence of afterwards.

    Counter point, here is a podcast with investigative journalist Billy Jensen explaining how the cops literally avoided investigating until all the evidence was muddled enough they could come up with whatever conclusion they wanted.
    https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-worst-year-ever-49377032/episode/how-to-do-police-work-when-65562057/

    It can both be a suicide and criminal negligence on the part of the PD.

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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    I don't usually like to do this but I'm too proud of this. Fuck racist people.

    As a Mexican-American let me also say, there are many Mexicans who have a "fuck you, I got mine" attitude about things

    High-five, Henroid.

    That's part of my extended family, and it absolutely boggles my mind. It's, like, "You realize that they actually don't like you? Like, you aren't 'one of the good ones' who is going to be spared, right?"

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    edited July 10
    Yeah it has been shown historically time and time again that there are people who side with supremacists thinking they will be rewarded, but then when power is consolidated SURPRISE! Harm comes their way too. The one thing they genuinely share with supremacists is inability to learn from history.

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  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    I always bought Goya when making Mexican based off name recognition. Guess it's time to try out other brands.

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  • sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    Like half of Goya’s stuff sucks anyway.

    Their black beans are ass and so is their yuca.

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    There's plenty of other brands of Hispanic foods to get so don't even sweat it.

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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Yeah it has been shown historically time and time again that there are people who side with supremacists thinking they will be rewarded, but then when power is consolidated SURPRISE! Harm comes their way too. The one thing they genuinely share with supremacists is inability to learn from history.

    Someone mentioned yesterday "historically, when the time comes, liberals always end up siding with the fascists"
    Capitalists have not morals.

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    In the academic study of fascism, liberals don't necessarily side with fascists, but they enable their power grabs and don't really know how to read the room as far as what's coming. No effort in stopping things before it gets to where it's going.

    We're at the 'end game' of this latest fascist power grab and people are kinda in denial about it. Because "this is America." Troops were leveraged against our own citizens, a pandemic is being allowed to propagate among the population, non-whites are being hunted down (with ICE starting a training course on doing that, in case anyone missed the news from the Immigration thread in D&D), non-cis het people are being dehumanized and having rights removed.

    It's a complete shitshow and we are in the fight right now literally. Anyone who suggests we are not is of privileged status.

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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    I meant (again, historically) they would rather watch the fascists win than admit the socialists were right.

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  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    edited July 10
    I always get confused what liberals are exactly in US context, because I'm forgetful and here they are generally the free market laizzes faire types in politics, while socialists is what everyone slightly left and further left calls themselves.

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I meant (again, historically) they would rather watch the fascists win than admit the socialists were right.
    Oh that too. Privilege is a hell of a drug as it turns out.

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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    I always get confused what liberals are exactly in US context, because I'm forgetful and here they are generally the free market laizzes faire types in politics, while socialists is what everyone slightly left and further left calls themselves.

    yeah the centrist "neo-libral" movement in the second half of the 20th century fucked up our definitions for political leanings.

    I think the labels from left to right generally go:
    Anarchist/Leftist/Democratic Socialist/Progressive/Liberal/Independent/Libertarian/Conservative/Christian Conservative/Alt-Right

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  • ThatDudeOverThereThatDudeOverThere Clock King Registered User regular
    the problem is that political beliefs and allegiances are more complex than a left-to-right line or even that popular social vs economic x/y axis chart can accurately convey

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    edited July 10
    Frankly we should be getting rid of the 2D "left to right" political alignment altogether. I get why it's there when you're supposed to have a two party system, but since the Democrats abandoned the concept of being an opposition party to Republicans the whole thing needs to be thrown out.

    Besides after like, five seconds of thought, it's pretty easy to conclude that trying to put political beliefs on a flat bar like that is silly.

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  • LabelLabel Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    I always get confused what liberals are exactly in US context, because I'm forgetful and here they are generally the free market laizzes faire types in politics, while socialists is what everyone slightly left and further left calls themselves.

    I suspect the confusion is an intentional strategy by the conservative movement, to make any attempt at restricting rich people though government action harder.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    I use the adjectives for Democrats (from left to right) Socialist -> Progressive -> Liberal -> Centrist -> Conservative

    Because you can be (Adjective) Democrat in this country, for any of those ones I just listed. Which is why AOC was right when she said it's crazy that her and Biden are in the same party. And yes SocDem and DemSoc mean different things and the latter is closer to my usage but it's a formatting thing so I'm going with it, it's largely fo internal use anyway

    also small point of order "left to right" is technically one dimensional. The two dimensional models are ... worse?

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    Also I've always viewed "liberal" as a nicer form of libertarian, where it isn't about "I CAN DO WHAT I WANT" but rather "other people can do what they want."

    I dunno if that's what it actually is, but the peers I've developed over the last few years have used it in that context with enough consistency for it to be what is in my head.

    Republicans use liberal, leftist, Democrat, progressive, etc interchangeably so they're a bad source for trying to figure out what any of that shit means.

    God. I don't care to have a political label like that.

    I just believe in not treating people like shit. Where's that label? Fucking ffffffff I'm going to bed finally.

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  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    the problem is that political beliefs and allegiances are more complex than a left-to-right line or even that popular social vs economic x/y axis chart can accurately convey

    Lord do I hate the political compass. I once saw someone talking about where a "liberal" would fall on one as if it were an absolute. -1, -2 was their answer, and they state it as if it was unquestionable. As if all political beliefs were quantifiable on a 2d square.

  • ThatDudeOverThereThatDudeOverThere Clock King Registered User regular
    as flawed as "left wing" and "right wing" are as terms, I'm hesitant to throw them out in a world where horseshoe theory dipshits are crowing about how bernie supporters and trump supporters are the same

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    US Liberal differs in that largely the US Right has used Liberal as anything to the left of them, which means it essentially came to mean Dems et al.

    The US Left increasingly uses the term Liberal to mean Centrist (i.e. socially liberal but large capitalistic) and arguably there is such a thing as Neoliberalism which is kind of like a Clinton-esque Globalist Capitalist Liberal Democracy.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Frankly we should be getting rid of the 2D "left to right" political alignment altogether. I get why it's there when you're supposed to have a two party system, but since the Democrats abandoned the concept of being an opposition party to Republicans the whole thing needs to be thrown out.

    Besides after like, five seconds of thought, it's pretty easy to conclude that trying to put political beliefs on a flat bar like that is silly.

    In actual political theory the 2D line is largely dead as a concept.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited July 10
    The most shocking thing to me is how blatently mainstream outlets are ignoring the protests after the initial ones. If it weren't for social media, they would maybe have just dissappeared from public consioucness altogether.

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  • chr1sh4ll3ttb3chr1sh4ll3ttb3 A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    The Overton window has shifted so far right in the US that none of their labels actually translate directly to other countries.

    People that get called socialist dictators in the US (Bernie Sanders) would be centrists in Scandinavian countries, even center-right in some more progressive societies.

    Murdoch (and also Fairfax and Stokes, yes) media has pushed the window right in Australia too, we have blue collar workers who would traditionally be unionists (and generally fairly leftist, if perhaps not actual socialists or communists) commenting on the social media pages of mainsteream news outlets that all immigrants should be either mulched or turned over directly to the aggressors they are trying to avoid by immigrating here.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    The whole left/right spectrum is literally from where people used to sit in the French National Assembly in like 1790

    There’s some merit to how the distinctions were made prior to this abstraction, based on class interests. Though this is also too simple, it’d be great to refer to Republicans as the Aristocrat party and Dems as the Merchant party. Socialists are better about this now (workers or Labour)

    Libertarians on this context (the National Assembly) would actually be on the far left part of the chamber, too naive to realize the Aristocrats were licking their chops at the opportunities the libertarian platform would create to hoard more of the share of wealth

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  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Anarchism is political philosophy not tethered to any "left/right" analog.

    There are far right and far left anarchists. And no, they don't get along.

    Also any sort of scale does overlook the fact that even if two groups are, say, equally socialist, they may disagree almost entirely on what is the best way to implement socialist action. (This is less true in the US though, as the extreme prejudice and government harassment of socialists led to more of a conglomeration than in most countries, where you might have multiple socialist movements all succesfully obtaining political power. "Hang together or we all hang separately" and all that.)

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  • Devlin_DragonusDevlin_Dragonus Gorgeous Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    The most shocking thing to me is how blatently mainstream outlets are ignoring the protests after the initial ones. If it weren't for social media, they would maybe have just dissappeared from public consioucness altogether.

    Saw this last night when i was trying to go to bed and it was pretty great and relevant.



    My take away was those guys were legends and.. riots work.

    I got nothing for you now. Try again later.

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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    There was a historical time when libertarian was in the same splitting hairs ballpark area of political thought with what we now call anarchism, or socialism or unionism or communism, at least from how I read things

    Right wing libertarians in the USA want to replace the government with corporations, which I think is such nonsense it isn't treated as a serious idea anywhere else in the world

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Left and right always made sense to me if you understand them as a measure of how much power is, or is desired to be, spread. Left wing politics want power shared widely while right wing politics want it consolidated. Theres no need to try to define them by mapping on specific transient political issues and they're wholly seperate from a measure of how much authority is exercised in a society.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited July 10
    Far-right Anarchists are not really Anarchists, they're Primitivists or Libertarians or, largely, grifters.

    Like An-Caps say they're Anarchists but what exactly is Anarchistic about stateless Free Market Capitalism? This isn't so much about me being an An-Soc who hates An-Caps (though I do) but rather like, I literally can't see it. It's like how National Socialist really means Fascist Corporatism. There's fuck all Socialist about it.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    It kind of bothers me that we let libertarian be defined as a solely right wing thing.

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  • 3clipse3clipse I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    Modern libertarianism has a core tenet an absolutely unfettered market, which is an inherently right-wing idea.

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  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    It kind of bothers me that we let libertarian be defined as a solely right wing thing.

    It's mostly because everyone who self identifies as libertarian is just a Republican that smokes pot

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  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    Oh good



    Hopefully this one will last awhile

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