Star Trek: Lower Decks trailer is out. SPOILERS in effect!

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  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Donnicton wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    STO has mad me come around half way on the Klingons, but what they did really can't be reconciled with the show.

    Gowron has a nightmare hybrid of a grandfather who's half regular, quarter TOS, quarter Discovery, and 100% bug eyes.
    jo0fwmwhy4ir.png

    See this is fine. Anything that reels them back in a little bit from space orks with rigid armor nobody could actually fight in

    Listen, those spine plates had a very important function, it protected them from rogue barrels. They as a culture learned a lesson long ago that an isolated Klingon like Worf had to learn the hard way.

    The Qo'nos Drop Barrel is a myth.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

    Hahnsoo1RMS Oceanic
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Donnicton wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    STO has mad me come around half way on the Klingons, but what they did really can't be reconciled with the show.

    Gowron has a nightmare hybrid of a grandfather who's half regular, quarter TOS, quarter Discovery, and 100% bug eyes.
    jo0fwmwhy4ir.png

    See this is fine. Anything that reels them back in a little bit from space orks with rigid armor nobody could actually fight in

    Listen, those spine plates had a very important function, it protected them from rogue barrels. They as a culture learned a lesson long ago that an isolated Klingon like Worf had to learn the hard way.

    The Qo'nos Drop Barrel is a myth.

    Myth? Or deadliest predator known to Klingon history?

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Donnicton wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    STO has mad me come around half way on the Klingons, but what they did really can't be reconciled with the show.

    Gowron has a nightmare hybrid of a grandfather who's half regular, quarter TOS, quarter Discovery, and 100% bug eyes.
    jo0fwmwhy4ir.png

    See this is fine. Anything that reels them back in a little bit from space orks with rigid armor nobody could actually fight in

    Listen, those spine plates had a very important function, it protected them from rogue barrels. They as a culture learned a lesson long ago that an isolated Klingon like Worf had to learn the hard way.

    The Qo'nos Drop Barrel is a myth.

    Myth? Or deadliest predator known to Klingon history?

    a remnant of the great Duan'Kikong wars

    Rhinoceroussee317DonnictonAuralynxCambiataNightslyrMorganV
  • LJDouglasLJDouglas Registered User regular
    edited September 14
    The redesign of the Klingons is endemic of a habit in Discovery to massively overdesign characters. Their justification before the show came out was something along the lines of "Well the Klingons have been redesigned before" which is true, they changed their look between the Original Series and the Motion Picture. Every change between then and TNG was a refinement of that basic design, which was an iconic look, Klingons have great big forehead ridges and long dark hair, but the majority of the actor's face is left untouched so they can act. Then Discovery comes along and buries their actors in 20 pounds of latex, stuffs massive false teeth in their mouths and makes the actors read out their lines in Klingon to be subtitled later. Plus they made them all bald, then retconned that in season 2 as Klingons shaving their hair when they go to war, and apparently grow out a good foot of hair in the, at most, couple months between the season 1 finale and start of season 2. They did similar going and redesigning the Andorians, giving them massive cheek spikes, just in case we didn't realise the bright blue guys with antennae were aliens. Or the Tellarite we see in one episode, Enterprise did a wonderful job of updating the rather primitive mask from TOS, but Discovery comes along and decides to give them tusks that would make an Ork blush.

    That plus a desire to put their budget on screen as much as possible, the bridge doesn't have a little viewscreen normally kept out of shot, it has a massive window filled with HUD effects, the consoles are enormous fully animated and fill every wall, communications aren't via viewscreen, there's holoprojectors all over the ship. Time and again they keep doing tons of expensive effects work (a lot of it of tech that's anachronistic to the time period the show's supposed to be set in) and it just makes me thing, if they could go for a few less massive CGI space battles, could they find it in their budget to add another episode or two? The plot of the show moves at a breakneck pace, and because they have so few episodes, everything in each episode has to be about the plot, with no time for character work. We're 2 seasons in and I think I could name maybe 3 of the bridge crew without looking them up, and one of them's Miriam, who they killed in the one episode they spent developing her character.

    Apart from wanting to make Michael Spock's super secret sister, I have no idea why they decided to set the show in the TOS era. They evidently didn't want to stick with the aesthetics of that time period, wanting technology far more advanced than even the TNG time period. It wouldn't have been hard to tweak the basic plot to make the Klingons a previously undiscovered war like alien race, since about the only thing Disco Klingons have in common with original brand is talking about Kahless, and for some reason Discovery even has them change that to Kahlesh to I guess sound more alien.

    LJDouglas on
    DanHibikiCommander Zoomautono-wally, erotibot300StrikorNightslyrwandering
  • MsAnthropyMsAnthropy The Lady of Pain Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm The City of FlowersRegistered User regular
    LJDouglas wrote: »
    The redesign of the Klingons is endemic of a habit in Discovery to massively overdesign characters. Their justification before the show came out was something along the lines of "Well the Klingons have been redesigned before" which is true, they changed their look between the Original Series and the Motion Picture. Every change between then and TNG was a refinement of that basic design, which was an iconic look, Klingons have great big forehead ridges and long dark hair, but the majority of the actor's face is left untouched so they can act. Then Discovery comes along and buries their actors in 20 pounds of latex, stuffs massive false teeth in their mouths and makes the actors read out their lines in Klingon to be subtitles later. Plus they made them all bald, then retconned that in season 2 as Klingons shaving their hair when they go to war, and apparently grow out a good foot of hair in the, at most, couple months between the season 1 finale and start of season 2. They did similar going and redesigning the Andorians, giving them massive cheek spikes, just in case we didn't realise the bright blue guys with antennae were aliens. Or the Tellarite we see in one episode, Enterprise did a wonderful job of updating the rather primitive mask from TOS, but Discovery comes along and decides to give them tusks that would make an Ork blush.

    That plus a desire to put their budget on screen as much as possible, the bridge doesn't have a little viewscreen normally kept out of shot, it has a massive window filled with HUD effects, the consoles are enormous fully animated and fill every wall, communications aren't via viewscreen, there's holoprojectors all over the ship. Time and again they keep doing tons of expensive effects work (a lot of it of tech that's anachronistic to the time period the show's supposed to be set in) and it just makes me thing, if they could go for a few less massive CGI space battles, could they find it in their budget to add another episode or two? The plot of the show moves at a breakneck pace, and because they have so few episodes, everything in each episode has to be about the plot, with no time for character work. We're 2 seasons in and I think I could name maybe 3 of the bridge crew without looking them up, and one of them's Miriam, who they killed in the one episode they spent developing her character.

    Apart from wanting to make Michael Spock's super secret sister, I have no idea why they decided to set the show in the TOS era. They evidently didn't want to stick with the aesthetics of that time period, wanting technology far more advanced than even the TNG time period. It wouldn't have been hard to tweak the basic plot to make the Klingons a previously undiscovered war like alien race, since about the only thing Disco Klingons have in common with original brand is talking about Kahless, and for some reason Discovery even has them change that to Kahlesh to I guess sound more alien.

    The thing that gets me about the Discovery Klingon redesign is that I can’t see Troi and Dax wanting to bone Worf if he looked like that instead of what we got in TNG / DS9.

    Well, okay, maybe Dax since she offscreen dated a dude with a see-through skull...

    "The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited September 14
    Transparent skull, nonstandard numbers of eyes, leafy vines... If you judge from the stories she told Kira, Dax was open minded.

    Hevach on
    MsAnthropyCambiataStrikor
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    yeah but two dicks tho

  • MsAnthropyMsAnthropy The Lady of Pain Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm The City of FlowersRegistered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    yeah but two dicks tho

    Crafted by the Discovery designers? That seems like twice the horror. And again, don’t see Deanna being into give how bland all of her other dates were.

    "The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
    Strikor
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    MsAnthropy wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    yeah but two dicks tho

    Crafted by the Discovery designers? That seems like twice the horror. And again, don’t see Deanna being into give how bland all of her other dates were.

    well i mean she was growing older

  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    Transparent skull, nonstandard numbers of eyes, leafy vines... If you judge from the stories she told Kira, Dax was open minded.

    Look, you hit three or four hundred years of experience, you see if you don't try to branch out a little bit too.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    MsAnthropyHahnsoo1ShadowenStrikorDonnictonGnome-Interruptus
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Discovery would be a better show if it didn't have the trappings of Star Trek, then they could just do their own thing

    JacobkoshMsAnthropyCasual
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Discovery would be a better show if it didn't have the trappings of Star Trek, then they could just do their own thing

    but then would anyone watch it?

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    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    painfulPleasance
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Transparent skull, nonstandard numbers of eyes, leafy vines... If you judge from the stories she told Kira, Dax was open minded.

    Look, you hit three or four hundred years of experience, you see if you don't try to branch out a little bit too.

    Sounds like she was more interested in branching in, nudge nudge wink wink.
    OH SHIT, KLINGON DROP BARREL ATTACK

  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Discovery would be a better show if it didn't have the trappings of Star Trek, then they could just do their own thing

    but then would anyone watch it?

    I'm not sure, it would certainly have a smaller initial viewership. I feel like if it was good, yeah

    I'm thinking it might be better if it wasn't constrained but maybe not

  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    "if it was good..."

    I uh... I got some bad news for ya.

    override367DanHibikiCommander ZoomAbsoluteZeropainfulPleasance
  • MsAnthropyMsAnthropy The Lady of Pain Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm The City of FlowersRegistered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    MsAnthropy wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    yeah but two dicks tho

    Crafted by the Discovery designers? That seems like twice the horror. And again, don’t see Deanna being into give how bland all of her other dates were.

    well i mean she was growing older

    Man, you just gotta love Frakes' grin getting bigger and bigger in the second part of that clip.

    "The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
    JandaruJacobkoshStrikorhlprmnkyDonnictonNightslyrboogedybooSnicketysnick
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    MsAnthropy wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    MsAnthropy wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    yeah but two dicks tho

    Crafted by the Discovery designers? That seems like twice the horror. And again, don’t see Deanna being into give how bland all of her other dates were.

    well i mean she was growing older

    Man, you just gotta love Frakes' grin getting bigger and bigger in the second part of that clip.

    holy shit I never noticed that before.

    I'm dying

    steam_sig.png
    kHDRsTc.png
    Munkus BeaverMsAnthropyshrykeoverride367StrikorNightslyr
  • NaphtaliNaphtali Null Registered User regular
    or more

    B.net: Naphtali#1830 | Steam | Nintendo ID: Naphtali | PSN: EI-Naphtali | Wish List
    override367JacobkoshMsAnthropy
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I swear he's got the best gigantic fucking grin I've ever seen on TV.

    MsAnthropyDark_SideJacobkoshStrikorDonnictonNightslyrShadowhope
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I love how even people new to the show not hate watching it with others, not feeding on negative discourse week by week, etc, have all the same complaints months later lol. Clearly shows that Picard had some major problems

    I think across the board, even the most ardent Picard super fans have admitted the show had a litany of problems and buckets of missed opportunities. I think it will age fairly well in greater Trek universe, but will ultimately be concluded to have been a victim of being underfunded from the get go, causing an abbreviated episode count and a pernicious sense of cheapness to pervade most of the scenes, which put a spotlight on the writing problems.

    Those of us that liked it pointed out it's season 1 of a Star Trek show, which means of course it's not 100% there yet. It'll be one or two seasons until it "grows the beard."

    CroakerBCDark_Sideoverride367Strikor
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I love how even people new to the show not hate watching it with others, not feeding on negative discourse week by week, etc, have all the same complaints months later lol. Clearly shows that Picard had some major problems

    I think across the board, even the most ardent Picard super fans have admitted the show had a litany of problems and buckets of missed opportunities. I think it will age fairly well in greater Trek universe, but will ultimately be concluded to have been a victim of being underfunded from the get go, causing an abbreviated episode count and a pernicious sense of cheapness to pervade most of the scenes, which put a spotlight on the writing problems.

    Those of us that liked it pointed out it's season 1 of a Star Trek show, which means of course it's not 100% there yet. It'll be one or two seasons until it "grows the beard."

    That's by the old rules. You think they'll let it have that many? without trying to just paste beards on everyone and say LOOK WE'RE MATURE NOW ALSO EVERYTHING IS IN PERIL AGAIN

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  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    edited September 15
    If you think the good parts of Kurtzman Trek outweigh the bad enough for you to keep watching, I'm not going to argue with you. But all three seasons we have gotten have the exact same problems. They're not going to fix them because they think the seasons they're making don't have problems. 90s Trek learned and grew because they were being made with a different philosophy.

    Coinage on
    t1iylq0d7o1p.png
    shrykeJacobkoshBloodySlothpainfulPleasance
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    That trailer makes it pretty clear the next seasons going to have the problem again, too, struggling to one up the last one. Everything is a crisis of such incomprehensible scale that eventually none of it really is anymore.

    Commander ZoomJacobkoshautono-wally, erotibot300
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    From one of the Facebook groups:
    l47fwrkk6muu.jpg


    ShadowenShadowhope
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Coinage wrote: »
    If you think the good parts of Kurtzman Trek outweigh the bad enough for you to keep watching, I'm not going to argue with you. But all three seasons we have gotten have the exact same problems. They're not going to fix them because they think the seasons they're making don't have problems. 90s Trek learned and grew because they were being made with a different philosophy.

    Well I'm not talking specifically Discovery, I haven't been interested enough to watch any episodes of that one. I do think Picard is at its heart a good show, though, and I think additional seasons will mature it. And if not, I still enjoy seeing PatStew and Jeri Ryan and (soon!) Whoopi Goldberg portraying characters I know and love.

    Dark_Side
  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I love how even people new to the show not hate watching it with others, not feeding on negative discourse week by week, etc, have all the same complaints months later lol. Clearly shows that Picard had some major problems

    I think across the board, even the most ardent Picard super fans have admitted the show had a litany of problems and buckets of missed opportunities. I think it will age fairly well in greater Trek universe, but will ultimately be concluded to have been a victim of being underfunded from the get go, causing an abbreviated episode count and a pernicious sense of cheapness to pervade most of the scenes, which put a spotlight on the writing problems.

    Having just recently watched Picard I don't think the episode count was really a problem so much as that the central conflict didn't make a whole ton of sense

    I'd much rather have had it deal more thoroughly with the Federation and Romulans trying to figure out what to do after the collapse of the Romulan Empire

    uH3IcEi.png
    Hahnsoo1shrykeCommander ZoomRichyCasualpainfulPleasance
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Coinage wrote: »
    If you think the good parts of Kurtzman Trek outweigh the bad enough for you to keep watching, I'm not going to argue with you. But all three seasons we have gotten have the exact same problems. They're not going to fix them because they think the seasons they're making don't have problems. 90s Trek learned and grew because they were being made with a different philosophy.

    Well I'm not talking specifically Discovery, I haven't been interested enough to watch any episodes of that one. I do think Picard is at its heart a good show, though, and I think additional seasons will mature it. And if not, I still enjoy seeing PatStew and Jeri Ryan and (soon!) Whoopi Goldberg portraying characters I know and love.

    The problem with Picard in the end is everything to do with the kind of show it's trying to be though imo. Unless they learn to, like, dial it back a few notches I don't think it's gonna fix itself.

    Commander ZoomGnome-InterruptuspainfulPleasanceShadowhope
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited September 15
    GO GO GO RUSH RUSH RUSH SOMETHING BIG AND SHOCKING WILL HAPPEN IN EVERY EPISODE* ENJOY THE CONSTANT SPECTACLE OH GOD PLEASE DON'T CHANGE THE CHANNEL OR UNSUBSCRIBE PLEASE PLEEEEEASE

    * it will not actually be big or shocking, or even very memorable, because you don't really know any of these people and all of the stars have contracts that mean they'll be back somehow

    Commander Zoom on
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    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    JacobkoshRichypainfulPleasance
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I love how even people new to the show not hate watching it with others, not feeding on negative discourse week by week, etc, have all the same complaints months later lol. Clearly shows that Picard had some major problems

    I think across the board, even the most ardent Picard super fans have admitted the show had a litany of problems and buckets of missed opportunities. I think it will age fairly well in greater Trek universe, but will ultimately be concluded to have been a victim of being underfunded from the get go, causing an abbreviated episode count and a pernicious sense of cheapness to pervade most of the scenes, which put a spotlight on the writing problems.

    Having just recently watched Picard I don't think the episode count was really a problem so much as that the central conflict didn't make a whole ton of sense

    I'd much rather have had it deal more thoroughly with the Federation and Romulans trying to figure out what to do after the collapse of the Romulan Empire

    It goes in with two ideas and just kinda smushes them together in a really unsatisfying way that really doesn't deal well with either one.

    Hahnsoo1MsAnthropyJacobkoshMonwynCasual
  • CroakerBCCroakerBC TorontoRegistered User regular
    GO GO GO RUSH RUSH RUSH SOMETHING BIG AND SHOCKING WILL HAPPEN IN EVERY EPISODE* ENJOY THE CONSTANT SPECTACLE OH GOD PLEASE DON'T CHANGE THE CHANNEL OR UNSUBSCRIBE PLEASE PLEEEEEASE

    * it will not actually be big or shocking, or even very memorable, because you don't really know any of these people and all of the stars have contracts that mean they'll be back somehow

    You might make that argument for Disco, but not Picard. Come on. It was, mostly, a very contemplative season in tone. The those last two episodes do ramp it up to eleven.

    Anecdotally, Picard is divisive in our house; I think the earlier episodes are lo-fi character studies and draw you into the world, and the Mrs thinks they were unconscionably dull and kept asking when things would happen.

    We both enjoy Disco, but I suspect we enjoy different parts of it. Except Tilly, who we both agree is fab.

    Depends on the overall viewership though, doesn’t it. If people like it enough to pay for it, it’s what we’re getting. Nobody’s making 24-episode soap drama like B5 or DS9 any more, or multi-episode serials like Baker-era Doctor Who, because what people want and how they consume media has changed, and the industry has had to adapt or die.

    If the ratings for Picard and Disco were crap, I wouldn’t expect them to be spinning up new seasons - but they are, so *somewhere* is an audience who loves them, and even as a cranky grognard, that pleases me. Your trek is not my trek. Their trek is not my trek. That’s cool. IDIC.

    Cambiata
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited September 15
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Coinage wrote: »
    If you think the good parts of Kurtzman Trek outweigh the bad enough for you to keep watching, I'm not going to argue with you. But all three seasons we have gotten have the exact same problems. They're not going to fix them because they think the seasons they're making don't have problems. 90s Trek learned and grew because they were being made with a different philosophy.

    Well I'm not talking specifically Discovery, I haven't been interested enough to watch any episodes of that one. I do think Picard is at its heart a good show, though, and I think additional seasons will mature it. And if not, I still enjoy seeing PatStew and Jeri Ryan and (soon!) Whoopi Goldberg portraying characters I know and love.

    The problem with Picard in the end is everything to do with the kind of show it's trying to be though imo. Unless they learn to, like, dial it back a few notches I don't think it's gonna fix itself.

    Remember that most of Picard was pretty dialed back, it didn't go off the rails until like the last three episodes.

    Cambiata on
    CroakerBC
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Coinage wrote: »
    If you think the good parts of Kurtzman Trek outweigh the bad enough for you to keep watching, I'm not going to argue with you. But all three seasons we have gotten have the exact same problems. They're not going to fix them because they think the seasons they're making don't have problems. 90s Trek learned and grew because they were being made with a different philosophy.

    Well I'm not talking specifically Discovery, I haven't been interested enough to watch any episodes of that one. I do think Picard is at its heart a good show, though, and I think additional seasons will mature it. And if not, I still enjoy seeing PatStew and Jeri Ryan and (soon!) Whoopi Goldberg portraying characters I know and love.

    The problem with Picard in the end is everything to do with the kind of show it's trying to be though imo. Unless they learn to, like, dial it back a few notches I don't think it's gonna fix itself.

    Remember that most of Picard was pretty dialed back, it didn't go off the rails until like the last three episodes.

    Only kinda. Right from the start (or the second episode maybe, they all bleed together) with the romulan ... whatever organization they are already trying to one up every previous Star Trek. It's also got this whole action scene stuff right from the word go to try and make sure we don't get bored or something because it doesn't trust us to actually be interested in the plot or characters otherwise. The show in the end had no interest in telling smaller stories or not trying to relax imo.

    Like, it's got:
    doctor lady murdering that guy in cold blood at the halfway point because it's gotta kick the table over and make you wanna come back next week
    only half way through the show.

    Shit goes off the rails in the last few episodes in an even bigger way but it's the style of the show from the start.

    Commander ZoomMsAnthropyPailryder
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    CroakerBC wrote: »
    GO GO GO RUSH RUSH RUSH SOMETHING BIG AND SHOCKING WILL HAPPEN IN EVERY EPISODE* ENJOY THE CONSTANT SPECTACLE OH GOD PLEASE DON'T CHANGE THE CHANNEL OR UNSUBSCRIBE PLEASE PLEEEEEASE

    * it will not actually be big or shocking, or even very memorable, because you don't really know any of these people and all of the stars have contracts that mean they'll be back somehow

    You might make that argument for Disco, but not Picard. Come on. It was, mostly, a very contemplative season in tone. The those last two episodes do ramp it up to eleven.

    Anecdotally, Picard is divisive in our house; I think the earlier episodes are lo-fi character studies and draw you into the world, and the Mrs thinks they were unconscionably dull and kept asking when things would happen.

    We both enjoy Disco, but I suspect we enjoy different parts of it. Except Tilly, who we both agree is fab.

    Depends on the overall viewership though, doesn’t it. If people like it enough to pay for it, it’s what we’re getting. Nobody’s making 24-episode soap drama like B5 or DS9 any more, or multi-episode serials like Baker-era Doctor Who, because what people want and how they consume media has changed, and the industry has had to adapt or die.

    If the ratings for Picard and Disco were crap, I wouldn’t expect them to be spinning up new seasons - but they are, so *somewhere* is an audience who loves them, and even as a cranky grognard, that pleases me. Your trek is not my trek. Their trek is not my trek. That’s cool. IDIC.

    They actually are. They just aren't doing it on streaming services.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    CroakerBC wrote: »
    GO GO GO RUSH RUSH RUSH SOMETHING BIG AND SHOCKING WILL HAPPEN IN EVERY EPISODE* ENJOY THE CONSTANT SPECTACLE OH GOD PLEASE DON'T CHANGE THE CHANNEL OR UNSUBSCRIBE PLEASE PLEEEEEASE

    * it will not actually be big or shocking, or even very memorable, because you don't really know any of these people and all of the stars have contracts that mean they'll be back somehow

    You might make that argument for Disco, but not Picard. Come on. It was, mostly, a very contemplative season in tone. The those last two episodes do ramp it up to eleven.

    Yes, and that IMO is the problem. A show with great promise, that was sold on that promise, abruptly and jarringly changes tone and pace in the middle (or last third) and goes all in on the things that it had been mostly avoiding up to that point. To its great detriment, still IMO, and my great and enduring disappointment.

    Anecdotally, Picard is divisive in our house; I think the earlier episodes are lo-fi character studies and draw you into the world, and the Mrs thinks they were unconscionably dull and kept asking when things would happen.

    We both enjoy Disco, but I suspect we enjoy different parts of it. Except Tilly, who we both agree is fab.

    Depends on the overall viewership though, doesn’t it. If people like it enough to pay for it, it’s what we’re getting. Nobody’s making 24-episode soap drama like B5 or DS9 any more, or multi-episode serials like Baker-era Doctor Who, because what people want and how they consume media has changed, and the industry has had to adapt or die.

    If the ratings for Picard and Disco were crap, I wouldn’t expect them to be spinning up new seasons - but they are, so *somewhere* is an audience who loves them, and even as a cranky grognard, that pleases me. Your trek is not my trek. Their trek is not my trek. That’s cool. IDIC.

    And that is why I tend to doubt, or even despair, that I will see anything I like get made, or succeed, under the current access model / media zeitgeist / fiscal realities etc etc. Forget talk of certain works (e.g. Blazing Saddles) not being able to be made today because of changing values or "politically incorrect" humor; this is the real reason - money, pure and simple.

    Maybe Strange New Worlds will be different; maybe it will avoid the pitfalls and demands we've seen the other shows succumb to. But then, I thought (and hoped) the same of Picard once.


    "Is it possible that we two, you and I, have grown so old and so inflexible that we have outlived our usefulness? Would that constitute... a joke?"

    Nimoy was 60 when he spoke those lines in The Undiscovered Country. Ten years before, when the franchise first grappled with age and mortality, when Kirk had a birthday party that McCoy bitterly compared to a funeral, he and Shatner were both 50... the same age I am now.

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited September 15
    Expanse and Orville and Game of Thrones Seasons 1-6 prove that people like contemplative, character driven genre shows

    I feel like the non stop attempts at turning literally everything into some percentage of a Transformers movie (film, tv, and games) are just ruining the chance of having a zealous and steady audience in their futile attempts to get 40 million fans because haha phasers go pew

    You don't even need a massive budget to have a genre show that people are still watching 30 years from now

    override367 on
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  • evilmrhenryevilmrhenry Registered User regular
    Expanse and Orville and Game of Thrones Seasons 1-6 prove that people like contemplative, character driven genre shows

    I feel like the non stop attempts at turning literally everything into some percentage of a Transformers movie (film, tv, and games) are just ruining the chance of having a zealous and steady audience in their futile attempts to get 40 million fans because haha phasers go pew

    You don't even need a massive budget to have a genre show that people are still watching 30 years from now

    Not a massive budget, but Star Trek does demand cast, sets, and special effects, which does require the viewership numbers to justify that investment. That being said, it looks like Picard costs $8-$9 million/episode, while Enterprise cost $1.7 million/episode. ($2.5 million adjusted for inflation. DS9 and TNG are similar.) Orville cost $7 million/episode, and Discovery cost $8 million/episode. That disconnect in budget feels meaningful, but I'm not sure what it means. It could mean that producing significantly cheaper shows is possible, or it could mean that producing for razor-sharp 1080p displays is more expensive, or it could mean that producing more episodes allows you to defray set and model design costs over more episodes.

    Commander Zoom
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited September 15
    HD is part of the problem. Sets/props/costumes/makeup/CGI all have to be done to an insanely stringent standard now, massively inflating costs for a very dubious benefit. This is part of the reason I find the quest for ever-more Ks to be really shortsighted and dumb.

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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I know what you mean when you say there's a cost demand for CG/makeup/sets, and it is true. Yet bitterly ironic when some of the best Trek out there is little more than 2 people in a room talking to each other.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    I know what you mean when you say there's a cost demand for CG/makeup/sets, and it is true. Yet bitterly ironic when some of the best Trek out there is little more than 2 people in a room talking to each other.

    and sometimes 3-5 lights.

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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Finished Picard last night. Could've been better, could've been worse, but I liked how it placed talking and giving agency and choices above shooty bang bang at the end. It often felt like something that wasn't Star Trek at all, with a bickering and broken crew, but I dunno if I'd have enjoyed something that was hammering my nostalgia button like a whack a mole.

    I think I preferred it to the constant emotional incontinence of Discovery. I'm also watching Voyager right now on maybe my third attempt to get through it and claim my long service badge, and it's better than that. Although I seem to have hit a reasonable patch of episodes at the end of season 2.

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