Star Trek: Lower Decks trailer is out. SPOILERS in effect!

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    LD Season 2 Speculation:
    Boimler comes back to the Cerritos—as the Lower Decks' middle management. That brings everyone back together without a reset, opens a whole new field of workplace jokes, and allows further development for Boimler and Mariner.

    My guess is that Riker, and the other TNG-era alums, will show up as guest stars. Most of the TNG cast has done voice work, and I'd wager they'd love being able to come back with a minimum time commitment. Dorn would probably jump at the chance to play Captain Worf without hours of makeup.
    For Season 2 ST:LDS speculation
    https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/star-trek-lower-decks-season-1-finale-riker-troi-1234798405/
    They are confirming that there's gonna be more Riker.

    "Let’s start with the very end of the season: Will the Titan be a main location next season now that Boimler has transferred to that ship?
    Yep. We’ll see the Titan next season because Boimler is off the Cerritos, and we’ll be seeing Capt. Riker again as well. Boimler has been talking about moving on to bigger and better all first season, and now we’re going to see what happens when he gets what he wants."
    I wonder if he'll run into Ashley Judd and her mom, Rebecca Romjin...

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  • AeolusdallasAeolusdallas Registered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    Nooooooo, Shax! :(

    Both Beta III (Landru!) and the Pakleds made me laugh pretty hard. "Oh no... Another Enterprise!"

    That USS Titan looks pretty awesome.
    Seeing more of that next season would go a long way to fixing my main complaint from this season: not enough ship types.
    We got more Fed Ship types in this than several seasons of TNG put together

    Commander ZoomHevachSneaksoverride367
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    But TNG gave us such gems as the Miranda-without-a-rollbar-class. And the Miranda-with-guns-class. And the Miranda-with-different-guns-class. And the Four-markers-and-a-frisbee-class.

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  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    So now that LD has wrapped up, you all feel like it's good enough to justify buying a month of CBS streaming?

    The season finale was the best Star Trek episode since 1999.

    Some of the preceding episodes briefly also were able to hold that claim.



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  • CraigopogoCraigopogo Registered User regular
    I thought the first couple episodes of Lower Decks were terrible, but man it really improved over the season. The last few were great.

  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    So now that LD has wrapped up, you all feel like it's good enough to justify buying a month of CBS streaming?

    The season finale was the best Star Trek episode since 1999.

    Some of the preceding episodes briefly also were able to hold that claim.

    I think episode one is the weakest and closest to the fear of a Rick and morty trek and from 2 on it steadily gets better. 9 and 10 really use the format of an animated Star Trek to its full potential.

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  • hlprmnkyhlprmnky Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    Makes sense, really, going from the star player of the USS Detroit Lions to a ship where most of the crew actually outshines him is going to leave a sour taste on the boots.
    I don’t have anything concrete to add, I just want to celebrate this sentence you wrote because it’s really fucking good. Thank you for crafting it for us to enjoy.

    _
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  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    IM *correct* O:
    The cast is great, the production design is terrible, the plots are meh-bad-good.

    The production design was revolutionary for the period and medium. But the state of production design in 1960s TV was absolutely godawful.

    fuck gendered marketing
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Elldren wrote: »
    IM *correct* O:
    The cast is great, the production design is terrible, the plots are meh-bad-good.

    The production design was revolutionary for the period and medium. But the state of production design in 1960s TV was absolutely godawful.

    Just to be clear, I'm talking about the three newest movies there (in order).

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited October 10
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    I imagine Season 2 Boimler going to end up like this:
    ixwh4jl68bj7.jpeg
    "After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."

    Commander Zoom on
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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    But TNG gave us such gems as the Miranda-without-a-rollbar-class. And the Miranda-with-guns-class. And the Miranda-with-different-guns-class. And the Four-markers-and-a-frisbee-class.

    Hey the four markers class is my favourite!!

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular

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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    LD is great so far, I'm at episode 6.

    My girlfriend also loves it, and she usually doesn't care about star trek

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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited October 10
    LD is great so far, I'm at episode 6.

    My girlfriend also loves it, and she usually doesn't care about star trek

    It's been pretty good for me too, but I was hoping the manic vibe and yelling would tone down and it hasn't. Also, I'm not warming up to Mariner at all, the mary sue vibes of a character that's incredible at everything but just wants to slum with the ensigns keeps pulling me out of each episode. Boimler is kind of obnoxious too, but just in the complete opposite way.

    Dark_Side on
  • StrikorStrikor Calibrations? Calibrations! Registered User regular
    My main wish for LD S2 is to be able to watch it (legally) anywhere but that awful CBS app. We still haven't been able to watch episode 9 because the app loads it with no sound (how?) in addition to needing to reinstall it every time we want to watch something on it.

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  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    I'd like to watch the first series tbh but no-one's picked it up here yet :(

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  • TurksonTurkson Near the mountains of ColoradoRegistered User regular
    So, Lower Decks has had the best first season of any Trek show. And might have the best cold openings I've ever seen.

    oh h*ck
    override367
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Strikor wrote: »
    My main wish for LD S2 is to be able to watch it (legally) anywhere but that awful CBS app. We still haven't been able to watch episode 9 because the app loads it with no sound (how?) in addition to needing to reinstall it every time we want to watch something on it.

    you're in luck, CBS all access is being deprecated for Paramount's new streaming service.
    I'm sure the app will suck still!

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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Strikor wrote: »
    My main wish for LD S2 is to be able to watch it (legally) anywhere but that awful CBS app. We still haven't been able to watch episode 9 because the app loads it with no sound (how?) in addition to needing to reinstall it every time we want to watch something on it.

    you're in luck, CBS all access is being deprecated for Paramount's new streaming service.
    I'm sure the app will suck still!

    Yes. "luck"

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    A rose by any other name still doesn't properly advance to the next episode if you stop between them.

  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Look, clearly the app is a prime directive test. If you can't make it manage to work, they don't want to interfere with your culture. Honestly it's much better than if you just happened to not only to stumble on enough dilithium to make an warp capable civilization, but that you are able to apply it on the small scale and not just to a single ICBM ... er ship.

  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    LD is great so far, I'm at episode 6.

    My girlfriend also loves it, and she usually doesn't care about star trek

    It's been pretty good for me too, but I was hoping the manic vibe and yelling would tone down and it hasn't. Also, I'm not warming up to Mariner at all, the mary sue vibes of a character that's incredible at everything but just wants to slum with the ensigns keeps pulling me out of each episode. Boimler is kind of obnoxious too, but just in the complete opposite way.

    Shes not really a Mary Sue though?
    She says right at the start shes been on five ships. Shes seen some shit and as a result become disillusioned with Starfleet and rank and just does what she can to help people

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    It's Star Fleet. If you notice during the crises on the show, everyone is hyper- competent.

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited October 11
    Mariner isn't a mary sue, she's a gifted officer with a lot of experience who hangs out with rookies

    My guess is that she's terrified of success, if she ended up on The Enterprise she would be one gifted officer among many equally gifted officer, instead of the where she is now, being a big fish in a small pond

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    She isn't hanging out with rookies entirely by choice. She did something on her last ship and got busted back down to ensign and dumped on a crappy post. You don't get to still hang out with the department heads after that.

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  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    yes...
    it sounded like she would have had worse but her mom (captain) and dad (admiral) pulled some strings to give her this chance

    CambiataElldren
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I just want to add that I love that for the most part, no matter how goofy someone is in off-duty, when it comes to serious trouble on the ship, everyone steps up as one would expect from a Star-Fleet crew. The comedy in those moments is not about how a LD regular sucks at their job, they all are clearly fantastic at what they do. Again, as expected from graduates of Star Fleet academy. I actually wish that previous Star Trek shows (like Voyager) understood this concept better.

    Granted,
    There are moments when non-regulars seem to suck at their jobs, like that guy who fucked up the shields that one episode, but at least the regulars don't need a tricorder to identify feces ala Chief Engineer Belanna Torres.

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited October 11
    The guy who fucked up the shields was doing fine as part of the team. Then he said, "Go to the party, I'll finish all our work myself," and he promptly fucked up so bad he ended up blowing up a completely different ship.

    I don't think incompetence was the core of his problem. He switches gears back and forth between simpering appeasement and "I'll burn us all to ashes before I take responsibility." With each one causing it's own problems leading to a bout of the other to try to regain control.

    Hevach on
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited October 11
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    LD is great so far, I'm at episode 6.

    My girlfriend also loves it, and she usually doesn't care about star trek

    It's been pretty good for me too, but I was hoping the manic vibe and yelling would tone down and it hasn't. Also, I'm not warming up to Mariner at all, the mary sue vibes of a character that's incredible at everything but just wants to slum with the ensigns keeps pulling me out of each episode. Boimler is kind of obnoxious too, but just in the complete opposite way.

    Shes not really a Mary Sue though?
    She says right at the start shes been on five ships. Shes seen some shit and as a result become disillusioned with Starfleet and rank and just does what she can to help people

    She literally cannot fail. Even when she does fail, it's because she somehow pre-planned it to fail on purpose, which has happened on multiple episodes now. It's kind of ridiculous.

    Dark_Side on
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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    LD is great so far, I'm at episode 6.

    My girlfriend also loves it, and she usually doesn't care about star trek

    It's been pretty good for me too, but I was hoping the manic vibe and yelling would tone down and it hasn't. Also, I'm not warming up to Mariner at all, the mary sue vibes of a character that's incredible at everything but just wants to slum with the ensigns keeps pulling me out of each episode. Boimler is kind of obnoxious too, but just in the complete opposite way.

    Shes not really a Mary Sue though?
    She says right at the start shes been on five ships. Shes seen some shit and as a result become disillusioned with Starfleet and rank and just does what she can to help people

    She literally cannot fail. Even when she does fail, it's because she somehow pre-planned it to fail on purpose, which has happened on multiple episodes now. It's kind of ridiculous.
    I don’t know what you expect from being the protagonist of a TV show?

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  • GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    Yep... this feels about right.

    eurh1uycv1z2.png

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    TV show protagonists fail sometimes. For example, Archer is a hypercompetent spy and simultaneously a massive fuckup.

    I agree that Mariner's hypercompetence is very tiresome, like, the two episodes where she appeared to fuck up were literally just her deliberately fucking up, which is, like... c'mon. Getting kicked off ships for being a maverick doesn't count as a character flaw.

    Commander ZoomDark_Side
  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    LD is great so far, I'm at episode 6.

    My girlfriend also loves it, and she usually doesn't care about star trek

    It's been pretty good for me too, but I was hoping the manic vibe and yelling would tone down and it hasn't. Also, I'm not warming up to Mariner at all, the mary sue vibes of a character that's incredible at everything but just wants to slum with the ensigns keeps pulling me out of each episode. Boimler is kind of obnoxious too, but just in the complete opposite way.

    Shes not really a Mary Sue though?
    She says right at the start shes been on five ships. Shes seen some shit and as a result become disillusioned with Starfleet and rank and just does what she can to help people

    She literally cannot fail. Even when she does fail, it's because she somehow pre-planned it to fail on purpose, which has happened on multiple episodes now. It's kind of ridiculous.

    I mean, it's one take on it. It completely ignores all her very real failings. She's "seen some shit" and learned from it. She has gained the experience along with some natural competence to learn how to deal with situations, and she knows that sometimes her "just get things done" rules ... well get things done. What she hasn't internalized, is WHY those rules and regulations are in place and when it actually pays to follow vs break them. This is why she keeps herself down with the lower deck crew. She is in many ways the inverse of Boimler. Boimler being too "By the book", which pays off in certain circumstances but leaves him unprepared for the real world. Based on what we're seeing, Mariner should CLEARLY be a Lt or even Lt Cmdr already (probably just Lt ). The closest analog in regular trek is probably Tom Paris early years.

    Presumably, if she can learn to work within the rules when it matters, she will head down a early years Kira or Riker path. There are so many examples of "Mariner-esque" characters throughout Trek who have clear and obvious faults. Heck, I've worked with and/or been a Mariner. On the ball on the subject matter/solving problems, but without regards for why things need to be done a certain way. Heck, there was an entire episode devoted to her failings.

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    edited October 11
    I don't think I've seen the show really justify any of the rules or regulations she breaks though? Her mom just gets mad that she broke them

    e: part of the problem is Mariner looks the same age as the other three characters and at one point was implied to be their age, when evidently she should be at least 8-10 years older rather than a spunky teenager. This is a limitation of the art style mostly

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    edited October 11
    like, the thing with the Ferengi in the second(?) episode wouldn't bother me if they'd just run into a random Ferengi conman, and Mariner decided on-the-fly to take a dive to make Boimler feel better. But the reveal that she's actually old friends with the Ferengi and set up this elaborate deception on the fly, because she has that many friends all over the galaxy? That was kind of annoying

    As I said before, I think her character doesn't fit with the "lower decks normal crewpeople hours" thing. To use a Venture Bros (RIP) analogy, the other three characters feel like 21 and 24 kind of people, whereas Mariner is the Brock Samson of Starfleet.

    Brock Samson, of course, is a good example of a hypercompetent character who is also deeply flawed. He started out as this psychotic murdermachine who hated his assigned post, and gradually developed into a less-psychotic, more fatherly murdermachine who even kinda liked his shitty mission to protect Venture. But Mariner starts out as Season 6 Brock Samson, the chill hyperbadass, and that feels kind of unearned writing-wise

    Dongs Galore on
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  • GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    e: part of the problem is Mariner looks the same age as the other three characters and at one point was implied to be their age, when evidently she should be at least 8-10 years older rather than a spunky teenager. This is a limitation of the art style mostly

    She should definitely be older. Still the Mary Sue label doesn't stick simply because Sues are neither complicated nor layered. They're very straightforward fanfic self-inserts meant to have a close connection to all the important characters, ride in and save the day and receive nothing but praise and adulation while often boasting distinct physical characteristics. They're power fantasies for fans with limited imaginations.
    As early as episode 3, Ransom knocks her down a peg while Boimler saves the day and in 8 she has barely any role to play whatsoever in any of the trial/party events or flashbacks (for all her knowledge, she was as much in the dark as the rest of the ensigns and isn't even the one who saves them from the eels) while in 9 she has to work through some major psychological issues and by 10 she flat out admits her hazing was dangerous, has her familial connections thrown in her face, is ultimately unable to save the ship even when finally rising to the occasion and is ultimately abandoned by the little brother she constantly belittled.

    And if that's how lax your standards are for writing a character off as a Sue then frankly Kirk fits the bill better than Mariner.

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    edited October 11
    Glyph wrote: »
    e: part of the problem is Mariner looks the same age as the other three characters and at one point was implied to be their age, when evidently she should be at least 8-10 years older rather than a spunky teenager. This is a limitation of the art style mostly

    She should definitely be older. Still the Mary Sue label doesn't stick simply because Sues are neither complicated nor layered. They're very straightforward fanfic self-inserts meant to have a close connection to all the important characters, ride in and save the day and receive nothing but praise and adulation while often boasting distinct physical characteristics. They're power fantasies for fans with limited imaginations.
    As early as episode 3, Ransom knocks her down a peg while Boimler saves the day and in 8 she has barely any role to play whatsoever in any of the trial/party events or flashbacks (for all her knowledge, she was as much in the dark as the rest of the ensigns and isn't even the one who saves them from the eels) while in 9 she has to work through some major psychological issues and by 10 she flat out admits her hazing was dangerous, has her familial connections thrown in her face, is ultimately unable to save the ship even when finally rising to the occasion and is ultimately abandoned by the little brother she constantly belittled.

    And if that's how lax your standards are for writing a character off as a Sue then frankly Kirk fits the bill better than Mariner.

    quick check: are we spoilering all episodes still?
    In episode 3, I don't think Ransom really knocked her down a peg. Ransom is the one who fucks up at the start and gets humiliatingly defeated while Mariner rolls her eyes at him. Mariner humiliates him again by making him admit he has no battle scars. We have no reason to believe Mariner wouldn't also have won the arena fight just as easily as Ransom does, because we've seen that Mariner is at least as good at fighting as Ransom is. The only reason Ransom insists on taking the fight isn't even that he believes she can't win - it's because, as senior officer, the rules dictate that he has to be the one to do it. The fact that she kind of wants to bang him after watching him fight doesn't prove him right about anything.

    Mariner only ever seems to be "in the wrong" because the rules arbitrarily dictate that her course of action is wrong, even though hers would otherwise work just as well or better. In the last episode, her mother even says something to the effect of "FIX THIS BY BREAKING THE RULES," as if she knows Mariner's course of action will always be right according to any objective standard, and wrong only according to some Starfleet technicality.

    In 9 her major psychological flaws boiled down to (paraphrase) "if you were really badass you'd be a proper officer" - which she shows in episode 10 she is actually perfectly capable of being just to get the Sacramento post that she wants - and frankly I don't consider "so badass that she has to tone down how badass she is in order to get along" to be much of a character flaw.

    In 10 she does finally get the fact that she's mommy's girl thrown in her face, which is good, but again she mostly just seems kind of embarrassed. She is also the one tasked with saving the ship, and her plan works. She is only on the verge of defeat due to overwhelming odds (a Kobayashi Maru situation) and she doesn't even betray any self-doubt or uncertainty at that moment - she just orders the crew to the escape pods without hesitating before her good buddy Riker zooms in to save the day. Boimler finally moving on was satisfying, but he only beat her because she decided not to leave the Cerritos, not because she failed at anything. And she's okay with being on the Cerritos because her mom admits she's right. That was character development on Boimler's part - getting over being dominated by Mariner - not really on her part, imo.

    Yeah, she doesn't automatically win every fight she's in, but I can't think of any situation where she's actually been wrong. She's only ever "in the wrong" because she broke regulations to do the right thing.

    e: Kirk is a pretty shallow character but he's also the Captain of the ship, i.e. who the bridge crew are supposed to be lampooning (specifically Ransom), not the lower decks people

    Dongs Galore on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    A Mary Sue is an authorial wish-fulfilliment character. Like, the term began with a woman named Mary Sue Whatever who literally wrote a story with an Ensign Mary Sue who kissed all the cute boys on the ship and was super great and everyone loved her, because the author wants to smooch all the cute people on the ship and have everyone love them. The term has nothing to do with "power levels" or any of that other video game nonsense.

    Mariner is wildly overqualified for her nothing job, and has saved the ship a couple of times, but like...so? Who cares? If she were a lieutenant or lieutenant commander (which we've already learned she probably could have been by now if it weren't for her own limitations) she'd just be doing regular Star Trek protagonist shit. Scotty, Kirk, Spock, Geordi, Data, Paris, Seven, or Torres save the ship every week. But she's not at their level, specifically because she's a giant dumpster fire of neuroses and reckless, impulsive behavior, and has demonstrated repeated difficulty in working with teams. She acknowledges herself that the only reason she even still has a job is that her mother is protecting her. She's a complicated character who has a journey ahead of her no less than Boimler or the others.

    What I would say is that the show could stand to give Boimler a few more wins, or show us why the "rules" exist more often. But that's an issue with the overall structure of the story, not with Mariner being a "bad character."

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  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    Spoilers are in effect until some time after the rest of the world gets the show. You can say things like "I liked episode 7" or talk about non-specifics like characters' personalities or whatever, but as soon as you dive into the nitty-gritty of things that happen, please wrap that up.

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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I dunno, she really is kind of a Mary Sue, or at least has a lot of the same traits. And it was really starting to drag the first few episodes. But now, she's kind of a well written one, if that makes sense. They've shown enough of her neurosis now anyways. But yeah, stuff like the end of episode 2 is really... ehh.

    Final episode spoilers:
    Though I have to say... while I personally have zero problem with it, the fact that she is of course best besties with Will Riker... well I can't really deny that as a bullet point for somebody who thinks she is a Mary Sue.

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