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[Police Brutality] Has Caused Ongoing National Protests

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  • DrovekDrovek Registered User regular
    I guess the cops felt like they had to finish what the Proud Boys started and couldn't handle.

    Nah, they ran to get into uniform.

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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Proud Boys are keyboard kommandos type of though guys.

    The "I bench press 200 pounds and do MMA, so if the antifa Fascists want to start something they better watch out" type.

    Training and talking constantly about how though they are while suspiciously never being anywhere close to the grubby real world street fights they talk fantasies about.

    Meanwhile going up against them are the kind of people that have had their ass kicked for real by cops, thugs and various other lowlifes for years. When you are(often) a despised minority(black, Gay poor or trans) its not that you get good at fighting, its that you often know what a real fight is like.

    That and the Proud Boys trying to start a fight without having a huge advantage in numbers leads to results like today.

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  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    More local news... https://wwmt.com/news/local/fights-erupt-police-report-multiple-injuries-as-protesters-clash-in-downtown-kalamazoo

    "Protesters swung pieces of wood and turned street signs into bats during one of several physical fights that occurred Saturday as members of various alt-right groups came face-to-face with opposing groups in downtown Kalamazoo.

    Newschannel 3 crews saw police use pepper spray to disperse crowds. The Kalamazoo Department of Public Safety confirmed officers made multiple arrests and several people were injured."


    "Witnesses said it was unclear who initiated the fights.

    The clash lasted less than 10 minutes and Kalamazoo police officers, who were parked nearby, intervened about seven minutes into the violence, according to witnesses."


    No word on who was arrested, but goddamnit it feels like they got what they wanted- big bad antifa boogeymen throwing a violent fit at them while they were 'just there for a march'.

    There's another march going on- been ongoing for the last 20 minutes outside the public safety building, called the "Protect Us, Don't Reject Us" march. https://wwmt.com/news/local/protesters-plan-protect-us-rally-outside-kdps-offices-following-violent-proud-boys-march

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  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Proud Boys are keyboard kommandos type of though guys.

    The "I bench press 200 pounds and do MMA, so if the antifa Fascists want to start something they better watch out" type.

    Claiming to do "MMA" maybe. Training at a martial arts gym is going to make someone interact and train with non-white people. A lot of Black people study boxing, kickboxing, kung fu, and other martial arts. Oddly enough, Asian Americans often study Asian martial arts including the non-Eastern ones like Muay Thai. Also oddly enough, a lot of non-white people study Brazilian Jujitsu. And having to spar means getting your ass kicked, sometimes literally, by all those folks because no one naturally knows how to fight well. A lot of the people with an affinity for martial arts are the ones that got into it as kids due to being bullied and a lot of non-white kids make up that contingent.

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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    That was what the quote was implying. I have encountered a lot of these people and "I do MMA" is the updated version of "I know karate" from the 80s and 90s.

    Nobody that train MMA for any length of time without learning about how important minorities are to the development and creation of the sport. Or bumping into some acting as trainers and sparring partners.

    Also speaking as somebody that did train some wrestling and judo in my youth, I know my greatest weapon is the fact that I jog twice a week.

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  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    https://wwmt.com/news/local/kalamazoo-police-respond-to-saturday-protests-violence

    So the city responded to the incident yesterday:


    "A number of Kalamazoo activists attended the conference. When they asked why the Proud Boys rally was allowed to happen, Thomas said it was the group's right to protest regardless of their beliefs.

    "Law enforcement is put in the position of having to respect everyone’s first amendment rights, whether we agree with them or not," she said."


    Yes, keep tolerating that intolerance. That'll make everything fucking better.

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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    I mean do we really want to play the game where cops get to outwardly decide who gets first amendment rights and they don't even have to pretend anymore?

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    I mean do we really want to play the game where cops get to outwardly decide who gets first amendment rights and they don't even have to pretend anymore?

    Kinda what they're doing anyway considering the disproportionate responses different protests get.

    (And it's not permit vs no permit either; a group of proud boys attacked a permitted DC protest a while back, stole some shit and were escorted to the.. bar by the cops)

  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Central OhioRegistered User regular
    edited August 2020
    Cops don’t ever show up at protests organized by fascists in uniform

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  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    I mean do we really want to play the game where cops get to outwardly decide who gets first amendment rights and they don't even have to pretend anymore?

    They do that already. For reference, ask any person of color.

  • evilmrhenryevilmrhenry Registered User regular
    Results of some quick research:
    The nazis did not have a permit, but they were planning on marching into a public park, which doesn't need a permit.
    In response, the local UCC church got a permit for hosting a prayer vigil in the park during the time the nazis were planning on arriving. (This doesn't block other people from using the public park.)

    There was no permit to deny, so I'm not sure what the town could have legally done to stop them.

  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    Results of some quick research:
    The nazis did not have a permit, but they were planning on marching into a public park, which doesn't need a permit.
    In response, the local UCC church got a permit for hosting a prayer vigil in the park during the time the nazis were planning on arriving. (This doesn't block other people from using the public park.)

    There was no permit to deny, so I'm not sure what the town could have legally done to stop them.

    Apparently tear gas, rubber bullets, batons, and randomly detaining people without probable cause are all perfectly legal options judging by the past few weeks.

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Results of some quick research:
    The nazis did not have a permit, but they were planning on marching into a public park, which doesn't need a permit.
    In response, the local UCC church got a permit for hosting a prayer vigil in the park during the time the nazis were planning on arriving. (This doesn't block other people from using the public park.)

    There was no permit to deny, so I'm not sure what the town could have legally done to stop them.

    Apparently tear gas, rubber bullets, batons, and randomly detaining people without probable cause are all perfectly legal options judging by the past few weeks.

    Only against left-wingers and journalists.

  • DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    Results of some quick research:
    The nazis did not have a permit, but they were planning on marching into a public park, which doesn't need a permit.
    In response, the local UCC church got a permit for hosting a prayer vigil in the park during the time the nazis were planning on arriving. (This doesn't block other people from using the public park.)

    There was no permit to deny, so I'm not sure what the town could have legally done to stop them.

    Most areas have laws declaring that 3 or more people congregating in a disorderly manner is a riot. A permit lends credibility to order. You don't need a permit to deny, you need police to use common sense and enforce the law where it will keep people safe and service law abiding community.

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Results of some quick research:
    The nazis did not have a permit, but they were planning on marching into a public park, which doesn't need a permit.
    In response, the local UCC church got a permit for hosting a prayer vigil in the park during the time the nazis were planning on arriving. (This doesn't block other people from using the public park.)

    There was no permit to deny, so I'm not sure what the town could have legally done to stop them.

    Most areas have laws declaring that 3 or more people congregating in a disorderly manner is a riot. A permit lends credibility to order. You don't need a permit to deny, you need police to use common sense and enforce the law where it will keep people safe and service law abiding community.

    I see a flaw in your expectations.

  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    The butcher's bill came in as far as charges. Remind me again, who had ten protestors getting hauled away on charges, and a reporter getting arrested... but no members of the Nazi group that came walking through town, beating the hell out of everyone else and hosing down homeless people with pepper spray?

    https://wwmt.com/news/local/residents-we-feel-as-if-weve-become-the-target-after-police-failed-to-protect-us

    Police let the assholes rage for seven minutes before suddenly remembering they were there to stop violence from happening, no Nazis arrested- but they're being really generous and dropping all the charges against the protestors! Yeah, guys, good job. Of course, you also let a bunch of Nazis carrying fucking rifles march through downtown attacking people with punches and pepper spray...

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  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Results of some quick research:
    The nazis did not have a permit, but they were planning on marching into a public park, which doesn't need a permit.
    In response, the local UCC church got a permit for hosting a prayer vigil in the park during the time the nazis were planning on arriving. (This doesn't block other people from using the public park.)

    There was no permit to deny, so I'm not sure what the town could have legally done to stop them.

    Apparently tear gas, rubber bullets, batons, and randomly detaining people without probable cause are all perfectly legal options judging by the past few weeks.

    Only against left-wingers and journalists.

    But you repeat yourself :P

  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    The NYPD is going to be immune to layoffs being done to all other NYC employees due to pandemic budget problems. So much for defunding them - it's just another step towards making the whole budget go towards funding the oppressive state apparatus.

    The article says they might "potentially avert" police layoffs, but let's be really honest - there aren't going to be police layoffs.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    The NYPD is going to be immune to layoffs being done to all other NYC employees due to pandemic budget problems. So much for defunding them - it's just another step towards making the whole budget go towards funding the oppressive state apparatus.

    The article says they might "potentially avert" police layoffs, but let's be really honest - there aren't going to be police layoffs.

    There aren't going to be layoffs because the NYPD is bleeding people through outright attrition. It's not that they're immune - it's that they are already losing the people that layoffs would impact.

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  • BlindPsychicBlindPsychic Registered User regular
    It's not necessarily attrition because they're having such a hard time, it's because overtime salary counts towards your retirement, so people who were close are cashing out now while their salaries are abnormally high

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    The NYPD is going to be immune to layoffs being done to all other NYC employees due to pandemic budget problems. So much for defunding them - it's just another step towards making the whole budget go towards funding the oppressive state apparatus.

    The article says they might "potentially avert" police layoffs, but let's be really honest - there aren't going to be police layoffs.

    There aren't going to be layoffs because the NYPD is bleeding people through outright attrition. It's not that they're immune - it's that they are already losing the people that layoffs would impact.
    It brings us to the issue of "hey wait if you have less cops then you shouldn't need as much budget."

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    It's not necessarily attrition because they're having such a hard time, it's because overtime salary counts towards your retirement, so people who were close are cashing out now while their salaries are abnormally high

    I would think NYPD’s pension works the way most do, though, which is that it’s a high-three or high-five. Not *last* three or five. I know SPD’s pension works that way, as do all federal pensions. Your “final pay” for pension purposes is an average your highest consecutive X years (3 for federal, 5 for SPD), regardless of when that falls within your career. I believe military pension is the same...a demotion at end of service doesn’t necessarily reduce your retirement, it hasn’t been based on *actual* final pay rate since like the 80’s.

    Point being there’s no reason for them to quit out if they still need the extra income (their base will still likely be higher than pension) and are willing to do the work. Their pension isn’t going to go down if their income does, if their system works like most do.

  • zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    Results of some quick research:
    The nazis did not have a permit, but they were planning on marching into a public park, which doesn't need a permit.
    In response, the local UCC church got a permit for hosting a prayer vigil in the park during the time the nazis were planning on arriving. (This doesn't block other people from using the public park.)

    There was no permit to deny, so I'm not sure what the town could have legally done to stop them.
    I mean filming them and identifying them is completely legal. “Here are the Nazis who held a march last week.”

    The first amendment cuts both ways.

    zepherin on
  • evilmrhenryevilmrhenry Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    It's not necessarily attrition because they're having such a hard time, it's because overtime salary counts towards your retirement, so people who were close are cashing out now while their salaries are abnormally high

    I would think NYPD’s pension works the way most do, though, which is that it’s a high-three or high-five. Not *last* three or five. I know SPD’s pension works that way, as do all federal pensions. Your “final pay” for pension purposes is an average your highest consecutive X years (3 for federal, 5 for SPD), regardless of when that falls within your career. I believe military pension is the same...a demotion at end of service doesn’t necessarily reduce your retirement, it hasn’t been based on *actual* final pay rate since like the 80’s.

    Point being there’s no reason for them to quit out if they still need the extra income (their base will still likely be higher than pension) and are willing to do the work. Their pension isn’t going to go down if their income does, if their system works like most do.

    On the other hand, this year is probably the most many of the people in the NYPD have earned, and dealing with the plague and the protests is kind of a terrible situation, so I can see a bunch of people realizing their pension is high enough that they can retire now, and they don't really want to work under these conditions.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    mcdermott wrote: »
    It's not necessarily attrition because they're having such a hard time, it's because overtime salary counts towards your retirement, so people who were close are cashing out now while their salaries are abnormally high

    I would think NYPD’s pension works the way most do, though, which is that it’s a high-three or high-five. Not *last* three or five. I know SPD’s pension works that way, as do all federal pensions. Your “final pay” for pension purposes is an average your highest consecutive X years (3 for federal, 5 for SPD), regardless of when that falls within your career. I believe military pension is the same...a demotion at end of service doesn’t necessarily reduce your retirement, it hasn’t been based on *actual* final pay rate since like the 80’s.

    Point being there’s no reason for them to quit out if they still need the extra income (their base will still likely be higher than pension) and are willing to do the work. Their pension isn’t going to go down if their income does, if their system works like most do.

    On the other hand, this year is probably the most many of the people in the NYPD have earned, and dealing with the plague and the protests is kind of a terrible situation, so I can see a bunch of people realizing their pension is high enough that they can retire now, and they don't really want to work under these conditions.

    For sure. Same thing happened in federal employment back in like 2012(?), during the sequestration. People were being forcibly furloughed and losing 20% of their pay, which for retirement eligible people further shrinks the gap between what they’d draw in pension/SS and their full-time pay. For a lot of people that...plus the multi-year freeze in COLA bumps (meaning a frozen high-3) was enough to push them out the door. For many it effectively meant they were effectively making minimum wage. With good benefits. But still a shit hourly wage.

    In the case of the police, I have trouble believing you’re losing a single “good” officer this way. Retirement eligible? All I hear is “been steeped in a rotten culture for twenty years.” Young guy decides they can’t handle the scrutiny and jumps careers? All I hear is “I want power without accountability.” Neither will be missed. We’ve already seen they actual good cops get pushed out forcibly by the system anyway. Which means, by the ACAB principle, every cop that quits by choice is a bad cop. No loss.

    mcdermott on
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Seattle mayor is apparently planning to veto the new budget because she doesn't like the police funding cuts, and apparently Chicago PD has formed a new unit to monitor social media posts?

    So those are a couple fun updates I just heard on the radio that are sure to help

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Seattle mayor is apparently planning to veto the new budget because she doesn't like the police funding cuts, and apparently Chicago PD has formed a new unit to monitor social media posts?

    So those are a couple fun updates I just heard on the radio that are sure to help

    Seattle's mayor has a recall effort out on her for some reason. We'll see if it sticks. Also IIRC I think the (very mild) cuts were passed with a veto proof majority.

  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Mayabird wrote: »
    The NYPD is going to be immune to layoffs being done to all other NYC employees due to pandemic budget problems. So much for defunding them - it's just another step towards making the whole budget go towards funding the oppressive state apparatus.

    The article says they might "potentially avert" police layoffs, but let's be really honest - there aren't going to be police layoffs.

    There aren't going to be layoffs because the NYPD is bleeding people through outright attrition. It's not that they're immune - it's that they are already losing the people that layoffs would impact.
    It brings us to the issue of "hey wait if you have less cops then you shouldn't need as much budget."

    In non specific cop fuckery: usually when a city department has over allocated money for a department based on things like retirement attrition lowering roll call or roll call transitioning towards membership with less seniority (or cheaper labor) the city will never allocate less then the last greatest amount then was needed for a few reasons.

    1.) Politically it limits your enemies from putting out bullshit technicality stories in the press - if your police budget was down in 2020 because of retirements and you didn't plan to hire new members until 2021 so that when 2021 rolls around there's suddenly "Mr McCheese new police budget explodes 20%!" On the front page and you have to find yourself explaining to an ignorant populace why that is.

    2.) In practicality the Police Department won't see a nickel of that money. After a certain point it can be used as discretionary spending and every city councilperson and mayor has ideas for where that money should go. Overtime is usually a separate budget item for all departments so you don't have to go out of your way to leave a balance for that.

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  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Tennessee passed a bill aimed at removed protesters right to vote.
    NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Tennessee protesters will face harsher penalties, including losing the right to vote, for breaking certain laws during demonstrations under a new law enacted by Gov. Bill Lee.
    The Republican quietly signed off on the bill Thursday. Lee has previously conceded there were portions of the bill he “would have done differently” but ultimately agreed to sign it.

    Most notably, the law says those who illegally camp on state property would face a Class E felony, punishable by up to six years in prison, rather than a misdemeanor.

    The American Civil Liberties Union had asked Lee to veto the legislation, saying it attacks free speech rights.

    Changing "Illegally Camping" to a felony to me says they are just going to tell protesters who stick around past sundown that Oops! You're now "camping", that's a felony.

  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    Tennessee passed a bill aimed at removed protesters right to vote.
    NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Tennessee protesters will face harsher penalties, including losing the right to vote, for breaking certain laws during demonstrations under a new law enacted by Gov. Bill Lee.
    The Republican quietly signed off on the bill Thursday. Lee has previously conceded there were portions of the bill he “would have done differently” but ultimately agreed to sign it.

    Most notably, the law says those who illegally camp on state property would face a Class E felony, punishable by up to six years in prison, rather than a misdemeanor.

    The American Civil Liberties Union had asked Lee to veto the legislation, saying it attacks free speech rights.

    Changing "Illegally Camping" to a felony to me says they are just going to tell protesters who stick around past sundown that Oops! You're now "camping", that's a felony.

    So, now the right to peaceably assemble now has a curfew.

    Republicans. The party of constitutional textualism.

    Fuckers.

  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    Tennessee passed a bill aimed at removed protesters right to vote.
    NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Tennessee protesters will face harsher penalties, including losing the right to vote, for breaking certain laws during demonstrations under a new law enacted by Gov. Bill Lee.
    The Republican quietly signed off on the bill Thursday. Lee has previously conceded there were portions of the bill he “would have done differently” but ultimately agreed to sign it.

    Most notably, the law says those who illegally camp on state property would face a Class E felony, punishable by up to six years in prison, rather than a misdemeanor.

    The American Civil Liberties Union had asked Lee to veto the legislation, saying it attacks free speech rights.

    Changing "Illegally Camping" to a felony to me says they are just going to tell protesters who stick around past sundown that Oops! You're now "camping", that's a felony.

    If there are portions you would have done differently, veto the bill you lying liar.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    The disenfranchisement is a nice, uh, bonus.

  • MillMill Registered User regular
    Note to self, bug my democratic congress critters to make use of the 15th when they get a majority to tell republican states to fuck off, they don't get to remove people's vote because of felonies.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    "Being a Democrat is hereby a felony. So you're all under arrest, and you don't ever get to vote again."

    ... oh hey, what are all of you doing in my nightmare?

    Commander Zoom on
  • Man in the MistsMan in the Mists Registered User regular
    Gee, that's not a blatant First Amendment violation at all.

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    Gee, that's not a blatant First Amendment violation at all.

    "Blatant" violations has been a crumbling concept for years and this year is just rapidly accelerating the process. We've got a President who makes daily blatant gaffes that would've ended a political career twenty years ago and that doesn't even include the outright criminal behavior.

    We've basically got a political party right now that is hell-bent on taking every illegal advantage they can get as fast as they can get them and hoping that their opposition will continue to fail to utterly refuse to tolerate these "blatant" violations.

    Ninja Snarl P on
  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    Gov. Lee, you do not want to disenfranchise activist angry at their government. You do not want to limit their options for political speech. Historically, doing that often pushes people closer to the more extreme options to make thier voices heard.

  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Gov. Lee, you do not want to disenfranchise activist angry at their government. You do not want to limit their options for political speech. Historically, doing that often pushes people closer to the more extreme options to make thier voices heard.

    You're assuming that isn't at least a part of the plan. As we saw in Portland, instigating violence so you can respond with overwhelming force was an ongoing strategy.

    It's a plan of three parts.

    Intimidate those that can be frightened off.
    Imprison those that don't resist.
    Beat the shit out of, and imprison those who do.

    Then there's noone to oppose you. They don’t understand this often fails to work (see Iraq, Afganistan, Ireland, etc), but Republicans tend to be simplistic, thuggish thinkers, and not pay attention to history.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    The assumption is that we will never reach a tipping point.
    I really really do not want to see that tested.

  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular


    video from Portland the other day, the Proud Boys shenanigans. More in the thread, this one is especially blatant though. Can't imagine the Portland Police Department doing..nothing during all this if it was the other side trying to tip over an occupied van.

This discussion has been closed.