[D&D Discussion] The real monsters are the friends we made along the way.

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  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    That sounds cool. I don't know that I have anything to add to it. Not sure how you could go about tipping off the players that mom promised her daughter away all those years ago and is trying to renege. I'm sure any fey worth her or his salt will monologue away on that once they are face to face, though.

    I posted my ideas for a Halloween one shot in the SE++ tabletop thread. Any help there would be appreciated.

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  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    Be careful you're not taking the agency away from the other players with your ending there. Plan scenarios (If this then that), but don't make assumptions about how the players are going to respond.



  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited October 25
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

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  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    I hope you told that bard that if something remains stiff for over two hours you’re to seek immediate assistance from your nearest cleric.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

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  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    Depends on the danger level of the adventure I’d say. Not a good idea to send your party after the adult red dragon at level 3 after all. Sometimes the dm needs an overnight basilisk to teach them a lesson. And if they don’t keep watch? They get what they get!

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited October 25
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    It was a spur of the moment end of session cliffhanger. She's gonna be cured by the unusually helpful duergar who own the basilisk first thing next session, the party will be allowed to take a short rest with them, and then get a long rest after one more encounter. Plus I had the bard/cleric and the sorcerer find a few scrolls they can use earlier, so they've got those. In a previous encounter I also included explosive barrels the sorcerer could use his fire bolt cantrip to ignite, effectively turning his fire bolt into an AoE for that battle.

    In my previous campaign I pretty much let players take a long rest whenever they wanted to, no matter how little sense it made for them to go eight hours undetected. This campaign I'm trying to make them squirm a little and subtly encourage buying limited-use items like scrolls and potions just in case they can't get a long rest in.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    It was a spur of the moment end of session cliffhanger. She's gonna be cured by the unusually helpful duergar who own the basilisk first thing next session, the party will be allowed to take a short rest with them, and then get a long rest after one more encounter. Plus I had the bard/cleric and the sorcerer find a few scrolls they can use earlier, so they've got those. In a previous encounter I also included explosive barrels the sorcerer could use his fire bolt cantrip to ignite, effectively turning his fire bolt into an AoE for that battle.

    In my previous campaign I pretty much let players take a long rest whenever they wanted to, no matter how little sense it made for them to go eight hours undetected. This campaign I'm trying to make them squirm a little and subtly encourage buying limited-use items like scrolls and potions just in case they can't get a long rest in.

    Oh okay yeah I'm glad I used question marks, cuz it did feel rather absent of context. Consumables usage outside of, like, heals is I assume generally one of those things that people are universally like that tumblr post about not using items in case you need them later then getting to the final boss and forgetting you even have them because you never really learned how to use half of them

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  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    ironzerg wrote: »
    Be careful you're not taking the agency away from the other players with your ending there. Plan scenarios (If this then that), but don't make assumptions about how the players are going to respond.

    Oh yea, I talked to the Warlock and he is down with anything, so no worries there and I'll make sure the other two hear the Fey's side of the story from them if nothing else. They might also be able to get the story out of the Mother, and they'll hear about the accident from the townsfolk if they ask around about stuff. They'll have plenty of decisions to make. It might be a bit anti-climactic if they side with the Fey, and if that is the case I might make a case where some townsfolk are able to make it into the feywild to menace the Fey, Child and party, and the party will have to cover the escape.

    Gotta love contingency plans.

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  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    Adventuring is hard work.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    It was a spur of the moment end of session cliffhanger. She's gonna be cured by the unusually helpful duergar who own the basilisk first thing next session, the party will be allowed to take a short rest with them, and then get a long rest after one more encounter. Plus I had the bard/cleric and the sorcerer find a few scrolls they can use earlier, so they've got those. In a previous encounter I also included explosive barrels the sorcerer could use his fire bolt cantrip to ignite, effectively turning his fire bolt into an AoE for that battle.

    In my previous campaign I pretty much let players take a long rest whenever they wanted to, no matter how little sense it made for them to go eight hours undetected. This campaign I'm trying to make them squirm a little and subtly encourage buying limited-use items like scrolls and potions just in case they can't get a long rest in.

    Good. The "5-Minute Workday" is a thing that I hate. My players, my long time players who should fucking know better by now, continuously try and take long rests after every encounter. Its infuriating. So, yes....Make them squirm!

  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    Adventuring is hard work.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    It was a spur of the moment end of session cliffhanger. She's gonna be cured by the unusually helpful duergar who own the basilisk first thing next session, the party will be allowed to take a short rest with them, and then get a long rest after one more encounter. Plus I had the bard/cleric and the sorcerer find a few scrolls they can use earlier, so they've got those. In a previous encounter I also included explosive barrels the sorcerer could use his fire bolt cantrip to ignite, effectively turning his fire bolt into an AoE for that battle.

    In my previous campaign I pretty much let players take a long rest whenever they wanted to, no matter how little sense it made for them to go eight hours undetected. This campaign I'm trying to make them squirm a little and subtly encourage buying limited-use items like scrolls and potions just in case they can't get a long rest in.

    Good. The "5-Minute Workday" is a thing that I hate. My players, my long time players who should fucking know better by now, continuously try and take long rests after every encounter. Its infuriating. So, yes....Make them squirm!

    It sounds like you have a player problem! You and your players seem to want different things! Maybe don't take an inherently adversarial approach?

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  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    edited October 25
    I mix it up. Some days are pretty easy! maybe one big combat. Some days though, some days you're fighting for every spell slot and hit dice without any place to rest or recuperate, or are being pressured by a ticking clock. They can always try to rest, but I always spell out the potential consequences clearly for them.

    As DMs, I think a lot of us forget that the world is still moving, and if players take an hour here or there, or 8 hours to sleep and recover, things happen. It's one thing I really like that 13th age emphasizes. Make plans for if your players try to rest. Enemies prepare or ambush, the big bad completes their sacrifice, the thieves are able to evacuate their underground base. Just make sure the players understand the consequences of their resting before they do it. "Hey you know if you guys rest, the big bad will more than likely complete their ritual and you will take a "loss" and will have to deal with the fallout from that."

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    I mix it up. Some days are pretty easy! maybe one big combat. Some days though, some days you're fighting for every spell slot and hit dice without any place to rest or recuperate, or are being pressured by a ticking clock. They can always try to rest, but I always spell out the potential consequences clearly for them.

    See this doesn't bother me because it's a calculation and it's one of those things the party can control for. Random monster punishments feel more like the party has to try to guess at how the DM will punish them for being weak.

    Special shout out to @Zonugal who, in the Eberron game, ran it as having our skill checks determine it wasn't yet safe to rest

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  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    Adventuring is hard work.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    It was a spur of the moment end of session cliffhanger. She's gonna be cured by the unusually helpful duergar who own the basilisk first thing next session, the party will be allowed to take a short rest with them, and then get a long rest after one more encounter. Plus I had the bard/cleric and the sorcerer find a few scrolls they can use earlier, so they've got those. In a previous encounter I also included explosive barrels the sorcerer could use his fire bolt cantrip to ignite, effectively turning his fire bolt into an AoE for that battle.

    In my previous campaign I pretty much let players take a long rest whenever they wanted to, no matter how little sense it made for them to go eight hours undetected. This campaign I'm trying to make them squirm a little and subtly encourage buying limited-use items like scrolls and potions just in case they can't get a long rest in.

    Good. The "5-Minute Workday" is a thing that I hate. My players, my long time players who should fucking know better by now, continuously try and take long rests after every encounter. Its infuriating. So, yes....Make them squirm!

    It sounds like you have a player problem! You and your players seem to want different things! Maybe don't take an inherently adversarial approach?

    Tell them that. :) I want to maintain verisimilitude in the world we're building together. They want to ROFLstomp every encounter they face. I feel like this a normal TTRPG interaction between DM and players.

  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    Adventuring is hard work.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    It was a spur of the moment end of session cliffhanger. She's gonna be cured by the unusually helpful duergar who own the basilisk first thing next session, the party will be allowed to take a short rest with them, and then get a long rest after one more encounter. Plus I had the bard/cleric and the sorcerer find a few scrolls they can use earlier, so they've got those. In a previous encounter I also included explosive barrels the sorcerer could use his fire bolt cantrip to ignite, effectively turning his fire bolt into an AoE for that battle.

    In my previous campaign I pretty much let players take a long rest whenever they wanted to, no matter how little sense it made for them to go eight hours undetected. This campaign I'm trying to make them squirm a little and subtly encourage buying limited-use items like scrolls and potions just in case they can't get a long rest in.

    Good. The "5-Minute Workday" is a thing that I hate. My players, my long time players who should fucking know better by now, continuously try and take long rests after every encounter. Its infuriating. So, yes....Make them squirm!

    It sounds like you have a player problem! You and your players seem to want different things! Maybe don't take an inherently adversarial approach?

    Tell them that. :) I want to maintain verisimilitude in the world we're building together. They want to ROFLstomp every encounter they face. I feel like this a normal TTRPG interaction between DM and players.

    I mean, yes, you should! You want different things. You need to communicate.

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  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    webguy20 wrote: »
    I mix it up. Some days are pretty easy! maybe one big combat. Some days though, some days you're fighting for every spell slot and hit dice without any place to rest or recuperate, or are being pressured by a ticking clock. They can always try to rest, but I always spell out the potential consequences clearly for them.

    See this doesn't bother me because it's a calculation and it's one of those things the party can control for. Random monster punishments feel more like the party has to try to guess at how the DM will punish them for being weak.

    Special shout out to @Zonugal who, in the Eberron game, ran it as having our skill checks determine it wasn't yet safe to rest

    That was largely me trying to indicate to y'all that just resting in a huge, open area is... Well, it isn't the best idea.

    A group of adventures get into a secure building where they can guard one access point? Yeah, you can safely rest now.

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    Tox
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Rules question:
    Possess Corpse (Recharge 6). The dybbuk disappears into an intact corpse it can see within 5 fee t of it. The corpse must be Large or smaller and be that of a beast or a humanoid. The dybbuk is now effectively the possessed creature. Its type becomes undead, though it now looks alive, and it gains a number of temporary hit points equal to the corpse's hit point maximum in life .

    While possessing the corpse, the dybbuk retains its hit points, alignment, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma , telepathy, and immunity to poison damage, exhaustion, and being charmed and frightened. It otherwise uses the possessed target's game statistics, gaining access to its knowledge and proficiencies but not its class features, if any. The possession lasts until the temporary hit points are lost (at which point the body becomes a corpse once more) or the dybbuk ends its possession using a bonus action. When the possession ends, the dybbuk reappears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the corpse.

    The text specifies that a dybbuk does not gain access to the class features of a creature it is possessing.

    What if the dybbuk is possessing, for example, a drow matron mother? Does the dybbuk get to use everything except the drow matron mother's prepared cleric spells, since those are specifically linked to a class? If so, what in-setting reason makes class features special?

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  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    Adventuring is hard work.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    My players asked for a long rest last night at the end of the session, so instead I had a basilisk appear that ended up petrifying the bard. She then asked if being petrified for eight hours counted as a long rest.

    This ... reads like an extremely asshole DM move? Your players were worried their cyclical resources were depleted, and you responded by reducing them further?

    It was a spur of the moment end of session cliffhanger. She's gonna be cured by the unusually helpful duergar who own the basilisk first thing next session, the party will be allowed to take a short rest with them, and then get a long rest after one more encounter. Plus I had the bard/cleric and the sorcerer find a few scrolls they can use earlier, so they've got those. In a previous encounter I also included explosive barrels the sorcerer could use his fire bolt cantrip to ignite, effectively turning his fire bolt into an AoE for that battle.

    In my previous campaign I pretty much let players take a long rest whenever they wanted to, no matter how little sense it made for them to go eight hours undetected. This campaign I'm trying to make them squirm a little and subtly encourage buying limited-use items like scrolls and potions just in case they can't get a long rest in.

    Good. The "5-Minute Workday" is a thing that I hate. My players, my long time players who should fucking know better by now, continuously try and take long rests after every encounter. Its infuriating. So, yes....Make them squirm!

    It sounds like you have a player problem! You and your players seem to want different things! Maybe don't take an inherently adversarial approach?

    Tell them that. :) I want to maintain verisimilitude in the world we're building together. They want to ROFLstomp every encounter they face. I feel like this a normal TTRPG interaction between DM and players.

    I mean, yes, you should! You want different things. You need to communicate.

    Perhaps I oversold the level of antagonism in this facet of my table. Its not as bad as I think you think it actually is. :)

    override367
  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    The next time I run a campaign, I plan to use the variant rule that a short rest is eight hours and long rest is a week. I think that variant has a lot of potential to reshape the narrative. "Can we take a long rest?" becomes "Sure, are you retreating from your campaign objective?"

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  • DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    gavindel wrote: »
    The next time I run a campaign, I plan to use the variant rule that a short rest is eight hours and long rest is a week. I think that variant has a lot of potential to reshape the narrative. "Can we take a long rest?" becomes "Sure, are you retreating from your campaign objective?"

    So it takes a week of fucking off for a wizard to get spell slots back? How does that work? They get their slots back on a short rest instead? What about warlocks?

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  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    Darmak wrote: »
    gavindel wrote: »
    The next time I run a campaign, I plan to use the variant rule that a short rest is eight hours and long rest is a week. I think that variant has a lot of potential to reshape the narrative. "Can we take a long rest?" becomes "Sure, are you retreating from your campaign objective?"

    So it takes a week of fucking off for a wizard to get spell slots back? How does that work? They get their slots back on a short rest instead? What about warlocks?

    Long rest takes a week, so it takes a week to replenish your totally-not-mana reserves enough to regain your spell slots. Warlocks would need 8 hours to regain their slots. Combine this with any of the downtime systems to encourage various side tasks like research and training.

    I've never used the optional rule before, so it could always go pear-shaped (I have home-screwed a lot of various rules!), but the five minute work day is one of the game's greatest pacing and balance problems.

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  • Dizzy DDizzy D NetherlandsRegistered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Rules question:
    Possess Corpse (Recharge 6). The dybbuk disappears into an intact corpse it can see within 5 fee t of it. The corpse must be Large or smaller and be that of a beast or a humanoid. The dybbuk is now effectively the possessed creature. Its type becomes undead, though it now looks alive, and it gains a number of temporary hit points equal to the corpse's hit point maximum in life .

    While possessing the corpse, the dybbuk retains its hit points, alignment, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma , telepathy, and immunity to poison damage, exhaustion, and being charmed and frightened. It otherwise uses the possessed target's game statistics, gaining access to its knowledge and proficiencies but not its class features, if any. The possession lasts until the temporary hit points are lost (at which point the body becomes a corpse once more) or the dybbuk ends its possession using a bonus action. When the possession ends, the dybbuk reappears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the corpse.

    The text specifies that a dybbuk does not gain access to the class features of a creature it is possessing.

    What if the dybbuk is possessing, for example, a drow matron mother? Does the dybbuk get to use everything except the drow matron mother's prepared cleric spells, since those are specifically linked to a class? If so, what in-setting reason makes class features special?

    I can see logic for some classes (specifically cleric and warlock, maybe sorcerer), because their powers are derived from very powerful beings that won't be fooled by this undead thing impersonating their cleric/warlock.

    (And I guess that's the main reason, but to only exclude cleric and warlock and not any other classes (especially if it comes to multi-classed characters) would make things more difficult in the rules, so for convenience sake it becomes "all class features")

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  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    edited October 26
    Do DMs really have a hard time telling their groups, "No." when it comes to taking a long rest? Why do people opt for passive aggressiveness in their DM style as a solution, when the solution is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS talk to your players.

    Why don't people tell their players exactly what they're writing on an anonymous message board?

    "Hey guys, before we start today's game, I want to talk about resting and how it's impacting the pacing of the narrative in the game. As I build the game and plan the challenges, my expectations is that you're going to attempt 2 to 3 encounters before a short rest, and usually 5-8 before a long rest. I know sometimes the dice roll poorly, and that's not a hard and fast rule, but I really feel like this '5-minute-workday' style is detrimental to the overall flow of the game."

    And then listen with empathy when players respond, and really do your best to suss out the need to be constantly resting.

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  • GlalGlal Registered User regular
    ironzerg wrote: »
    ...my expectations is that you're going to attempt 2 to 3 encounters before a short rest...
    Christ almighty.

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  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    edited October 26
    ironzerg wrote: »
    Do DMs really have a hard time telling their groups, "No." when it comes to taking a long rest? Why do people opt for passive aggressiveness in their DM style as a solution, when the solution is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS talk to your players.

    Why don't people tell their players exactly what they're writing on an anonymous message board?

    "Hey guys, before we start today's game, I want to talk about resting and how it's impacting the pacing of the narrative in the game. As I build the game and plan the challenges, my expectations is that you're going to attempt 2 to 3 encounters before a short rest, and usually 5-8 before a long rest. I know sometimes the dice roll poorly, and that's not a hard and fast rule, but I really feel like this '5-minute-workday' style is detrimental to the overall flow of the game."

    And then listen with empathy when players respond, and really do your best to suss out the need to be constantly resting.

    No, not at all. In my experience, I do not have hard time telling my players "No." when they ask for a long rest at 11am of the in-game day. But whenever they hit that first encounter of the day, blow half their load of spells and maybe one of them takes bad beating... they're definitely going to try. I actually thank 5e for having a short rest mechanic that I can always offer instead. They can always take a short rest.

    I also don't count encounters per day in my calculations on whether or not to award a long rest. Its based on narrative and whether or not the party is in a safe enough location to do so. I doesn't matter to me if its only one encounter that day, if its bedtime then its bedtime. Likewise, if they are mid dungeon and have gone through 7 encounters already....they had better be making plans to find a safe spot to get that rest in otherwise its going to get interrupted! (my larger dungeons always have one or two safe resting spots if that party cares to look for them and/or put effort into making them safe.)

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  • AmarylAmaryl Registered User regular
    My general approach to the 5 minute workday is saying; It's not even noon yet, you've barely been up for 5 hours, you want to go back to sleep? in the middle of this now roused dungeon from all the ruckus you just made?
    If they don't secure their camp well enough I give them a random encounter, and make the next encounter more difficult due to the additional day of preparation. if they leave the dungeon to come back the next day rested. Surprise the room you had empty are now occupied again, by something. Because its free real-estate.

    I generally like to put some time-pressure on most adventures. my players can generally do what they want, but sometimes that means that the additional long rest means the princess is now in another castle. Or the bad guy had more time to assemble his forces. Or yeah you failed big time, the girl you were hired to save... yeah the coven completed the ritual and she is now a hag. Maybe the dilliedallying has made some enemies flee the dungeon bringing their valuables with them.

    Limiting long-rests can be a tension ratchet; and if set up properly your players will need to move and clear the dungeon or the objective.

    but hey sometimes you get ambushed in a back-alley in the middle of the shopping/hook session, and then here's the opportunity to just not care about resource economy.

    I never limit short rests though, at some point the players are out of hit dies. I generally aim for 2 short rests for every long rest. and that's about 4-6 combat encounters. and while in dungeons, I generally like to end my sessions on either a long-rest or a cliffhanger set-up just after/before a long rest.

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  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    Yea, the 5 minute workday is more a symptom of a lack of narrative pressure than anything else. As a player of course I'm going to try to maximize my resources, and if there is no pressure then for sure I'm going to take my time and maximize my rests.

    Of course these discussions should be had up front with the party and DM. i have a little spiel for session 0 that outlines my general DM style and expectations, then I get feedback from my players. Its taken a fee games to nail down but it works pretty well.

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  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    I go the opposite way (I feel like I say that a lot with 5E) and assume a 5-minute work day. For my style of DMing it's just much easier to flip the script. With how long my sessions are I usually only have time for one encounter, so I tend to plan the pacing of the adventure around that. It's also easier to plan encounters when you know that the party has all their toys available.

    I do on occasion run multiple encounters before a rest, but it's for times when I want the party to feel particularly pressured or under duress.

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  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    There's no wrong way to run it, but setting expectations at the table can make a huge difference.

    And sometimes players feeling like they need to be constantly resting to restore powers is a symptom of poor planning, encounter design, or narrative pacing on behalf the DM, not the players.



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  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    edited October 26
    ironzerg wrote: »
    There's no wrong way to run it, but setting expectations at the table can make a huge difference.

    And sometimes players feeling like they need to be constantly resting to restore powers is a symptom of poor planning, encounter design, or narrative pacing on behalf the DM, not the players.

    Why is it always the DM's fault? Should the players not be responsible for their own resources? If the party chooses to drop high level spells on half a dozen kobolds at dawn and have nothing left in the tank when the dragon comes around at dusk, then that's how that cookie crumbled. It should not be expected that a DM will change the narrative to suit the players choices, lest they be labelled a bad DM. Umpires in baseball don't care that a pitchers arms get tired and widen the strike zone to suit how much energy he has left.

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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    ironzerg wrote: »
    There's no wrong way to run it, but setting expectations at the table can make a huge difference.

    And sometimes players feeling like they need to be constantly resting to restore powers is a symptom of poor planning, encounter design, or narrative pacing on behalf the DM, not the players.

    Why is it always the DM's fault? Should the players not be responsible for their own resources? If the party chooses to drop high level spells on half a dozen kobolds at dawn and have nothing left in the tank when the dragon comes around at dusk, then that's how that cookie crumbled. It should not expected that a DM will change the narrative to suit the players choices, lest they be labelled a bad DM. Umpires in baseball don't care that a pitchers arms get tired and widen the strike zone to suit how much energy he has left.
    ironzerg wrote: »
    There's no wrong way to run it, but setting expectations at the table can make a huge difference.

    And sometimes players feeling like they need to be constantly resting to restore powers is a symptom of poor planning, encounter design, or narrative pacing on behalf the DM, not the players.

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  • GlalGlal Registered User regular
    Also, as a player, it's fun to use your toys. Holding all of your best stuff back all the time, just in case, and then almost never using it isn't really fun.

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  • SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    edited October 26
    It's also worth noting that you can only get the benefits of a long rest once per day - I've found that telling my group that sure, you can long rest, but it'll take 21 hours makes them rethink things.

    A lot can happen in 21 hours :D

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  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    It is not passive aggressive to build the structure of your table with a goal in mind. This information is provided at the beginning of the campaign. If the week long rest rule turns out to be a terrible idea, then there is a discussion about how to change. This could mean letting characters rebuild their sheets because an axiom has been changed.

    Passive aggressive GMing long rests would be "oh, I suppose you could try, ya know, if ya don't care bout them there objectives ya know."

    Across a dozen groups and fifteen years of DnD, I have never met a group that didn't blow their fireball wad on the first four orcs they see. The vast majority of players I have met put minimal effort into resource management and in fact find the game untenable when those rules are strictly enforced.

    The GM has to decide what their campaign will be. How strictly consequences are enforced. The designers of dnd rather unwisely decided to balance interclass utility by time on one hand and then provide trivial solutions for rest timing on the other. The GM is the one who has to manage this contradiction.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited October 26
    ironzerg wrote: »
    ...my expectations is that you're going to attempt 2 to 3 encounters before a short rest...
    Glal wrote: »
    Christ almighty.

    Sounds reasonable to me. I'm fairly certain the DMG explicitly states this as the ideal somewhere.

    A common criticism of 5E is that it gives you plenty of gold and nothing to spend it on. Making long rests rare ideally encourages characters that rely on long rests to regain their spells to spend that money on buying or researching where to obtain potions, scrolls, wands, staves, and other items.

    To further reinforce this point beyond giving them some free potions and scrolls, for the last two sessions the players have been accompanied by an NPC that doesn't fight, but instead has a staff of healing and potions of healing that she has used to heal the characters (these have all been used, as of now).

    EDIT: I should also mention that I'm working towards the party having to interact and cooperate with factions in the area that oppose each other and might not be trustworthy as part of the long-term arc. For example, the short rest I'm going to give them the opportunity to take would be with a war band of duergar who have been fighting the same hordes of kruthiks the PCs' have and are themselves resting. The leader has a secret interest in the PC bard/cleric for a long-term plan, another beat the PC monk in a pit fighting match several sessions ago but currently is very near death, and the PC sorcerer has a mining contract with the dwarves that the duergar are opposed to.

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited October 26
    Denada wrote: »
    I go the opposite way (I feel like I say that a lot with 5E) and assume a 5-minute work day. For my style of DMing it's just much easier to flip the script. With how long my sessions are I usually only have time for one encounter, so I tend to plan the pacing of the adventure around that. It's also easier to plan encounters when you know that the party has all their toys available.

    I do on occasion run multiple encounters before a rest, but it's for times when I want the party to feel particularly pressured or under duress.

    For me it depends on if they're running a dungeon or something. They're going to tend to have all their resources while just doing stuff in the world... but then again I just "yadayada" narratively handle random encounters instead of sitting down and actually playing out a combat, unless everyone seems like they're itching for combat

    like yeah, you're going to beat the 3 trolls, you're level 7 and have all your spell slots and you'll be able to long rest afterwards. Just describe how you kill the trolls

    but if I'm going to have one combat for the session, I try to find ways to bleed their resources beforehand. Difficult social encounters. A front entrance that's going to be a clusterfuck or a side entrance that's difficult and going to consume resources like Fly and Invisibility Spells, "Your passive perception reveals MAGICAL WARDS THAT WILL KILL YOU" and then they're happy that they spotted them and happily blow third level spell slots dismantling them.

    when they long rest in a dungeon? it's always really bad for them! I also always remind them that they can only long rest every 24 hours

    I literally can't imagine running a game where the wizard casts mage armor and magic missile and it's going to be a WEEK before he gets those spells back. what? It's especially bullshit because I can be 100% sure that no DM who runs this has the players run across Goblin Shamans who are out of spell slots because it hasn't been a week since they used them, nope, every spellcaster the party fights is going to be able to do their cool magic shit.

    override367 on
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    I think one of my favorite bad guy caster happenings recently was an illusionist that attempted to use a spell scroll to cast illusory dragon and failed. He spent a round staring disapointedly at his blown scroll, sighed dejectedly, and railed the closest player character with magic missiles before turning invisible and just totally fuckin off from the fight cause he could see his side was definitely losing.

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  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    So what I'm getting here is that people in this thread, in fact, do not like the idea.

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  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    gavindel wrote: »
    So what I'm getting here is that people in this thread, in fact, do not like the idea.

    If the table thinks it's fun, then that's all that matters. We're just nitpicky because what else is there for us to do?

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  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    Also, double post, but the biggest thing to get things running smoothly is just to talk to your players and set expectations. That fixes like 99% of things that people make up home rules for.

    "Hey you guys are heroes, the game, and I as DM, have the expectation that you won't be resting between each encounter. Is that the kind of game play you want? What do you as players want to see in the game?"

    The result might be that your players come back and say "We never have any idea what is coming next! so we just blow all our spells at once" and you as a DM can then take that and modify the game. Make sure the dungeons are better telegraphed either through lore or information the players find out so they know that they'll be facing multiple encounters. Build missions and adventures with in game time limits due to consequences, and be super up front with the characters about that. "You have to save the king's son before the new moon or the evil wizard will sacrifice him! You have 2 days".

    Bam, good to go.

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