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[D&D Discussion] What makes a man turn neutral?

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  • RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    it really does just come down to whether you define the terms of alignment (whether as a leading or trailing indicator doesn't matter) based on the moral ideals of the players (knights are lawful evil) or of the world in which they live (knights are probably lawful good).

    And once you get outside explicitly Christian based settings (ie: anything rooted in medieval europe even if they sprinkle a few extra "gods" around) you can get morality that is based on shame / honor rather than good / evil or other approaches entirely.



    Another example of morality from this vid starting at 2:00

    TLDW: The main characters escape captivity and on their way out steal the treasure of their captors. But after escaping with the loot Egill realized this was immoral. He has taken from them as a thief without their knowledge. So he goes back to the house and boards it up from outside then sets it on fire. But before those inside burn to death he yells in who he is and that he has taken their treasure. Thus his conscience is clear and he is still a good man.


    side note: anyone interested in pulling some old norse / viking themes into their game should go through Jackson's entire youtube backlog. Or anyone just wanting to watch some damn good content.

    DEFUND THE POLICE
    Sleep
  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    edited April 2
    IMO if you want a really good case study on the difference between lawful and good, watch the original Charmed show. The Elders are originally presented and positioned as if they're supposed to be this group of Lawful Good paragons, but as you get deeper into it, it becomes pretty apparent that their priority is Law, not necessarily Good. They do things that, from the worldview of the NG protagonists (The sisters) is some pretty flat Evil shit, in the service of Lawfulness. That's why Zankou was such a fun character, he wasn't inherently evil, he was Chaotic Neutral. Which further proved the supernatural fight in the show was Order vs Chaos moreso than Good vs Evil. Putting the protagonists as NG against that background was (probably accidentally) brilliant as it presenting a pretty good case study on differences in those types of alignment-moralities.

    The problem is that folks are kind of forcing real life into the game by pre-supposing that if you do not actively oppose evil, you are at least tacitly evil yourself, or at least doing evil by not opposing evil. I 100% understand where that's coming from, but that is not how D&D alignment presents the concept or morality of evil. A LN paladin who doesn't slay the evil overlord because they feel compelled to wait until they have the right evidence/moment/angle to do so is not being evil from their own point of view (but from my point of view the Jedi are evil). They're simply prioritizing the preservation of law over the opposition of evil. That's why they're Lawful Neutral. Their worldview is that while evil may be bad and opposing it may be important, it's more important to preserve lawfulness. That's why they're not good! But if "neutral" must exist (and the rules explicitly say it does), then there must necessarily be a middle-ground between Good and Evil that can exist. If you define one end of a spectrum as existing in opposition to the other, then there cannot be a middle ground. If a middle ground existing is factual, then the definition of one end as opposing the other must factually be incorrect within the context of the medium.

    Neutral exists, therefore you cannot define good as purely being in opposition of evil, because that definition means that either you oppose evil or you don't, and therefore you are either good or evil.

    Hell there's another one! The Jedi in the prequels clearly are upholding Law over Good, and it's a common theme if you look at enough things from a CG mindset, you can see as an absolutely trope in a lot of media.

    Tox on
    SmrtnikElvenshae
  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    I just want to clarify that I'm not suggesting the Demons in Charmed aren't evil. They're Chaotic Evil, and the Whitelighters writ large are actually Lawful Good. But the Elders in charge clearly prioritize Law over Good, even though many individual WLs (especially Leo) are shown to prioritize Good over Law (doing what's right over doing what they should). Most demons are pure CE in that they prioritize whatever will bring in the biggest and most immediate benefit to them, personally (well, most named demons. Most demons just wanna cause destruction for the lulz). But you get the occasional CN or NE demon that's a slightly more nuanced/interesting, even though ultimately it's just various expressions of serving their personal interests one way or another.

    Again, it's actually a very interesting case study!

  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2
    how about moral philosophy chart instead of alignment

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    override367 on
    spool32
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 3
    If you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, try not to drag too much real world baggage with corruption into it. If a knight can cast paladin spells, he or she probably is really, truly a good person. Conversely, a truly evil knight, if they aren't an idiot, is probably a worshipper of Bane or trying to gain favor with The Nine Hells, because hell is real and everyone is 900% sure of it (in the northern sword coast, it has been all of 2 years since a massive demon invasion) - so if someone is a scam artist, or an embezzler, or starving their subjects, they probably have a shrine to Asmodeus or Dispater in their closet if they aren't a dumbass who thinks they're going to live forever

    The only thing with lawful goodly types is that you just need to figure out how big the font in their "lawful" is as to whether or not you'd necessarily want them running things. Personally if I lived in D&D land I'd probably want someone who is of Drizzt's alignment running things, who when he is told that his god believes in genocide of all orcs, abandons his god rather than his principles (neutral good)


    note: many nobles and lords are legitimately dumbasses who act like they're going to live forever, canonically. The story of the ring of winter involved one of them who was unquestionably evil, but just assumed because of his breeding he'd make it to some good after life

    my favorite example of an evil rich asshole is Kwayathe from Tomb of Annihilation who is an unrepentant slaver that tortures people beneath her station, and has a pair of fiends at her side at all time - it just isn't illegal for her to be brazen about it in Chult. She's decided that she's too terrible of a person to have a good afterlife, so she's banking on getting a comfy desk job in the hells by doing enough work for them while she's alive. She's not a good villain or deeply written or anything, but treating evil so transactionally because fuck it doing good works is too hard makes so much sense with the world's metaphysics

    override367 on
    ToxSmrtnikElvenshae
  • RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    One of the things that is the least accessible to modern people about the reality of medieval society was that people then really believed deep down in hell (I suppose heaven as well but hell has always been the bigger seller for christianity) and supernatural powers in their daily lives in a way that even the most feverent churchgoer today just does not.

    It was, as prof Freedman sums up so well in the first minute of this lecture, a time of "thugs and miracles".

    DEFUND THE POLICE
    override367
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 3
    While true, I think it's more complicated than that, because the people who did what god "Really wanted" them to do didn't gain magical powers - where as in D&D they do, and if they get it wrong for too long, Chosen of the god or an actual angel will put their foot down as to how wrong they're getting it

    There's a lot less grey area as to the intentions of say, Chauntea, on feeding the poor, because how followers can generate enough food to feed millions of people by farming 4 acres of land

    in one of the novels, a Temple of Selune in Memnon was revealed to have its leadership be abusing the poor, for labor or for sex, and it was also a secret that the leadership of the temple had no magical powers whatsoever (using deception and keeping the younger priests out of the loop so they had no idea) - when the protagonist of the book decided to murder everyone in the temple it was pretty easy for him to tell which ones were okay to murder because they had no divine magic to protect themselves. In real life if that happens, the men doing it might think they are still going to heaven, but in D&D - those priests absolutely knew they were not going to go to Selune when they died because she had quite tangibly "cut them off"

    override367 on
  • RonaldoTheGypsyRonaldoTheGypsy Or just "Ron" Registered User regular
    Man my game is flailing I had like 8 players and they kind of sank in a mixture of work schedules and other issues. I try to run a session with at least four and I keep ending up with 3. Does anyone have any experience using the lfg reddit or roll20's function or anything?

  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    Man my game is flailing I had like 8 players and they kind of sank in a mixture of work schedules and other issues. I try to run a session with at least four and I keep ending up with 3. Does anyone have any experience using the lfg reddit or roll20's function or anything?

    I'd say try to play with 3. You can get a lot done story wise with just three players. Combat trucks along nicely too.

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  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    I'd stick with the three and bring the others in as 'guest stars' when doing a one shot size adventure.

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  • BursarBursar Hee Noooo! PDX areaRegistered User regular
    Man my game is flailing I had like 8 players and they kind of sank in a mixture of work schedules and other issues. I try to run a session with at least four and I keep ending up with 3. Does anyone have any experience using the lfg reddit or roll20's function or anything?

    I've met a couple of groups through Reddit / lfg, and haven't had any horror stories because of it. The first one was promising, but I had to leave it because I moved. The second one has been going strong since late 2019.

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  • VanguardVanguard A wretched country of duskRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Man my game is flailing I had like 8 players and they kind of sank in a mixture of work schedules and other issues. I try to run a session with at least four and I keep ending up with 3. Does anyone have any experience using the lfg reddit or roll20's function or anything?

    been running on roll20 for about a year, 40 sessions in

    3 is a sweet spot for getting your feet wet

    i vastly prefer just using it as a tool to host the game vs. loading in battlemaps and shit as that makes the game slower

    i'll usually load different rooms to set the ambiance but otherwise it's all theater of the mind

  • JPantsJPants Registered User regular
    So I'm thinking of taking another swing at getting my friends on board with a D&D game, and I actually think a PbP style game would have the best chance at success (in person we tend to do MTG, pre-pandemic at least, and when we get on voice chat we do more actiony games like Gunfire Reborn). Specifically something with a built in roller, like Geth. This lead me towards Avrae, the discord bot that integrates with D&D Beyond.

    Anyone have any experience with that? My best shot at getting this to be successful is to make things as easy as possible for the players and the character sheet tracking/integration seems pretty user friendly.

  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    edited April 4
    JPants wrote: »
    So I'm thinking of taking another swing at getting my friends on board with a D&D game, and I actually think a PbP style game would have the best chance at success (in person we tend to do MTG, pre-pandemic at least, and when we get on voice chat we do more actiony games like Gunfire Reborn). Specifically something with a built in roller, like Geth. This lead me towards Avrae, the discord bot that integrates with D&D Beyond.

    Anyone have any experience with that? My best shot at getting this to be successful is to make things as easy as possible for the players and the character sheet tracking/integration seems pretty user friendly.

    Zonugal came up with what I think are some pretty good PbP rules/expectations that if you can get them to buy into make the game move at a pretty decent pace for PbP

    Tox on
    Zonugaloverride367
  • ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    edited April 4
    Thanks for the recommendation, Tox!

    Uh, yeah, I ran a Play-by-Post on here last year that implemented some hard rules as to expediate action.

    The main thing was for combat, I had every player give me: their primary battle commands and then any back-up/secondary battle commands. I then, privately, rolled initiative and put the player's in order and just used their issued battle commands. Sometimes this meant that a player's proposed action didn't pan out at all, but it overwhelmingly tended to work (players would just give somewhat vague battle commands: "If the orc is within my character's range, I fire an arrow at them. If they move within five feet of me, I instead drop my bow, pull out a dagger, and attack them with that.")

    I then took the results of all of that and wrote out a narrative for every round of combat.

    I would strongly recommend this as it dramatically sped up combat, as instead of players having to wait for someone to write a post for 12 hours, everyone was able to get their commands in at a somewhat reasonable pace. The disadvantage of this is that players have a very hard time syncing up their battle commands, but the advantage is that you can get through a fight in four days (pretty quick!).

    If you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them!

    Zonugal on
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  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    If the folks in your group have any familiarity with programming, combat basically works with a series of If/Then/Else statements (but you really only want, like, two IFs max).

  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    If you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them!

    I'm actually curious how/if you've changed your homebrew race write-ups in the wake of Tasha's ability score rule changes

  • ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    If you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them!

    I'm actually curious how/if you've changed your homebrew race write-ups in the wake of Tasha's ability score rule changes

    I didn't buy Tasha's Cauldron, so I'm unfamiliar with the ability score rule changes as presented in it.

    But I have recently started hard-modding the first edition of Pathfinder for the Eberron campaign setting, so I am modding how initial ability score modifiers work in that game system.

    Ross-Geller-Prime-Sig-A.jpg
  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    If you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them!

    I'm actually curious how/if you've changed your homebrew race write-ups in the wake of Tasha's ability score rule changes

    I didn't buy Tasha's Cauldron, so I'm unfamiliar with the ability score rule changes as presented in it.

    But I have recently started hard-modding the first edition of Pathfinder for the Eberron campaign setting, so I am modding how initial ability score modifiers work in that game system.

    Have you looked at Pathfinder 2.0?

  • ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    If you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them!

    I'm actually curious how/if you've changed your homebrew race write-ups in the wake of Tasha's ability score rule changes

    I didn't buy Tasha's Cauldron, so I'm unfamiliar with the ability score rule changes as presented in it.

    But I have recently started hard-modding the first edition of Pathfinder for the Eberron campaign setting, so I am modding how initial ability score modifiers work in that game system.

    Have you looked at Pathfinder 2.0?

    I have but I chose Pathfinder's first edition due to the huge amount of content and also because its a "closed" system now, so I know what the system looks like when I begin modding it.

    If that makes sense?

    Also, I'm doing E8 for my setting, so the thousand feats is a real asset.

    Ross-Geller-Prime-Sig-A.jpg
    ToxElvenshae
  • SproutSprout Registered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    If you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them!

    I'm actually curious how/if you've changed your homebrew race write-ups in the wake of Tasha's ability score rule changes

    I didn't buy Tasha's Cauldron, so I'm unfamiliar with the ability score rule changes as presented in it.

    But I have recently started hard-modding the first edition of Pathfinder for the Eberron campaign setting, so I am modding how initial ability score modifiers work in that game system.

    The primary gist of it is that you pick one stat to be your +2 and another to be your +1. So you want a strong elf, no problem. A charismatic orc? Hell yeah.

    This also looks like how they’re handing things with the new races they’ve been testing via Unearthed Arcanas, so it looks like it’ll be Wizards’ approach going forward.

    spool32Elvenshae
  • ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Sprout wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    If you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them!

    I'm actually curious how/if you've changed your homebrew race write-ups in the wake of Tasha's ability score rule changes

    I didn't buy Tasha's Cauldron, so I'm unfamiliar with the ability score rule changes as presented in it.

    But I have recently started hard-modding the first edition of Pathfinder for the Eberron campaign setting, so I am modding how initial ability score modifiers work in that game system.

    The primary gist of it is that you pick one stat to be your +2 and another to be your +1. So you want a strong elf, no problem. A charismatic orc? Hell yeah.

    This also looks like how they’re handing things with the new races they’ve been testing via Unearthed Arcanas, so it looks like it’ll be Wizards’ approach going forward.

    Ah...

    So, my approach was this:
    In terms of stats or attributes, characters in the game are built in accordance with the standard array:
    15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Characters are also designed through a combination of your race, background, and 1st-level class. These three choices all reflect on your initial ability score increases. Any such combinations are allowed, with the only provision being the prohibiting of increasing any single ability score by +3 (so for example you could allot yourself +1 Int/+1 Dex/+1 Wis, or +2 Int/+1 Dex, but not +3 Int).

    Example Race
    -- Dwarf: Your Strength, Constitution, or Wisdom increases by 1 (your choice).

    Example Background
    -- Criminal: Your Dexterity, Intelligence, or Charisma increases by 1 (your choice).

    Example Class
    -- Monk: Your Dexterity, Constitution, or Wisdom increases by 1 (your choice).

    Ross-Geller-Prime-Sig-A.jpg
  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Sprout wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    If you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them!

    I'm actually curious how/if you've changed your homebrew race write-ups in the wake of Tasha's ability score rule changes

    I didn't buy Tasha's Cauldron, so I'm unfamiliar with the ability score rule changes as presented in it.

    But I have recently started hard-modding the first edition of Pathfinder for the Eberron campaign setting, so I am modding how initial ability score modifiers work in that game system.

    The primary gist of it is that you pick one stat to be your +2 and another to be your +1. So you want a strong elf, no problem. A charismatic orc? Hell yeah.

    This also looks like how they’re handing things with the new races they’ve been testing via Unearthed Arcanas, so it looks like it’ll be Wizards’ approach going forward.

    Ah...

    So, my approach was this:
    In terms of stats or attributes, characters in the game are built in accordance with the standard array:
    15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Characters are also designed through a combination of your race, background, and 1st-level class. These three choices all reflect on your initial ability score increases. Any such combinations are allowed, with the only provision being the prohibiting of increasing any single ability score by +3 (so for example you could allot yourself +1 Int/+1 Dex/+1 Wis, or +2 Int/+1 Dex, but not +3 Int).

    Example Race
    -- Dwarf: Your Strength, Constitution, or Wisdom increases by 1 (your choice).

    Example Background
    -- Criminal: Your Dexterity, Intelligence, or Charisma increases by 1 (your choice).

    Example Class
    -- Monk: Your Dexterity, Constitution, or Wisdom increases by 1 (your choice).

    If I was going to keep it race agnostic I'd give a +1 to wherever the player wants it but it has to be based on something from their backstory.

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 4
    I restarted my Tomb of Annihilation Game, so we can finish the tomb

    I spend about 16 straight hours moving everything over to foundry, which involved redoing every npc's character art because my standards have risen - and coming to the realization there is not that much character art for African fantasy characters on the internet. I found what I needed, made a map for the party's mansion in Dungeondraft, and filled it with vampires - the idea being acererak was mad they killed his invisible beholder in the room with the slippery floor and giant magnet so he filled their house with vampires

    Not hard for an 11th level party - although they very nearly went there BEFORE resting which, lol wat? So after the npcs convinced them to rest because they were completely spent from the beholder fight, they did a little reintroduction to their home base by clearing it room by room, with all their servants held up in the basement (except the old woman who was just making dinner, keeping vampires at bay by yelling at them that they'll spoil the supper if they eat her)

    Everything went as expected until they hit the miniboss, a vampire spellcaster, who they quickly burned the legendary resistances on - I had her try to charm the fey wanderer ranger (I let them respec their characters since its been so long).. but he just reflected it with his 7th level feature and since I've decided that the potency of the reflected charm is equivilent to the source, well, he has a vampire friend now

    This required me to come up with a backstory for this vampire whos only purpose was to just be something to kill. I mean Acererak's just going to kill the vampire but they got a bunch of lore dump about Omu at least. Oh and the sorceress got disintegrated by the vampire, uhoh! I got to finally monologue about the soul monger, and player has to roll a new character. The timer is on!

    override367 on
    Nips
  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    I restarted my Tomb of Annihilation Game, so we can finish the tomb

    I spend about 16 straight hours moving everything over to foundry, which involved redoing every npc's character art because my standards have risen - and coming to the realization there is not that much character art for African fantasy characters on the internet. I found what I needed, made a map for the party's mansion in Dungeondraft, and filled it with vampires - the idea being acererak was mad they killed his invisible beholder in the room with the slippery floor and giant magnet so he filled their house with vampires

    Not hard for an 11th level party - although they very nearly went there BEFORE resting which, lol wat? So after the npcs convinced them to rest because they were completely spent from the beholder fight, they did a little reintroduction to their home base by clearing it room by room, with all their servants held up in the basement (except the old woman who was just making dinner, keeping vampires at bay by yelling at them that they'll spoil the supper if they eat her)

    Everything went as expected until they hit the miniboss, a vampire spellcaster, who they quickly burned the legendary resistances on - I had her try to charm the fey wanderer ranger (I let them respec their characters since its been so long).. but he just reflected it with his 7th level feature and since I've decided that the potency of the reflected charm is equivilent to the source, well, he has a vampire friend now

    This required me to come up with a backstory for this vampire whos only purpose was to just be something to kill. I mean Acererak's just going to kill the vampire but they got a bunch of lore dump about Omu at least. Oh and the sorceress got disintegrated by the vampire, uhoh! I got to finally monologue about the soul monger, and player has to roll a new character. The timer is on!

    If you want a good source for African Fantasy characters then follow the Ebony Imagination subreddit. It is a treasure trove of just fantastic artwork. The quality of the art coming from those artists just blows my mind on a continual basis.

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  • ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    If I was going to keep it race agnostic I'd give a +1 to wherever the player wants it but it has to be based on something from their backstory.

    And that would be totally fine.

    This is just my desire to inject some minor min-max element into character creation.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    I think if I was gonna do an E(x) game I would want to just start at whichever level knowing that was that.

    But I think a big part of that is that I'm finding more and more that I just don't have the patience for level grind anymore. I've just lost interest in that aspect

  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    So I don't know if it's still current lore, or if they even bother to explain any of it in this edition, but I was reading some lore about Baatezu that while male Baatezu can sire children, but because devils don't reproduce naturally, female Baatezu are sterile but... Why didn't they just say that Baatezu can't reproduce with one another, but can with other races. It seems like a weird and pointless distinction to make.

    Lord_Asmodeus.gifLord_Asmodeus2.gifz1i30sg.png
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    So I don't know if it's still current lore, or if they even bother to explain any of it in this edition, but I was reading some lore about Baatezu that while male Baatezu can sire children, but because devils don't reproduce naturally, female Baatezu are sterile but... Why didn't they just say that Baatezu can't reproduce with one another, but can with other races. It seems like a weird and pointless distinction to make.

    Because sexism. The male devils are virile and the source of all tieflings, while the females are aparrently just f-boxes. Gross.

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 5
    in 5e, no devils are capable of reproduction except for archdevils and erinyes, who all can, but succubi and incubi can as well

    other devils don't have a biological sex anymore but often have a gender identity

    every cambion is from an erinyes, succubus, incubus, archdevil, or probably demon (lets not think too much about this one) getting busy with a mortal, and it's unclear where tieflings come from now (fiendish deals I guess? or children of cambions and mortals)

    edit: I believe tieflings come from someone in their lineage making an infernal pact

    override367 on
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    I can't say I care all that much about the sexual habits of demons/devils and angels..... except to say that lust and sexual desires, etc are some key motivating factors in the corruption of mortals. Because us humans are very much motivated by sex. I would think that the corruptors themselves would share those desires so as to much better tempt the mortals down the path.

    That plays into the trope of sexual appetites being "evil" and the devil's work while purity/asexualness of the angels is "good" though. Which is no longer as widely accepted IRL, and should not be! I'm all for people letting thier freak flags fly and not being labeled as evil and/or deviant!

    To that end (again this has never come up in my games but I like the thought just hanging out there in the ether) that both infernals and celestials alike fuck. But its the motivations behind thier actions that determine if they're good or evil. Not whether or not they're anatomically correct.

  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited April 5
    They're creatures made from belief, and are transformed from petitioners or pure planar energy. Doesn't make sense to me that they have very much in the way of biology at all - it's not like they need to eat or breathe for the most part either.

    Tastyfish on
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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 5
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    They're creatures made from belief, and are transformed from petitioners or pure planar energy. Doesn't make sense to me that they have very much in the way of biology at all - it's not like they need to eat or breathe for the most part either.

    I'm just talking about how they're officially presented in D&D, which are mortal souls that are shaped with intent after having their memories washed out - with some exceptions (succubi/succubois/erinyes/cambions) - and angels are creations of gods (and in the case of fiends, do need to eat, sleep, and breath - probably so they can be tortured in more ways, devils also respawn if they're killed outside of their home plane)
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I can't say I care all that much about the sexual habits of demons/devils and angels..... except to say that lust and sexual desires, etc are some key motivating factors in the corruption of mortals. Because us humans are very much motivated by sex. I would think that the corruptors themselves would share those desires so as to much better tempt the mortals down the path.

    That plays into the trope of sexual appetites being "evil" and the devil's work while purity/asexualness of the angels is "good" though. Which is no longer as widely accepted IRL, and should not be! I'm all for people letting thier freak flags fly and not being labeled as evil and/or deviant!

    To that end (again this has never come up in my games but I like the thought just hanging out there in the ether) that both infernals and celestials alike fuck. But its the motivations behind thier actions that determine if they're good or evil. Not whether or not they're anatomically correct.


    I've only read one D&D novel about how a succubus is portrayed (one working for the hells), and it seemed like sex was only one tool she used, and the general attitude toward sex is a lot less "sinful" in D&D (at least contemporarily). Primarily the reason sex will work as a weapon is because of the reason they're sleeping with her (her human persona is super popular, everyone wants to be with her that knows her, she's basically a celebrity). She asks them to do something that betrays their faith, and then seduces them. A married woman sleeps with her and then is blackmailed, etc. In general her main thing was using lust for power and position a lot more than sex, almost acting like at her age, mortals who have to be manipulated with their genitals are kind of beneath her - but it doesn't stop her from using that as a last resort when one of her "assets" figures out she's a fiend, starts panicking, and she sighs, charms him, and sleeps with him to bring him back in line (they seem to treat it like they've fucked up in some way if they have to actually charm a mortal, since any evil committed by a charmed mortal doesn't "count" to whichever god is keeping score these days)

    the best part was her Imp assistant, who threatened to file a hellish version of an HR complaint against her for not releasing it from service at the agreed upon time

    like she didn't even try to seduce Drizzt, she went straight to using his friends as the pressure point to (successfully) manipulate him almost instantly, acting as a concerned and knowledgeable ally (and thinking "I bet I can wind this guy up to kill people who mean harm to Neverwinter"). I've let this influence how I run them in games, each one of these creatures on the prime should have a small army of people who support them, they're each basically a mini-CIA unto themselves


    I purchased a supplement on DMsguild called "Emrikul's guide to devils" that consolidates D&D lore on fiends and hacks off some overlapping/rapey/weird bits from earlier editions that I very much like. My Averuns DM seems to like it too, since one of the things in is that his Zariel hates devils and only trusts Erinyeses with important tasks, since they are also fallen angels, and I think he got it from that supplement

    override367 on
    NipsElvenshaeIncenjucar
  • chosenofsotekchosenofsotek Registered User regular
    edited April 5
    Session 3 of my CoS campaign was yesterday. One player had to miss out and another, my Tatyana reincarnation, could only stay for half of it, so we ended up doing a shorter session. We picked up in the middle of Strahd laying siege to Ireena and Ismark's home to get to the Tatyana reincarnation and it took up the entire session. The PCs fought back Strahd's forces and found a note affixed to the door from Strahd addressed to Tatyana, apologizing for losing his cool, how they are destined to be his, how he's sure they will come to him, etc etc etc. The party is convinced it was intended for Ireena and are now deadset on protecting her from Strahd.

    But I've now run into a problem. The Drow Rogue is planning on quitting the campaign. It's her first DnD game ever and she's come to the conclusion DnD isn't really her thing. The problem is that I've completely rewritten the Elves to be Drow to tie into her back story and the Paladin's backstory is directly tied to her. The party has already met Rahadin and have learned all the other elves in Barovia are Drow, so the information has already been presented to them. The Rogue has not decided when exactly she's going to quit the campaign, so I'm also not sure when I'll have to redirect/rewrite story elements. The rogue is also my GF, so she's been really hesitant to give me a hard date of when she's quitting or committing to quitting because I think she's afraid to hurt my feelings or disappoint me.

    chosenofsotek on
    override367
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 6
    I've adopted Wisteria Vale (from Candlekeep Mysteries) into curse of strahd with Strahd having Imprisoned Sergei's soul in this idyllic village, where Sergei is the burgomaster, complete with fiance Tatyana

    Strahd did this with "constructed commoners", from the Wisteria Vale adventure (Sergei instead of Quill from that module), and by stuffing souls of random Barovians in them to make them more lifelike

    Sergei knows its fake but cannot be convinced that this isn't the real Tatyana. She's with child after all, and she seems so real.

    The party has found his old diaries, hidden away, and learned the truth: this has continued for hundreds of years, Sergei's memory keeps getting erased and the place "resets", the golems in the mansion hiding the evidence. Tatyana never has their child, their wedding day never comes. Strahd has trapped Sergei in a cage, giving him everything his heart ever wanted, but not really. Every year the entire village starts over, with Sergei meeting Tatyana "for the first time" (in this post-life cage, anyway, he remembers dying and some part of him knows she died too)

    The reason they found this hidden place is that a beholder accidentally dreamed itself into the place and is causing havoc, and warped villagers were leaving the place and causing problems - so I get a fun beholder boss fight next week.

    The party is super split on whether they want to pull the plug on this place, try and alter it so everyone keeps their memories in the village (so it stops being "Westworldified), or just... leave it as it is and close it up to stay hidden. There's going to be some kind of tragedy no matter which option they pick and I'm very happy that it's caused a genuine lack of a clear way forward for them

    override367 on
    SmrtnikNips
  • NipsNips Luxuriating in existential crisis.Registered User regular
    You guys and all your Curse stuff. It sounds like so much fun, but I'd have an impossible time getting buy-in from my group (short of railroading).

    So here I am, beginning to work on my group's upcoming session for Saturday, thinking: "How do I effectively, foreshadowed but not signal-flare announced, attack them with just enough dragons?"

    Sometimes I wish I'd stuck to modules instead of going homebrew...

    JXUBxMxP0QndjQUEnTwTxOkfKmx8kWNvuc-FUtbSz_23_DAhGKe7W9spFKLXAtkpTBqM8Dt6kQrv-rS69Hi3FheL3fays2xTeVUvWR7g5UyLHnFA0frGk1BC12GYdOSRn9lbaJB-uH0htiLPJMrc9cSRsIgk5Dx7jg9K8rJVfG43lkeAWxTgcolNscW9KO2UZjKT8GMbYAFgFvu2TaMoLH8LBA5p2pm6VNYRsQK3QGjCsze1TOv2yIbCazmDwCHmjiQxNDf6LHP35msyiXo3CxuWs9Y8DQvJjvj10kWaspRNlWHKjS5w9Y0KLuIkhQKOxgaDziG290v4zBmTi-i7OfDz-foqIqKzC9wTbn9i_uU87GRitmrNAJdzRRsaTW5VQu_XX_5gCN8XCoNyu5RWWVGTsjJuyezz1_NpFa903Uj2TnFqnL1wJ-RZiFAAd2Bdut-G1pdQtdQihsq2dx_BjtmtGC3KZRyylO1t2c12dhfb0rStq4v8pg46ciOcdtT_1qm85IgUmGd7AmgLxCFPb0xnxWZvr26G-oXSqrQdjKA1zNIInSowiHcbUO2O8S5LRJVR6vQiEg0fbGXw4vqJYEn917tnzHMh8r0xom8BLKMvoFDelk6wbEeNq8w8Eyu2ouGjEMIvvJcb2az2AKQ1uE_7gdatfKG2QdvfdSBRSc35MQ=w498-h80-no
    Elvenshae
  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    Nips wrote: »
    You guys and all your Curse stuff. It sounds like so much fun, but I'd have an impossible time getting buy-in from my group (short of railroading).

    So here I am, beginning to work on my group's upcoming session for Saturday, thinking: "How do I effectively, foreshadowed but not signal-flare announced, attack them with just enough dragons?"

    Sometimes I wish I'd stuck to modules instead of going homebrew...

    I dunno but you should be playing Dragonlance so you can have your tinker gnomes build a giant robot

    Nips
  • zekebeauzekebeau Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Nips wrote: »
    You guys and all your Curse stuff. It sounds like so much fun, but I'd have an impossible time getting buy-in from my group (short of railroading).

    So here I am, beginning to work on my group's upcoming session for Saturday, thinking: "How do I effectively, foreshadowed but not signal-flare announced, attack them with just enough dragons?"

    Sometimes I wish I'd stuck to modules instead of going homebrew...

    I dunno but you should be playing Dragonlance so you can have your tinker gnomes build a giant robot

    Tried that, but apparently no matter how many Legendary dragon skulls I gave them they never built a giant robot dragon for me 😡

    Nipsoverride367
  • chosenofsotekchosenofsotek Registered User regular
    zekebeau wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Nips wrote: »
    You guys and all your Curse stuff. It sounds like so much fun, but I'd have an impossible time getting buy-in from my group (short of railroading).

    So here I am, beginning to work on my group's upcoming session for Saturday, thinking: "How do I effectively, foreshadowed but not signal-flare announced, attack them with just enough dragons?"

    Sometimes I wish I'd stuck to modules instead of going homebrew...

    I dunno but you should be playing Dragonlance so you can have your tinker gnomes build a giant robot

    Tried that, but apparently no matter how many Legendary dragon skulls I gave them they never built a giant robot dragon for me 😡

    Sounds like you need new players :P

  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    Time for more Curse of Strahd!
    Last time I posted, we'd just saved Arabelle from being drowned in the river after having been DM ex machina'd free from the hags' clutches. The following is the combination of two short sessions that we've had since.

    We decided that our next course of action should be to return the girl to the Vistani and also bring the tied-up would-be drowner Bluto to them. We decide to cut around the edge of Vallaki because Arabelle seems uncomfortable venturing into the city walls, so instead we have a minor encounter with some giant spiders. We kill several and scare off the rest, and make it to the Vistani camp without further incident. We return Arabelle to her father and uncle, who proceed to lash Bluto to the tent center pole and begin whipping him. The party is divided because something is clearly wrong with this dude, but also he did attempt to murder a helpless little girl. One of the party members is rewarded with her choice from the Vistani treasures, and selects a chest filled with gold. There was a throne there, but for some reason she didn't feel like that was worth selecting, and I'm a little sore about that. We questioned the Vistani and learned a couple things:

    1. There's been a lot of wolves and werewolves about recently. Vallaki recently had a big hunt to cull some. We also learned more about the werewolf curse. As it happens, one of the party members was bitten during the first session (before I joined). He pulled out a silver coin and discovered it gave him a stinging sensation when held, so... we've got a werewolf in the party now, it seems. He hasn't told any of us yet.
    2. Arabelle's grandmother is Madame Eva, the fortuneteller. That gives us a better idea of how she might end up being our ally. As we left, she gave us the following cryptic message: "You'll like the mad mage, but it's dangerous near the coffins." Basically she's full-on "creepy little girl from a horror movie" but at least she's our creepy little girl from a horror movie. The plan I intend to offer to the party is use her like a compass, pointing us in the direction of threats we can handle, so we don't get in another hag situation.

    Then we took a little trip to speak with an elf named Kasimir on the outskirts of camp, who gave us some more info. He had a sister who wanted to hook up with Strahd, so he and his people killed her, and as retaliation Strahd killed all their women and children. He also insinuated that the Vistani, to whom the remainder of his people are currently beholden, are serving as spies for Strahd, so we should be very careful about what we tell them. He mentioned a temple with contents inside that might be able to revive his sister, but as much as told us it's out of our league right now. My warlock Leopold was very sympathetic to Kasimir, as the only reason he's here is to rescue his own sister, Cecilia. However, he's pretty adamant that they not bring him along to said temple until they're certain Cece is alive, because if someone's sister is going to be revived, it's gonna be his.

    Anyway, we spent the night in the Vistani camp uneventfully, then departed early the next morning. On our way into town, we saw a bunch of abandoned houses. Leo warned the group that his first night in Barovia he'd broken into a couple of abandoned houses, finding one infested with zombies, and thus instructed that we should all be wary of these. Mandalay the Dragonborn Paladin decided that he should try to use his divine sense to spy if these houses were similarly infested, but forgot about the whole "not in full cover" requirement. Leopold decided that this would be the perfect opportunity for a prank, and used a sleight-of-handed Minor Illusion to make a moaning zombie sound emanate from the nearest house. His plan was to let Mandalay stumble about in the darkness for a minute before using his Mage Hand to grab his shoulder and spook him, thus eliciting delight from all.

    What actually happened was there was a vampire spawn in the house. Apparently the DM rolled really poorly (or really well, I guess?) on the encounter table. It wasn't the easiest fight, but we did manage to prevail with minor injuries. But Leo is absolutely not going to tell Mandalay about the intended prank now.

    Nipsoverride367
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