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Rocksteady's [Suicide Squad] and WB Montreal's [Gotham Knights]

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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    They're definitely a lot less mainstream than the JLA. Someone at WB seems to have a thing for them though, and they keep trying to make them bigger than they are.

    The David Ayer SS movie was okay, but entirely forgettable. It had a huge A-List cast and I saw it in the theaters, but I can't tell you anything about it. I didn't hate it, but it also left zero lasting impression.

    The James Gunn one was better and more memorable, but it was mostly just letting James Gunn loose with no filter and allowing him to do whatever he wanted to do. The fact that it was also a SS movie was relatively inconsequential. It was the James Gunn Show full of James Gunn Wacky Shenanigans.


    Over on the Marvel Comics side, they have a SS equivalent called the Thunderbolts, which is a team of Villains and/or Former-Villains coerced into doing goodguy things. And Disney/Marvel Studios tried to get a Thunderbolts movie going, but I'm pretty sure that idea has fizzled out and been canned.

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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Over on the Marvel Comics side, they have a SS equivalent called the Thunderbolts, which is a team of Villains and/or Former-Villains coerced into doing goodguy things. And Disney/Marvel Studios tried to get a Thunderbolts movie going, but I'm pretty sure that idea has fizzled out and been canned.

    Nope, they're doing it, it just got delayed because of the pandemic.

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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    Oh nice. I'm actually rooting for that one to succeed because I liked the cast of actors/characters that they had for it. From what I read, it was going to have Baron Zemo from the Captain America and Falcon/Winter Soldier stuff, it was going to have Florence Pugh's character from Black Widow, it was going to have General Ross, but I think William Hurt died recently and had to be replaced? Who is playing Ross now? is it Harrison Ford? And I think it was going to have Sebastian Stan as Bucky Barnes / Winter Soldier.

    Anyway, I actually want to see Thunderbolts succeed.

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    -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    They they’ve done promo stuff already, including announcing the team lineup and William Hurts replacement as Ross

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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Oh nice. I'm actually rooting for that one to succeed because I liked the cast of actors/characters that they had for it. From what I read, it was going to have Baron Zemo from the Captain America and Falcon/Winter Soldier stuff, it was going to have Florence Pugh's character from Black Widow, it was going to have General Ross, but I think William Hurt died recently and had to be replaced? Who is playing Ross now? is it Harrison Ford? And I think it was going to have Sebastian Stan as Bucky Barnes / Winter Soldier.

    Anyway, I actually want to see Thunderbolts succeed.

    Zemo's not in. It's Bucky, US Agent, Black Widow & Dad, Taskmaster, Ghost (from Ant-Man 2), and yeah, Harrison Ford as Ross.

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    MgcwMgcw Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    I'm wishing for ALL their demises, so that's why.

    Yes and Lucascraft has said the same in D4 threads. Live services aren't allowed to exist.

    It's not that they're not allowed to exist. It's the way that most of them do exist is greedy, business first, gamers second thinking.

    They start with the question of "how can we make a ton of money?" and then they develop a game around doing that. Rather than starting from a question of "what's the most fun video game we can make?"

    Maximum fun and maximum profit are pretty much incompatible ideas. One is consumer friendly and the other is business friendly. As a consumer, I prefer the former.

    So when I talk about how I hate GaaS and live service, it's because all these games that have come out in the past 10 years have been money-first cash grabs, rather than being about the fun. It's also the same reason why 10,000 games industry workers lost their jobs last year, for no damn reason. Because all of these big publishers are run by business men who don't care about fun, and don't care about the lives of the people they are hurting when they do mass layoffs to make their quarterly earnings calls look good.


    There is a world out there where GaaS is not the terrible, greedy. horrible monstrosity that it is. But that world is not the one we live in.

    They've done a really, really shitty job of making this game's basis "how can we make a ton of money" when the only thing you can buy is a couple of skins per character and their only plan for seasons is a paid cosmetic battle pass with free characters and content. They've also done a really shitty job in selling copies at all and the game is DoA no matter what they do at this point. But, if it had been successful there would be nothing in this game I consider predatory. If you consider paying for skins predatory that is totally fine and I will not say you are wrong to do so.

    I just don't agree with you that Rocksteady made this horrible abomination of a game where everything is in service of making money. On top of that, for me, this game isn't like Redfall, Anthem or Avengers, it's actually a good game with super-solid, incredibly fun gameplay and a very well thought-out loot system with only a couple of things I would change.

    I played all of those at some point or another just to give them a chance, after things had fallen through, and enjoyed nothing about any of them except some of the character combat design in Avengers. My problem with Avengers is what most people that have played this and don't like it complain about for SSKJTL, the fact that while the character design might be fun, actually playing them in the game is not fun because the enemies and stuff are really boring. For me, SSKTJL does not have that problem and is a blast to play even with literally no objective other than "do better next time", much like Arkham Challenge maps. Redfall is an unplayable, buggy mess where the base game doesn't even function.

    E:All I am saying is that it is ridiculous to be so unfair to this game and to assume that there are a bunch of things in it when that is not the state of the game as it actually exists. If someone doesn't like it for a bunch of the things that are or aren't in it, that is totally fine. If someone doesn't like it because of what it represents or whatever other thing I think that is extremely unkind to a developer everyone claims to want to see succeed.
    Yup it's kind of amazing how many companies are not realizing this point. It's not lack of money that players have. It's "Time". I had a hard enough time devoting spare time to any other game, even single player games when I was peak into World of Warcraft for example, and that was when I had way more free time during my college days (god i'm old). For most adults, we have even less and the thought of trying to juggle all the daily/weekly login requirements most of the current GAAS requires just turns me off to the whole thing entirely.

    I know nobody's played this game, but there's literally nothing trapping you into playing SSKJTL for hours and hours on end. There is one daily in the game and it doesn't give you anything that makes it remotely worth doing. There's no weekly anything, no timers, no lockouts, nothing. The gear curve is a flat line. The 'highest' gear in the game does not have better stats, the "tier 1" Bane gear has the same stats as the "tier 3" Bane gear, except for the set bonuses which are not inherently better, you're able to mix and match them and get multiple bonuses depending on how you want to build. The game throws stuff at you, once you get to "tier 3" you pretty much have every gun or piece of equipment you can use for that in the span of 2-3 maps, and then you can custom reroll everything on all of those pieces into whatever you want to have on it. And then if you change your mind you can re-roll them into something else entirely. You can easily re-roll the stats on your gear into whatever stats possible in the game. It's the least grindy loot game I've ever played.

    Mgcw on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited February 14
    Mgcw wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    I'm wishing for ALL their demises, so that's why.

    Yes and Lucascraft has said the same in D4 threads. Live services aren't allowed to exist.

    It's not that they're not allowed to exist. It's the way that most of them do exist is greedy, business first, gamers second thinking.

    They start with the question of "how can we make a ton of money?" and then they develop a game around doing that. Rather than starting from a question of "what's the most fun video game we can make?"

    Maximum fun and maximum profit are pretty much incompatible ideas. One is consumer friendly and the other is business friendly. As a consumer, I prefer the former.

    So when I talk about how I hate GaaS and live service, it's because all these games that have come out in the past 10 years have been money-first cash grabs, rather than being about the fun. It's also the same reason why 10,000 games industry workers lost their jobs last year, for no damn reason. Because all of these big publishers are run by business men who don't care about fun, and don't care about the lives of the people they are hurting when they do mass layoffs to make their quarterly earnings calls look good.


    There is a world out there where GaaS is not the terrible, greedy. horrible monstrosity that it is. But that world is not the one we live in.

    They've done a really, really shitty job of making this game's basis "how can we make a ton of money" when the only thing you can buy is a couple of skins per character and their only plan for seasons is a paid cosmetic battle pass with free characters and content. They've also done a really shitty job in selling copies at all and the game is DoA no matter what they do at this point. But, if it had been successful there would be nothing in this game I consider predatory. If you consider paying for skins predatory that is totally fine and I will not say you are wrong to do so.

    Personally I 100% agree with everything you wrote. I suspect that what happened in that year to now was a huge change in the way they were doing the "live service" part of the game. It explains why nothing really seems to be overly different from the first awful reveal - you still jump around shooting purple pimples for a majority of missions. I think they saw the backlash and changed what the service model was going to feel like, in the hope it might save the criticism and similar - which it didn't. Not that having a different more predatory live service element would have saved the game in any way.
    On top of that, for me, this game isn't like Redfall, Anthem or Avengers, it's actually a good game with super-solid, incredibly fun gameplay and a very well thought-out loot system with only a couple of things I would change.

    I think Avengers is actually well worth defending. For one thing, unlike Suicide Squad, they actually put effort into making every hero feel and play substantially differently. The Hulk doesn't run around with an assault rifle in Avengers as a good example. The single player story of Avengers was also great quality, showed a lot of respect for the material and Ms Marvel is just fucking adorable. It's all the shitty repeated live service stuff at the end of the game down that truly let it down. Suicide Squad I think has exactly the same issue there, with a decent single player story for 10-15 hours, but then the garbage live service stuff at the end that ALSO compromised getting a full complete story being a huge let down.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    MgcwMgcw Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Mgcw wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    I'm wishing for ALL their demises, so that's why.

    Yes and Lucascraft has said the same in D4 threads. Live services aren't allowed to exist.

    It's not that they're not allowed to exist. It's the way that most of them do exist is greedy, business first, gamers second thinking.

    They start with the question of "how can we make a ton of money?" and then they develop a game around doing that. Rather than starting from a question of "what's the most fun video game we can make?"

    Maximum fun and maximum profit are pretty much incompatible ideas. One is consumer friendly and the other is business friendly. As a consumer, I prefer the former.

    So when I talk about how I hate GaaS and live service, it's because all these games that have come out in the past 10 years have been money-first cash grabs, rather than being about the fun. It's also the same reason why 10,000 games industry workers lost their jobs last year, for no damn reason. Because all of these big publishers are run by business men who don't care about fun, and don't care about the lives of the people they are hurting when they do mass layoffs to make their quarterly earnings calls look good.


    There is a world out there where GaaS is not the terrible, greedy. horrible monstrosity that it is. But that world is not the one we live in.

    They've done a really, really shitty job of making this game's basis "how can we make a ton of money" when the only thing you can buy is a couple of skins per character and their only plan for seasons is a paid cosmetic battle pass with free characters and content. They've also done a really shitty job in selling copies at all and the game is DoA no matter what they do at this point. But, if it had been successful there would be nothing in this game I consider predatory. If you consider paying for skins predatory that is totally fine and I will not say you are wrong to do so.

    Personally I 100% agree with everything you wrote. I suspect that what happened in that year to now was a huge change in the way they were doing the "live service" part of the game. It explains why nothing really seems to be overly different from the first awful reveal - you still jump around shooting purple pimples for a majority of missions. I think they saw the backlash and changed what the service model was going to feel like, in the hope it might save the criticism and similar - which it didn't. Not that having a different more predatory live service element would have saved the game in any way.
    On top of that, for me, this game isn't like Redfall, Anthem or Avengers, it's actually a good game with super-solid, incredibly fun gameplay and a very well thought-out loot system with only a couple of things I would change.

    I think Avengers is actually well worth defending. For one thing, unlike Suicide Squad, they actually put effort into making every hero feel and play substantially differently. The Hulk doesn't run around with an assault rifle in Avengers as a good example. The single player story of Avengers was also great quality, showed a lot of respect for the material and Ms Marvel is just fucking adorable. It's all the shitty repeated live service stuff at the end of the game down that truly let it down. Suicide Squad I think has exactly the same issue there, with a decent single player story for 10-15 hours, but then the garbage live service stuff at the end that ALSO compromised getting a full complete story being a huge let down.

    I probably didn't play enough Avengers to be fair to it, only the campaign. Maybe the time spent on making every character uniquely different would have been better served giving them a gameplay environment to thrive in. I honestly feel like Suicide Squad has that. Everyone might shoot guns, however, to me, they actually feel very different in how they approach doing so. I don't know, I feel like the Arkham characters all feel quite different in combat challenge maps despite everyone punching people in the face. I think that feeling of samey-ness is just inherent to the fact that is a 3rd person shooter, and you can say they should have made it not that and I would probably have more fun with that theoretical game, but they made this one. I also think maybe it is just not possible to do in a multiplayer game. For instance, Gotham Knights was trying to do that, but you have to severely limit what you can do when the enemies have to be trying to kill 4 different players with Arkham Batman's baseline capabilities. I actually think the problems with these games that people have all stem from that kind of design conundrum and not the fact that they're GaaS.

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    -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Oh nice. I'm actually rooting for that one to succeed because I liked the cast of actors/characters that they had for it. From what I read, it was going to have Baron Zemo from the Captain America and Falcon/Winter Soldier stuff, it was going to have Florence Pugh's character from Black Widow, it was going to have General Ross, but I think William Hurt died recently and had to be replaced? Who is playing Ross now? is it Harrison Ford? And I think it was going to have Sebastian Stan as Bucky Barnes / Winter Soldier.

    Anyway, I actually want to see Thunderbolts succeed.

    Zemo's not in. It's Bucky, US Agent, Black Widow & Dad, Taskmaster, Ghost (from Ant-Man 2), and yeah, Harrison Ford as Ross.

    The Harrison Ford thing annoys the shit out of me. I get he's a bankable name but he's not really giving his best effort these days, and he's 81. How long do they expect to actually have him around.

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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited February 14
    Peak CCUs on Steam has fallen to just 2.5k and only around 1k right now. I think this puts it as one of the worst live service launches for its budget for a long time.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    This game is making Avengers look like an absolute success.

    3DS Friend Code - 1032-1293-2997
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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Money is money but I'm surprised Ford is so quick to join another big budget Disney thing

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    ZavianZavian universal peace sounds better than forever war Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Oh nice. I'm actually rooting for that one to succeed because I liked the cast of actors/characters that they had for it. From what I read, it was going to have Baron Zemo from the Captain America and Falcon/Winter Soldier stuff, it was going to have Florence Pugh's character from Black Widow, it was going to have General Ross, but I think William Hurt died recently and had to be replaced? Who is playing Ross now? is it Harrison Ford? And I think it was going to have Sebastian Stan as Bucky Barnes / Winter Soldier.

    Anyway, I actually want to see Thunderbolts succeed.

    Zemo's not in. It's Bucky, US Agent, Black Widow & Dad, Taskmaster, Ghost (from Ant-Man 2), and yeah, Harrison Ford as Ross.

    zemo not being in a thunderbolts movie makes me really sad. like, in the comics, up until Dark Reign, the thunderbolts was basically a baron zemo comic

    it seems the MCU thunderbolts movie is more of a stealth hulk movie than comics thunderbolts

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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Brainiac 8 wrote: »
    This game is making Avengers look like an absolute success.

    Don't forget, Avengers managed to top the sales chart its launch month.

    I know sales figures aren't the only thing for these types of games, but I'm extremely curious how Suicide Squad will do its first month.

    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Brainiac 8 wrote: »
    This game is making Avengers look like an absolute success.

    Don't forget, Avengers managed to top the sales chart its launch month.

    I know sales figures aren't the only thing for these types of games, but I'm extremely curious how Suicide Squad will do its first month.

    It'll do fine sales-wise, but it won't make All The Money, so it'll be shitcanned sooner rathen than later.

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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote: »
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Brainiac 8 wrote: »
    This game is making Avengers look like an absolute success.

    Don't forget, Avengers managed to top the sales chart its launch month.

    I know sales figures aren't the only thing for these types of games, but I'm extremely curious how Suicide Squad will do its first month.

    It'll do fine sales-wise, but it won't make All The Money, so it'll be shitcanned sooner rathen than later.

    I'm guessing it'll chart due to all the ads but won't top it.

    Though sales won't doom it - if it dies it'll be because people didn't go crazy buying new fins for King Shark or whatever. Same thing that doomed Avengers and Anthem.

    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    It was a tough month to release into. The release calendar is stacked.

    And it is directly competing with Helldivers 2. They're not 100% the same demographic, but there's probably around 80% crossover. Both are co-op third person shooters. And Helldivers is blowing up right now on both PSN and Steam. So I'm sure that is affecting both the sales numbers and player numbers on those platforms.

    It's also competing with runaway hit Palworld, which released in January and is still going strong, and is currently part of Gamepass.

    I know the game was already delayed multiple times, and the game has to release sometime, but releasing into this exact window of time feels like it was a huge blunder in planning. Of course, hindsight is 20/20 and nobody saw Palworld coming, and even Helldivers is definitely a sleeper hit.

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    Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    edited February 16
    So apparently there is a big hubbub about the fact that Rocksteady have raised the prices on some of the mtx...

    https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideSquadGaming/comments/1arj2cp/complain_about_microtransactions_being_1100/

    Brainiac 8 on
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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Brainiac 8 wrote: »
    So apparently there is a big hubbub about the fact that Rocksteady have raised the prices on some of the mtx...

    https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideSquadGaming/comments/1arj2cp/complain_about_microtransactions_being_1100/

    ...may as well soak the few people playing? That's a smart way to net a sweet $47.

    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Confirmation from the horses mouth that the game has done very poorly. No figure was given but previous information showed it was really dire.

    Thankfully there was no "we are burying Rocksteady as a tax write off" in there. When I last looked it was sub 1000ccus and had a peak of any 900ish. Absolute disaster.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    RaynagaRaynaga Registered User regular
    Viking wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Mgcw wrote: »
    I genuinely think this game is incredibly fun to play.

    I really, honestly enjoy this game a ton. But you're not wrong.

    The stuff people complain about for demonizing it as a horrible live service game is not even present in the game. There's no loot boxes you can buy, there's literally nothing you can buy except a couple of overpriced skins.

    There's no FOMO daily mechanics or weekly quest grinds or timers or anything like that.

    There are literally no engagement hooks to make you play the game for hours of grinding other than "do you wanna get a better score/enjoy playing more", much like the challenge maps from every Arkham game.


    It's totally fine if you're enjoying the game. Everybody has different tastes and different tolerances for this stuff. And if you're enjoying SS:KtJL then good on you.

    But I do think you're maybe viewing the game through some rose tinted glasses, and very clearly you're ignoring the things that they are doing that are egregious and bad for the customer.

    Saying "it's not as bad as these other games" is not a good defense. Bad is a continuum, and maybe SS:KtJL falls lower than a lot of other big games in this space, but that doesn't absolve it either.

    Here's some issues with SS:KtJL:

    - Always online, even though the game supports a singleplayer mode. It doesn't matter that tons of other games do this. It's bad for the consumer and it's bad for game preservation.
    - They sold extra premium skins with the epic edition of the game, but then they locked the color variants of those skins behind an additional paywall. What a slap in the face to their dedicated paying customers.
    - The story does not have a conclusive/satisfying ending because the game is designed to be played forever as a live service. Meaning the version of the game you bought at launch is not a complete product. It's a product with an IOU for more to come later, with the hopes that the WB executives don't kill it early.


    This isn't an exhaustive list of the sins of this game. It's just a sampling to illustrate the point that this game is still fundamentally flawed and definitely has many of the problems that most/all of the games in this vein have.

    ok but why this game?
    why are people champing at the bit for it to fail when its not even close to the worst example?

    I spent three games-worth of time with one of the best translations of the character ever made, and then this game proceeds to shit all over that.

    That would be my personal answer to this question.

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    TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    Raynaga wrote: »
    Viking wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Mgcw wrote: »
    I genuinely think this game is incredibly fun to play.

    I really, honestly enjoy this game a ton. But you're not wrong.

    The stuff people complain about for demonizing it as a horrible live service game is not even present in the game. There's no loot boxes you can buy, there's literally nothing you can buy except a couple of overpriced skins.

    There's no FOMO daily mechanics or weekly quest grinds or timers or anything like that.

    There are literally no engagement hooks to make you play the game for hours of grinding other than "do you wanna get a better score/enjoy playing more", much like the challenge maps from every Arkham game.


    It's totally fine if you're enjoying the game. Everybody has different tastes and different tolerances for this stuff. And if you're enjoying SS:KtJL then good on you.

    But I do think you're maybe viewing the game through some rose tinted glasses, and very clearly you're ignoring the things that they are doing that are egregious and bad for the customer.

    Saying "it's not as bad as these other games" is not a good defense. Bad is a continuum, and maybe SS:KtJL falls lower than a lot of other big games in this space, but that doesn't absolve it either.

    Here's some issues with SS:KtJL:

    - Always online, even though the game supports a singleplayer mode. It doesn't matter that tons of other games do this. It's bad for the consumer and it's bad for game preservation.
    - They sold extra premium skins with the epic edition of the game, but then they locked the color variants of those skins behind an additional paywall. What a slap in the face to their dedicated paying customers.
    - The story does not have a conclusive/satisfying ending because the game is designed to be played forever as a live service. Meaning the version of the game you bought at launch is not a complete product. It's a product with an IOU for more to come later, with the hopes that the WB executives don't kill it early.


    This isn't an exhaustive list of the sins of this game. It's just a sampling to illustrate the point that this game is still fundamentally flawed and definitely has many of the problems that most/all of the games in this vein have.

    ok but why this game?
    why are people champing at the bit for it to fail when its not even close to the worst example?

    I spent three games-worth of time with one of the best translations of the character ever made, and then this game proceeds to shit all over that.

    That would be my personal answer to this question.

    And then proceeds to do what everybody was creamin their jeans for, the Justice League, PITCH PERFECT AND EXTREMELY WELL, before unceremoniously making them assholes in order to be killed off by a bunch of unlikeable assholes.

    It’s like if the head chef of a 3* restaurant makes you the best kobe beef filet mingon ever made, something everyone was (insufferably) asking them to do, then personally came to your table, takes a shit on it, and says “eat up now wheres my fuckin money???”

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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    That and the fact that it's a hugely high-profile game hitting at the time "we're sick of live service games" hit a fever pitch. Plus it was in development for seven goddamn years.

    I've said it before, but I'm sure the entire industry had an eye on how this one did.

    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    That and the fact that it's a hugely high-profile game hitting at the time "we're sick of live service games" hit a fever pitch. Plus it was in development for seven goddamn years.

    I've said it before, but I'm sure the entire industry had an eye on how this one did.

    The industry will look at Suicide Squad and compare it to the smash hits of Palworld and Helldivers 2 and make some really arbitrary, stupid decisions about why the latter were hits while the former flopped.

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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    Yeah, what we're actually going to get is a bunch of AAA knockoffs of Helldivers 2, with push and pull invasion maps with very little story.

    I'm not knocking Helldivers. They found a formula that works for them and it found a willing audience. But what all these C-Suite executives are going to get from their analysis is that it's okay to skimp on story and lore and just deliver a bunch of replayable missions with the only context being an invasion map. In 3-5 years we're going to see a ton of copycats with buzzwords like "deployments" and "invasion maps" and "neverending conflict." And they will completely miss all the other stuff that makes Helldivers so great, such as the the over-the-top patriotism and humor, and top tier gunplay and engaging team dynamics and all the other positive things you can say about it.

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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Yeah, what we're actually going to get is a bunch of AAA knockoffs of Helldivers 2, with push and pull invasion maps with very little story.

    I'm not knocking Helldivers. They found a formula that works for them and it found a willing audience. But what all these C-Suite executives are going to get from their analysis is that it's okay to skimp on story and lore and just deliver a bunch of replayable missions with the only context being an invasion map. In 3-5 years we're going to see a ton of copycats with buzzwords like "deployments" and "invasion maps" and "neverending conflict." And they will completely miss all the other stuff that makes Helldivers so great, such as the the over-the-top patriotism and humor, and top tier gunplay and engaging team dynamics and all the other positive things you can say about it.

    Correct. One of the things that's exciting about Helldivers 2 is that... not every game is like it. Actually, very few modern games are like it. And they didn't make it this way because the concept of invading planets or whatever is fun, it fits with the whole design of the lore and humor and etc. It's also using a lot of the logic from the original game, verbatim, so they've had practice designing a game in this way. The copycats will miss all of that nuance and just think "it's fun to grind for cosmetics and new weapons, the feel of those weapons and what you use them for basically doesn't matter!"

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    jdarksunjdarksun Struggler VARegistered User regular
    OK but see Helldivers 2 is fun and has very little "live service integration"

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    Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    3DS Friend Code - 1032-1293-2997
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    MgcwMgcw Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    OK but see Helldivers 2 is fun and has very little "live service integration"

    You can literally say the same about Suicide Squad. In fact, Suicide Squad has less live service elements than Helldivers. This is not a knock against Helldivers, it is minimal in that game and I enjoy it, just the fact that it is also extremely minimal in SSKTJL.

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    KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    I think the big issue with SSKTJL live service is that it feels like the story is not over bc of it.

    Now I think it's very cool that they're offering new characters and environments for free but also understand someone playing through the game and feeling like "wait ..I have to Wait for the ending?"

    Specially when
    It looks like the Justice League is returning in some way

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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    Yeah, I brought that up earlier. The game is unfinished right now. The release day version of the game does not have a conclusive ending. It ends with a promise of more to come. And that promise is very likely contingent upon the WB Games home office allowing Rocksteady to invest more time/money/resources into a game that is very clearly dead on arrival. 13k all-time peak users on Steam is dismal for a Triple-A game from an industry leading studio. Now... obviously console is a much bigger piece of their player base, and we don't have access to Sony or Microsoft numbers. But I don't think the game is doing great there, either.

    The fact is, shooting purple zits on oversized robotic monsters didn't resonate with people during the gameplay preview a year ago. And they delayed it. And the final product that was released continued to not resonate with players.

    They invested hundreds of millions of dollars, and hundreds of thousands of developer time into making a game that people just didn't want to play. Even the people who did buy it, and who did want to give it a chance have already dropped off significantly. Again... Steam numbers represent the smallest part of the customer base, but last I looked, there were only about 600 concurrent users playing on Steam. Which is bleak. Very bleak.

    I'm not trying to convince anyone not to like the game. If you enjoy it, that's great! But the truth is that there are millions of gamers out there, and the extreme vast majority of them overwhelmingly voted with their wallets and said "I am not interested in this game." Myself included. I would have loved nothing more than to have my pre-release judgements be unfounded after the game came out. But the product that I've seen on display is not a product I have any desire to play. Definitely not for $70. Probably not even for free. I honestly don't think I'd even play it if they gave it to me for free on PS+. And that's because there's simply too many other good games out there, and I don't want to invest my time playing a game that just doesn't look fun to play.

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    Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    I would be surprised if this game ever gets its actual ending considering how poorly it is doing.

    The fact that the game's actual ending is what is being locked away by the live service garbage is just icing on a already horrible cake.

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    KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    I think there's no way they get 13 seasons out but will truncate them to get an ending out to players to try and salvage goodwill.

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    Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    I hope that they do something like that for those who are playing and are vested in the story. Would be a best case scenario.

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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    I don't think 13 seasons was ever in the cards. Prior to launch, Rocksteady said they had 5 seasons worth of content planned. So my impression is that they were planning on releasing multiple versions of the Brianiac boss fight per season.

    Even if that's the case, there's no guarantee that they're going to be allowed by the home office to continue pumping resources into a game that has probably sold less than a million units. Maybe even less than 500k.

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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited February 29
    I don't think it's that dire, but I would put the cap at around 2 million units or so based on what I know of the sales of Tekken and Persona 3 reloaded that it was largely sandwiched between for a while when it initially came out. That number is nowhere near enough to have paid for the seven years of development and 100 million dollar marketing campaign they supposedly had. I think they'll get to season 1 being released and if that doesn't miraculously turn the ship around that's probably it frankly. Supposedly the offline mode is coming with season 1.

    Aegeri on
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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    It seems sort of obvious that 13 versions of the same villain is very boring. They could have just as easily said "He's running an Injustice League across the multiverse," and be non-committal about the size of said League. Maybe mention one or two characters for content you've already been developing. You could do like... Lobo and Mongol, just for example. Then people might be excited to see what that would be like. But the Live Service portion was poorly thought out to begin with.

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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    I don't think it's that dire, but I would put the cap at around 2 million units or so based on what I know of the sales of Tekken and Persona 3 reloaded that it was largely sandwiched between for a while when it initially came out. That number is nowhere near enough to have paid for the seven years of development and 100 million dollar marketing campaign they supposedly had. I think they'll get to season 1 being released and if that doesn't miraculously turn the ship around that's probably it frankly. Supposedly the offline mode is coming with season 1.

    It managed to hit #3 on the US video game charts last month. Which is really good! ...for a game that isn't dependent on people constantly spending money on it. Plus both Anthem and Avengers hit #1 their launch months.

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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    edited March 4
    Previous thoughts on Gotham Knights:
    Started Gotham Knights with bro, thanks to Gamepass + Game Streaming (he's playing on ye olde Xbox One and this is still working well for him). While not to the obnoxious length of Avengers, you still have to play about an hour or so to unlock co-op, for basically no reason. Avengers was like 2 to 2.5 hours before they deigned to turn on co-op, which was laughable in its thoughtlessness. Playing it in earnest, I would describe it as "notably worse combat and movement than every Arkham game" but not completely trash. There's a decent amount of co-op QOL that other games could learn from a bit. Like giving both players a waypoint to head towards a mission AND a generic waypoint to mark a point of interest. Meanwhile, Remnant 2's map does not let you mark shit. The ability to just split up and handle complete missions separately is also nice, as fighting together is a huge advantage, while soloing cases makes the map MUCH more efficient to clear out. I also like how the characters level together, in case you realize you HATE your character after an hour or so. The graphics, which I heard not very nice things about, are actually pretty fine? I didn't like the looks of the characters from screenshots, but in motion they look fine to me and I don't hate any of the voice acting (although... any returning character from Arkham is worse, just like the combat and traversal. Like that Batman... not for me.)

    End of nice things to say, the game also crashed on me (complete, to Xbox dashboard) three times in that first night of playing. That's that Arkham Origins level of jank I do NOT appreciate them still having. And I'm playing this nearly a year after launch, really no patch for that? Having Time Trials for the traversal move is an open exhibit on how those mechanics are VERY rough, I simply would not have done that if I made a system as iffy and just okay as this. Having two (very boring) attack moves total until momentum fills up really shows how much variety and interest Arkham built into a system that sounds similar on the surface. GK has a couple of moves that are interesting (throws, co-op moves, etc) but they are universally trapped behind "The enemy is just about to die AND is not a heavy enemy" which means they're exclusively for styling and provide essentially NO combat utility. The GIGANTIC impact of Arkham hits is very lacking here when you're punching a heavy enemy in his big fat belly for minute 3 or 4. And again, the game leans into the worst thing its combat is doing RIGHT AWAY by having you fight two big fat belly guys (one with shield, who is even MORE obnoxious) as a quite early on boss fight for the Harley case. You could say "use Momentum moves to speed it up!" but... ha ha, no no no. My main, starter attack move as Batgirl requires two or even three perks to make it really viable against these guys (don't interrupt, heavy guys specifically don't interrupt, and best of all break their charge). By this point in the game, you probably will have 1 of 3 of those perks, unless you bee lined them, knowing this was coming (you did not know this was coming). There is a momentum attack specifically designed to get these guys, though... that again, is gated behind encountering a set amount of a specific enemy type, meaning you will not have it, depending on how you got to this mission. With 2 players, the fight was sluggish but very doable, with one, it could easily be a game quitter.

    I've played much worse co-op games (I feel like Avengers is still worse than this) because I just enjoy co-op games that much, but I feel like this game pretty well deserved its MEH rating received at release.

    100% achievement complete (including the 2 DLC campaigns) thoughts on GK:
    My opinion did NOT improve. The extremely high level combat of the DLC shows how... sort of dumb and bad the whole gear game is. What it DOES do is show you how useful the element strikes can be on the opponents that become a never ending barrel of hit points and makes you get really comfortable with at least most of your Momentum moves (I'm sorry, some of each characters' moves are terrible duds). However, there's too many elements and it's unclear why you'd pick one over the other (example: isn't ice just better than concussion for enemies you can't throw? Why would you pick fire over poison, or vice versa?). And more importantly, you don't ACTUALLY get to pick one over the other, you need to select the next highest gear tier to keep up, so you'd better pick the element that just showed up on the extremely high level blueprint that just dropped. A new problem in DLC2 is that introducing an even higher rarity tier (Mythic over Legendary) makes you go broke for the first time, since lower level mats can easily run dry when they want something like 150k lowest tier mats and 55k common mats for one weapon. If they expected people to grind an earlier floor for mats (or go back to the main game to fill up), then they are very silly. No one completes a 30 floor DLC followed by a 15 floor + Boss Rush DLC by taking frequent breaks and going over gear meticulously. The only way through is just to smash it down as quickly as possible before the tedium and repetition destroys you. DLC1 having purely "looks like a cave" aesthetic for THIRTY floors was god awful. It also didn't help that the most unique objectives in it (defend the console, escort a moving device) were easily the worst and most annoying parts. DLC2 was a major improvement having three more lively tile sets and only 15 floors total... however tag teaming bosses was NOT a good fit for the combat system, at all. It turns the limited strategy already present in the boss encounters into a stupid chaotic mash fest where you just need to tick away at the boss' health bars in between killing about 20,000 ads for Momentum, the occasional mercy health pack, and mainly to get them out of your hair for the 6 seconds until a new wave spawns. The "story" of the two DLCs are not worth mentioning, unfortunately. DLC1: Starro is a loud mouth, descend 30 floors of random enemy groupings to shut him up. DLC2: The boss villains from the game (-Talia for some reason) have teamed up to do a prison breakout for/with the help of "KELVIN". Despite constantly mentioning Kelvin as if that is a character's name, it was never clear to me if that WAS a character of some kind, or if the villains were just memeing. The ongoing narration is much more interesting than the big nothing of DLC1, but it's also extremely "villain dialogue template." There isn't any interesting new lore or really funny quotes or anything. It's just "we wanted to escape, but the Gotham Knights are very annoying!"

    Specific achievement completion thoughts:
    -They have an achievement for max level (which does require New Game +), but not for "max out every skill", which is good because the latter seems to be broken. I've seen at least three different suggestions online for where the last skill point is supposed to come from, so I'm level 40 with gear powered at over 25,000... and am missing a skill unlock. Cool game design!
    -"Defeat 10 Man Bats" was a stupid achievement, requiring either hunting random encounters or doing a NG+ run till the last third of the game once you realize you missed it and need those to spawn again. Just... make the achievement for defeating as many Man Bats as you'd normally fight to beat the game...
    -Mod Fusion was extremely poorly explained, so I literally only did it for the achievement and then never again. You earn the next level up mods at an extremely high pace if you do the DLC, in any case. No reason to fiddle with them.
    -"Unlock every Knighthood skill on the skill tree" was also a bad achievement because of the problem with skill points mentioned earlier. You might have to spin up a second character to get this one if you level up "wrong" (there shouldn't be a way to level up wrong...)
    -Why was there an achievement for "do every bike race" but not "do every traversal time trial for one character"? Kind of goes against the logic in the way they listed these out.
    -Kill x enemy achievements are lame and this list is chock a block full of them. Guaranteed unlocks if you just do the DLC, but the fact that these achievements don't track progress AND there's no stats to check make these potentially more annoying than they have to be.

    Final thoughts: the DLCs were clearly designed as a way to make the high level gear and mods seem worthwhile, which they do to a certain extent, but it overall makes your opinion of the game lower, when you really dig into the numerous ways that combat is under-designed and deeply flawed. There's nothing like being surrounded by 5 different enemies that all have a "do this move before I will DEIGN to take any damage at all", with no Momentum power to use, and a console that you have to defend before the entire round fails to really make you think "maybe Avengers WAS better than this... damn, I don't know."

    shoeboxjeddy on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Did you have "Warner Brothers would learn absolutely nothing from Suicide Squad" on your bingo card?
    Warner Bros. Discovery CEO and President of Streaming and Games J.B. Perrette spoke about the company’s strategy during a recent Morgan Stanley event. He acknowledges the success of projects like the single-player Hogwarts Legacy, which managed to be last year’s best-selling game in the U.S., but says the business of AAA console releases can be “volatile.”

    “That’s a great business when you have a hit like (Hogwarts Legacy). It makes the year look amazing,” Perrette said. “Unfortunately, we also have disappointments — we just released Suicide Squad this quarter, which was not as strong. It just makes it very volatile.”

    Because I'm pretty certain everyone had that on their bingo card.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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