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Rocksteady's [Suicide Squad] and WB Montreal's [Gotham Knights]

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    edited March 6
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Did you have "Warner Brothers would learn absolutely nothing from Suicide Squad" on your bingo card?
    Warner Bros. Discovery CEO and President of Streaming and Games J.B. Perrette spoke about the company’s strategy during a recent Morgan Stanley event. He acknowledges the success of projects like the single-player Hogwarts Legacy, which managed to be last year’s best-selling game in the U.S., but says the business of AAA console releases can be “volatile.”

    “That’s a great business when you have a hit like (Hogwarts Legacy). It makes the year look amazing,” Perrette said. “Unfortunately, we also have disappointments — we just released Suicide Squad this quarter, which was not as strong. It just makes it very volatile.”

    Because I'm pretty certain everyone had that on their bingo card.

    Are they still insisting that SS isn't a live-service game? Because yeah, that means it failed because it's a triple A title, not because it's a live-service game that the people who play live-service games don't have enough time to devote to on top of the live-service games that they already play.

    Honestly, at what point do Warner Bros. brilliant business decisions leave them at a point where Disney just buys them?

    klemming on
    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    I think it's more likely that someone like Apple would buy them. Not Disney. There's no way the FTC and other global regulating bodies would allow Disney to control both Marvel and DC.

    There's a lot of bad/dumb CEOs out there in the games industry, because to them it's just a market to milk for cash. They're not gamers and they're not hobbyists, and they certainly don't care about "fun."

    Is it surprising that they somehow lumped SS:KtJL into the same bucket as Hogwarts Legacy? No. It's not surprising. Because they don't understand games or the market that they're in. But at the same time, it's baffling to me that the people running the industry can be so clueless about the very industry they're in.

    More and more, the games industry is shifting towards smaller studios with "AA" budgets and even smaller than that, like indies.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited March 6
    As far as games as a service go I don't think they'll ever truly go away simply because most companies already know they're a gamble and are just hoping they will be the next to hit the jackpot.

    And for the 10s of failures there is always that one that makes billions that they hyper focus on.

    So yeah they ain't going anywhere but I do think fewer people will be inclined to take that gamble

    Dragkonias on
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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    The extremely silly thing about this is that WB is claiming to be gunshy about AAA titles that aren't monetized just months after Hogwarts Legacy, a AAA game that isn't monetized, became the best-selling game in 2023, the first year-long best-selling game that isn't GTA or Call of Duty in FIFTEEN YEARS.

    I swear, between this, Coyote vs. Acme, and, well, everything else, everyone at WB's C-suite has the brain worms.

    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    I think it's more likely that someone like Apple would buy them. Not Disney. There's no way the FTC and other global regulating bodies would allow Disney to control both Marvel and DC.
    There are a hundred other reasons why the FTC would/should block something like this, but would they really give a damn about two comic book brands being under the same owner? It wouldn't be like the Microsoft/Activision thing where the stated concern was about exclusivity.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    I think WB might be right about something for the wrong reason or the not stated reason; but there is very low chance of them hitting the success of Hogwarts Legacy regularly/again. Hogwarts traded in a bunch saved up nostalgia for an IP that had not really ever gotten the AAA treatment. If the line must always go up people are expecting more Hogwarts numbers; I think that might be the reason they are looking to get out of that space

    PSN SeGaTai
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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited March 6
    Yeah I was gonna say the Harry Potter fandom is massive so of course if you make a half decent game off that IP it's gonna sell a ton.

    It was the same thing with Bandai Namco and Elden Ring sure the game itself was great but GRRM's name being attached to that while GoT was still at an all time hype did a lot to push the game and that isn't easy to duplicate.

    Dragkonias on
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    VontreVontre Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Yeah I was gonna say the Harry Potter fandom is massive so of course if you make a half decent game off that IP it's gonna sell a ton.

    It was the same thing with Bandai Namco and Elden Ring sure the game itself was great but GRRM's name being attached to that while GoT was still at an all time hype did a lot to push the game and that isn't easy to duplicate.

    This is a hell of a take. GRRM's involvement in Elden Ring is barely a footnote for the superfans. And Game of Thrones had been over for 3 years when it came out.

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Yeah, everyone I knew who was excited about Elden Ring didn't give a damn about GRRM being involved.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Also, it’s not like ASOIAF was doing so hot with the show ending on a bad note and Martin still unable to produce the next book because he’s busy on a spinoff show.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited March 6
    Vontre wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Yeah I was gonna say the Harry Potter fandom is massive so of course if you make a half decent game off that IP it's gonna sell a ton.

    It was the same thing with Bandai Namco and Elden Ring sure the game itself was great but GRRM's name being attached to that while GoT was still at an all time hype did a lot to push the game and that isn't easy to duplicate.

    This is a hell of a take. GRRM's involvement in Elden Ring is barely a footnote for the superfans. And Game of Thrones had been over for 3 years when it came out.

    It really isn't. I was around when Elden Ring was first announced. There were plenty of people who don't even play Souls-like games that were excited for it. A big reason for that being because of GRRM being attached to it .

    Also I am more or less repeating what Bamco said in a recent investor call to explain the year to year performance dip.
    klemming wrote: »
    Yeah, everyone I knew who was excited about Elden Ring didn't give a damn about GRRM being involved.

    Well once again you should probably consider your circle is more than likely full of people who would be considered hardcore gamers like you. I'm not really concerned with that group I'm thinking of the casual audience.

    "Superfans" are generally a very small percentage of any games playerbase and you aren't gonna get a big hit on those numbers alone.

    Dragkonias on
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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Citation needed for gamers being more excited for the involvement of a novelist over "the newest in a popular series of video games."

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited March 6
    Citation needed for gamers being more excited for the involvement of a novelist over "the newest in a popular series of video games."

    ...

    You know sometimes I wonder if people actually read the things I say or just want to be upset about the things they think I'm saying.

    Cause I am going out of my way to make of point of saying that I am talking about a more casual gaming audience that isn't into Souls game and I even conceded that it was a combination of GRRM and the game being a good product. I would also add one of the first high quality releases on the PS5.

    But for some reason I cannot understand all that seems to just whoosh right pass people.

    Like it really confuses me sometimes.

    Like using the name of the guy who at the time had his name attached to one of the biggest shows on TV to help push your product isn't even outlandish its Marketing 101.

    Dragkonias on
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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Citation needed for gamers being more excited for the involvement of a novelist over "the newest in a popular series of video games."

    ...

    You know sometimes I wonder if people actually read the things I say or just want to be upset about the things they think I'm saying.

    Cause I am going out of my way to make of point of saying that I am talking about a more casual gaming audience that isn't into Souls game and I even conceded that it was a combination of GRRM and the game being a good product. I would also add one of the first high quality releases on the PS5.

    But for some reason I cannot understand all that seems to just whoosh right pass people.

    Like it really confuses me sometimes.

    Like using the name of the guy who at the time had his name attached to one of the biggest shows on TV to help push your product isn't even outlandish its Marketing 101.

    People are specifically arguing what "of the time" is. Reminder, Game of Thrones POISONED its reputation completely in 2019. Elden Ring didn't come out until 2022. There were several newer, hotter things in media by the time the game actually came out. Announcing his involvement certainly helped with the pre-release hype period, but his luster was dramatically less by the time it could translate into sales. I read what you said, and disagree with it, I'm not sure why that makes you feel so bummed out.

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    VontreVontre Registered User regular
    edited March 7
    Also that. Your supposition is, I think, that attaching GRRM's name to something carries a lot of weight with "normies". I think that'd be really overblown for a core audience video game (this was not a free to play hyper-casual thing, you have to have a console or gaming PC and drop $60 cold to even play it). The context is different, the hype cycle isn't generated in the same way as book or film promotion. By far the most relevant factor is FromSoft's own rabid fanbase, which has been steadily accumulating due to their string of consistent high quality games over more than a decade. FromSoft itself has way more cachet in the gaming world than GRRM.

    What's more is the context of Elden Ring itself, which I really need to emphasize, is one of the least story-driven games in all of existence. Trailers for the game didn't even show a narrative so much as just vaguely gesture at a setting. It's definitely a "whoa cool" moment seeing his name in the press release early on, but you compared that to licensing Harry fucking Potter, and my god those two things could not be further apart in impact.

    On that note WB execs are sort of right they're not gonna see a AAA hit like Hogwart's Legacy reliably. It is the combination of gameplay and IP being a perfect match that really makes a licensed title take off, and from what I've seen on Twitch they fucking nailed it. The fantasy of being a wizard student at Hogwart's, independent of any mainline characters, is wildly appealing and an obvious winner. I don't think they have something else like that in the tank, and it's going to be at least 4 years between individual Hogwarts releases at their scale.

    E: The other thing about normie audience relations is that just because Game of Thrones is very well known, does not mean GRRM is. He's a guy in the credits, and not even an actor on screen to recognize. You have to be a big fan to really care all that much.

    Vontre on
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    VontreVontre Registered User regular
    Basically there is a vast, vast gulf between an actual Game of Thrones license and just attaching GRRM's name to something unrelated in a press release.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    I see, well I guess this is one of those situations where you can believe what you want and I can what I want cause I don't think either of us could prove it in any satisfactory manner.

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    AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    I have to admit a Hogwarts game of the quality of Hogwarts Legacy and live service would make all of the money. More likely all of the money x2.

    BUT!

    That is assuming they let the Devs do their thing instead of rushing them. Which I feel is not very likely.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
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    VontreVontre Registered User regular
    edited March 7
    It might... except that switching a single player game series to online is not easy or cheap. Not only is latency the unkillable boogey man you constantly have to deal with, a lot of the former tools and approaches don't really work. Nor the game designs.

    I guess it could be a... live service... single player game... which is just utter shit. There's no path here where you don't compromise in ways that critically impact quality and fun.

    Hogwart's Legacy 2 just being another single player box is by far the least risk. A ton of work is already done, you can reliably measure out the sales based on the previous title, the team already knows how to do it. They'd be better off doing that and simultaneously handing the Potter license to like ArenaNet or NCSoft or something to take a stab at an MMO. Immediately putting the golden goose into the oven when it still has a lot of eggs left in it is the sort of absolute dumbfuckery you would expect from WB so of course that's what will happen.

    Vontre on
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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    The actually safest thing to do would be to continue Harry Potter single player games and then spinoff multiple services at low cost and only fund ones that get interest (example: a Quidditch one along the lines of Rocket League, a wizard duel one with character classes that's a bit of Valorant, etc.) But WB has that habit of "copy the thing that seems popular, badly, but budget it like it will be MORE popular than the market leader."

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    DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    edited March 7
    Yea I definitely think some of you are underestimating the extra weight of GRRM there. Not that it wouldn't have sold gangbusters anyway, but it sold extra gangbusters.

    This alone was reported on everywhere, not just a press release, which in turn means the game was advertised and mentioned far more and in many more high profile places than it would have been otherwise.

    And mentioning the show constantly while ignoring the actual book's insane popularity seems a bit odd here! His name is right on the front of those 90million+ copies out there.

    But people have seemingly made up their mind about something that they cannot actually know so... *shrug*

    DemonStacey on
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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Gamers are illiterate, is the thing.

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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Gamers are illiterate, is the thing.

    How dare you, I'm very legitimate.

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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Suicide Squad is already 40% off on PSN.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Suicide Squad is already 40% off on PSN.

    Also on Steam

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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    We have some additional context for the sales of Suicide Squad:
    Outside of the Top Ten there's Suicide Squad: Kill The Justice League at No.12. We know the game performed below Warner Bros' expectations, but to place its performance in context, its opening five weeks are 33% lower than what Gotham Knights managed in 2022, and 61% lower than what Guardians of the Galaxy managed in 2021.

    That's simply Europe, excluding the UK, but it tracks with the numbers talked about elsewhere and the generally poor reception (such as the very low steam player count). Looks very much like Season 1 might just be the end of the game at this point, because it was mostly complete when Suicide Squad was released.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Geez, I didn't know GotG did that poorly. I'm sadder about that than either of the Batman-adjacent games, that game was excellent.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    GotG got Avengers stank all over it and it never recovered. Some people even thought it was an expansion pack to Avengers :/

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Live-service even spreads to infect single player games by reputation!

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    edited March 20
    Sometimes games get screwed by release timing. That kind of happened to Enshrouded recently. It was the biggest game during last year's Steam Next Fest, and broke tons of records for demo downloads, and got tons of positive press from major outlets like PC Gamer and such. And then it released like 2 weeks after Palworld and it's release was probably much smaller than it otherwise would have.

    Likewise, it happened twice to the poor dev teams at Guerilla Studios with Horizon 1 and 2. The first one released in the same week as Breath of the Wild, and the second one released like within 8 days or something of God of War Ragnarok. And it got completely overshadowed and forgotten both times.

    Other times, games are harmed by their marketing and are completely misunderstood. Like with Marvel's Midnight Suns. That game is more like Persona than anything. It's a PG-13 bromance sim where you get to hang and chill with Blade and Captain America and raise their friendship meters. But everyone just thought it was a collectible card game, because that's what was shown in trailers and previews.

    Other times, it's guilt by association, and sadly that's what happened with GotG. It came out too close to Avengers, and it was mislabeled and many completely wrong assumptions were made about it, and it basically slipped under the radar and is a lost gem.


    And then there are other games, like SS:KtJL, where it's kind of all of the above that hurt it. SS came out in the second busiest game month of the year, and released up against Helldivers, Palworld, and some other good stuff too. It also wasn't helped by its marketing. Everyone saw that infamous Summer Games Fest trailer with the purple zits and awful looking combat, and the game got pre-judged into oblivion. And it obviously did not recover. And finally, it has guilt by association of being a live service in a time period where live services are dying left and right, and people are tired of battlepasses, currency conversions, and watered down gameplay for the sake of multiplayer set-piece arenas.

    SS basically got the triple whammy.

    Lucascraft on
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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    I know opinions here are
    Aegeri wrote: »
    GotG got Avengers stank all over it and it never recovered. Some people even thought it was an expansion pack to Avengers :/

    Well, it kinda recovered - I hear word of mouth got a bunch of people to buy it when it got fire-saled. Which is good! But it brought in way less revenue than if it actually sold decently before the sale.

    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
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    JMan711JMan711 6'8" weighs a f*&#ing ton He's coming, he's coming, he's comingRegistered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Likewise, it happened twice to the poor dev teams at Guerilla Studios with Horizon 1 and 2. The first one released in the same week as Breath of the Wild, and the second one released like within 8 days or something of God of War Ragnarok. And it got completely overshadowed and forgotten both times.

    It wasn’t God of War. It was Elden Ring. So even worse for them.

    I’ll be honest, I was one of the few weirdos who chose Horizon over both of those. I bounced off of BotW and ended up beating Horizon 2 before I started Elden Ring.

    steam_sig.png
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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Plus didn't we find out from the Insomniac hack that Horizon is by far Sony's best selling exclusive game anyway? It's just a meme, doesn't reflect market conditions.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited March 21
    Oh dang that reminds me I still haven't played Horizon 2 yet. Which is funny caused I loved the first one.

    Dragkonias on
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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Plus didn't we find out from the Insomniac hack that Horizon is by far Sony's best selling exclusive game anyway? It's just a meme, doesn't reflect market conditions.

    Believe it or not Horizon sells a bit more modestly than than the rest of Sony's big-name stuff. Forbidden West is at 8.3 million, while God of War Ragnarok is at 15 million, Spider-Man 2 is at 10 million (and still selling at a steady clip), and the Last of Us Remaster sold 18 million. Even with all the controversy, The Last of Us 2 sold 10 million.

    Granted 8.3 million is a great success! But Sony's got a weirdly huge number of blockbusters.

    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Plus didn't we find out from the Insomniac hack that Horizon is by far Sony's best selling exclusive game anyway? It's just a meme, doesn't reflect market conditions.

    Believe it or not Horizon sells a bit more modestly than than the rest of Sony's big-name stuff. Forbidden West is at 8.3 million, while God of War Ragnarok is at 15 million, Spider-Man 2 is at 10 million (and still selling at a steady clip), and the Last of Us Remaster sold 18 million. Even with all the controversy, The Last of Us 2 sold 10 million.

    Granted 8.3 million is a great success! But Sony's got a weirdly huge number of blockbusters.

    Zero Dawn was at 19M, only GoW 2018 and Spider-Man 1 beat it out (based on the numbers from the hack).

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    AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Plus didn't we find out from the Insomniac hack that Horizon is by far Sony's best selling exclusive game anyway? It's just a meme, doesn't reflect market conditions.

    Believe it or not Horizon sells a bit more modestly than than the rest of Sony's big-name stuff. Forbidden West is at 8.3 million, while God of War Ragnarok is at 15 million, Spider-Man 2 is at 10 million (and still selling at a steady clip), and the Last of Us Remaster sold 18 million. Even with all the controversy, The Last of Us 2 sold 10 million.

    Granted 8.3 million is a great success! But Sony's got a weirdly huge number of blockbusters.

    Y'know it might have helped Horizon if they'd stop releasing the games at the absolute worst possible time ever conceived. I swear I dunno if the Devs are simply cursed or if someone has it out for them, but it has to be one of the two.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
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    KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    GotG is an amazing game that just didn't demo well at all.

    The combat seems like a clunky mess but really shines when you're actually playing it and the characters interactions get better and better as it goes on.

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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Plus didn't we find out from the Insomniac hack that Horizon is by far Sony's best selling exclusive game anyway? It's just a meme, doesn't reflect market conditions.

    Believe it or not Horizon sells a bit more modestly than than the rest of Sony's big-name stuff. Forbidden West is at 8.3 million, while God of War Ragnarok is at 15 million, Spider-Man 2 is at 10 million (and still selling at a steady clip), and the Last of Us Remaster sold 18 million. Even with all the controversy, The Last of Us 2 sold 10 million.

    Granted 8.3 million is a great success! But Sony's got a weirdly huge number of blockbusters.

    Y'know it might have helped Horizon if they'd stop releasing the games at the absolute worst possible time ever conceived. I swear I dunno if the Devs are simply cursed or if someone has it out for them, but it has to be one of the two.

    The devs aren't responsible for release date planning. That's going to be an executive with a business or marketing analysis role. And whoever is in that role for Guerilla software, or maybe at Sony Corporate HQ, is obviously doing a very poor job of analyzing the competition in the release week/window.

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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    Forbidden West possibly also sold modestly because it's just not that great. Zero Dawn is excellent, the devs then locked story content behind DLC, Forbidden West is just Zero Dawn expanded but with a weaker story and more tedious combat. It's definitely the lesser of the two games. Then the devs locked more story content behind DLC.

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