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  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    edited October 15
    the rankings and stuff are certainly silly... anyone with any attention span can tell they are worth nothing.

    a lot of the greatest stuff on the show recently has had nothing to do with rankings and title shots... just story development... feuds... etc....

    The parking lot brawl and everything about it was solid. No rankings or belts involved here! Jericho/Cassidy... good! A lot of the Taz/Team Taz stuff, very engaging!

    The show is at its best when it's not looking at the belts....

    Jasconius on
    Magell
  • PwnanObrienPwnanObrien He's right, life sucks. Registered User regular
    Using a more sports like presentation focused on rankings and making wins and losses matter is a tried and tested way to make a better show. CHIKARA's "three wins to challenge for a title" system made every match more dramatic. The G1 is arguably the best example of this every year but you can find similar round robin tournaments as narrative devices in Stardom's 5 STAR GP and even WWE's recent reincarnation of the Cruiserweight Classic.

    ...they just have to actually do it and right now it's up there with building a better women's division in terms of "surely OP will deliver."

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  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    I agree that AEW hasn’t done the best job integrating their ranking system with their storylines, but I don’t agree with the idea that the WWE style of barely caring about the sports framework at all is better.

    NJPW does a damn good job of it.

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  • MagellMagell Sphinx! Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    The problem with the rankings is how they book stuff.

    Cody loves old school booking that his dad did and builds stories around that which doesn't really work with records and standings. You could make the rankings work if the records weren't also displayed.

    The tag team booking is weird because they keep drawing out the FTR vs Bucks match instead of just doing it already.

    PwnanObrien
  • PwnanObrienPwnanObrien He's right, life sucks. Registered User regular
    They don't even have to do it immediately. Book ahead of time and hype the show up to increase ratings.

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    Magell
  • NiryaNirya Registered User regular
    I agree that AEW hasn’t done the best job integrating their ranking system with their storylines, but I don’t agree with the idea that the WWE style of barely caring about the sports framework at all is better.

    NJPW does a damn good job of it.

    Yeah, don't get me wrong - I don't necessarily believe the WWE style is inherently better. But it is internally consistent. NJPW is internally consistent in the opposite direction.

    AEW is trying to do both ways at the same time and it comes across poorly. If they stuck with one or the other, it'd work a lot better.

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  • Andy JoeAndy Joe The AdirondacksRegistered User regular
    If I ever won the lottery and started my own wrestling promotion I would announce at the top of the first show that title matches will be decided based on popularity, with little or no regard for win/loss records.

    I’ve heard it works for UFC!

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  • Ms DapperMs Dapper Yuri Librarian Registered User regular
    edited October 15
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    Kids these days, complaining about successful title defenses...you wanna go back to the Attitude Era, new champions every 1-2 months? Get off my lawn!

    I think another problem with this is that the titles they did change quickly are the women’s belt (with no real story) and the TNT belt to give it back to Cody. It makes it feel less natural and focused on defenses and more emphasizing the fakeness and what the bookers care about

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  • MagellMagell Sphinx! Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    Using a more sports like presentation focused on rankings and making wins and losses matter is a tried and tested way to make a better show. CHIKARA's "three wins to challenge for a title" system made every match more dramatic. The G1 is arguably the best example of this every year but you can find similar round robin tournaments as narrative devices in Stardom's 5 STAR GP and even WWE's recent reincarnation of the Cruiserweight Classic.

    ...they just have to actually do it and right now it's up there with building a better women's division in terms of "surely OP will deliver."

    I don't think a lot of people realize how much of their booking NJPW generates from the G1.

    Obviously the winner faces the champ at Wrestle Kingdom. Also every loss every champ has is someone who gets a title shot in the shows between the G1 and WK. Its a simple system that provides fresh matches and offers a way to get a popular guy a title shot they might not otherwise deserve.

    PwnanObrien
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    The thing with me is

    They have 4 belts

    Mox isn't dropping the world title anytime soon, he is the biggest star in the company and they obviously want him to have a lengthy run. He deserves it, and is exciting, but it is less about the title and more just that Moxley is Moxley.

    The Tag Belts are tied up in FTR/Bucks for the foreseeable future, at the expense of the many fantastic tag teams they have. Doubly so following rhe longer than expected Omega/Page run where both men were obviously great in the ring but not A Tag Team like every other team in the division.

    The Women's Title basically has no story to it. Shida is just a good wrestler and she wrestles various opponents goodly, thats it. Nor did it really have a story worth mentioning with Riho or Nyla aside from SHE IS LITTLE and SHE IS BIG AND MEAN.

    Which leaves the TNT Title which should be swapping hands often. That's the whole appeal of a belt that is defended nearly every episode of Dynamite. A wrestler getting a lengthy run and streak should be treated like A Big Deal. Instead it feels like Cody's vanity belt. The Brodie Lee squash was the most shocking and exciting booking decision they had done in months and to just IMMEDIATELY put it back on Cody shows they really don't get that.

    They have a ton of talent and, between Dark and Dynamite, a good amount of air time


    They just refuse to have actually exciting stories for these belts.

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  • astrobstrdastrobstrd So full of mercy... Registered User regular
    5 belts. The FTW belt :biggrin:

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  • PwnanObrienPwnanObrien He's right, life sucks. Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    Using a more sports like presentation focused on rankings and making wins and losses matter is a tried and tested way to make a better show. CHIKARA's "three wins to challenge for a title" system made every match more dramatic. The G1 is arguably the best example of this every year but you can find similar round robin tournaments as narrative devices in Stardom's 5 STAR GP and even WWE's recent reincarnation of the Cruiserweight Classic.

    ...they just have to actually do it and right now it's up there with building a better women's division in terms of "surely OP will deliver."

    I don't think a lot of people realize how much of their booking NJPW generates from the G1.

    Obviously the winner faces the champ at Wrestle Kingdom. Also every loss every champ has is someone who gets a title shot in the shows between the G1 and WK. Its a simple system that provides fresh matches and offers a way to get a popular guy a title shot they might not otherwise deserve.

    This is also supposed to be the purpose of The Royal Rumble but WWE seems to think it's meant to anoint the guy they've been pushing for months to have a world title shot. So the whole thing just turns into an hour long groan of "oh for fuck sake stop pretending you're going to do something cool and just give it to the guy all those backstage leaks have said you're going with." I think the last time a new feud was created out of "you eliminated me from the Royal Rumble" Clinton was in office.

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    Thawmus
  • Rorshach KringleRorshach Kringle that crustache life Registered User regular
    wow it really has been that long since maven eliminated the undertaker

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  • Andy JoeAndy Joe The AdirondacksRegistered User regular
    I agree that AEW hasn’t done the best job integrating their ranking system with their storylines, but I don’t agree with the idea that the WWE style of barely caring about the sports framework at all is better.

    NJPW does a damn good job of it.

    New Japan does focus in on a sports framework in the context of its various tournaments, but let's not forget that it was just earlier this year that Hiromu got a shot at the double belts just because he was super upset about EVIL's betrayal.

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  • ThawmusThawmus Registered User regular
    IMHO the sports-centric-style-for-AEW ship sailed a long time ago when newcomer after newcomer got AEW world title shots right-a-fucking-way. And they keep spitting on it by saying, "Well okay this new guy doesn't have a record yet, so he can't challenge yet. Let's have him punch a jobber really hard. Okay now he's good."

    It's basically only ever been used as a crutch to remove The Elite from title contention time and time again, because putting the belts on them would be wrong, apparently.

    The worst thing Cody ever did was come back and finish his feud with Brodie Lee like that. He could have handled that literally any other way and it would have been better. Taking back the belt is also a loss, sure, but it's pretty secondary to The Nightmare Family vs Dark Order feud we had cooking, getting kicked over.

    I think the biggest problem AEW has going for it now is that they said "Yes" to so many fucking people that they're going to have to start saying "No" and pissing off people who think they're the next big thing or currently are the big thing and nah they suck. But nobody has the heart to do it.

    Their women's division needs something and I dunno if it's the booking or the coaching or the talent but I imagine that fixing it starts with firing people.

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  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    having only ever seen AEW I don't know enough about wrestling to contextualize it...

    but to me Cody retaking the belt from Brodie so quickly is actually fucking mental... it done so tastelessly on every dimension that I thought surely this is Cody doing a joke about himself. But no, not a joke, this is how he is...?

    there is definitely a inmates-running-the-asylum feel to it. when you have an unregulated cabal of talented people just hang out in a room and come up with stuff, you're bound to come up with good shit, and they absolutely have... at least 1 in 3 dynamites are *excellent* overall, which seems kinda good to me given real world events

    but they could really get to whole next level of excellence. there's a lot of stuff on this show that I crave more of, but it is delivered to me rather inconsistently

  • HawkstoneHawkstone The state of intoxicationRegistered User regular
    Jasconius wrote: »
    having only ever seen AEW I don't know enough about wrestling to contextualize it...

    but to me Cody retaking the belt from Brodie so quickly is actually fucking mental... it done so tastelessly on every dimension that I thought surely this is Cody doing a joke about himself. But no, not a joke, this is how he is...?

    there is definitely a inmates-running-the-asylum feel to it. when you have an unregulated cabal of talented people just hang out in a room and come up with stuff, you're bound to come up with good shit, and they absolutely have... at least 1 in 3 dynamites are *excellent* overall, which seems kinda good to me given real world events

    but they could really get to whole next level of excellence. there's a lot of stuff on this show that I crave more of, but it is delivered to me rather inconsistently

    I would heartily recommend seeking out context...Tasteless and Mental are corner stones of the wrestling business.

    Inside of a dog...it's too dark to read.
  • NiryaNirya Registered User regular
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  • MagellMagell Sphinx! Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    Especially with Janela admitting they didn't require a negative screening from wrestlers and booked a battle royal.

  • HawkstoneHawkstone The state of intoxicationRegistered User regular
    Huh, so all of the New Day is on Smackdown. With the Raw belts and have a match? No mention of a break up. Maybe they are going to try to have their cake and eat it to?

    Inside of a dog...it's too dark to read.
  • Sweeney TomSweeney Tom Registered User regular
    edited October 17
    Hawkstone wrote: »
    Huh, so all of the New Day is on Smackdown.
    The results of the draft won't fully go into effect until Hell in a Cell

    Recaps also mention breakup on the show

    edit: also posting this for the Shaneface

    Sweeney Tom on
  • SproutSprout Registered User regular
    I’m surprised it took them this long to have “special guests” in the Thunderdome audience.

  • XehalusXehalus lofi Registered User regular
    Raw Underground was just Shane yelling constantly and I won't miss it

    Andy Joe
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
  • Crippl3Crippl3 oh noRegistered User regular
    they also did a really good promo before their match, kinda ruined by the fake crowd noise but it's still real good: https://streamable.com/2x47d2

    Andy Joe
  • Sweeney TomSweeney Tom Registered User regular
    G1 final being
    SANADA/Kota
    is pretty surprising to me

  • PwnanObrienPwnanObrien He's right, life sucks. Registered User regular
    Man I've got like five hours of G1 content to catch up on before the final so of course I'm going to do that and then fail to keep up with BOTSJ the same way.

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  • ThawmusThawmus Registered User regular
    Yeah I've got like 4 days of them to catch up on and I may or may not. The matches are really good but it's seriously exhausting to watch that much wrestling at this pace. I may just skip to the rest of Yano's matches and call it good.

    I think I'm starting to get why American promotions don't try to emulate this.

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  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    I fell behind because of the lack of English commentary.

    I just can’t get into the shows as well without it. So having to wait 2 or 3 days to watch each show ended up with me getting spoiled half the time, and losing my enthusiasm.

    Kreutz
  • MagellMagell Sphinx! Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    I keep up for like the first two days then check out consensus opinions and check out the best matches.

    Emily Pratt does a good a good job recapping the shows and recommending matches.

    https://www.fanbyte.com/wrestling/njpw-recap-review-g1-climax-30-nights-9-10/

  • Dyvim TvarDyvim Tvar Registered User regular
    Falling behind on shows and then being forced to either cherry pick matches, or binge watch an unhealthy amount like a complete cellar goblin is a time honoured tradition of G1 viewing tbh.

    Everyone is different. Everyone is special.
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  • MagellMagell Sphinx! Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    I remember the dark days when you could buy the G1 tournament for $180. The njpwworld model is much better

    PwnanObrien
  • PerrsunPerrsun Registered User regular
    For AEW, would it help if they had a promoter/commissioner/CEO character?

    Like, you’ve got Nyla/Vickie saying “we want a title shot” and Shida saying “I’ll take on anybody” but nobody in between to say why those 2 aren’t fighting. Might it help if somebody was there to say “Your ranking fell. Get a couple wins and we’ll talk.”

    Somebody to be the face of their Ranking System?

    JaysonFour
  • Andy JoeAndy Joe The AdirondacksRegistered User regular
    So wrestlethread, how are we feeling about the possibility of Jay White getting kicked out of Bullet Club at the finals tomorrow?

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  • ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    So wrestlethread, how are we feeling about the possibility of Jay White getting kicked out of Bullet Club at the finals tomorrow?

    Time to form...Knife Club? Blade Club?

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  • facetiousfacetious a wit so dry it shits sandRegistered User regular
    Need someone who uses a cudgel to form Club Club.

    "I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde
    Real strong, facetious.

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  • MagellMagell Sphinx! Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    So wrestlethread, how are we feeling about the possibility of Jay White getting kicked out of Bullet Club at the finals tomorrow?

    How great would it be if they kick EVIL out instead.
    He betrayed his friends and changed his gear for nothing

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  • PwnanObrienPwnanObrien He's right, life sucks. Registered User regular
    They're all on borrowed time until The Guerrillas of Destiny are allowed back in the country.

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  • Andy JoeAndy Joe The AdirondacksRegistered User regular
    They're all on borrowed time until The Guerrillas of Destiny are allowed back in the country.

    Them too, but...

    Devitt, Styles, Omega, and White have all been figureheads. The actual leader of Bullet Club is and always has been Bad Luck Fale.

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  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    I think if either Evil or White left, it would be Evil.

    White fits the Bullet Club brand way better. He’s such a scumbag and he’s perfect as a figurehead.

    Whereas Evil is a bruiser who’s act has actively been hurt by trying to make him the same kind of cheaty asshole as the rest of the Club.

    PwnanObrien
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