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Singing, voice training and frustration
Rhino
TheRhinLOLRegistered User regular
TheRhinLOLRegistered User regular
I'm trying to learn how to train my voice (for acting) and also would like to sing. For the last week I've been trying to find a teacher, but I can't find any. Either they A) have horrible voices and don't know what they are doing or 
are really good, but charge stupid prices (I offered one $75 an hour, but she said it was way below her range and I can't offered much more then that at the moment).
I got two books... I read the first 100 pages of one, and finally got two the first vocal lesson and it said "Sing a C note then Middle C"... um, that's circular logic right there, yea? I mean, the probability of someone needing to learn from this book goes down exponentially with ever note they can sing prefectly, right? It's like saying "The first lesson is riding a bike is to practice riding up hill".
I'm just frustrated.
These guys where helpful and gave me links that'll play a C note:
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=23649
But the probably is, I'm sitting here like a retard going "Cccc... Ccccc Ccccc Ccccc" and have no idea if I'm even close or not to hitting the note...
For the last weeks I've been practicing at least 2 hours a day (from this book and a few exercises my acting teacher gave me) - but all of it's in vain if I don't know if I'm practicing right. It's like a blind man learning to write... how can he tell if he's getting better or not, if he can't see what he's writing? What if I'm practicing the wrong thing and just "perfecting" an "out of tune" C note?
I've spend about a lot of time on this and I still suck as much as I did before, if not more..... I'm still looking for a teacher, but just frustrated as hell cause I'm not even sure how to learn how to get better? If I was trying to learn typing, I could see on the screen if I was hitting the right keys or not... but with singing, it's like I don't have a monitor - no way to get feedback and if I'm doing it right or not.
Anyone have any suggestions? I'm still trying hard to find a decent teacher, but is there anything I can do on my own that'll get me better at voice/singing?
are really good, but charge stupid prices (I offered one $75 an hour, but she said it was way below her range and I can't offered much more then that at the moment).I got two books... I read the first 100 pages of one, and finally got two the first vocal lesson and it said "Sing a C note then Middle C"... um, that's circular logic right there, yea? I mean, the probability of someone needing to learn from this book goes down exponentially with ever note they can sing prefectly, right? It's like saying "The first lesson is riding a bike is to practice riding up hill".
I'm just frustrated.
These guys where helpful and gave me links that'll play a C note:
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=23649
But the probably is, I'm sitting here like a retard going "Cccc... Ccccc Ccccc Ccccc" and have no idea if I'm even close or not to hitting the note...
For the last weeks I've been practicing at least 2 hours a day (from this book and a few exercises my acting teacher gave me) - but all of it's in vain if I don't know if I'm practicing right. It's like a blind man learning to write... how can he tell if he's getting better or not, if he can't see what he's writing? What if I'm practicing the wrong thing and just "perfecting" an "out of tune" C note?
I've spend about a lot of time on this and I still suck as much as I did before, if not more..... I'm still looking for a teacher, but just frustrated as hell cause I'm not even sure how to learn how to get better? If I was trying to learn typing, I could see on the screen if I was hitting the right keys or not... but with singing, it's like I don't have a monitor - no way to get feedback and if I'm doing it right or not.
Anyone have any suggestions? I'm still trying hard to find a decent teacher, but is there anything I can do on my own that'll get me better at voice/singing?
Rhino on
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I took four and a half years of serious bassoon lessons with an ex-professional player, and we not only did the regular technical and artistic stuff for my instrument, but we also did theory, ear-training, melody playback and even some solfege.
The most important thing you need to be able to do when singing is recognizing musical intervals and being able to reproduce them - it's not a very remarkable skill, and it most certainly can be learned. Learning piano will give you the necessary skills to be able to do this without too much trouble, and will most likely be much cheaper than dedicated "voice" teachers.
:winky:
hehe, ok..sorry.
I've been thinking about piano lessons for awhile now.
I also just found this guy on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5CWsFaVnWM&mode=related&search=
I'm going to try his stuff cause it looks better then all these expensive books I bought.... He seems like he knows what he's doing.
What's a music interval?
For instance, you mentioned Middle C. When you play Middle C, together with the E and G above it, you are creating the C major chord. The distance between C and E is a major third, the distance between E and G is a minor third, and finally the distance between C and G is a perfect fifth. You learn all of this in theory classes, and you learn how to hear the different intervals also.
More examples: All major or minor chords are constructed thus: tonic (the first note, the one that gives the scale it's name, such as C major, Bb major, A major), mediant (the third note in the scale), dominant (the fifth note in the scale). But the distances between the tonic, mediant and dominant determine the nature of the scale. As I mentioned above C major is C, E, G - essentially a minor third ontop of a major third (C-E is major third, E-G is a minor third). The C minor is C, Eb (E flat), G, and is just the opposite in terms of intervals. It's a major third ontop of a minor third (C-Eb is a minor third, makes the scale "minor", Eb-G is a major third).
You can also determine all twelve major and minor keys by intervals. Behold, the circle of fifths (fourths):
Starting at C major, you can go either right (by fifths), or left (by fourths). Since I began playing music in band rather than orchestra, I'm still more comfortable in flat keys, so I always draw the diagram backwards (where going right means going by fourths). Anyway, starting at C and going up a perfect fifth, you arrive at G - which is the next major scale (G major has 1 sharp, or #). From G, you go up another perfect fifth and you arrive at D (D major has 2#). Conversely, you can go from C to F major by going up a perfect fourth, and from F major to Bb major by also going up a perfect fourth.
There is also a simple way of determining a major key's relative minor scale - take a look at the major scale, in this case, C major - C D E F G A B C. Then from the tonic go down three scale degrees (or, it's inversion, up six). You will arrive at a minor (minors are always written in lower case), which uses the same key signature (number of flats/sharps) as C major. You can do this for any key.
Take a look at Db (D flat) major. Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-C-Db - you can either go down three from the tonic, or up six from the tonic. Regardless, you land every single time on the note B flat. So, the relative minor of D flat major is b flat minor, which uses the same key signature as D flat major.
In interval terms, you can determine the relative minor of a major key by going down a minor third from the tonic, or up by a major six.
I hope all of that made sense. Any more questions and I will do the best to answer them.
And for middle C you don't actually have to sing "C".
Question, why do you think your voice teachers have to be able to sing? They can instruct you quite well without being able to sing themselves. I had a music teacher for 3 years in high school that sucked horribly at singing, but was also able to tell if WE sucked horribly. You're the one singing, they're probably just going to be playing piano and instructing.
What you should do is buy a cheap electronic keyboard to guide you (some analogous computer program would do okay, but your need to be able to play multiple notes in relatively quick sucession). If you don't know already, go online and learn what note each piano key plays. Play each note and match it with your voice. A full size keyboard has an assload of keys; generally an average male range is about 2 octaves not counting falcetto. My passagio (the part of a highend range where one typically strains to maintain pitch) is exactly middle C, and my full-on breaking point is Eb. Improving the quality of YOUR passagio should be the focus of many of your practices.
Play eight white notes in succession, matching with your voice (sing "Eeeee" or "Aahhh"). Shift up one note, rinse, repeat. Try to make your tone as rich and robust as possible. Avoid straining for high notes! If your voice hurts afterward, seriously take it back a notch, as this is really quite bad for your vocal chords. Posture, breathing and head voice technique and such are very important, and you will need to find a way (either through a book or online resource -- these are not trivial topics) to learn all about them. When I practice, I use a full length mirror for visual affirmation that I am doing things right (disappointingly, I often think I'm doing it right until I step in front of a mirror).
Try training your ear by relying on the piano less as a guide. Memorize what each note sounds like (the whole Do Re Me Fa So La Di Ta thing is a way to put an octave into a "song" so its easier to recall what each note sounds like -- Do and Ta are both "C"). Test yourself often. Record yourself singing a song (I use a headset mic and the stock windows recorder) and then examine your pitch accuracy against the professional sample.
Also, I would make a point to listen to a lot of opera performed by someone of the same sex in your vocal range. The people on operatic recordings are generally at the pinnacle of vocal mastery, and you WILL form good habits by singing along with an opera singer, even if you have zero idea what good technique even is when you start.
I found some computer programs that'll play notes thanks to people in another thread (just trying to do a simple C at the moment) - but the problem is that I can't tell if I'm "hitting it" or "on it"... I do "CCCCC" or "LAAAAA" or whatever with my voice while playing the note in the software - but even if I record it, I can't tell if I'm doing it right or not?
You might be able to buy an electronic tuner. They have a mic, and you play/sing a note into them, and they tell you how flat/sharp you are... The cheap ones only do a couple notes (or even 1), but it might be what you're looking for. They are generally used for instruments, but I can't think of why they wouldn't work with a voice.
Ah, yes, that is a very good idea. I use a Korg CA30 - it will tune any note you sing and is quite sensitive. For the longest time it was the bane of my existence, but it really does help.
This is, in a nutshell, why you need some sort of musical training before you embark on your vocal ambitions. You can tell if you are sharp/flat by listening to the 'beats' of the pitch. For me, in the beginning, trying to determine what was flat or sharp drove me mad. My first music teacher had some great advice, though: if you think of a solid, intune pitch as one with no "shimmering" or 'wawawawa', and an out of tune pitch as one with shimmering or beats, you can tell the relative intuneness or out of tuneness by the "clarity" of the pitch. Irrespective of tone, timbre, or colour, if a pitch is in tune it will not waver and will not have any little 'beats'.
Best thing you can do is, once again, take piano lessons. At the very least learn the keyboard and the notes on it. When you know that, you can just sit down at the keyboard and play intervals all day long and sing them. Another great technique my bassoon prof. used when I was learning the basic intervals was playing the beginning of famous songs or works - you can tell a minor third going down because it's the same interval used at the beginning of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, for example.
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
I will say it once again: if you are interested in singing, take piano lessons. Much, much cheaper than vocal lessons, and will teach you all of the above. It does not take much effort to learn these things, and if you do, it will pay dividends for ages, especially if you start singing with a choir and are the only one who can read music (I've seen it happen, it's not pretty).