Electrical question - "Moving" an oulet

FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
I'm pretty sure this is all fine, but I just want to get a second opinion. The guy at home depot didn't seem overly confident in his acceptance of my plan.

I bought a TV for the bedroom and wanted to mount it on the wall. There were two outlets along the wall where I was mounting, and the mount happened to be directly above one of these outlets. I decided I would just run a recessed outlet behind the TV that's passed through the outlet below. Easy! I've done this several times before...

What I should have realized is that the outlet would already have wires passing through.. down to the next outlet along the wall. I could pig-tail it in, but I didn't know if I could have 3 cables going into a single box safely. I also couldn't feasibly fish the cable up to the recessed outlet without putting two cables through one hole in the top of the box, and I knew that wasn't a good idea.

I ended up ripping out the single box and outlet, replacing it with a double box, then just pig-tailing 3 white, 3 black, and grounds. So I essentially "moved" that lower outlet so it's now the recessed outlet above. All pig-tails (3 total mars connectors) are shoved into the double box, and there's a plain plate screwed on.

One probable issue is that since I didn't actually open the wall I wasn't able to properly tack the new wire to the stud, so it's loose. I'm not overly concerned there since it's about 3 feet, I left some slack, and the wall it shares realistically won't be nailed or drilled into by mistake or anything.

Am I missing anything?

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  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    Are you asking if this is to code/would pass an inspection?

    EnczepherinShadowfire
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    edited September 7
    Can it be done: yes.
    Should you do it: no.
    Should you hire a bonded contractor to do it: sure!
    But isn't it fairly easy as far as things go?: Yes.
    So why shouldn't I do it?: Because if/when something goes wrong you don't want your insurance denying a claim because of DIY household electrical repairs, where should something go wrong and a bonded electrician was responsible between the electrician and the insurance you will be covered for repairs.
    And also: Yes, code is a thing and varies from state and county. A bonded electrician will know what is required in your area to meet inspection criteria.

    Enc on
    Fiendishrabbitdispatch.obowenJaysonFourElvenshaeShadowfire
  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    edited September 7
    They also sell kits at home stores that add a channel in the wall to run cables from the outlet to your TV

    Edit: here's a version that's essentially an in-wall extension cord and 2 holes to fish aux cables.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HIYAFR4/

    Mugsley on
    Shadowfire
  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    The NFPA website allows you to look at the national electric code for free. I believe it’s NFPA 70. Almost all localities use it as their code to follow. There is a section on how many wires and other things you can put into electrical boxes of varying sizes.

    If you’re worried about a plan, you can always get a permit. It’s required most places (for electrical work), but it also is a nice way to get your work double checked. Probably take a few weeks or something to get an inspector out, and costs money, but probably cheaper than an electrician.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    Mugsley wrote: »
    They also sell kits at home stores that add a channel in the wall to run cables from the outlet to your TV

    Edit: here's a version that's essentially an in-wall extension cord and 2 holes to fish aux cables.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HIYAFR4/

    I've used these before, but since the TV is alone on the wall with nothing along the floor, it won't really work here. Unless I still want a random cord sticking out of the scoop and into the existing outlet. I do however prefer this setup when possible, because it lets you use a surge protector whereas a regular recessed outlet behind a TV is just straight into the outlet. The exact kit you linked though may not be the best choice with that "pre-stripped powerwire". But you could just use a romex cable to replace it.

    In terms of licensed electricians, homeowners are permitted to complete their own electrical work in Ontario as long as they're following code. Which is what I'm asking about here. I'm pretty sure this is to code, but I was hoping someone who knew it better than I could just a quick nod. Whether or not I'd still need a permit to move an outlet is a question for that office, but I doubt most homeowners are ordering $80+ permits to move an outlet 3 feet up.

    XBL : Figment3 · SteamID : Figment · Website : www.nathanswyers.com
  • SimpsoniaSimpsonia Registered User regular
    Figgy wrote: »
    Mugsley wrote: »
    They also sell kits at home stores that add a channel in the wall to run cables from the outlet to your TV

    Edit: here's a version that's essentially an in-wall extension cord and 2 holes to fish aux cables.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HIYAFR4/

    I've used these before, but since the TV is alone on the wall with nothing along the floor, it won't really work here. Unless I still want a random cord sticking out of the scoop and into the existing outlet. I do however prefer this setup when possible, because it lets you use a surge protector whereas a regular recessed outlet behind a TV is just straight into the outlet. The exact kit you linked though may not be the best choice with that "pre-stripped powerwire". But you could just use a romex cable to replace it.

    In terms of licensed electricians, homeowners are permitted to complete their own electrical work in Ontario as long as they're following code. Which is what I'm asking about here. I'm pretty sure this is to code, but I was hoping someone who knew it better than I could just a quick nod. Whether or not I'd still need a permit to move an outlet is a question for that office, but I doubt most homeowners are ordering $80+ permits to move an outlet 3 feet up.

    Still not to code, as far as I understand. NM-B (Romex) needs to be secured (stapled to a stud) within 12" of every entry/exit. NCC allows short runs of unsecured wire horizontally only (on the ceiling), as far as I understand it. Now is it a big deal for that short of a run, as long as you use a secured connector to the boxes, debateable. Will a home inspector catch it, probably not. Can your home insurance refuse coverage if they find non-code electrical work was responsible for a fire, maybe. Is it likely to cause a fire if you know what you're doing, unlikely. Minor in the scheme of things, but up to you on how much of a stickler you are.

  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    edited September 8
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    Figgy wrote: »
    Mugsley wrote: »
    They also sell kits at home stores that add a channel in the wall to run cables from the outlet to your TV

    Edit: here's a version that's essentially an in-wall extension cord and 2 holes to fish aux cables.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HIYAFR4/

    I've used these before, but since the TV is alone on the wall with nothing along the floor, it won't really work here. Unless I still want a random cord sticking out of the scoop and into the existing outlet. I do however prefer this setup when possible, because it lets you use a surge protector whereas a regular recessed outlet behind a TV is just straight into the outlet. The exact kit you linked though may not be the best choice with that "pre-stripped powerwire". But you could just use a romex cable to replace it.

    In terms of licensed electricians, homeowners are permitted to complete their own electrical work in Ontario as long as they're following code. Which is what I'm asking about here. I'm pretty sure this is to code, but I was hoping someone who knew it better than I could just a quick nod. Whether or not I'd still need a permit to move an outlet is a question for that office, but I doubt most homeowners are ordering $80+ permits to move an outlet 3 feet up.

    Still not to code, as far as I understand. NM-B (Romex) needs to be secured (stapled to a stud) within 12" of every entry/exit. NCC allows short runs of unsecured wire horizontally only (on the ceiling), as far as I understand it. Now is it a big deal for that short of a run, as long as you use a secured connector to the boxes, debateable. Will a home inspector catch it, probably not. Can your home insurance refuse coverage if they find non-code electrical work was responsible for a fire, maybe. Is it likely to cause a fire if you know what you're doing, unlikely. Minor in the scheme of things, but up to you on how much of a stickler you are.

    I think I could potentially reach in and stapled to the stud if that's the only issue. The hole to fit the recessed outlet is like 10" x 10".

    Because it's a junction box and then outlet on top of that, I could probably get away with a single staple point, too, covering both.

    pax8y8zx5v4z.png

    Edit: Not drawn accurately is that the romex coming into and out of that area are tacked to the left stud. The one coming from the recessed outlet is dangling, with a bit more slack.

    Figgy on
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  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    I did something similar to that in my basement, to get electrical service closer to where I was installing a network switch. I had the "luxury" of being able to staple the romex to exposed joists (i.e. my basement is unfinished). Worked a treat!.

    I personally don't see a problem with it but I don't know the details about Ontario's code. You could informally ask an electrician maybe at HD while they're loading a truck, or if you see someone in your neighbourhood with a labeled van. I think the higher risk of fire is if you didn't have the splice in a junction box; and you did the right thing there by adding a double-gang box to keep from overloading it.

  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited September 9
    I've never heard of using a wire nut to connect 3 sets of wires being acceptable code anywhere. It might be, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not.

    dispatch.o on
  • mtsmts Dr. Robot King Registered User regular
    At least by me, you aren't allowed to have a outlet that high off the ground unless its in a kitchen. You can however it run to a lower one.

    I don't see why chaining the outlet is bad for that. Just make sure it goes in order of the live line.

    camo_sig.png
  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    Figgy wrote: »
    Mugsley wrote: »
    They also sell kits at home stores that add a channel in the wall to run cables from the outlet to your TV

    Edit: here's a version that's essentially an in-wall extension cord and 2 holes to fish aux cables.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HIYAFR4/

    I've used these before, but since the TV is alone on the wall with nothing along the floor, it won't really work here. Unless I still want a random cord sticking out of the scoop and into the existing outlet. I do however prefer this setup when possible, because it lets you use a surge protector whereas a regular recessed outlet behind a TV is just straight into the outlet. The exact kit you linked though may not be the best choice with that "pre-stripped powerwire". But you could just use a romex cable to replace it.

    In terms of licensed electricians, homeowners are permitted to complete their own electrical work in Ontario as long as they're following code. Which is what I'm asking about here. I'm pretty sure this is to code, but I was hoping someone who knew it better than I could just a quick nod. Whether or not I'd still need a permit to move an outlet is a question for that office, but I doubt most homeowners are ordering $80+ permits to move an outlet 3 feet up.

    Still not to code, as far as I understand. NM-B (Romex) needs to be secured (stapled to a stud) within 12" of every entry/exit. NCC allows short runs of unsecured wire horizontally only (on the ceiling), as far as I understand it. Now is it a big deal for that short of a run, as long as you use a secured connector to the boxes, debateable. Will a home inspector catch it, probably not. Can your home insurance refuse coverage if they find non-code electrical work was responsible for a fire, maybe. Is it likely to cause a fire if you know what you're doing, unlikely. Minor in the scheme of things, but up to you on how much of a stickler you are.

    There is almost always an exception for doing finished work. New work is required to be stapled, but I’m pretty sure finished work can just be dangled.

    Quick google search turned up this:
    334.30(B) Unsupported Cables. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be permitted to be unsupported where the cable:

    (1) Is fished between access points through concealed spaces in finished buildings or structures and supporting is impracticable.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I've never heard of using a wire nut to connect 3 sets of wires being acceptable code anywhere. It might be, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not.

    Why wouldn’t it be? Wire nuts have ratings on them for number of wires (of particular sizes) that can be twisted together in a single nut, and they definitely have ones for 3+ wires.

    Just to reiterate, I am not a licensed electrician, and this is not legal/technical advice, but I’m pretty sure that rule is not in the NEC (NFPA 70).

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
    SoggybiscuitShadowfirezagdrobtastydonuts
  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    If you're having trouble figuring out what is code and what's not, it might just be worth it to bite the bullet and hire a professional to come in and do it. It might cost you more, but still, it beats worrying if it's up to code, and they'll know what you can or cannot do. I mean, you're playing around with something that could easily fuck up the wiring in your home and cause fires/shorts/destroy expensive electronic equipment, and I don't know if insurance has a clause that says any destruction of property because of unlicensed screwing around with the power in your home isn't covered, but let's face it, do you really want to risk it?

    steam_sig.png
    EncShadowfire
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Codes vary depending on jurisdiction, but there is no maximum height for receptacles. The main catch is that every section of the wall must be within 6' of a receptacle (i.e. one outlet every 12') and receptacles above 5 1/2 feet don't count towards that.

    It's also fine to connect more than two wires with a single wire nut provided you're not exceeding the capacity of that nut (e.g. yellow will old 3x12awg). If it wasn't, it would be impossible to pigtail or split anything and all circuits would have to be series. You can also get push-in connectors that will hold an almost arbitrary number of wires - I've got a box of ones that connects 8x12awg romex. I prefer wire nuts though for two or three wire connections.

    Rules on finish work are definitely different than new construction though. Basic electrical is generally pretty safe and easy and I wouldn't think twice about doing what you're doing here - cut a hole for an old work box, fish some 12 or 14 romex down to the existing outlet, and splice in. You can probably cram the splices back into the existing single box but that can be a pain (especially if you're dealing with 12awg) and a duplex box does make it easier.

    Of course though if you don't know what you are doing or aren't comfortable doing it have a professional do the work.

    Also, homeowners are generally allowed to change outlets and fixtures everywhere without inspection / permit and insurance would still have to cover faulty installation (check your policy if worried). Running actual wire is a grey area that again varies depending on where you're at.

    Jebus314Mugsley
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited September 10
    Just as an aside with all these kits and DIY advice, an electrician's cost to move an outlet is only like $150-400 depending on CoL, difficulty, etc.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I don't want to be that guy but you're gonna save so much time and money and heartache if you just call an electrician.

    Also it will help you develop a relationship with the electrician which is going to be helpful later on.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
    ShadowfireElvenshaedispatch.oJaysonFourEncbowen
  • NoquarNoquar Registered User regular
    The other reality is that as long as you're not exceeding the load for that circuit and everything is snug, secure, and not showing bare wire - you're fine. If you ever sell the home inspector is extremely unlikely to pull those plates off and inspect behind the wall to see what's going on.

    I would add that if you know a good electrician many will come out for a small fee to at least look at it and give advice- i.e. it's fine, or hey you should do this instead - and then you can make the choice yourself.

    I do a lot of DIY around my house and have only really had to call when I was confused as to what the prior homeowner did - and in one case it was learning how to get grounded devices to work on a two wire system.

  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    Thanks everyone. This work was complete before I posted that drawing. It's simple work, and I've done outlets and switches before, so I was just hoping someone who knew the code could confirm I didn't overlook something.

    It's been corrected already, but no raised outlets and only 2 wires per mars? How would any TV ever be mounted on a wall and how would you ever pigtail wires?

    Anyway, this can be closed!

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