[2020 ELECTION] THREAD OF WHAT IN THE ACTUAL FORK

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    In case you were wondering where the laptop stuff is going, Ron Johnson suggested there's child porn on the laptop on Fox News. Which, in retrospect, feels like the obvious direction it would end up going in.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Smurph wrote: »
    I'm seeing Trump supporters on Twitter suddenly in love with Trafalgar Group polls (polls are lies unless they like the results). Seems unlikely these are accurate, but worth keeping an eye on.

    Michigan:
    Trump 47 (+1)
    Biden 46
    Jorgenson 3
    Hawkins 2

    Wisconsin:
    Biden 47 (+2)
    Trump 45
    Jorgenson 3

    Florida:
    Trump 48 (+2)
    Biden 46
    Jorgenson 2


    Trafalgar assumes that shy Trump voters are a thing so just gives Trump more points in their polls. Don't link them.

    EDIT: Just for funsies I looked at the internals, they assume a Michigan electorate that's older and whiter than 2016.

    They have some methodologies for teasing out what they think is happening, and they've had some success as well. The idea of asking who you think your neighbors are voting for is interesting to me.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    In case you were wondering where the laptop stuff is going, Ron Johnson suggested there's child porn on the laptop on Fox News. Which, in retrospect, feels like the obvious direction it would end up going in.

    of course they're feeding the Qanon. Of course Giuliani bought into a Quanon conspiracy.

    That's why Trump won't denounce them... it's because their plan was to use them as an October surprise.

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    And of course, the obvious reaction was that if it was real and they had that sort of evidence, he'd be arrested already, instead of keeping it under wraps until just before the election to make a splash.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    PantsB wrote: »
    In Michigan (MI Dem staffer)
    WATCH: John James completely fumbles on @Local4News when pressed on how he'd protect Michiganders with pre-existing conditions. (Hint: it's because he has absolutely no plan to do so) #MISen https://t.co/OA48Pvi4iG
    That is not explicitly the GOP challenger to Sen Peters dropping out but... yeah that is a choke job

    BTW if you are running for Senate you are a politician.

    The man was always an empty suit, it's embarrassing he's been allowed to come this far, twice.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    CNN Contributor:
    Lara Trump tells #CNNSOTU that Trump wasn’t doing anything to “threaten” people with “lock her up” chants . She says “he was just having fun.” Described the atmosphere at “light hearted.”
    Lara Trump is a former American television producer and campaign adviser to Donald Trump. She is married to Eric Trump.

    Saying to arrest political opponents is all just good fun now

    See, this is the kind of thing that bugs the shit out of me. Not Lara Trump, we already know she's a soulless ghoul. Posting this shit without any commentary is journalistic malpractice. "I don't judge, I report, you decide!" Literally everybody should be condemning Trump for riling up his crowds into an attempted fascist coup by jailing his political adversaries. This shit should be unacceptable, not "oh that's just Trump lol". We just saw a kidnapping attempt occur because of his "light hearted" words.

    I blame Twitter, too. People used to get their news by reading it. Now everything is distilled into sanitized soundbites that they don't care enough to moderate unless it's liberal in origin.

    The scary thing about this election is that even after Trump is gone, so much shit has been normalized in the public consciousness that I fear we will never re-stigmatize these things.

    Okay so coming back to this, to her credit she did follow up with this:



    But there’s still no pushback on the “lock them up” shit. And some people won’t even see the followup tweets unless they click into the thread. So my point stands: it’s been 4 years and our journalists still have no idea how to cover Trump in a responsible way.

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  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    In case you were wondering where the laptop stuff is going, Ron Johnson suggested there's child porn on the laptop on Fox News. Which, in retrospect, feels like the obvious direction it would end up going in.

    Now you have chain of custody issues though. Absolutely nothing they can do with it other than to try to smear him further.

    We are the skeletons in our closets.
    We are the monsters under our beds.
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    Just dropped off a vote for Biden! God damn he needs to win, there's so much work to do.

    Take a moment to donate what you can to Critical Resistance and Black Lives Matter.
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  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 18
    Only got around to listening to LRC today, and the right guy's response to the chain of custody thing was to bring up the NYT Trump Taxes article.

    Which, on the one hand, fair enough (ignoring for now the somewhat large credibility diff between NYT and NYP)... Without siting sources, we basically have to take NYT's word on it. Which makes is almost random speculation to a conservative who doesn't trust NYT.

    But on the other than hand, random speculation on Trump's taxes is only possible because he's never released them. There is no reasonable expectation that Hunter Biden would release every email he's ever sent, because emails aren't taxes, and he's not even running for anything.

    Monkey Ball Warrior on
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  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Only got around to listening to LRC today, and the right guy's response to the chain of custody thing was to bring up the NYT Trump Taxes article.

    Which, on the one hand, fair enough (ignoring for now the somewhat large credibility diff between NYT and NYP)...

    But on the other than hand, random speculation on Trump's taxes is only possible because he's never released them. There is no reasonable expectation that Hunter Biden would release every email he's ever sent, because emails aren't taxes, and he's not even running for anything.

    Except Trump's taxes are not a valid comparison. You can go back to the source for the taxes, that being state and federal government. All it takes is a court order and an IRS that doesn't openly defy a court order and you can compare what NYT has against the ones filed.

    The laptop IS the source, and so is permanently contaminated.

    We are the skeletons in our closets.
    We are the monsters under our beds.
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  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    Only got around to listening to LRC today, and the right guy's response to the chain of custody thing was to bring up the NYT Trump Taxes article.

    Which, on the one hand, fair enough (ignoring for now the somewhat large credibility diff between NYT and NYP)...

    But on the other than hand, random speculation on Trump's taxes is only possible because he's never released them. There is no reasonable expectation that Hunter Biden would release every email he's ever sent, because emails aren't taxes, and he's not even running for anything.

    Except Trump's taxes are not a valid comparison. You can go back to the source for the taxes, that being state and federal government. All it takes is a court order and an IRS that doesn't openly defy a court order and you can compare what NYT has against the ones filed.

    The laptop IS the source, and so is permanently contaminated.

    Also, the tax stuff, if false, is quickly and easily disprovable in about a zillion different ways. It's a zillion different highly specific facts. They could attack any of them as proof that the whole set of data is bad.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    The NYT knew who their sources were and if they would have access to what they claimed to have

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  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Only got around to listening to LRC today, and the right guy's response to the chain of custody thing was to bring up the NYT Trump Taxes article.

    Which, on the one hand, fair enough (ignoring for now the somewhat large credibility diff between NYT and NYP)...

    But on the other than hand, random speculation on Trump's taxes is only possible because he's never released them. There is no reasonable expectation that Hunter Biden would release every email he's ever sent, because emails aren't taxes, and he's not even running for anything.

    Except Trump's taxes are not a valid comparison. You can go back to the source for the taxes, that being state and federal government. All it takes is a court order and an IRS that doesn't openly defy a court order and you can compare what NYT has against the ones filed.

    The laptop IS the source, and so is permanently contaminated.

    I mean, in theory if the emails are real, and if one could convince a judge they were relevant to anything, you could get a court order to check the laptop on the other end (assuming it was in jurisdiction) and validate it. True things can generally be proven given enough resources.

    But that's a pretty high bar given the only hint of any impropriety is coming from unreliable and politically motivated sources at best, foreign actors at worst. There's... a lot of reasons to think Trump hasn't been honest with his taxes. Including things he's said himself on camera.

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  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    CNN Contributor:
    Lara Trump tells #CNNSOTU that Trump wasn’t doing anything to “threaten” people with “lock her up” chants . She says “he was just having fun.” Described the atmosphere at “light hearted.”
    Lara Trump is a former American television producer and campaign adviser to Donald Trump. She is married to Eric Trump.

    Saying to arrest political opponents is all just good fun now

    Fuck all the way off, you little assmonkey. We just went through a whole thing not more than a week ago where terrorists inspired by him were busted trying to get gear and planning to attack and kill the governor, and he comes here and pulls the “lock her up” bullshit and you have to tell us “oh, it’s just a joke bro lol, y u mad? lol triggered much?”

    No, fuck you and your assclown candidate. I only wish AG Nessel had the superhuman backbone to file fucking terroristic threats on Donnie for this shit. You know damn well he meant it, we know damn well he meant it, and here you are covering for his crazy demented racist grandpa ass by dropping a rag over his latest shit pile and trying to claim “oh lol, that’s nothing, I don’t smell shit, nothing to see here!”

    Fuck off to wherever, go down the memory hole, and fucking stay there, along with most of your family except Mary.

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  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 18
    Being able to laugh about any subject, to essentially be able to take a joke, is an admirable character trait.

    Making unfunny jokes in a time of national crisis in a way that is very likely the inflame that crisis is not. Even granting that it was a joke (which... I seem to be incapable of in practice), it was in exceedingly poor taste.

    Monkey Ball Warrior on
    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    Being able to laugh about any subject, to essentially be able to take a joke, is an admirable character trait.

    Making unfunny jokes in a time of national crisis in a way that is very likely the inflame that crisis is not. Even granting that it was a joke (which... I seem to be incapable of in practice), it was in exceedingly poor taste.

    That wasn't a joke, that was "it's just a joke bro" as an excuse to say the quiet part out loud.

    Believe the authoritarian.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    What is the joke other than "hahaha, wouldn't it be awesome to do this authoritarian thing"?

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited October 18
    https://lieu.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/reps-lieu-and-rice-call-investigation-possible-extrajudicial-killing

    Not sure if this is posted, but Ted Lieu and Kathleen Rice have called for an investigation by the US Marshalls into the killing Trump claims to have ordered.

    The information they've claimed so far: the "Marshalls" on site were one marshall, two sheriff's deputies, a city cop, and a local prison guard, the later four all temporarily deputized by who the hell knows.

    Four of the five opened fire without announcing themselves, one did not draw their weapon. Guess which.

    Hevach on
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  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    Smurph wrote: »
    I'm seeing Trump supporters on Twitter suddenly in love with Trafalgar Group polls (polls are lies unless they like the results). Seems unlikely these are accurate, but worth keeping an eye on.

    Michigan:
    Trump 47 (+1)
    Biden 46
    Jorgenson 3
    Hawkins 2

    Wisconsin:
    Biden 47 (+2)
    Trump 45
    Jorgenson 3

    Florida:
    Trump 48 (+2)
    Biden 46
    Jorgenson 2


    Trafalgar group got the winner call in Penn and Michigan right in 2016. That is their entire claim to fame.

    They also said Trump would win Nevada by five and that colorado was a 0.44% lead for Clinton.

    They had some stonking misses in the mid terms.

    Rather suspiciously if you take the polling average for a race and apply a 6 point GOP lean to it then you get amazingly close to the Trafalgar results every time.

    If you phone their phone number on the website it goes through to voicemail every time. They are highly inconsistent in how they say they do polling (including saying they use two undisclosed methods). There is no record of Trafalgar being incorporated in Georgia.

    They appear to have zero clients, they only publish election polling and not on behalf of anyone.

    If they are doing legitimate polling they are the weirdest pollsters.

    Oh, and their owner/chief strategist Robert Cahaly was arrested in South Carolina back in the day for his robocalling activity (the law he was arrested under was found to be unconstitutional)

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Prohass wrote: »
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    Also my parents voted for Trump again because abortion and I'm furious.

    It’s so frustrating because best case scenario for them is that it becomes a states rights issue, in which case the overall amount of abortions will stay the same, it’s just it will even more disproportionately be a procedure available only to the well off who can afford to travel to a blue state.

    If they wanted to actually reduce the overall number of abortions the best thing you could do would be to support birth control and sex ed, which are best in blue states

    But it’s about making abortion as miserable as possible for those who are poor or with few options. It’s always just about punishment and blame for those hanging on to the most vulnerable and lowest rungs of the social ladder

    why would it turn into a states right issue and not just be federally banned?

    Reversing Roe returns us to the status quo ante, which was that state law controlled access.

    Only if the majority of Justices voluntarily decide to return to the status quo ante rather than push it any further. Which... the only reason I can think of to expect that being the case is because rich Republicans still want to have abortion access available to them for a quick "vacation" to California with their daughter/ mistress rather than having to fly to another country.

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  • VermillionPeaceVermillionPeace Registered User regular
    edited October 18
    America totally needs a third/fourth party, even if its just so you can make fun of them like we do in the UK.

    Lets hope Biden doesn't screw things up.

    VermillionPeace on
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    America totally needs a third/fourth party, even if its just so you can make fun of them like we do in the UK.

    Lets hope Biden doesn't screw things up.

    You haven't seen us bagging on the ones we do have :P

    Third parties don't work with FPTP. Fortunately a few states are fixing that.

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    America totally needs a third/fourth party, even if its just so you can make fun of them like we do in the UK.

    Lets hope Biden doesn't screw things up.

    Third and fourth parties will do absolutely nothing positive about our political problems as long as we use a first past the post, winner takes all voting system.

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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited October 18
    Couscous wrote: »
    What is the joke other than "hahaha, wouldn't it be awesome to do this authoritarian thing"?

    It's certainly not a joke to Hillary Clinton (or frankly any non male gendered politician), who even as a retired politician gets the rare treat of turning on her TV to watch thousands of ignorant racists led in a chant for her personal demise by a lawless and unstable sitting president. And Clinton's media and public perception as the wicked witch of the east means she can't even publicly call it out. She just has to grin and bear it.

    Dark_Side on
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  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    Ballot dropped off.

    We are going to beat these bastards back, I promise you.

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  • VermillionPeaceVermillionPeace Registered User regular
    Third and fourth parties will do absolutely nothing positive about our political problems as long as we use a first past the post, winner takes all voting system.

    In the UK the Liberal Democrats got into Government under FPTP, Labour got into power under FTPT. All a PR system would do is help the more extreme parties and make decisive governance damn near impossible as those who are supposed to be ruling are instead bogged down by other factions when the inevitable coalition takes hold. If you look at Belgium you will see an example of how under the Democracy Index why it is rated as a 'flawed democracy'.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Third parties already exist in the US. They exist to syphon votes from the major parties to help the other side win. Republicans love funding the green party to try and knee-cap democrats for example.

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Third and fourth parties will do absolutely nothing positive about our political problems as long as we use a first past the post, winner takes all voting system.

    In the UK the Liberal Democrats got into Government under FPTP, Labour got into power under FTPT. All a PR system would do is help the more extreme parties and make decisive governance damn near impossible as those who are supposed to be ruling are instead bogged down by other factions when the inevitable coalition takes hold. If you look at Belgium you will see an example of how under the Democracy Index why it is rated as a 'flawed democracy'.

    Now do, ooooh...Georgia. Your system doesn't have a separately elected President and you still have to spend half the time before the election figuring out the tactical voting options, and even then you often get scenerios like a seat that goes to a party despite a majority of voters in it voting for someone else. That's FPTP fucking that seat over.

    And then you often get governments who don't even have a plurality of votes.

  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    I'm curious to the type of ads people are seeing in states with actually contested elections right now. Like, what's it like to be a typical voter in that state? What are the Democrats sitting in Ohio, for instance?

  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    PantsB wrote: »
    In Michigan (MI Dem staffer)
    WATCH: John James completely fumbles on @Local4News when pressed on how he'd protect Michiganders with pre-existing conditions. (Hint: it's because he has absolutely no plan to do so) #MISen https://t.co/OA48Pvi4iG
    That is not explicitly the GOP challenger to Sen Peters dropping out but... yeah that is a choke job

    BTW if you are running for Senate you are a politician.

    James is just the latest turd in a suit they decided to run. I think Peters has this well in hand, James’s ads just suck. His latest one is just him moping and pleading about how things in Washington have gone to gridlock and that if we want more of the same we should vote for Peters. Unfortunately for him, MI voters are smarter than stupid fish and know where the real reason lies... with McConnell and the rest of his obstructionist little shitheads, as well as their wannabe dictator president. Plus you KNOW the insurance companies are fucking salivating over being able to use COVID-19 as a pre-existing condition in the future after the Republicans blow up healthcare.


    spool32 wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    In case you were wondering where the laptop stuff is going, Ron Johnson suggested there's child porn on the laptop on Fox News. Which, in retrospect, feels like the obvious direction it would end up going in.

    of course they're feeding the Qanon. Of course Giuliani bought into a Quanon conspiracy.

    That's why Trump won't denounce them... it's because their plan was to use them as an October surprise.

    I think it’s been established that as long as they say nice things about him, Trump will happily take an endorsement from anyone. Hitler could rise from the grave as a zombie and groan happily about Trump, and Donnie will fall all over himself to point out his good points. Satan himself could endorse him and Trump would French-kiss the bastard.live on TV in the Vatican while pissing on the Pope if he did so.

    He might also be hoping the Q morons get up to shit like his militia followers- er, lone wolves- and intimidate voters at the polls and try to go after his opponents.

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  • VermillionPeaceVermillionPeace Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Third parties already exist in the US. They exist to syphon votes from the major parties to help the other side win. Republicans love funding the green party to try and knee-cap democrats for example.

    They do exist indeed but no-one hears of them because of the focus on the two main ones and the outrageous extravagance in their promotion, yes and you can also blame the majority of media over there. One of the reasons why I never intend to visit America, though imagine a Republican/Green coalition.

  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    Third and fourth parties will do absolutely nothing positive about our political problems as long as we use a first past the post, winner takes all voting system.

    In the UK the Liberal Democrats got into Government under FPTP, Labour got into power under FTPT. All a PR system would do is help the more extreme parties and make decisive governance damn near impossible as those who are supposed to be ruling are instead bogged down by other factions when the inevitable coalition takes hold. If you look at Belgium you will see an example of how under the Democracy Index why it is rated as a 'flawed democracy'.

    The US doesn’t share the UK’s political system, it’s apples to oranges. And from judging from how the UK thread talks about how the Tories cleaned up on the last election and are currently plunging the country into a No Deal Brexit during an economic downturn in the midst of a pandemic, FPTP doesn’t seem to be the answer IMO.

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  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    First past the post is one of the worst election systems out there that isn't deliberately designed to be bad.

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Third parties already exist in the US. They exist to syphon votes from the major parties to help the other side win. Republicans love funding the green party to try and knee-cap democrats for example.

    They do exist indeed but no-one hears of them because of the focus on the two main ones and the outrageous extravagance in their promotion, yes and you can also blame the majority of media over there. One of the reasons why I never intend to visit America, though imagine a Republican/Green coalition.

    You realize coalition government isn't a thing under the US system, right?

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  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    Third and fourth parties will do absolutely nothing positive about our political problems as long as we use a first past the post, winner takes all voting system.

    In the UK the Liberal Democrats got into Government under FPTP, Labour got into power under FTPT. All a PR system would do is help the more extreme parties and make decisive governance damn near impossible as those who are supposed to be ruling are instead bogged down by other factions when the inevitable coalition takes hold. If you look at Belgium you will see an example of how under the Democracy Index why it is rated as a 'flawed democracy'.

    The US doesn’t share the UK’s political system, it’s apples to oranges. And from judging from how the UK thread talks about how the Tories cleaned up on the last election and are currently plunging the country into a No Deal Brexit during an economic downturn in the midst of a pandemic, FPTP doesn’t seem to be the answer IMO.

    The UK system is absolutely not one that the US should be copying. We've got very similar problems to the ones that arise from your electoral college, although not quite as obviously.

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  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Third parties already exist in the US. They exist to syphon votes from the major parties to help the other side win. Republicans love funding the green party to try and knee-cap democrats for example.

    They do exist indeed but no-one hears of them because of the focus on the two main ones and the outrageous extravagance in their promotion, yes and you can also blame the majority of media over there. One of the reasons why I never intend to visit America, though imagine a Republican/Green coalition.

    It’d help if the Greens were more their own party and less a secret wing of the Republicans (getting funding, support, legal help, etc. from them). As they are now they just exist to sponge votes off the Dems.

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  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Third and fourth parties will do absolutely nothing positive about our political problems as long as we use a first past the post, winner takes all voting system.

    In the UK the Liberal Democrats got into Government under FPTP, Labour got into power under FTPT. All a PR system would do is help the more extreme parties and make decisive governance damn near impossible as those who are supposed to be ruling are instead bogged down by other factions when the inevitable coalition takes hold. If you look at Belgium you will see an example of how under the Democracy Index why it is rated as a 'flawed democracy'.

    Belgium has its own problems not linked to its proportional system. The issues stem from a complicated power sharing between the different ethno-linguistic groups (chiefly Wallonia (Dutch-speaking) and Flandern (French-speaking)).

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Third parties already exist in the US. They exist to syphon votes from the major parties to help the other side win. Republicans love funding the green party to try and knee-cap democrats for example.

    They do exist indeed but no-one hears of them because of the focus on the two main ones and the outrageous extravagance in their promotion, yes and you can also blame the majority of media over there. One of the reasons why I never intend to visit America, though imagine a Republican/Green coalition.

    None of that actually counters anything I just pointed out. The parties already exist. They run ads and make pointless runs for the presidency and everything. Electorally they either do nothing or syphon votes away from one of the two main parties in order to help the other main party win easier.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    OremLK wrote: »
    538 posted one of their Confidence Interval thingies yesterday discussing the odds that Democrats take the trifecta. Not too interested in the punditry aspect, but he did say he crunched the numbers using their model to figure out the odds of Democrats taking the Presidency, House, and Senate combined, and it came out as 70%. Also, IIRC it was about a coin flip to get 52+ in the Senate

    The chance of them taking the trifecta is basically the chance of them taking the Senate, since there is virtually no plausible path to the Senate that doesn't include taking both the House and the presidency on the way.

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Third parties already exist in the US. They exist to syphon votes from the major parties to help the other side win. Republicans love funding the green party to try and knee-cap democrats for example.

    They do exist indeed but no-one hears of them because of the focus on the two main ones and the outrageous extravagance in their promotion, yes and you can also blame the majority of media over there. One of the reasons why I never intend to visit America, though imagine a Republican/Green coalition.

    You realize coalition government isn't a thing under the US system, right?

    It technically is, independents in congress often align with a major party for organizational purposes, and can theoretically determine which major party gets the majority and minority positions.

    If there were ever more than 3-5 of them in both houses combined it might even come into play.

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