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[Stellaris] Robo Mommy Returns to Dom Meatbags [Machine Age DLC]

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    EvmaAlsar wrote: »
    Just when I thought I was going to enjoy 2.8, they talk about future plans in devlogs today.

    Key notes that made me go hnnnngh:
    • Industrial districts are coming back to the game, providing 1 artisan and 1 metallurgist pop each.
    • Buildings will no longer be locked to pop count, but rather unlocked through the development of the planet. City and industrial districts, together with administrative buildings and some tradition perks will increase building count. This allows you to 'prebuild' a planet without having to wait for pops to grow.
    • Average size of homeworlds will be increased by 2 due to districts being more important than before.
    • No cap on industrial districts to a planet, like city districts. Forgeworlds just got that much better.
    • Factory / Forge buildings still exist, but act as a resource multiplier, like the energy grid for generator districts, or food processing centres for agricultural districts.
    • Since industrial districts are considered urban, they count towards paving a planet to prepare it for conversion into an Ecumenalopolis through the arcology project.
    • Specialised / advanced worlds such as Ecumenalopoli, Ring Worlds, Hive worlds, and Machine worlds start with all of their building slots unlocked.
    • Habitats will not gain building slots by building Habitation modules. They are intended to be cramped, but Voidborne ascension perk will still help out there.
    • Megacorp branch office building slots are tied to capital building upgrade level on the planet, up to 3. A 4th building slot is only available if the target empire has the Insider Trading tradition.

    This is all in service to their plans to improve automation, which will be covered in the next devlog.

    I am not sure what I think about some of those changes. That sounds like a fairly huge habitat nerf.

    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    It'll be weird not having to have both a forge world and a consumer goods world.

    Like, that's a mind-blowing change to me.

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    MillMill Registered User regular
    I figure if they do go through with it, they'll probably adjust a few things with consumer good consumption because that is a big problem with the change, is that a bunch of empire setups will be swimming in consumer goods. I do see how that might be a possible boost to the egalitarian ethic because if you're going to have a shit ton of consumer goods, you might as well pop utopian abundance early.

    Another thing they don't cover is how they'll adjust things for gestalt empires because all but one don't use consumer goods. Rogue servitor does use them, but no where in the number that everyone else doe for most of the game.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    Mill wrote: »
    I figure if they do go through with it, they'll probably adjust a few things with consumer good consumption because that is a big problem with the change, is that a bunch of empire setups will be swimming in consumer goods. I do see how that might be a possible boost to the egalitarian ethic because if you're going to have a shit ton of consumer goods, you might as well pop utopian abundance early.

    Another thing they don't cover is how they'll adjust things for gestalt empires because all but one don't use consumer goods. Rogue servitor does use them, but no where in the number that everyone else doe for most of the game.

    From Dev Diary.
    Gestalts have either two Foundry Drones or Fabricators as appropriate.

    Also this is going to change things enough I really should finish up that game with gray to the point I'm happy with (I have no win condition) cos I doubt I'll be able to just move on with that one. I know its a while away but I could easily leave it months between booting up the game again.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    EvmaAlsarEvmaAlsar Birmingham, EnglandRegistered User regular
    Forcing you to go 1/1 on artisans and metallurgists makes me very not happy. To me the only part that I luke-warmed like about the current planet management system was the decision between funneling minerals into econ/tech for consumer goods or military alloys.

    It makes the policy for civilian or military industrial production useful if you want more output in consumer goods or alloys.

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    YoshisummonsYoshisummons You have to let the dead vote, otherwise you'd just kill people you disagree with!Registered User regular
    EvmaAlsar wrote: »
    Forcing you to go 1/1 on artisans and metallurgists makes me very not happy. To me the only part that I luke-warmed like about the current planet management system was the decision between funneling minerals into econ/tech for consumer goods or military alloys.

    It makes the policy for civilian or military industrial production useful if you want more output in consumer goods or alloys.
    Wait did people not use that policy before? I pretty much always did because it rewards specialization, with the policy choosing 15% on one and -25% on the other if you go 50/50 like they want with these districts on pops producing alloys/consumer goods you're flat out losing 5% of the resources if you use it.
    If you go 90/10 on like consumer goods/alloys AND use the policy for 15% consumer goods you're coming out ahead on resources.

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    GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII They wanna get my gold on the ceilingRegistered User regular
    Huh. These changes sound pretty significant. Seems like it will be a great time to jump back in and test things out.

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    MillMill Registered User regular
    So went through the dev diary finally, instead of the bullet points posted here.

    Further thoughts.
    -I'm hoping this come some additional changes to machine empires because last I checked, they didn't need a buff and this is going to be a buff for them.
    -I forgot about the policy for economies. Thing is though, it depends on what you're doing. There are some setups where once your out the gate, it defaults to a specialized economy. I'm not sure how much the policies are helped, given a big thing is to go with the consumer benefits trade policy and further reduce the need for consumer good production jobs.

    I'm thinking some of the changes are lined up to deal with a few key complaints that have been around for a bit.
    -Automation sucks and this appears to be a possible solution.
    -Authoritarian and slaving empires are too powerful. I'm betting money that these changes are going to be paired with adjustments to consumer good upkeep for a few jobs. They really can't not do that, otherwise people will whine about how they get nothing for all the consumer goods they end up selling off. Anyways, those setups are notorious for needing very few consumer goods. This probably makes it easier for the opposing empire types to more readily get consumer goods, while providing a few levers where authoritarian and slaving setups have to care more about consumer good production.
    -Admin cap is too easily ignored. I'll wager that one adjustment to consumer good upkeep is going to tied to sprawl. More sprawl will mean higher consumer good upkeep. Also wouldn't be surprised if bureaucrats ended up needing more consumer goods than they already do.
    -Current planet building isn't fun. They've managed to keep jobs tied to pops still, but are acknowledge it's a bit dumb that someone can build out every district on their planets with just one pop present, mind it's a bad idea, but are tightly constrained by pops in regards to buildings. Also depending on how things get setup, districts can be a great thing ensure admin cap matters and more freedom with building does give players some alternatives to get jobs created, when they might not want to increase sprawl. Yes, pops generate sprawl, but buildings do not.

    All that said, I hope they do take a look at strategies people employ to game the system. With a glut of consumer goods, that does open the option to maybe flag a few jobs so that it takes time for pops to fully mesh with them. A big strategy with some builds is to have a shit ton of bureaucrats to keep research and tradition costs down when you want to quickly research those. Then flip them into either consumer good and/or allow production when you need to boost production of those, while also stockpiling them. A simple solution is that when a pop moves from one specialized job to another, they eat a malus to output and require more consumer good upkeep for retraining. It would be minorly annoying for players that don't use the trick, but would probably make the tactic far less effective if it's going to take time before those fully get into gear for max production and end up need a shit ton of additional consumer goods in the interim.

    One thing I would love to see them experiment with. They mentioned this might screw more rural planets on the building slot front. If they do more specialized buildings, they could do introduce some that could only be built on rural worlds and you have to hit a decision for them (think resort worlds). Activating the decision opens up the last few slots, but locks you into only filling those slots with those specialized buildings.

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    BremenBremen Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    Mill wrote: »
    I figure if they do go through with it, they'll probably adjust a few things with consumer good consumption because that is a big problem with the change, is that a bunch of empire setups will be swimming in consumer goods. I do see how that might be a possible boost to the egalitarian ethic because if you're going to have a shit ton of consumer goods, you might as well pop utopian abundance early.

    Another thing they don't cover is how they'll adjust things for gestalt empires because all but one don't use consumer goods. Rogue servitor does use them, but no where in the number that everyone else doe for most of the game.

    Researchers and culture workers continue to use consumer goods, so it seems to me that it basically just sets up a ratio - you build industrial districts and research buildings in whatever ratio you need to get your alloys and research without either a large surplus or deficit of consumer goods. Which is better than a setup that inevitably leads to a consumer goods surplus, but at the same time I'd prefer more meaningful choices when it comes to planning an economy than having a setup that basically just tells you "build 4 x for every 5 y".

    Bremen on
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    MillMill Registered User regular
    With some of the authoritarian builds that really exploit all the stuff that reduces consumer goods upkeep. That's pretty much what your doing, for every x, you build yz to ensure adequate consumer goods and some of those don't have to build much in the way of civilian industries. Granted, I'd also argue these builds don't incur enough risk either for what they are doing. Just keep stability high enough that the masses get screwed won't rebel. I mean, there is a reason why a number of people on their forums have been complaining about authoritarian and slaving builds being too powerful.

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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
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    Oversized? District-poor? Buckle up, it's Arcology time!

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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    79A241B9189858FB30CA6AB1769B4867FEC76CD0

    The city on the edge of the Horizon. Man I wish I could see the view.

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    Well, 2.8.0 broke mod support really bad. Even by Paradox's own standards. Even a relatively small mod list can lead to a permanent hang on loading. Until I figure out how to use Irony MM to merge mods (which may fix the issue, and will cause problems when mods are updated), back to 2.7.2 for me. :(

    Synthesis on
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    MillMill Registered User regular
    Yeah, they really need to fix their mod shit. It's kind of bullshit that say, running a mod that just changes portraits needs to be fucking updates for every fucking patch. Like their code needs to be smarter and actually allow a test to see if a mode might be in need of updates. Instead the garbage setup where every mod that doesn't change a single line of code to be like current for current patch, gets flagged as being out of date.

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    FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    The portrait mod stuff doesn't actually need to be updated every patch. Their mod system just uses a simple check where the mod creator literally just tells their system what version it works for -- the most you can do is like 1.10.*, making it where the mod will show as current for every version that is 1.10.____, but you can't put the wildcard before that. So if patch 1.11 is deployed but doesn't change the portrait system at all, the mod will show as out of date but still work perfectly. You can easily "update" a mod now to show as compatible with 2.8 but it actually breaks the game terribly and hasn't been updated in years, or a brand new mod that works perfectly with 2.8.0 but shows as only supporting older versions. It's just a line in a text file.

    The only time I'm aware of that Paradox specifically fucked up all mods is when they migrated everything to their new launcher over the last year or so. It was kind of infuriating trying to figure all of that stuff out for the mods I'd made in HoI4 (the same thing happened in Stellaris), but it was at least a one time thing.

    Outside of that, if a mod breaks it's because the mod specifically interacts with a system that was substantially changed by the patch. Or, the mod author just made a really dirty mod that changes a lot of stuff it doesn't need to. I once saw a HoI4 mod prevent the AI from using planes, and the mod was made to tweak one system that was completely unrelated. But the mod author did it in the worst possible way, and any update Paradox made would break their mod terribly. It definitely wasn't Paradox's fault!

    Fiatil on
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    MillMill Registered User regular
    I really think the they could take the time to have a feature on the launcher called "evaluate mods." Player hits said button and the game launcher will go through each mod to parse the code. If there are no problems, it flags the mod as update. If something no longer works or breaks horrible, it flags the mod as being incompatible. Downside is yeah, you can't play while it's running, but that would be a massive QoL change for everyone. If they really wanted to be fancy, you even have an automated setup where mod creators can be notified that their mod no longer works. Then they have an option to either update the mod or send back to the system a notice saying "hey, I don't intend to work on this mode anymore." In the case of the later, the system can then move the mod an archive and if someone wants to resurrect it and update it they can. If no one does, the mode compatibility system could always check that and have a new flag for "this mod is broken and has been archived," anything with that flag can then be excluded from the check because no point in reconfirming it's broken.

    I mean, they really do need work on making mod management less of a hassle. Part of that is having smart code that doesn't constantly flag certain mods that have been untouched as being out of date. I feel like they do enough updates that it is needed.

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    MillMill Registered User regular
    So going to crowd source because I suspect I did find at least one bug that probably needs to be reports, maybe more.

    In my current game, I got one of the portal tiles. Specifically portal of suffering, which I kept open because I'm playing a death cult with post-apocalyptic origin, so why wouldn't eye. I'm noticing this might be one of the few jobs where the damn game can't make up it's mind on who works. The planet generates a new pop and then for whatever reason, the game fires the current portal worker and employs the new pop. This is problematic because that's a hit to stability, since it's an unemployed specialized. I don't know if it's unique to this specific portal or if it's all portals. I plan on hitting up their bug forum and mentioning it because it's really annoying. I can also see this being something that fucks with performance if the game can't stick to keeping a pop hired for portals. Not sure how many we can get in a single game. Three? If it's more than that, then yeah, that could lead to some performance problems if it's cycling through pops for that job, when it shouldn't.

    Both zroni and baol precursor events fucking suck. I've nuked games because I'll get one of them and then find out the next part of the chain spawned 20 systems away inside the turf of another empire. Like I get the idea they were going for, but something needs to change because often, I've found just crappy spawning with these can completely kill my motivation to continue a game. If it's an empire that I want to crush, I can deal. Problem is, I'm not a war monger and I've had it spawn sites in empires, that I actually want as allies. A simple solution might be to make these sites unique and allow empires to excavate them if the site is in another empire and the player gets an agreement to do so.

    Priki-ti-ki seem like they are bugged. I tend to paly on easier settings and I've noticed anytime these assholes show up, they run rampant. I actually bothered to take control of the empire in one game to see what was going with them and noted they had like new resources in most places. Then I proceeded to disband and fire all their shit to see what would happen, took them less than a year to rebuild and rehire. I know they adjusted them and they seemed to work at intended after that fix until, I want to say federations. I don't know if in federations they got a buff or if the devs manage to break something with them, i want to say they managed to break something because if these guys spawn early, at least on ensign level, none of the empires next to stem stand a chance and I doubt that was intended. Though curious to hear if that trend continues up into higher difficulties or if this might be a case of the scaling not working right.

    The new colony event with worm in waiting, needs an adjustment. If you play to the end, you lose the entire colony. Now if you know this you try to avoid having all those delightful free pops go poof. Well, I empty the colony before doing the final bit. Can't remember if the science ship finished it or not because got distracted. Anyways recolonized the planet and the unique tiles were there along with the districts. Once I got my third pop there, it didn't take any of the open jobs. So this likely a bug, granted I'll see if it is fixed when reopen the game. Anyways, I'm pretty sure this was written before pops became the end all be all and this par to of the chain should probably adjusted. Losing jus the colony wouldn't be so bad, but the lost pops is a huge blow and then the whole issue of sometimes you don't get much choice in what new colony gets this, so the option to have a happiness malus, which I want to say could total up to 15%, might just 5% appealing either. It just feels bad all the way around, regardless of the rewards.

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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    Mill wrote: »
    The new colony event with worm in waiting, needs an adjustment. If you play to the end, you lose the entire colony. Now if you know this you try to avoid having all those delightful free pops go poof. Well, I empty the colony before doing the final bit. Can't remember if the science ship finished it or not because got distracted. Anyways recolonized the planet and the unique tiles were there along with the districts. Once I got my third pop there, it didn't take any of the open jobs. So this likely a bug, granted I'll see if it is fixed when reopen the game. Anyways, I'm pretty sure this was written before pops became the end all be all and this par to of the chain should probably adjusted. Losing jus the colony wouldn't be so bad, but the lost pops is a huge blow and then the whole issue of sometimes you don't get much choice in what new colony gets this, so the option to have a happiness malus, which I want to say could total up to 15%, might just 5% appealing either. It just feels bad all the way around, regardless of the rewards.

    That's not always the case. Many events(this one included) have different outcomes based on RNG and your decisions(mainly not chickening out or purging the colony). Granted if you're on ironman it's probably best practice to just assume it will happen, but losing the entire colony is only a 25% chance.

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    MillMill Registered User regular
    Chance or not, it still feels like crap. Like I said, I'm pretty sure this event was done before the new economy, so it probably felt a little less crap. It really needs an adjustment to the rewards. If the colony vanishes, maybe have it so that the science team finds a stash of processed alloys and consumer good that are inexplicably there. A nice tidy a batch of strategic resources could also be a good option. There is also the whole thing of resettlement being in the crosshairs for an adjustment of some sort and that will make this feel even crappier. It really comes down to populations being to valuable. I don't think they should remove the colony having a chance to disappear because I think that the chance of it happening is integral to the event's storytelling. Just that losing the entire colony should should come with some sort of perk where the player might take it because again if you get alloys, consumer goods or a mix of strategic resources or mix of all those, it might be worth eating the pop hit because that's a huge shot in the arm to get other things online. Also that could be done in a way that keeps with the feel of the event. The colony mysteriously vanished as if it never existed. No foot prints of any technological civilization are present. Oddly enough these resources were found in a condition ready to be used straight away but it doesn't appear they were processed by an intelligent civilization and certainly not us and they are just sitting their ready to use.

    Anyways, Aspec did a video on the new dev diary. I think this might make it easier to digest and it really missed a few things on my only read through.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zcsa-LIecV4&ab_channel=ASpec

    I'm still pretty worried that habitats will be left in the cold; especially, if this means not being able to unlock on building slots. One thing I hope they at least consider, have colonies get flagged in a way that keeps a permanent flag for exceeding a certain population threshold that is required for opening slots. This would go a long ways to dealing with the issue of being boned by a pop dying, moving or being stolen and losing a critical building slot. Also hard to say if forge worlds are really getting a buff here because he goes into how the system will work here. I think they only really get a buff if you don't need strategic resources for those jobs. My gut says it might be a slight one because I don't see them going with a setup that an mean doing the planet upgrade that ups you jobs in those districts suddenly increases you volatile mote or crystal needs by a ton. Granted they might if it means also hitting a decision. I'm willing to bet those resources probably have their consumption increased for the forge and civilian industry buildings that are now unique, granted I'm curious if they will have the upgrades or not. My hope is they do away with that because engineering tree needs trimming, granted it probably won't be four less techs in there from such a change because I doubt those two buildings continue to be baseline technologies. Also looking at all the implications, they can probably trim the techs that boost metallurgist and artisan job productions because this change does make it easier to get alloys and that would be some much needed trimming to the engineering tree, even if it's just a few techs going away.

    A interesting implication is how this is going to impact developed specialize worlds. This seems like an outright buff to tech and bureaucratic worlds, you aren't going to fill every district on those with city districts and there is compelling reason to slap down an industrial district to pick up more consumer goods to keep those properly supplied. Same deal with unity production planets, but I don't think there is much value in those these day. On the other hand this is a straight nerf to industrial worlds that solely focus on consumer goods. Yes, that means having a plane that doesn't make any alloys, just like forge worlds won't create consumer goods. It's just people are going to offload consumer production onto their tech worlds, bureaucratic worlds should they build them and various unity worlds, should they build them. Before someone goes, "but Mill rural districts will be even more important and you'll want to get those in where you can!" Yes, you will but in this fairy thread we have a screen shot of a district poor world with fuck all in the way of rural districts and that isn't going to change with this future update. You're going to still get lots of planets where you get 15 tiles, 6 of which can be rural and the rest will either city or industrial districts and the split will probably be based on how much housing you need and how much of that you want as districts. I prefer districts because I prefer to fill my building slots with shit for production, though this has an interesting ramification because any forge worlds I create, along with any industrial worlds will likely be worlds that I prefer housing buildings on. Another possible loser here is refinery worlds, depending on how costs are done, I wouldn't be surprised if people used this even less because once housing needs are covered on a forge or industrial world and all worthwhile unique buildings are constructed, it actually makes a ton of sense to fill in remaining slots with refineries.

    Finally, this is a buff to rural worlds. This is going to likely result in us burning through minerals and energy credits quicker. Even if you're like me and prefer city districts for housing needs and then filling in remaining districts as rural, once housing is covered. This is going to create a scenario where even less districts are used for basic resources and forge industrial worlds likely won't have any. They'll even less of them on capital worlds. I'm hoping this comes with new building, as I said, I'd love to see building unique to rural worlds. Currently, the only rural world you can go all in on is agricultural worlds, I'll leave aside that filling building slots with hydroponics farms might not be the most optimal approach, even with industrial districts being added back in because food isn't that valuable. Mining and Generator worlds really don't have that option. Part of that comes down to the fact that you probably don't get enough districts for it as a normal, megacorp or hive empire, also a problem for agricultural worlds as well. It would be nice if it was possible to really go all in a mining world, where most of what is on it is mining focused. On that note, this would a good way to reduce the disparity between those previous mentioned empires against machine and synth empires. One easy trick to make the district angle less of a problem is that the energy nexus and mineral processing plant buildings all increase the potential number of districts that can be generator or mining. Maybe machine and synth get more then the other empires still, or their version have less upkeep but it is an option they should look into. I'm not sure what I'd like to see with unique buildings for rural worlds, hell I'd even be fine if those unique buildings didn't boost basic resource production, but were things you'd want and thus want a rural world or two for.

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    WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    I wasn't very interested in the Necrophage Origin, because weird zombie parasites or whatever just aren't my thing, until I realised something important.

    These are Space Vampires.

    So, yeah, decided to give Necrophages a go anyway, as a bunch of snooty, aristocratic vampires. In space.

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    MillMill Registered User regular
    Necrophage is pretty crazy with some setups. A fun one is to go with a non-purifier build that is also lithoid. This let's you bypass a huge weak point of lithoids because you can have your other race be normal, fast breeding organics. Only downside is that while you're main species can live damn near anywhere, you'll have to either adjust your other species to have better habitability for some worlds or find a way to get another one. Still pretty powerful setup. I wouldn't use it with purifiers though because you'll burn through the fodder species really fast and not have the pop growth you'd probably want in order to product enough of everything else to take on the galaxy.

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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    I’ve been playing my fanatic materialist/egalitarian necrophages as kind of a shepherd high-evolutionary kind of race, running around modifying various conquered or assimilated pops. Everyone is equal, especially when it comes to being converted into a technoorganic abomination.

    The only thing I am a bit annoyed about is that you pretty much have to go down the biological ascension path because synthetic borks necrophage pop -conversion (it does give you fair warning though). So if you want to assimilate everyone into the cyborg technocore you still pretty much have to go with a machine empire.

    Also it helps to have bio ascension or lithoid so your master race can get decent habitability anyway (kind of embarassing to keep losing productivity to habitability because you convert arctic natives into an arid master race), so its not a great loss mechanically, just annoying from a RP point of view.

    Edit: you can still take flesh is weak and manually build synth pops though if that is your desire, the only thing that breaks necrophage is going through with converting everyone into synths. Cyborg necrophages + using the extra perk on something else is probably pretty good in and of itself because the cyborg bonuses fit well with necro.

    Jealous Deva on
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    MillMill Registered User regular
    cyborg lithoid necrophages is probably really silly. You leaders I think easily live for over 200 years before adding in any techs from research or event stuff that boosts lifespans. I want to say that puts everything on the board for 100% habitability before we get into some of the specialized worlds. Major downside is you don't want to go all the way down that ascension path. Not unless you know how to keep some of your main species pops from being converted and I want to say the devs made that harder.

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    AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Mill wrote: »
    cyborg lithoid necrophages is probably really silly. You leaders I think easily live for over 200 years before adding in any techs from research or event stuff that boosts lifespans. I want to say that puts everything on the board for 100% habitability before we get into some of the specialized worlds. Major downside is you don't want to go all the way down that ascension path. Not unless you know how to keep some of your main species pops from being converted and I want to say the devs made that harder.

    Fanatic Authoritarian Aristocratic Elite / Police State necrophages are pretty good at sorting the immediately-nearby habitable planets out while staying competitive on Unity, too.

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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    Mill wrote: »
    cyborg lithoid necrophages is probably really silly. You leaders I think easily live for over 200 years before adding in any techs from research or event stuff that boosts lifespans. I want to say that puts everything on the board for 100% habitability before we get into some of the specialized worlds. Major downside is you don't want to go all the way down that ascension path. Not unless you know how to keep some of your main species pops from being converted and I want to say the devs made that harder.

    Yeah. Flesh is weak by itself isn’t terrible though. Cyborg is not quite as useful as robust, but that is a 4 point trait and cyborg is free. You also get the robot bonuses that come with it. Is it worth giving up bio ascension (which basically gives you nice traits for all your organic pops, not just leaders)? Probably not, but maybe, depending on what you do with the extra perk.

    Jealous Deva on
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    EvmaAlsarEvmaAlsar Birmingham, EnglandRegistered User regular
    You don't need to go full bio ascension to help habitability for necrophages. Once I got the society tech 'glandular something or other' that lets you alter the preferred climate of a species, I noticed necrophages converting the native pops of conquered planets to that planet's biome instead of that of their homeworld by default. Either way, you can set climate preference by planet if it doesn't default to optimal habitability for you.

    Any machine race players got any tips for amenities that doesn't require having to dedicate half your population to maintenance drone jobs? I feel robots are still pretty nerfed in that regard.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    Damn I was gonna go synthetic ascension but i don't have the tech yet despite being ready for it. I also wanna get megastructures (personal goal, not for effectiveness) but I don't have any of the ruined megastructures.

    There's a couple of empty ones in empty systems lying around. One is bottlenecked by a raider. The raider doesn't have it. Not really any way to get to it.

    Only I just got jump drives.

    What uh, what happens if I grab a system right next to a raider?

    Otherwise there's another one in empty space quite far away but itll take me like 9 years to get enough influence to grab that system.

    I may need to end up going to war in late game just to grab me a megastructure.

    Or wait till I can obliterate those raiders at least.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    Mill wrote: »
    Necrophage is pretty crazy with some setups. A fun one is to go with a non-purifier build that is also lithoid. This let's you bypass a huge weak point of lithoids because you can have your other race be normal, fast breeding organics. Only downside is that while you're main species can live damn near anywhere, you'll have to either adjust your other species to have better habitability for some worlds or find a way to get another one. Still pretty powerful setup. I wouldn't use it with purifiers though because you'll burn through the fodder species really fast and not have the pop growth you'd probably want in order to product enough of everything else to take on the galaxy.


    You can also selectively purge when you want more pops. Purging as a necrophage automatically converts the purged pops to the necro species, so you can just keep "cattle worlds" that you cull whenever the population gets big enough.

    Donnicton on
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    MillMill Registered User regular
    Sadly, I think gestalts get hobbled by amenities. It's something I want the devs to revisit. As much as machines need some adjustments to make them less powerful, it just feels crappy to need some many pops running maintenance and culling out deviant units to maintain high stability. I think the last time I did a machine empire, like a fourth to a third my building slots ended up being dedicated to just keeping amenities good an deviancy down. Big factor came down to how many pops I could get away with on the planet, so high tile worlds ironically, ended up being slightly worse for specialization than medium sized worlds.

    Anyways, someone mentioned it would be awesome if they went back and added some stuff to the old species packs. I can get the argument for being really careful about having traits tied to portraits because someone might really want the portrait, but not the mechanics that go with it. IMO this is what portrait mods are for. Anyways, I've been mulling over two ideas for plantoids pack and humanoid pack. Origins are a fantastic idea in this regards.

    Plantoid origin: Thunder Dome Pastures.

    -Requires species to have either plantoid or fungoid portrait. I'm away that plants and fungus are very different on some levels, but doesn't sit well with me to have an origin that only works with plantoid portraits, when you could easily shoe in fungoid portraits.

    -Must be authoritarian or fanatical authoritarian.

    -Main species gains trait Thunder Dome Pastures. Housing needs are increased, resettlement costs are dramatically increased and migration is also decreased. Pops also use a small amount of minerals as upkeep. Main species pops will produce a small amount of energy credits and food credits. Pop growth increased by 20%. Instability from being homeless or unemployed is decreased. Finally, species habitability increased by 5% or maybe 10%.

    -Empire gets a modifier that increases storage capacity for energy and food.

    -Empire gets unique planetary decision the weak shall feed the strong. With a CD of either 5 or 10 years. Upon activation pop growth for main species and subspecies of this species will cease on the world for one month. The main species will enter combat with itself purging the weakest until there is no longer any homelessness or unemployment. At the end of the month pops on the planet will have their happiness increased by 5%. Additionally, the play will receive unity, food and energy for each purged pop. Also all pops of your main species will be consider at the lowest stratum and thus will fill in all available jobs. Also authoritarian ethic attraction increased by 150%.

    I'm trying to play a bit on the concept of death cults without it being a cult. Also do something different with the obvious photosynthesis suggestion of they don't use food, which plants actually do. I think I think it might be neat if this could be tweaked where the empire needs tons of housing, but the planetary decision means the player can afford to forgo having to build nearly as many food and generator districts because the idea is you intentionally let you planets get crowded with homeless and unemployed pops that are then purged to stockpile a ton of energy and food. So the empire goes through cycles of pop growth and pop purges to keep the economy working. Also turns some of the typical pop approaches on it's head, you make it too expensive to move pops around on a whim and have pop growth as such, that it's not insane to kill those pops to feed your empire two needed base resources. The idea behind the main species having their stratum reset to lowest is so that if someone has other species that can be specialist or rules, that you don't get slammed with a ton of unemployment because those pops fill somehow end up filling in those jobs before the game uses the main species to fill in jobs. I'll admit, it does have hilarious potential quirk where someone might end up killing off their main species if they manage to the numbers right for it to happen. The authoritarian requirement and attraction is meant to ensure that it's not feasible for someone to run with this as an egalitarian and run utopian abundance. I'll admit this might be a bit too ambitious of an idea or that this might be one of my not so great ideas.

    Humanoid pack origin: Pre-FTL multi planet species.

    -No portrait requirement

    -Must select government type democratic

    -You start with two colonized worlds in your home system. Each planet will have 15 pops for normal empires, 20 for megacorps.

    -Gets guaranteed terraforming candidate worlds in place of guaranteed planets. These worlds will be flagged so that only the empire with this origin can recognize them as terraforming candidates.

    -Has a unique event chain.

    I admit this is a bit of a boring idea, but they haven't done an origin like this and it would be a fairly easy one to put together and makes a ton of sense to have an origin. The event chain would be a way to make it a bit more interesting from a narrative angle. Said chain probably wouldn't need to give out super good rewards because you'd be starting with to habitable worlds in your home system (blacksites ae amazing, just saying) that have already had been developed to some degree. The democratic government type would be explained with the event chain, pretty much no way the system was going to unit unless all parties felt they had equal say, even if their homeworld didn't get chosen as the capital.

    I'd have to see if we have any other species packs, I want to say we do but I could be wrong. Another origin that would be simple enough to put together. Call it invaded. Basic gist, another empire attempted to subjugate the your empire before it achieved FTL. For whatever reason, this attempt failed. You have to have the militarist ethic and you start out with a slightly bigger fleet and some investment in the supremacy tree. I'd pair this one up with an event of it's own because narrative stuff, done well adds to replayablity. This origin means there will be an empire out there that gets some form of advance start to put them ahead of you and when you find them relations are going to be hostile from the get go for obvious reasons. Hell, the chain could be about figuring out who they were, where they are and why they failed. Fun thing about the last part is you can have RNG determine why and this adds some avenues to for additional replay value. In one scenario a fallen empire intervened on your behalf. Another, a greater threat emerged and attacked the invading empire and maybe this forces a route where the two of you have to reconcile because that threat shows back up and it's not empire. You could even go a route where that empire doesn't exist anymore and they were completely destroyed either by themselves, another empire or a dangerous threat that you now have to confront. There are a ton of angles that could be played with here.


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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    One thing I wish is that you could have more control over the empires in the federation and lost colony starts.

    Like right now I have a lost colony democratic crusaders, it would be nice to be able to force ethics of the host empire to authoritarian so it doesn’t end up that my freedom fighters are refugees from an idyllic egalitarian pacifist utopia.

    Similarly would be nice to be able to do a united federation with humans vulcans and andorans rather than humans and 2 random wierdo civs.

    We can set species for syncretic evolution and necrophage, adding settings for those origins shouldn’t be that hard?

    Jealous Deva on
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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    Holy crap criminal syndicates are the most annoying shits to be neighbors with.

    “Here’s 100 crime on your homeworld, you can either accept it and lose 3 pops and a ton of trade value to criminality or lose 2 building slots to police buildings to counter it.”

    Ok guys, how about option 3 - I conquer your homeworld and you are all now all going to be assimilated into necrophages. Assholes.

    Jealous Deva on
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    MillMill Registered User regular
    Giving that espionage is going to be a thing in a future patch. I'm hoping they go with passive because that is the form that will cause the least problems. Active sounds fine on paper when you're the one doing it, but goes to shit when you're on the receiving end; especially, given how people will find a way to game it for maximum benefit. If anyone watched the stream that paradox put together for the necroid release, there was one point where one streamer was particular irate with how a well known streamer for mix/maxing, Stefan Anon, found a way to crank out fleets on par with a fallen empire (anyone's guess if the devs gave him some help or not). Pretty much the streamer mentioned it was fun to play with and there are a number of players like that. Also even if you delve into single player, it's easy to get a setup where the AI becomes really fucking obnoxious and the game becomes unfun, unless you find a mod to break it.

    Anyways, I've been thinking on the whole invaded origin concept I've mulled. It seems like such an obvious origin to have in the game and I have wonder if the devs did actually do a fair bit with developing it and opted to save it for an expansion where it could work really well. Honestly, it would fit great with an espionage expansion; especially, if your empire never gets the name of the empire that invaded them or recover any identifiable bodies. Then you could have a bit where the passive espionage is about figuring out which existing empire it is, assuming they didn't get destroyed and then figuring out what their power is to you relatively because your empire is hellbent on having it revenge.

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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    Hrm, one thing I think I have noticed with my necrophages - its really tempting to build ascension buildings on every colony, but I think that may be a waste of buildings at least until you have bigger colonies and more efficient buildings, my capital seems to make more than enough pops to fill up ruler level positions on other worlds, and I feel like I may have been better off using the building slots on other worlds on robots and research labs, or alloy/goods production.

    Assuming you have resettlement on, but I can’t really imagine trying to play necrophages without resettlement.

    Jealous Deva on
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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    Well an AI civ decided to poke the bear and set up some outposts next to a fanatic xenophobe fallen empire.

    Whelllp, time to get the science vessels in position... just in case.

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    EvmaAlsarEvmaAlsar Birmingham, EnglandRegistered User regular
    Donnicton wrote: »
    Well an AI civ decided to poke the bear and set up some outposts next to a fanatic xenophobe fallen empire.

    Whelllp, time to get the science vessels in position... just in case.

    Ah, yes. The fun way to deal with AI civs whom insult you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEn53FYvEW0

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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    Just received a random message from some new brigand fleet saying they're now blockading an allied system until something-something quotas whatever.

    Except... the allied system they decided to blockade belonged to one of the three fallen empires.

    Moral of the story: piracy tends to naturally weed out the stupid.

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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    I think I may have run into a weird bug with that - the great khan spawned next to a spiritualist fallen empire and I think the only system it has to connect to the rest of the galaxy is a holy world system so it is avoiding it to avoid pissing off the FE - so now the khan and his fleet seem to be just chilling out in their original systems. They grabbed a couple of uninhabited systems with constructors but they refuse to move their fleet through that one system next to the fallen empire.

    I understand the reasoning behind not wanting the khan to piss off FEs but maybe there needs to be a check where if it is literally the only way to get anywhere they just risk it. Having the khan get swatted by the holy guardians is a more interesting outcome than having the khan sit around for 30 years and die in bed of a heart attack.

    Jealous Deva on
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    MillMill Registered User regular
    Alright off the top of my head, the issue sticking out in the game currently.

    -The Ancient Relic precursors. Like I get what they are trying to go for, but there are a number of setups that completely break these chains on the fun factor and just result in the game getting nuked. Also the Zroni one is a bit problematic IMO, since I believe the relic ties in entirely with psionics, so if you don't go down that right it's pretty useless, but then again, don't think I've ever gotten the chance to test it out because of the two, it's the one that breaks the most and seems rarer than Baol. The easy fix would be to glad the digsites so that one doesn't have to own the systems to excavate them. Maybe you have to pay money to the empire that does or this could be a good compromise area for people that want active espionage, but in a way that won't be ass. If you get either one and one or more digsites end up in another empires turf, you could use espionage to essentially complete the digsite. It's a good compromise because it would be more active, but at the same time, thanks to the anti-theft flags, you aren't really fucking the empire over, since it was never going to access any digsites related to the precursors. Also under a certain threshold for habitable worlds, the two chains shouldn't even be eligible picks because lowest planet settings can break them.

    -The concept behind spiritualist is going to need some tweaks if they can't do anything about pops being everything. Currently, I'd say robot workers are pretty much mandatory. Spiritualist really hate the idea of robots. Either pops need to matter less, spiritualist needs a way to offset said pops or they need stop being so pissy about robots period. Another area where they really lag is on the research end and I know unity production was a huge counterweight to tech output at one point, but that really isn't the case. Also the ascension perk they really want is a crap shoot on consistency. I'm not entirely sure what would be a good fix here and I'm thinking the current fantasy of spiritualist empires hating the fuck out of robots is going to go to go if they can't grow another pop where robots would be built. That would probably be the first big help. Then they probably do need something to offset the tech hit. I will say that the whole materialist vs spiritualist as incompatible ethics is probably the weakest one and maybe they should be the only two competing ethics that aren't incompatible.

    -Democracies need a buff. Sadly, I think mandates are here to stay, so the fix I'd like to see here is to remove build X district. I fucking hate this because it forces the players to make bad decisions because their current leader gets in on the back of farmers and wants you to build more agriculture districts, but what you need is more housing or mining or generator districts because you have an abundance of food or the planet that has room for an agricultural district is really not fit for one because farmers eat a malus. Yes, I'm aware it does check for if you have districts but it still tries to make the players make garbage decisions, not tough decisions. A tough decision would be build more research stations, but you've been sitting on getting two 2 physics stations up because your empire desperately needs more energy and minerals, you do want to build those eventually because you own the systems and it isn't a bad idea. Granted in hindsight habitats shit on that as well, but you could have having a habitat build there count. Now I admit they would need to find some new ones and I think they could. Possible examples are have a deal going with an enclave for X years or push a certain resolution in the galactic senate. IMO I think they would have been a great choice for being allowed to have more than one edict going. On the edict front I do think one thing they might be able to play with, is for up to a year after electing a new leader, depending on the leader certain edicts will be cheaper to end, while others are cheaper to enact. Give them flexibility to adjust edicts based on who wins. I'd nuke shadow councils because it's more of a trap and instead of democracy dumping influence trying to get a leader, you just let it do it's thing. Finally, they need a weaker counterpart to agendas, mandates don't really cut it because unity has lost value and you do hit a point where unity isn't do much for you. IMO given them something called initiatives where they get a very small boost. If you elect someone that is big on science you could get the following initiatives: research initiative 2% to all research. society studies 5% to society research. Physic research 5% to physic research. This would keep agendas as being strong and unique for empires that have them, but would help democracies out and offset taking away the players control on who gets elected because IMO more often than not that's a trap, unless your really late game and have a very awesome leader, you almost always have better options for that influence.

    -Egalitarian ethic could use a boost. IMO an interest approach might be that empires with the ethic will get at least one faction in half the time it takes for everyone else to get faction. The second faction and onward won't show up until everyone else starts getting factions. This let's authoritarians bank some bonus influence before egalitarians start get some extra influence. I'd also sit there and make it so that as an egalitarian you want multiple faction, each faction multiplies the influence you get up to a certain point. So that they either equal or slightly exceed what authoritarians get in total production. I'd also set it up so that any none xenophobe or authoritarian factions they have will heavily approve the government if it's a democracy.

    -Leader traits. I could write huge post on this. I'll just state there are a few that need to go because they are either bad design or just won't ever be viable enough to justify having. Arrested development is prime example of bad design, you don't really do anything except fire the leader that gets its unless they somehow get it at like level 10. Explorer is a good example of not really viable because you'll eventually hit a point where you don't need to craft lots of science ships and you'll run out of anomalies and that point the trait is a waste of space. I think they largely gave monarchies and dictatorships 2 edict capacity because of what a crap shoot beginner leader traits can be and IMO the latter one probably should have it because I think in order to do a dictatorship need authoritarian ethics, which means you have information quarantine, which is really good for the stability and preventing ethics drift. Also not hard to figure out when you need to save up influence to pick their replacement, monarchies, yeah, you get whatever replacement they give you, so I can get behind given them that extra edict to make up for it. All that said, I think maybe the devs should score leader traits after a pruning and set up a code where the game needs the two traits pick to equal a certain and they could set this higher for dictatorships and monarchies and maybe lower for democracies which will churn through leaders quickly. Having traits scored and a required score, would mean that you'd get a consistency of leaders at the start that are geared towards being decent where it's not possible to reroll to get rid of a shit leader or attempt to land a phenomenal leader because it's not possible to get those. I mean if someone wants the challenge of garbage leaders, they could make an idiotocracy origin as a hard mode choice and do a really good job with narrative events to make it entertaining and fun.

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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    The materialist vs spiritualist thing sort of makes sense, but then you run into concepts like the adeptus mechanicus...

    The spiritualists do give up a lot for not getting much. I feel like in a lot of ways robots are just op in general though. I don’t know how to fix them, maybe increase assembly time or cost? I know by mid game I am literally overflowing with robots and having them be synths and essentially just as good as organic pops at things organics are good at pretty much eliminates any drawback.

    I think the big thing is just having all that extra growth, maybe putting extra pop growth on temples and the like would help? Or looking at the growth buildings - right now an assembly plant just gives vastly more benefit than a pop growth building.

    Either way this is an issue for spiritualist but also for anyone that doesn’t want to lean heavily into bots, there needs to be a drawback or alternative path.

    Edit: one suggestion I saw that I really like was changing gene clinics so rather than having a pop growth bonus they unlock “assembling” organic pops via cloning in the same way robot factories do mechanical pops. Cloning vats could then boost this rather than natural growth.

    I feel like robots are good enough in other areas that even if they didn’t have their own independent pop growth they would still be worth building.

    Jealous Deva on
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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    New Dev Dairy, detailing additional automation changes and a major reworking of the resettlement systems.

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