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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Yesterday, The Troubles Seemed So Far Away

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Posts

  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    zepherin wrote: »
    Aldo wrote: »
    Aldo wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    Vaccines in the UK are rolled out based on need. They go to the groups who are more at risk. As they should be. But that's not necessarily to say that people who get vaccinated deserve to be able to wander around and do more.

    Basically it is shit that we would end up with 21 year olds who can't go to the pub but their parents can because they haven't been offered a vaccination yet and might not be for months.

    That is clearly and markedly very unfair. We shouldn't have a system by which being vaccinated gives you more social freedoms. We all get vaccinated and we slowly roll out the social freedoms for everyone at the same time.

    We're in the middle of a debate on vaccine passports here in Norway right now, too.

    The argument for allowing the vaccinated to go out and do stuff is that that allows businesses to keep open and reduces economic impact of covid.

    The argument against is that it is unfair on the unvaccinated.

    (An opinion piece in today's newspaper argued that it's good that it's unfair, because for once it's in the old and sick's favour rather than the young and healthy, as (is argued) is usually tha case.)

    It wouldn't be as much of a problem if everyone is quickly being vaccinated, but for every day there's a group of haves going out to the pub and a group of have-nots being told to stay indoors the situation becomes more and more unfair. The focus on age is also frustrating: a lot of 30 and unders work in the service industry, at the supermarkets, as delivery guys etc etc, yet they are last in line to receive their jab. There is also a lot of finger pointing (in The Netherlands at least) of "kids going out to house parties" and that they are the sole reason why we have a curfew. It's easy to see one house party and say that all young adults are that irresponsible, but that's unfair.

    So to me it would make more sense to open up the place in a way that is fair to <30 people as we as everyone else. Here they are also experimenting with concerts and festivals where you need to do a test before going and take another one a few days after. Obviously this can't be done for the local pub or restaurant, but the government should think further ahead than just passports and never mind the unfairness of it all.

    One argument in favour of vaccine passports is that, if you attach tangible benefits to being vaccinated / tangible inconveniences to not being vaccinated, more people are likely to take it.

    If being a "vaccine sceptic" means you can't go to the movies or the pub, there'd be a lot fewer of them.

    Fair, but how many people does this entail? And how many would be swayed by being disbarred from the pub and movie theater? I think a lot more decent research is needed and instead politicians like to go for the "everyone knows this" or "we gotta do SOMETHING" line of reasoning. It's all so unscientific, I guess.

    and again: if everyone would be quickly vaccinated it wouldn't be so bad.
    People hate being not allowed to do something. To a spectacular extent. One of Colorado’s most effective means of collecting child support was suspending people’s hunting&fishing license until they paid up fully. It increased compliance by about 5%.

    I would be ok for a similar increase in vaccine compliance.

    As awesome as that solution is, you have no idea whether that works for a different outcome, in a different setting, a different country, with different people. I'd also be OK with similar things in my neck of the wood, just like I wish daycare facilities could deny access to children of anti-vaxxers, but more research is needed. How do you actually motivate folks in London vs folks Lincoln? Are they motivated by the same incentives?

    One solution would be to be extra draconian, just turn off their facilities until they get their jab. Human rights be damned. I'm sure you could put that to the vote and come out with more than 52% voting in favor.

    zepherin
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    What's going on in Northern Ireland? Seeing mentions of six days of unrest and a bus on fire? But it's not news that's showing up on main news sources out in the colonies?

    Anyone closer to the source able to provide more information?

    QuidMartini_Philosopher
  • Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
    edited April 10
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    It’s getting a bit more coverage now but, basically, Unionist terrorists (in the form of disposable, masked-up teenagers) are committing acts of violence against police and property ostensibly in protest at how Brexit’s been handled and, more specifically, the lack of charges against the 2,000 Sinn Fein members and politicians who turned up to a funeral during lockdown.

    However, suspicion is that the Loyalist paramilitaries (who make their money running drugs) are actually upset at the border controls now in place at the NI border, due to Brexit, and are egging on bored kids to stir some unrest. Paramilitaries on both sides are happy to make use of children, as the killing of Lyra McKee showed.

    Apologies if any of the above is incorrect/misleading - happy to amend if anyone has any issues.

    Red or Alive on
    LordSolarMacharius
  • SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    Shitty
    It's also telling that Arlene Foster is happy to meet and speak to the heads of unionist paramilitary groups but refuses to speak to the head of the PSNI and is in fact calling for his resignation.

    DUP gonna DUP.

    Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
    SolarRed or AliveJazz
  • Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
    edited April 8
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Foster is, in the same tweet, condemning acts of violence by Unionists and calling Sinn Fein the “real law breakers”.

    So, y’know, she’s really sowing the seeds of peace.

    Red or Alive on
    SchadenfreudeLordSolarMachariustynic
  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Unionist being the Pro-UK side?
    Loyalist being the "kick out the Brits" side?

    Sorry I'm trying to remember which way it goes.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Unionist being the Pro-UK side?
    Loyalist being the "kick out the Brits" side?

    Sorry I'm trying to remember which way it goes.

    I honestly thought it was the other way around.

  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    There are some spectacularly weird takes flying about on social media about NI from the American right at the moment

    My personal favourites are: unionist rioters are "antifa"; and Sinn Fein are Catholic and therefore right wing

    ElldrenAldoGnome-InterruptusTicaldfjamMartini_PhilosopherJazzmonikerRhesus PositiveEinzelZilla360RingotynicArdol
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Shitty
    This isn't helping either:
    Speaking to CNN, Democratic Unionist Party MP Sammy Wilson called for Johnson to "tear up the agreement which breaks up the United Kingdom, tear up the agreement which breaks up all the promises you made to the people of Northern Ireland."
    Brexit related relativistic effects mean that even though the referendum happened in 2016, we've all been talking about the incompatibility between a 'meaningful' Brexit, a 'united' UK, and the GFA for a couple centuries now.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Unionist/Loyalist being pro membership of the United Kingdom, Republican being pro unification with Ireland and leaving the UK

    SchadenfreudeElldrenGnome-InterruptusMartini_PhilosophermonikerStyrofoam SammichLordSolarMachariustynic
  • SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    Shitty
    Loyalist and Unionist both refer to the pro-UK groups.

    Your pro-Irish crowd are the Nationalists and Republicans.

    Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
    ElldrenMartini_PhilosopherLordSolarMachariustynic
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Loyalist means Loyal to the Crown. Hardline Unionists. The Spectrum goes Republican - Nationalist - Dirty Filthy Neutral - Unionist - Loyalist

    The sad thing is there is a simple solution to the border problem: Boris joins the single market. So there isn't a simple solution to the border problem. Many people really didn't grok (or care) how the EU threaded the needle of having mutually exclusive political desires here.

    SchadenfreudeJazzmonikerRhesus PositiveLordSolarMachariusInfidel
  • Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Both Loyalist and Unionist are used interchangably in my post (both describing the pro-UK, generally protestant and extremely conservative side).

    Not sure if there is much of a distinction these days but “Loyalist” is sometimes used to signify paramilitary or paramilitary-leaning figures.

    Sorry for the confusion.

    SchadenfreudeSolarJazz
  • Dis'Dis' Registered User regular
    edited April 8
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Unionist being the Pro-UK side?
    Loyalist being the "kick out the Brits" side?

    Sorry I'm trying to remember which way it goes.

    Same thing, the anti-UK side is the Nationalists.

    Don't forget Unionist meaning something different again in Scotland.

    Yes we do make it deliberately difficult, why do you ask?

    Dis' on
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Unionist being the Pro-UK side?
    Loyalist being the "kick out the Brits" side?

    Sorry I'm trying to remember which way it goes.

    I honestly thought it was the other way around.

    Unionists are definitely pro-uk.

    I'm also pretty confident that Red used "loyalist" as a synonym for unionist in their post.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    SchadenfreudeRed or Alive
  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    So awesome
    the DUP are the Democratic Unionist Party
    The tories are the Conservative and Unionist Party.
    The Union here refers to the Union of the United Kingdom, established by the Acts of union in 1707 (for scotland) and 1800 (for Ireland)

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    Elldren
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Dis' wrote: »
    Unionist being the Pro-UK side?
    Loyalist being the "kick out the Brits" side?

    Sorry I'm trying to remember which way it goes.

    Same thing, the anti-UK side is the Nationalists.

    Don't forget Unionist meaning something different again in Scotland.

    Yes we do make it deliberately difficult, why do you ask?

    It does? I thought in both countries it meant continued support for the Union. Just that Scotland's Union began in 1707 rather than 1801.

    LordSolarMacharius
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    There are some spectacularly weird takes flying about on social media about NI from the American right at the moment

    My personal favourites are: unionist rioters are "antifa"; and Sinn Fein are Catholic and therefore right wing

    Reminds me of a Spitting Image sketch where Ian Paisley was looking for dirt on Bill Clinton, but was persuaded to stop because if he succeeded the Republicans would win.

    Kayne Red RobeJazzElldren
  • Dis'Dis' Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Dis' wrote: »
    Unionist being the Pro-UK side?
    Loyalist being the "kick out the Brits" side?

    Sorry I'm trying to remember which way it goes.

    Same thing, the anti-UK side is the Nationalists.

    Don't forget Unionist meaning something different again in Scotland.

    Yes we do make it deliberately difficult, why do you ask?

    It does? I thought in both countries it meant continued support for the Union. Just that Scotland's Union began in 1707 rather than 1801.

    Unionist is very different slice of the demographics and political parties in Scotland, it's not very useful to conflate them.

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    edited April 8
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    I'll add to the confusion by insisting that there (at least ought to be) a difference between 'pro-uk' and 'unionist'. The term unionist tends to include elements of hard right protestant idealogy as part of the package (e.g. supporting the orange order and band parades, anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion etc). Unionism is a textbook example of identity politics/culture wars and how they can be used to push regressive policy really.
    Edit: Just to add that this is in the NI context, rather than Scotland.

    altid on
    JazzLordSolarMacharius
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    altid wrote: »
    I'll add to the confusion by insisting that there (at least ought to be) a difference between 'pro-uk' and 'unionist'. The term unionist tends to include elements of hard right protestant idealogy as part of the package (e.g. supporting the orange order and band parades, anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion etc). Unionism is a textbook example of identity politics/culture wars and how they can be used to push regressive policy really.
    Edit: Just to add that this is in the NI context, rather than Scotland.

    Serious question, how possible is it to separate the two in the NI context? It seems like there are no real moderate pro-UK options advocating for the union in terms of like economics or other tangible benefits. It seems to be culture war all the way down.

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Shitty
    Casual wrote: »
    altid wrote: »
    I'll add to the confusion by insisting that there (at least ought to be) a difference between 'pro-uk' and 'unionist'. The term unionist tends to include elements of hard right protestant idealogy as part of the package (e.g. supporting the orange order and band parades, anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion etc). Unionism is a textbook example of identity politics/culture wars and how they can be used to push regressive policy really.
    Edit: Just to add that this is in the NI context, rather than Scotland.

    Serious question, how possible is it to separate the two in the NI context? It seems like there are no real moderate pro-UK options advocating for the union in terms of like economics or other tangible benefits. It seems to be culture war all the way down.

    I'm not sure you can these days. Per-capita GDP was 78,661 for Ireland and 42,330 for the UK in 2019 (current USD values). Being in the EU kinda sorta meant you didn't have to worry about that though. You're in the EU, you can go to the RoI, move to France, stay in NI, whatever. Now that they've been pulled over the Brexit cliff and out of the EU, the only reasons to not want to reunite with the RoI (or at least break from the UK and rejoin the EU) are cultural ones. Same for the other nations. As long as the UK was in the EU, Wales or whoever could use the size of the UK to amplify their concerns in the EU. Now that the UK is out of the EU they're going to find out just how little their concerns matter compared to those of England.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    edited April 8
    Ireland's gdp is deceptively high though. Going by that it would be the EU's most prosperous country by a large margin. In reality that's mainly due to a bunch of large multinationals and shelf companies using the low corporate tax there.
    http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.ft.com%2Fftdata%2Ffiles%2F2015%2F05%2FG109X-Datawatch-Wed.png?fit=scale-down&source=next&width=301
    https://www.ft.com/content/6c7a0c9a-1913-30a2-a317-24d2623e1865

    honovere on
    Gnome-Interruptus
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    Casual wrote: »
    altid wrote: »
    I'll add to the confusion by insisting that there (at least ought to be) a difference between 'pro-uk' and 'unionist'. The term unionist tends to include elements of hard right protestant idealogy as part of the package (e.g. supporting the orange order and band parades, anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion etc). Unionism is a textbook example of identity politics/culture wars and how they can be used to push regressive policy really.
    Edit: Just to add that this is in the NI context, rather than Scotland.

    Serious question, how possible is it to separate the two in the NI context? It seems like there are no real moderate pro-UK options advocating for the union in terms of like economics or other tangible benefits. It seems to be culture war all the way down.

    It depends on how you view the Alliance Party really. Officially they're neutral on the whole affair, but you could argue that maintaining the status quo is a very soft pro-uk position - or at least could, before brexit landed. At the very least it was an option for pro-uk but not right wing voters. In recent years they've picked up a significant amount of that moderate vote from former UUP voters, to the point where they'll almost certainly be the larger party at the next elections. Meanwhile, the unionists are at pains to paint the Alliance Party as "in league with Sinn Fein" to try and stop votes leaking this way. One botched attempt at this led to the 'flag protest' riots a few years back.

    In terms of openly advocating for the union though, you're right. There are no options. They don't even really try to make rational arguments either, just culture wars bullshit. The options are:
    UUP - The 'moderate' unionist party. Will act like they can be reasonable, then do whatever the DUP tell them to.
    DUP - Need no introduction really. Hard right, religious bigots.
    TUV - DUP not bigoted enough for you? Enter the TUV. Founded by (and consists almost entirely of) a man who left the DUP because they weren't as hardline as he wanted.

  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    The Per-capita GDP comparison is kind of suspect as Ireland is a huge tax haven for overseas corporations wanting to do business in the EU. The real Per Capita is lower. Ireland was also hit hard by the 08 financial crash.

    The joke is that the first thing every successful Irishman does once they have made it is the get the fuck out of Ireland.

    Communicating from the last of the Babylon Stations.
    Gnome-InterruptuszepherinCommander Zoom
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Part of Unionism's longterm problem is they went full hog on other conservative bugbears. Like the UK but also like Gay Marriage and not having uncritical creationist propaganda at the Giant's Causeway? Your voting options are limited.

    altidmonikerElldren
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Part of Unionism's longterm problem is they went full hog on other conservative bugbears. Like the UK but also like Gay Marriage and not having uncritical creationist propaganda at the Giant's Causeway? Your voting options are limited.

    That's what I was getting at really. In Scotland the biggest unionist voice is obviously the Tories, everyone except the SNP and the Greens (I'm not considering Alba a real political party at this point) are technically unionists but are also wasted votes. If you're a Scottish unionist and don't like the conservatives you're kind of shit out of luck. You have to decide if unionism really matters more to you than pretty much everything else or abstain.

    i write amazing erotic fiction

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    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
  • Redcoat-13Redcoat-13 Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    The Per-capita GDP comparison is kind of suspect as Ireland is a huge tax haven for overseas corporations wanting to do business in the EU. The real Per Capita is lower. Ireland was also hit hard by the 08 financial crash.

    The joke is that the first thing every successful Irishman does once they have made it is the get the fuck out of Ireland.

    I remember going on holiday to Dublin just before that crash; there was an amazing amount of building work going on in the city. Even the city guide remarked on the amount of building work going on (she wasn't talking about it in a positive way).

    I also remember the massive hit lots took after that 08 crash; this was the property bubble bursting right? I remember a lot of talk about the "Celtic Tiger" but (I'm happy to be corrected) Ireland ended up being the first EU country to go in to a recession. I almost want to say the crash hit Ireland the hardest (worse than Greece?).

    PSN Fleety2009
  • SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    There's still ghost estates in Ireland that were being built when the crash happened that never got finished or if they were finished no one moved to.

    Visiting my wife's family in rural County Wexford there's half finished houses all over the place. Though on the other hand, it's weird seeing people the same age as my wife (29) with huge houses on massive plots of land because they could weather the storm.

    Kayne Red Robe
  • AntinumericAntinumeric Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    SharpyVII wrote: »
    There's still ghost estates in Ireland that were being built when the crash happened that never got finished or if they were finished no one moved to.

    Visiting my wife's family in rural County Wexford there's half finished houses all over the place. Though on the other hand, it's weird seeing people the same age as my wife (29) with huge houses on massive plots of land because they could weather the storm.

    How does this square with the massive shortage of housing in Ireland currently? What happened?

    In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.
  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    SharpyVII wrote: »
    There's still ghost estates in Ireland that were being built when the crash happened that never got finished or if they were finished no one moved to.

    Visiting my wife's family in rural County Wexford there's half finished houses all over the place. Though on the other hand, it's weird seeing people the same age as my wife (29) with huge houses on massive plots of land because they could weather the storm.

    How does this square with the massive shortage of housing in Ireland currently? What happened?

    Is there a shortage of housing, or a shortage of affordable housing?

    Lord_Asmodeus.gifLord_Asmodeus2.gifz1i30sg.png
    Commander Zoomzepherin
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    edited April 8
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    Shortage of housing in desirable locations?

    EDIT

    Dutch govt is not going to use AstraZeneca on people under 60 https://nos.nl/artikel/2375923-kabinet-geen-astrazeneca-vaccin-meer-voor-60-minners.html This is after advice from the Gezondheidsraad, the leading advisory council to the Dutch government.

    I'm looking forward to getting my jab sometime in 2023. :bigfrown:

    Aldo on
    zepherinGnome-Interruptus
  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    So awesome
    SharpyVII wrote: »
    There's still ghost estates in Ireland that were being built when the crash happened that never got finished or if they were finished no one moved to.

    Visiting my wife's family in rural County Wexford there's half finished houses all over the place. Though on the other hand, it's weird seeing people the same age as my wife (29) with huge houses on massive plots of land because they could weather the storm.

    How does this square with the massive shortage of housing in Ireland currently? What happened?

    there's a lot of factors.

    One, the housing shortage is really centered around Dublin specifically, and there is extreme nimbyism from a lot of the parties involved in deciding what gets built and what doesn't.

    The transport infrastructure around Dublin is really not where it needs to be. It is hugely difficult to commute in on a day to day basis from any decent distance.

    The cost of housing, especially renting, in the city centre is massively inflated by the influx of well paid workers for the multinational corporations that have chosen to base their EU operations there, and this will only get more prevalent in the coming years as London becomes less attractive. Your average Dublin flat's rental price is based on what a google employee can pay, not anybody else.

    A large amount of the housing built during the tiger is, for want of a better word, shite. It was thrown up very quickly and shoddily, and now even a scant 15 years later is really not fit to live in.

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    SharpyVII
  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Thanks y'all for helping my tired brain clear up the glossary.

    I think I got confused when Red used them interchangeably and it was almost midnight.

  • AnsagoAnsago Formerly QuarterMaster Registered User regular
    Thanks y'all for helping my tired brain clear up the glossary.

    I think I got confused when Red used them interchangeably and it was almost midnight.

    If you're interested in learning more about it I'd highly recommend the book Say Nothing. It's about as even-handed as you can get when looking at that period in Ireland and is very informative for laypeople like me who knew very little about it.

    lonelyahavaFryLord_AsmodeustinwhiskersRingoMorganV
  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Ansago wrote: »
    Thanks y'all for helping my tired brain clear up the glossary.

    I think I got confused when Red used them interchangeably and it was almost midnight.

    If you're interested in learning more about it I'd highly recommend the book Say Nothing. It's about as even-handed as you can get when looking at that period in Ireland and is very informative for laypeople like me who knew very little about it.

    it's like you read my draft post. lol Cheers for that!

    AnsagoGnome-Interruptus
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    edited April 8
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    japan wrote: »

    Works better in the hot new meme format that just dropped



    The tweet is a cat being shocked over that front page. Tweeter is Scot Political bod and owner of the cat.

    Alistair Hutton on
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  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited April 8
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    Don't worry, they fixed it!

    Tastyfish on
    TicaldfjamzepherinMartini_PhilosopherRingo
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I'm shocked someone would be ignorant of the relevance of the Twelfth.

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