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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Yesterday, The Troubles Seemed So Far Away

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Posts

  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Being not bad is obviously a step-up from being bad, but it leaves you at nothing. Nothing doesn't win elections. I can only speak for myself but so far the things about Starmers leadership that have landed on my consciousness one year in are throwing trans people under the bus via inaction and tedious flag worship. If he's done more than that he's failed to communicate it to a person who is arguably more politically engaged than the vast majority of the electorate. I say all this as someone who was pleased when he won the leadership race and still hopes he can turn it around, I'm rooting for him to succeed, but the more time passes the more doubts I have he can do it.

  • PerduraboPerdurabo Registered User regular
    He's chasing Tory/Labour swing voters, though

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Thirith wrote: »
    It's definitely not just that Starmer is hated by the staunch Corbynites. I get the impression that quite a few people who were happy to give Starmer a chance are not feeling it. While it's relatively clear what he doesn't stand for - a Corbyn-style Labour - what is it he actually does stand for?

    Policy wise probably about the same as Corbyn, who was about the same as Milliband

    Corbyn didn't stand for any policies in particular (I can name some of them but he didn't really have keystone policies, maybe nationalisation of rail). He stood for a brand of politics.

    Bethryn
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    And I would say that I don't think his policies on anything outside brexit really lost him the election

    What lost him the election was being Jeremy Corbyn. And also the intrangible issue of Brexit in the Labour Party.

    CasualShadow DemonRingoElldren
  • PerduraboPerdurabo Registered User regular
    The alternate universe scenario where Corbyn won the election and is leading the vaccination drive, while his brother Piers is holding anti-vax protests, comparing the vaccine rollout to the holocaust, is pretty wild.

    BethrynCasualJazz101SnicketysnickSolarShadowenSporkAndrewElldrenGnome-Interruptus
  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Solar wrote: »
    And I would say that I don't think his policies on anything outside brexit really lost him the election

    What lost him the election was being Jeremy Corbyn. And also the intrangible issue of Brexit in the Labour Party.

    I would point to the nationalised broadband plan as a specific policy which, while not necessarily being the deciding factor in losing him the election, substantially harmed his chances. It's an admirable idea on paper but the way such a grand-sounding idea was thrown out relatively haphazardly seemed to put a lot of people off.

    CasualGnome-Interruptus
  • Werewolf2000adWerewolf2000ad Suckers, I know exactly what went wrong. Registered User regular
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    As has already been pointed out, there really is very little Starmer or any other Labour leader can do to counter the Tories until the pandemic is properly over and everyone remembers that the welfare state currently consists of two bags of shopping from Aldi and Marcus Rashfords phone number.

    steam_sig.png
    EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
    altidJazzRingoSolarCaptainBeyondCommander ZoomShadowenRed or AlivepezgenSporkAndrewLord_AsmodeusElldrenGnome-Interruptus
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    The Tories are probably going to do a little bit worse once the Vaccinations are finished and people start evaluating their lock-down policies with the benefit of hindsight, They have been allowed to divert criticism based on "there is a crisis going on and we are doing the best we can".

    Once the Tories can't hide behind the Pandemic and actually have to justify their cockups they will do a lot worse. The Eat out to Help out bullshit. The slow lockdown on the second wave. The repeated changing of the slogans.

    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    I honestly have no confidence whatsoever the electorate will hold the Tories accountable for that. If Labour did any of that shit it would earn them a decade in opposition. If the Lib Dems did it they'd go to prison. The Tories? People just expect it so they don't get mad about it.

    FencingsaxJazzTastyfishRingotynicRhesus PositiveBrovid HasselsmofUnluckyAntinumericSharpyVIILord_AsmodeusLeztaGvzbgulElldrenBurnageProhass
  • EuphoriacEuphoriac Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    The electorate will hold the Tories to account for the economic pain post-pandemic. Whilst people understand the virus itself wasn't Johnson's fault, their response will be. Just like the electorate forgot the fuckups of the early pandemic, they'll forget the vaccine rollout when the bad shit hits.

    The question is whether the tories think they can lie their way out of it in time to win an election, or realise they have to somehow actually improve people's lives. My bet's on the former, and I couldn't tell you whether it'd work or not.

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    Euphoriac wrote: »
    The electorate will hold the Tories to account for the economic pain post-pandemic. Whilst people understand the virus itself wasn't Johnson's fault, their response will be. Just like the electorate forgot the fuckups of the early pandemic, they'll forget the vaccine rollout when the bad shit hits.

    The question is whether the tories think they can lie their way out of it in time to win an election, or realise they have to somehow actually improve people's lives. My bet's on the former, and I couldn't tell you whether it'd work or not.

    The bad shit is Brexit though, which will claim the bad stuff that happened because of the in and out lockdowns and then be mitigated by the fact that there was a pandemic, so surely no one figured that into their Brexit plans.

    Commander ZoomRingoAldo
  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    So shitty
    If things suck blame the EU, then blame COVID19, then blame the EU again

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG
    Rhesus PositiveTicaldfjamCasualJazzZilla360Gnome-Interruptus
  • SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    With the media being heavily biased towards the Tories, Starmer just being not Corbyn isn't going to be enough.

    Ties in with what everyone else's said about the Tories just being given a clean slate everytime.

    I can't count the number of times I've heard people say "ImAgInE iF CoRbYN wAs In ChArGe".

    People seem to have been conditioned to believe that the Tories are the only option.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    SharpyVII wrote: »
    With the media being heavily biased towards the Tories, Starmer just being not Corbyn isn't going to be enough.

    Ties in with what everyone else's said about the Tories just being given a clean slate everytime.

    I can't count the number of times I've heard people say "ImAgInE iF CoRbYN wAs In ChArGe".

    People seem to have been conditioned to believe that the Tories are the only option.

    I can't disagree with this, honestly. However, Starmer is a step in he right direction Labour badly needed after Corbyn. Corbyn is going to be he boogeyman of the party due to his tremendous failures and any modern leader is going to compared to him since he's made everything much easier for the Tories' gaining power. You're right, Labour had an uphill battle anyway, the steep hill became Mount Everist and people know how bad Corbyn was when he lead, has why he's bought up if anyone dislikes Starmer because it could be much, much worse. The last thing Labour needs to do is forget Corbyn's mistakes.

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Shitty
    I suspect the Tories are going to skate on the COVID situation. Vaccinations are rolling and pubs are reopening. It's just way too easy for people to let the relief and alcohol wash over them and hookoodanode hte past year. Plus the rest of Europe is up to their neck in the virus still, so 'doing better than the EU' is going to shut down a lot of arguments I suspect.

    If they'll take a hit on anything, it'll be on the Brexit shambles. Year-over-year economic numbers are going to continue to come out and they're going to be ugly. "But COVID..." will hopefully stop working as an excuse maybe around June. Then they'll all in on blaming the EU for not treating the UK like they're still in the EU. They're already doing that, just that later in the year that'll be their only real option. From there it's just a question of how many Leave type voters can muster up enough introspection to realize that the Boris Brexit was not a great plan. It's too much to hope for that a large enough group of people will decide that Brexit itself was a bad idea, I'll settle for them deciding that Brexit cannot fail, it can only be failed (by Boris).

    The NI situation is a wildcard though. Even ignoring the human and economic suffering from the violence, I have no idea how it's going to impact things going forward.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    edited April 2021
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    I agree the economy could be a sticking point but Starmer hasn't made much noise about Brexit and has indicated he just doesn't want to talk about it going forward.

    I know he can't do much now because everything will be drowned out by the vaccine programme but doesn't bode well for the future that he just doesn't want to talk about the biggest shake up to the UK in decades.

    But the depressing this is that Starmer could have the best arguments/policies in the world but all Johnson needs to do is go on TV and say wibble and a huge portion of the electorate will go nuts for him.

    SharpyVII on
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Partly because the quick response of "well you voted for this deal" can't be rebutted with an equally pithy come back

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
    SharpyVIICasual
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Well there's also the problem that Boris Johnson is quite charismatic and likeable

    And Starmer sort of hasn't appeared to be, yet. Probably more likeable than Corbyn, who I think most people found deeply unlikeable (cold, angry, a bit austere etc) but not exactly engaging

    So far, anyway

    zepherin
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Shitty
    SharpyVII wrote: »
    I agree the economy could be a sticking point but Starmer hasn't made much noise about Brexit and has indicated he just doesn't want to talk about it going forward.

    I know he can't do much now because everything will be drowned out by the vaccine programme but doesn't bode well for the future that he just doesn't want to talk about the biggest shake up to the UK in decades.

    But the depressing this is that Starmer could have the best arguments/policies in the world but all Johnson needs to do is go on TV and say wibble and a huge portion of the electorate will go nuts for him.

    Bringing up the economic damage from Brexit now would likely be drowned out by the good news about the vaccines, bringing it up later will have people asking why he didn't bring it up earlier. I think Starmer has screwed the pooch on the whole Brexit thing, but the political and media environment really hurt him.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
    Gnome-Interruptus
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    The best time to press home about Brexit being terrible is when people are willing to hear about it, which is going to be never for a large segment of the voting population.

    Right now complaints about Brexit will probably fall on deaf ears with the public, outside of those being immediately shafted by it. Which is not to say he shouldn't do it anyway, because no one's minds are going to be changed by remaining silent, but if the majority of the population are happy to applaud Johnson on the back of 125,000 people dying, constant corruption and blatant lies, there's very little the leader of the opposition can do about it.

    Commander Zoom
  • PerduraboPerdurabo Registered User regular
    It also invites the question "oh so you want to rejoin"? which isn't a discussion Labour want to be a part of (yet).In 2024 when the election probably will be, the Tories will have been in power for 14 years. Labour need to spend the next couple of years developing a vision, not doing anything too damaging, and rebuilding trust. People generally like Labour policies in isolation, but they need to trust the people selling it to them. That activists aren't really enthused in the project at this point doesn't matter so much. Young natural labour supporters have nowhere to go. To win in the next election, Labour needs old, consistent voters to trust them again.

    Commander Zoom
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited April 2021
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Once again people have taken the slightest reduction in restrictions as a blank cheque that Corona is over. I can't help but look at pictures of thousands of people crammed together in beer gardens and cringe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56727568

    Last time we threw caution to the winds like this we were back in lockdown within two weeks. The stupidity here amazes me, we've had the moderate success we've had because of lockdown and the vaccines, but you know who hasn't been vaccinated? Practically everyone between the ages of 18 and 40. Who makes up 95% of the people in these pictures crowding pubs? You guessed it!

    Covid is just one step forward and two back, on average it takes us three or four months to get levels down but only a week or two to put ourselves back in crisis. The take away here is if you want a haircut go get it fast chances are we'll be back in lockdown by May.

    Casual on
    LeztaaltidJazzStarZapperAntinumericZilla360Gnome-Interruptus
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    Booked in with my hairdresser tomorrow after work.

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Shitty
    The Czech Republic was able to roll for most of the summer with outdoor dining and COVID cases were mostly flat for that time. However that was with the boring old COVID, not the new hotness variants out of SA, Brazil, and the UK.
    Good luck.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • manjimanji Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    vaccines now being offered for ages 45 and up:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56729897

    they should have made it 43 and up, just to troll me even harder.

    zepherin
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    edited April 2021
    Solar wrote: »
    Well there's also the problem that Boris Johnson is quite charismatic and likeable

    And Starmer sort of hasn't appeared to be, yet. Probably more likeable than Corbyn, who I think most people found deeply unlikeable (cold, angry, a bit austere etc) but not exactly engaging

    So far, anyway

    This is the part that boggles my brain. Same with Trump. Liking the general politics, or the clear supremacy vibes, whatever.

    But thinking either is leadership material? I'm sorry, I just don't get it. At all. Boris as a childrens entertainer, or even a talkshow/gameshow host? Maybe.

    But "that clown sans costume is who I want running this country" is just completely contrary to every instinct I have.

    Fucking loathed most conservative leaders over the past 30 years across AU/UK/US, but I could at least see some dignity and decorum that made you think they could lead.

    Boris and Trump being the ones that seem to have the greatest amount of support despite (if not explicitly for) their buffoonery, it just does my head in.

    MorganV on
    altidSharpyVIIFencingsaxJazzAntinumericLordSolarMachariusBurnageRingoGvzbgulZilla360Gnome-InterruptusArdol
  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    So awesome
    It's not about thinking he can lead,

    It's about thinking that he hold your values.

    Steam ||| SC2 - Jaziek.377 on EU & NA. ||| Twitch Stream
    SharpyVIIYamiB.zepherinGnome-Interruptus
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited April 2021
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    I think it is at least partially about thinking he can lead and a lot of people think Boris Johnson is Prime Minister material

    I think they're utterly wrong but they do think that

    Ultimately to win you have to 1) be credible, 2) be likeable and 3) make people feel like your values and future are safe with them

    Johnson has 1) (he's a Tory) 2) (he says things like "I'm booked in for the pub" when asked about getting a haircut on the 12th) and 3) lots of people have Johnson's personal independence, business is good, Britain is great, a bluff old fashioned kind of confidence is good, support the monarchy etc views

    Solar on
  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    So shitty
    jaziek wrote: »
    It's not about thinking he can lead,

    It's about thinking that he hold your values.

    The only value I think Boris truly holds is that Boris should be Prime Minister, and it's not one we have in common.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
    JazzMayabirdFencingsaxAntinumericShadowenaltidmonikerzepherinFryRingoCommander ZoomZilla360ElldrenArdol
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    Johnson's values are whatever he thinks will make him popular

    And annoyingly, it's worked

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
    MayabirdSnicketysnickFencingsaxJazzzepherinCommander ZoomZilla360
  • Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    Remember when he hid in a fridge

    JazzNorgothKayne Red RobeFryRingoCommander ZoomZilla360tynicElldren
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Shitty
    The main thing that comes to mind about Boris is the clip I saw on Last Week Tonight where there's a scrum of reporters outside his house for some scandal or other, and he rolls out in his bathrobe with a tray of tea. By the third or fourth time he's asked if if they'd 'like a cuppa', the lot of them stop asking about the scandal and decide that a cup of tea would be very nice, thank you very much. It's surreal.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
    Aldoautono-wally, erotibot300AntinumericJazzLordSolarMachariusKayne Red RobemonikerzepherinLord_AsmodeusZilla360tynicElldren
  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    daveNYC wrote: »
    The main thing that comes to mind about Boris is the clip I saw on Last Week Tonight where there's a scrum of reporters outside his house for some scandal or other, and he rolls out in his bathrobe with a tray of tea. By the third or fourth time he's asked if if they'd 'like a cuppa', the lot of them stop asking about the scandal and decide that a cup of tea would be very nice, thank you very much. It's surreal.

    I mean it's less mysterious when you take into account that the editors are largely on his side so that bit is the bit you see and not questioning resuming afterwards.

    autono-wally, erotibot300
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    [hollow screaming intensifies]
    I mean

    That is true

    And we have to unlock at some point

  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I mean

    That is true

    And we have to unlock at some point

    Eventually the lockdown does do more harm than good. It is bad for peoples health in some ways to be inside all the time. People are very depressed.

    I think the UK is vaguely on the right path with a slow opening with steps every 5 weeks, although, I might have smeared this latest one out a little bit. Perhaps have non alcohol related outside stuff first to give people a break and then alcohol related outside stuff in a few more weeks.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    rr0hilzwqrkl.jpg

    altidSnicketysnickRhesus PositiveElldrenMojo_JojoRedcoat-13AntinumericCasualGiantGeek2020zepherinAldoSporkAndrewJazzLordSolarMachariusErlecTicaldfjamFencingsaxFrySpace CoyoteLord_AsmodeusShadowenSlacker1913Commander ZoomtynicAegisNiryaCalicaDark Raven XZilla360
  • SanderJKSanderJK Crocodylus Pontifex Sinterklasicus Madrid, 3000 ADRegistered User regular
    By sheer incompetence of your neighbors, the UKs tail of the crisis, at least from an epidemical point of view, is looking pretty good.
    Willing to wait a relatively long time before reopening. Down over 90% from the last peak.

    Meanwhile over here in the Netherlands we are currently cresting our 4th wave (which we call our 3rd wave.....), and are discussing if we can open things again next week. or maybe the week after.
    It has completely destroyed public morale to weekly be told "we're nearly there!" "Oh no wait more"

    Steam: SanderJK Origin: SanderJK
    Aldo
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    The absolute worst shower of bastards imaginable
    I think, barring a new variant the current vaccines don't protect against, that with the most vulnerable segments of the population sorted the government will ride out the uptick in cases and hospitalisations that's going to happen now the lockdown is being eased as long as the death rate doesn't shoot up again.

    I saw some graphs of other EU countries over the weekend and infections in eg France are looking ominously steep.

    SolarJazzShadow DemonGnome-InterruptusSlacker1913Zilla360
This discussion has been closed.