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Frenchie vs pugs?

Warren ProbertWarren Probert Registered User new member
I am thinking of getting one of these dog breeds but cant figure out which one to get. I am looking for a affectionate friendly with everyone type of small dog. Any opinions On which would be better? For anyone who have had both of these dogs at 1 point can you describe how they were and which ones personality was better for your household and why? Any differences you noticed would also be appreciated.

Posts

  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    You should get neither of these. They are two of the worst breeds possible when it comes to genetics and breathing problems.

    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
    bowendispatch.oShadowfireDark Raven XFeralEvermournEncOrcaL Ron HowardDonovan PuppyfuckerDonnictonUsagiMulysaSemproniustinwhiskersLeztaRed RaevynIncenjucarMrVyngaardMagic Pink
  • furbatfurbat Registered User regular
    I have two pugs. They have the best personalities. Unlike most dogs, they are bred to be companion dogs and nothing else. They do this very well. They are friendly, playful, and expressive. They are fantastic with children.

    You will deal with two kinds of people that criticize you for owning pugs however. The first thinks that dogs should be bred for something other than companionship and say the dog is useless. Usually these are the type that have a larger dog for hunting or a pit bull to protect the family. The second thinks pugs suffer from health problems more so than any other pure bred dog. They don't. Yes their short muzzles cause them to overheat easier, but pugs are inside dogs. No, they don't struggle to breathe. No, their eyes don't pop out. As for actual health issues, they have a few, sure.

    Biggest downside is the double coat of fur. They shed constantly. If you have dark hard wood floors it will be very noticable.

  • furbatfurbat Registered User regular
    Also consider that both breeds are expensive. We just bought a puppy and they tend to run between 1500-3500. The more reputable the breeder the less likely they will have health issues. There could also be a wait. We even had a breeder want to come to our home and interview us before selling.

    You could just go buy any other puppy and not have those headaches. Depending on your financial situation, spending that much might be insane.

    Personally I consider a puppy that will be with my family between 10-16 years to be something worth putting that much money and effort into getting exactly what I want.

  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Most purebred dogs have health issues, which is why the consensus is avoid them. Pugs and frenchies especially promote shitty breeding practices and are of questionable ethics in if they should still exist as the breed they are today (compared to their original forms). I have less problem with French bulldogs overall, their genetics are less fucky, so if you are dead set on those two, get the frenchie.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    dispatch.oFiendishrabbitzepherinSiskaShadowfireFeralEvermournEncOrcaSkeithDonovan PuppyfuckerFuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudMulysaSemproniusLeztaIncenjucarMrVyngaard
  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    If you necessarily have to get a breed that looks like that I'd have to ask "Why not a boston terrier?"

    THey're still too shortnosed for my taste, but the breed overall is much healthier than both pugs and french bulldogs. Also. They generally fart less (unlike pugs and frenchies that are notorious for being gassy).

    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
    bowenFeral
  • furbatfurbat Registered User regular
    If you necessarily have to get a breed that looks like that I'd have to ask "Why not a boston terrier?"

    THey're still too shortnosed for my taste, but the breed overall is much healthier than both pugs and french bulldogs. Also. They generally fart less (unlike pugs and frenchies that are notorious for being gassy).

    How are you determining that the breed is overall much healthier? That sounds suspiciously like internet knowledge.

  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    furbat wrote: »
    If you necessarily have to get a breed that looks like that I'd have to ask "Why not a boston terrier?"

    THey're still too shortnosed for my taste, but the breed overall is much healthier than both pugs and french bulldogs. Also. They generally fart less (unlike pugs and frenchies that are notorious for being gassy).

    How are you determining that the breed is overall much healthier? That sounds suspiciously like internet knowledge.

    No one's going to dig up veterinarian journals to prove their point here. Both are brachycephalic breeds and will suffer from eyes/heart/back problems. Boston terriers appear to not suffer on the same scale due to being less in demand than pug and french bulldogs (thus less over and inbreeding). They're also a little bit larger so will suffer less digestive problems because their digestive system is a little bit longer as well (the gas issue).

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    Feral
  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    furbat wrote: »
    If you necessarily have to get a breed that looks like that I'd have to ask "Why not a boston terrier?"

    THey're still too shortnosed for my taste, but the breed overall is much healthier than both pugs and french bulldogs. Also. They generally fart less (unlike pugs and frenchies that are notorious for being gassy).

    How are you determining that the breed is overall much healthier? That sounds suspiciously like internet knowledge.

    1. I'm friends with vetrinarians and a lot of acquaintances are dog owners. It comes up.
    2. Lifespan statistics are readily available.
    3. Your average insurance company will take 30% more on average in monthly fees for a French bulldog than a Boston terrier. Even more if it's a non-castrated female.

    P.S: There is no strict relation between size and gassiness. But from speculation it's genetic. Many breeds that are descended from English bulldog stock tend to be sensitive and prone to low-intensity food allergies. Some breeds with a reputation for being farty aren't related at all though (like yorkshire terriers and goldens).

    Fiendishrabbit on
    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
    Feralbowen
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited November 2020
    bowen wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    If you necessarily have to get a breed that looks like that I'd have to ask "Why not a boston terrier?"

    THey're still too shortnosed for my taste, but the breed overall is much healthier than both pugs and french bulldogs. Also. They generally fart less (unlike pugs and frenchies that are notorious for being gassy).

    How are you determining that the breed is overall much healthier? That sounds suspiciously like internet knowledge.

    No one's going to dig up veterinarian journals to prove their point here. Both are brachycephalic breeds and will suffer from eyes/heart/back problems. Boston terriers appear to not suffer on the same scale due to being less in demand than pug and french bulldogs (thus less over and inbreeding). They're also a little bit larger so will suffer less digestive problems because their digestive system is a little bit longer as well (the gas issue).

    I will! Because I'm just that much of a nerd.
    Pugs recorded the second highest count of disorders resulting directly from selection for conformational traits among the top fifty Kennel Club-registered breeds [11] and predispositions to 25 disorders have been reported in Pugs, with ocular, respiratory and dermatological problems especially highlighted [7]. Even among brachycephalic breeds, Pugs appear particularly predisposed to brachycephalic obstructive airway syndrome (BOAS), upper respiratory tract disorders and corneal disorders [8, 12–14]. In recognition of these breed challenges, the UK Kennel Club has listed the Pug as a category 3 breed (the highest category) in its ‘Breed Watch’ system which aims to identify points of concern for individual breeds ‘where some dogs have visible conditions or exaggerations that can cause pain or discomfort’. Points of concern in Pugs highlighted for special attention by show judges include ‘difficulty breathing, excessive nasal folds, excessively prominent eyes, incomplete blink, sore eyes due to damage or poor eyelid conformation, signs of dermatitis in skin folds, significantly overweight, and unsound movement’ [4].
    O’Neill, D.G., Darwent, E.C., Church, D.B. et al. Demography and health of Pugs under primary veterinary care in England. Canine Genet Epidemiol 3, 5 (2016). https://doi.org/10.1186/s40575-016-0035-z
    One hundred owners of 61 Pugs and 39 French bulldogs participated in this study.
    ...
    Questionnaire responses revealed that in addition to the well-known respiratory signs, brachycephalic dogs experience severe exercise intolerance and prolonged recovery time after physical exercise (88%), significant heat sensitivity (more severe signs at temperatures above 19 °C; 50%) and a variety of sleep problems (56%). To our knowledge, this is the first study using a structured owner questionnaire specifically to investigate a broad range of problems caused by selective breeding for brachycephaly. In particular, decreased exercise tolerance, increased recovery time due to heat intolerance and the extent of sleep problems have either been underestimated in the past, or have severely worsened over recent generations of dogs. The extent and severity of clinical signs and their impact on quality of life greatly exceeded our expectations. This study emphasizes the major impact that selective breeding for extreme brachycephalic features has on animal welfare.
    ...
    Seventy percent of owners said that their dogs had choking fits, and 40% had choking fits at least once weekly. Additionally, 36% of dogs had collapsed because of dyspnoea at least once in their life. Our questionnaire revealed that 20% of dogs were apparently cyanotic at least once a year, with 7% showing cyanosis at least once a week.
    Roedler, F. S., Pohl, S., & Oechtering, G. U. (2013). How does severe brachycephaly affect dog’s lives? Results of a structured preoperative owner questionnaire. The Veterinary Journal, 198(3), 606–610. doi:10.1016/j.tvjl.2013.09.009
    The sampling frame included 170,812 dogs attending 96 primary-care veterinary clinics participating within the VetCompass Programme. Two hundred dogs were randomly selected from each of three extreme brachycephalic breed types (Bulldog, French Bulldog and Pug) and three common small-to medium sized breed types (moderate brachycephalic: Yorkshire Terrier and non-brachycephalic: Border Terrier and West Highland White Terrier). Information on all URT disorders recorded was extracted from individual patient records. Disorder prevalence was compared between groups using the chi-squared test or Fisher’s test, as appropriate. Risk factor analysis used multivariable logistic regression modelling.

    During the study, 83 (6.9 %) study dogs died. Extreme brachycephalic dogs (median longevity: 8.6 years, IQR: 2.4-10.8) were significantly younger at death than the moderate and non-brachycephalic group of dogs (median 12.7 years, IQR 11.1-15.0) (P < 0.001). A higher proportion of deaths in extreme brachycephalic breed types were associated with URT disorders (4/24 deaths, 16.7 %) compared with the moderate and non-brachycephalic group (0/59 deaths, 0.0 %) (P = 0.001).

    The prevalence of having at least one URT disorder in the extreme brachycephalic group was higher (22.0 %, 95 % confidence interval (CI): 18.0-26.0) than in the moderate and non-brachycephalic group (9.7 %, 95 % CI: 7.1-12.3, P < 0.001). The prevalence of URT disorders varied significantly by breed type: Bulldogs 19.5 %, French Bulldogs 20.0 %, Pugs 26.5 %, Border Terriers 9.0 %, West Highland White Terriers 7.0 % and Yorkshire Terriers 13.0 % (P < 0.001). After accounting for the effects of age, bodyweight, sex, neutering and insurance, extreme brachycephalic dogs had 3.5 times (95 % CI: 2.4-5.0, P < 0.001) the odds of at least one URT disorder compared with the moderate and non-brachycephalic group.
    O’Neill, D.G., Jackson, C., Guy, J.H. et al. Epidemiological associations between brachycephaly and upper respiratory tract disorders in dogs attending veterinary practices in England. Canine Genet Epidemiol 2, 10 (2015). https://doi.org/10.1186/s40575-015-0023-8


    jnmaf9k8qdjj.jpg
    Farrow, T., Keown, A., & Farnworth, M. (2014). An exploration of attitudes towards pedigree dogs and their disorders as expressed by a sample of companion animal veterinarians in New Zealand. New Zealand Veterinary Journal, 62(5), 267–273. doi:10.1080/00480169.2014.902340 


    4p9gu3tu2335.jpg
    Packer, R., Hendricks, A., & Burn, C. (2012). Do dog owners perceive the clinical signs related to conformational inherited disorders as “normal” for the breed? A potential constraint to improving canine welfare. Animal Welfare, 21(1), 81–93. doi:10.7120/096272812x13345905673809

    Also from Packer et al (2012). Pug and bulldog owners underestimate the severity of breathing problems in their own dogs:
    Despite reports of high frequency and severe clinical signs of BOAS, 58% (18/31) of the owners of BOAS-Affected dogs reported that their dog did not currently have, or have a history of, breathing problems. This even included 7/17 of the owners of formally affected dogs referred for this disorder, who reported no breathing problem despite the official diagnosis. This was yet more pronounced in the 14 affected dogs that were not referred for BOAS, of which only three owners perceived a breathing problem in their dog.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    IMO, @Fiendishrabbit has the right idea. One of my close friends (who used to work as a vet tech) got a Boston Terrier for the exact reason Fiendishrabbit described. She wanted a breed with some of those brachycephalic facial features, but one with fewer health problems. Her purebred Boston is healthy, happy, and rambunctious.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
    bowenSiskaRingo
  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Oh my god thank you for saving me the trouble Feral. I was about to start digging out textbooks.

    Pugs are great dogs but anyone trying to downplay their potential for serious health issues are... lets just go with incorrect.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    Feral wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    If you necessarily have to get a breed that looks like that I'd have to ask "Why not a boston terrier?"

    THey're still too shortnosed for my taste, but the breed overall is much healthier than both pugs and french bulldogs. Also. They generally fart less (unlike pugs and frenchies that are notorious for being gassy).

    How are you determining that the breed is overall much healthier? That sounds suspiciously like internet knowledge.

    No one's going to dig up veterinarian journals to prove their point here. Both are brachycephalic breeds and will suffer from eyes/heart/back problems. Boston terriers appear to not suffer on the same scale due to being less in demand than pug and french bulldogs (thus less over and inbreeding). They're also a little bit larger so will suffer less digestive problems because their digestive system is a little bit longer as well (the gas issue).

    I will! Because I'm just that much of a nerd.
    Pugs recorded the second highest count of disorders resulting directly from selection for conformational traits among the top fifty Kennel Club-registered breeds [11] and predispositions to 25 disorders have been reported in Pugs, with ocular, respiratory and dermatological problems especially highlighted [7]. Even among brachycephalic breeds, Pugs appear particularly predisposed to brachycephalic obstructive airway syndrome (BOAS), upper respiratory tract disorders and corneal disorders [8, 12–14]. In recognition of these breed challenges, the UK Kennel Club has listed the Pug as a category 3 breed (the highest category) in its ‘Breed Watch’ system which aims to identify points of concern for individual breeds ‘where some dogs have visible conditions or exaggerations that can cause pain or discomfort’. Points of concern in Pugs highlighted for special attention by show judges include ‘difficulty breathing, excessive nasal folds, excessively prominent eyes, incomplete blink, sore eyes due to damage or poor eyelid conformation, signs of dermatitis in skin folds, significantly overweight, and unsound movement’ [4].
    O’Neill, D.G., Darwent, E.C., Church, D.B. et al. Demography and health of Pugs under primary veterinary care in England. Canine Genet Epidemiol 3, 5 (2016). https://doi.org/10.1186/s40575-016-0035-z
    One hundred owners of 61 Pugs and 39 French bulldogs participated in this study.
    ...
    Questionnaire responses revealed that in addition to the well-known respiratory signs, brachycephalic dogs experience severe exercise intolerance and prolonged recovery time after physical exercise (88%), significant heat sensitivity (more severe signs at temperatures above 19 °C; 50%) and a variety of sleep problems (56%). To our knowledge, this is the first study using a structured owner questionnaire specifically to investigate a broad range of problems caused by selective breeding for brachycephaly. In particular, decreased exercise tolerance, increased recovery time due to heat intolerance and the extent of sleep problems have either been underestimated in the past, or have severely worsened over recent generations of dogs. The extent and severity of clinical signs and their impact on quality of life greatly exceeded our expectations. This study emphasizes the major impact that selective breeding for extreme brachycephalic features has on animal welfare.
    ...
    Seventy percent of owners said that their dogs had choking fits, and 40% had choking fits at least once weekly. Additionally, 36% of dogs had collapsed because of dyspnoea at least once in their life. Our questionnaire revealed that 20% of dogs were apparently cyanotic at least once a year, with 7% showing cyanosis at least once a week.
    Roedler, F. S., Pohl, S., & Oechtering, G. U. (2013). How does severe brachycephaly affect dog’s lives? Results of a structured preoperative owner questionnaire. The Veterinary Journal, 198(3), 606–610. doi:10.1016/j.tvjl.2013.09.009
    The sampling frame included 170,812 dogs attending 96 primary-care veterinary clinics participating within the VetCompass Programme. Two hundred dogs were randomly selected from each of three extreme brachycephalic breed types (Bulldog, French Bulldog and Pug) and three common small-to medium sized breed types (moderate brachycephalic: Yorkshire Terrier and non-brachycephalic: Border Terrier and West Highland White Terrier). Information on all URT disorders recorded was extracted from individual patient records. Disorder prevalence was compared between groups using the chi-squared test or Fisher’s test, as appropriate. Risk factor analysis used multivariable logistic regression modelling.

    During the study, 83 (6.9 %) study dogs died. Extreme brachycephalic dogs (median longevity: 8.6 years, IQR: 2.4-10.8) were significantly younger at death than the moderate and non-brachycephalic group of dogs (median 12.7 years, IQR 11.1-15.0) (P < 0.001). A higher proportion of deaths in extreme brachycephalic breed types were associated with URT disorders (4/24 deaths, 16.7 %) compared with the moderate and non-brachycephalic group (0/59 deaths, 0.0 %) (P = 0.001).

    The prevalence of having at least one URT disorder in the extreme brachycephalic group was higher (22.0 %, 95 % confidence interval (CI): 18.0-26.0) than in the moderate and non-brachycephalic group (9.7 %, 95 % CI: 7.1-12.3, P < 0.001). The prevalence of URT disorders varied significantly by breed type: Bulldogs 19.5 %, French Bulldogs 20.0 %, Pugs 26.5 %, Border Terriers 9.0 %, West Highland White Terriers 7.0 % and Yorkshire Terriers 13.0 % (P < 0.001). After accounting for the effects of age, bodyweight, sex, neutering and insurance, extreme brachycephalic dogs had 3.5 times (95 % CI: 2.4-5.0, P < 0.001) the odds of at least one URT disorder compared with the moderate and non-brachycephalic group.
    O’Neill, D.G., Jackson, C., Guy, J.H. et al. Epidemiological associations between brachycephaly and upper respiratory tract disorders in dogs attending veterinary practices in England. Canine Genet Epidemiol 2, 10 (2015). https://doi.org/10.1186/s40575-015-0023-8


    jnmaf9k8qdjj.jpg
    Farrow, T., Keown, A., & Farnworth, M. (2014). An exploration of attitudes towards pedigree dogs and their disorders as expressed by a sample of companion animal veterinarians in New Zealand. New Zealand Veterinary Journal, 62(5), 267–273. doi:10.1080/00480169.2014.902340 


    4p9gu3tu2335.jpg
    Packer, R., Hendricks, A., & Burn, C. (2012). Do dog owners perceive the clinical signs related to conformational inherited disorders as “normal” for the breed? A potential constraint to improving canine welfare. Animal Welfare, 21(1), 81–93. doi:10.7120/096272812x13345905673809

    Also from Packer et al (2012). Pug and bulldog owners underestimate the severity of breathing problems in their own dogs:
    Despite reports of high frequency and severe clinical signs of BOAS, 58% (18/31) of the owners of BOAS-Affected dogs reported that their dog did not currently have, or have a history of, breathing problems. This even included 7/17 of the owners of formally affected dogs referred for this disorder, who reported no breathing problem despite the official diagnosis. This was yet more pronounced in the 14 affected dogs that were not referred for BOAS, of which only three owners perceived a breathing problem in their dog.

    The statistics nerd interest of mine pops up for that table. Is the Boston actually healthier, or are there a bunch of 0 values for nations that don't have Boston Terriers bringing the average down? The Boston has moderately high values on that table everywhere that isn't a 0 outlier. Also I obviously like Bostons, but having owned them I anecdotally observed plenty of breathing and farting problems.

    Darkewolfe on
    What is this I don't even.
    Feral
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    I love you @Feral.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited November 2020
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    The statistics nerd interest of mine pops up for that table. Is the Boston actually healthier, or are there a bunch of 0 values for nations that don't have Boston Terriers bringing the average down? The Boston has moderately high values on that table everywhere that isn't a 0 outlier. Also I obviously like Bostons, but having owned them I anecdotally observed plenty of breathing and farting problems.

    @Darkewolfe Yep, that's a good point. You're right. In an ideal world, we could control for the size of the populations of the respective species, otherwise we can't be totally sure if Bostons are actually healthier. When I was doing my search, I was really focusing more on the health problems of pugs and French bulldogs (because that was the question in the OP). I wasn't focusing on the relative health of Boston Terriers (which I recognize was the point of contention between bowen and furbat).

    But to be honest, I don't think we have to get that rigorous. First off, we can see from some of those articles that veterinarians and kennel clubs consider pugs and bulldogs to be of particular concern among all dog breeds. The UK Kennel Club puts pugs and bulldogs in breed watch category 3, or highest risk of health problems. They put Bostons in category 2. Still problematic, but not as bad on average as pugs or bulldogs.

    In another journal search focused more on Bostons, I come across passages like this:
    . The conclusion of the study was that there was enough phenotypic variance to improve the BOAS problem for both French Bulldogs and English Bulldogs. For Boston Terriers the BOAS problem was not severe enough in
    this study to get a result and for the Pugs the phenotypic variance is too small.
    ...
    In studied Boston Terrier population two dogs had normal nostrils, 10 dogs had mild stenosis, three dogs had moderate stenosis, but none had severe stenosis. For the English Bulldog population there were 7 dogs with normal
    nostrils, six dogs with mild stenosis, two dogs with moderate stenosis and three dogs with severe stenosis. For the French Bulldog population there were five dogs with normal nostrils, 16 dogs with mild stenosis, 18 dogs with moderate stenosis and 13 dogs with severe stenosis. For the Pug population there were one dog with normal nostrils, 14 dogs with mild stenosis, 13 dogs with moderate stenosis and three dogs with severe stenosis
    Bertilsson, Ida. "Phenotypic variation for BOAS within four brachycephalic dog breeds." Degree Project in Animal Science, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences (2019).

    Or this study, which attempted to model predicted BOAS risk across different breeds (controlling for sample sizes). Bostons had higher risk than most of the breeds studied, but lower than pugs or bulldogs.

    nz2pw4knl5at.png
    Packer, Rowena MA, et al. "Impact of facial conformation on canine health: brachycephalic obstructive airway syndrome." PLoS One 10.10 (2015): e0137496.

    BOAS isn't the only problem here. All of these dogs also have high risk of eye diseases, because they've been bred to have large eyes. That can include glaucoma, difficulty blinking, eyelids that can't close all the way, and irritation or even injury from hairs or foreign objects rubbing against the eyeball. This study is kind of interesting because it showed a counterintuitive pattern. French Bulldogs had higher rates of ulcerative keratitis of the eye (Grade 1, abbreviated G1 in this table) than major ulcerative keratitis (G3). Pugs had higher rates of major UK than minor UK. Bostons were in the middle.

    q1aky8ozbire.jpg
    Iwashita, H, Wakaiki, S, Kazama, Y, Saito, A. Breed prevalence of canine ulcerative keratitis according to depth of corneal involvement. Vet Ophthalmol. (2020); 23: 849– 855. https://doi.org/10.1111/vop.12808

    So yeah I totally admit that none of this is an unassailable slam dunk for the generalization that Bostons tend to be healthier than pugs or bulldogs, but I think it's a safe bet.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
    DarkewolfebowenL Ron HowardElvenshae
  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    So yeah I totally admit that none of this is an unassailable slam dunk for the generalization that Bostons tend to be healthier than pugs or bulldogs, but I think it's a safe bet.

    Personally I've always found that when risk is concerned you're rarely going to beat the predictions of a respectable insurance company. Insurance company statistics is, according to the professor I had in statistics, the foulest of statistical alchemy. But it works.

    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
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  • Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    Just get a Cocker Spaniel, they're awesome. We had one named Buster when I was a kid, he was fantastic.

    L Ron Howard
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    I mean, we haven't done our proper "just rescue a mutt, they're healthier, don't feed into a bad industry, and might have better health" comment.

    YMMV of course.

    What is this I don't even.
    dispatch.oFuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudL Ron HowardFeralShadowfireRingoRhesus PositiveUsagiMulysaSemproniusRed RaevynIncenjucarceresBahamutZERO
  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    I mean, we haven't done our proper "just rescue a mutt, they're healthier, don't feed into a bad industry, and might have better health" comment.

    YMMV of course.

    I volunteer as tribute!

    Hit a local shelter or look up some rescues. I love my mutt. We got genetic testing done to find out what she is and it literally came back as mega mutt... She came spayed and cost like $50 for fees, registering, and microchipping. Best dog ever and everyone at the dog park thinks she is adorable.

    3ds FC: 0645 - 7166 - 9801
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  • wonderpugwonderpug Registered User regular
    If you haven't heard of it, there's also the "retro pug" that's like a pug but bred to have healthier physical features.

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  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    wonderpug wrote: »
    If you haven't heard of it, there's also the "retro pug" that's like a pug but bred to have healthier physical features.

    How do you know about....*looks at name* ofcourse you know.

    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
    RingoRhesus PositiveElvenshaeDonnictonwonderpugTofystedethH3KnucklesSkeithBouwsTFeral
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    those retropugs are cool as shit

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Makes me think of a pug in a top hat and monocle

    Steampug

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
    RingoElvenshaeBouwsT
  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    I'm going to go against the grain here with rescues. It's good of you to get rescues, but they often have mental health and training problems unless you can pick them up as puppies. By the time they're a year or two old it can be difficult to impossible to untrain some behaviors.

    I'm not a dog person, but if I was, I would not get an older dog as a rescue.

    YMMV.

    Puppies of course come with their own set of challenges. Hope you don't like sleeping for a few months!

  • Red RaevynRed Raevyn because I only take Bubble Baths Registered User regular
    edited November 2020
    Orca wrote: »
    I'm going to go against the grain here with rescues. It's good of you to get rescues, but they often have mental health and training problems unless you can pick them up as puppies. By the time they're a year or two old it can be difficult to impossible to untrain some behaviors.

    I'm not a dog person, but if I was, I would not get an older dog as a rescue.

    YMMV.

    Puppies of course come with their own set of challenges. Hope you don't like sleeping for a few months!
    Oh come on. You know who really has training problems? Dog owners - most of them are crap. Most dog problems (behavioral, not health) are because of something the people are doing. And one of the best aspects of dogs is that they don't get hung up on the past like we do. Broadly asserting that dogs over 2 are likely to be untrainable, so a shelter dog is a dud, is malarky. And you often hear it from the same ill-informed group that thinks yelling at and "showing dominance" is training.

    My wife has been regularly volunteering at the humane society for a few years now and they've turned around countless dogs surrendered by crappy owners for bad behavior. And I mean turned around like treated and trained the dog well and it became a well-behaved joy to be around, not just that they got it adopted.

    And I suspect you're using older to refer to ">2" here, but fwiw the actual older dogs at rescues are hidden gems. They're mellow, most are well-trained, and they're infinitely less headache than a puppy.

    Edit: Also, as my wife pointed out, besides being able to easily help dogs who may come in less than perfect, shelters aren't just places where dogs abandoned by bad owners end up. Very good dogs with very good owners get surrendered all the time because the owner died, had to move, lost their job and so on.

    Red Raevyn on
    BurtletoyPhoenix-DIncenjucarTychoCelchuuuCantidoIrukaFiendishrabbitBillyIdleceresSkeithI ZimbraSoggybiscuitSiskaFuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudInfidel
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    My great-aunt and uncle had two pugs and they were just the loveliest, snuffliest dogs. They probably fed them better than they ate themselves.

    My mom fostered dobermans for quite a while when I was a kid; we had a small but 2-story house, which probably made the number of these giant dogs we took in possible as they could be separated either temporarily or for the duration of their stay if needed. For a while most of her social contact was with other people fostering dobermans, so I saw a lot of rescue dogs and this is just my perspective.

    First, all rescue organizations are different, and rescues for different breeds are different, and you should do a ton of research on both the organization and (where possible) ask around about the person doing the fostering. If you have your heart set on a specific breed these places may be worth a look. They'll tend to take dogs they feel have the best shot at being adopted, and because they have been taken into someone's home you'll get a much more personal account of how they are with furniture, kids, other animals, how possessive they are of people and things, etc. Many do temperament testing before adopting out but ymmv on temperament-testing adult dogs. Those dropped off to rescue organizations will often have been brought in for reasons other than neglect, but you can find both. Just make sure the people who are part of or foster for the organization are scrupulous.

    We had all kinds come through: pure bred dogs, mutts that looked vaguely like dobermans, dogs of all ages, some that needed training, some that absolutely required a lot of human attention not to sink into depression and some that were very friendly but otherwise generally independent dogs. Some were incredibly sharp and some were among the dumbest dogs I have ever seen. Some had been badly neglected or found on the street but were still very sweet. There were a few whose owners had died and they were just the saddest to see; they were the ones who would sit by the door and wait. So many were really great dogs we got to see go to good homes.

    My mom ultimately got out of it after a couple years; it's exhausting especially for larger dogs, and she wasn't really happy with the way our local chapter was run. She'd often end up paying out of pocket for things the rescue was supposed to cover, and considering how much vet bills can run for an intake exam/treatments we didn't really have enough money for that to be sustainable for us. She didn't get much say in which dogs we were handed, how long we would have them in our house, who was allowed to adopt, or if the dog was to be put to sleep, and she definitely wasn't okay with 100% of the decisions that were made or how some of the dogs got shuffled around. But the person who ran the chapter was... oddly codependent, and my mom sometimes has a hard time saying no. There are a lot of chapters and organizations that are way better than that one though, and some that are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse. It can be a really great way to go if you are willing to put in the time and effort to do research, but you really need to do that.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    Red Raevyn wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    I'm going to go against the grain here with rescues. It's good of you to get rescues, but they often have mental health and training problems unless you can pick them up as puppies. By the time they're a year or two old it can be difficult to impossible to untrain some behaviors.

    I'm not a dog person, but if I was, I would not get an older dog as a rescue.

    YMMV.

    Puppies of course come with their own set of challenges. Hope you don't like sleeping for a few months!
    Oh come on. You know who really has training problems? Dog owners - most of them are crap. Most dog problems (behavioral, not health) are because of something the people are doing. And one of the best aspects of dogs is that they don't get hung up on the past like we do. Broadly asserting that dogs over 2 are likely to be untrainable, so a shelter dog is a dud, is malarky. And you often hear it from the same ill-informed group that thinks yelling at and "showing dominance" is training.

    My wife has been regularly volunteering at the humane society for a few years now and they've turned around countless dogs surrendered by crappy owners for bad behavior. And I mean turned around like treated and trained the dog well and it became a well-behaved joy to be around, not just that they got it adopted.

    And I suspect you're using older to refer to ">2" here, but fwiw the actual older dogs at rescues are hidden gems. They're mellow, most are well-trained, and they're infinitely less headache than a puppy.

    Edit: Also, as my wife pointed out, besides being able to easily help dogs who may come in less than perfect, shelters aren't just places where dogs abandoned by bad owners end up. Very good dogs with very good owners get surrendered all the time because the owner died, had to move, lost their job and so on.

    Okay. If you say so.

    I've seen two dogs with severe anxiety now that came from the pound. Great owners, train the heck out of them, spoil the heck out of them. One owner is a vet so she maybe knows what she's doing. Not sure when she got her dog. The other owners were a first time dog owner but seemed like they were doing well (you could leave your plate at nose level and he'd ignore the food on it! He didn't jump! He was quiet in the house!). This dog was ~1 year old when they got him and who knows what had been done to him before.

    Neither dog could be left alone for any significant period of time or they'd bark like crazy and wreck shit. Yes, both are crate trained, yes, both attempted to gradually lengthen the period of time they're in the crate--there's just some critical time beyond which the dogs seem to have decided they can't be alone anymore.

    That's two people I know with pound puppies that are otherwise mostly good dogs, but that have mental health issues that are seemingly incurable.

    Yes, usually it's the owners, but sometimes it's also the dog.

    I can point at a friend who has a one year old dog that's jumping, barking, and nosing at the table and say, yup, that's a bad dog owner, not a bad dog. That isn't the case for the above two.

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