As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

[US Foreign Policy] is still practicing drone diplomacy

1575860626365

Posts

  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Sometimes 'yeah I was conned and made a mistake and will try and do better' is the best you can hope for.

    And purity testing that anyone who ever was fooled and wronged as being tainted forever is pretty 'glass houses'.

    kimeFencingsaxSmrtnikGnome-InterruptusHappylilElfGennenalyse Rueben
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Actually, Id like more than "whoops that was a mistake" sometimes. Like some consequences.

    Apologising for bad decisions makes Democrats wiser, especially on issues like Iraq - we've seen how badly not doing so taints a political party further in the GOP. It's self destructive. Foreign policy needs to be changed, that's a step forward. Consequences like what?

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Sometimes 'yeah I was conned and made a mistake and will try and do better' is the best you can hope for.

    And purity testing that anyone who ever was fooled and wronged as being tainted forever is pretty 'glass houses'.

    Well I certainly havent helped lied anyone into any invasions. Ymmv

    Everyone involved with Iraq should stay quietly at home counting their interest checks and count themselves lucky. Instead a lot of them got promotions.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
    KaputaTyphoid MannyKraintShortyMagellButtersHappy Little Machine
  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited June 18
    They weren't conned, come on, that's a ridiculously naive take. Fox News viewers might have been conned. Senators knew damn well what they were doing.

    There are certain levels of crime past which "sorry" is insufficient. The Iraq War, arguably the greatest crime committed by any nation in the 21st century, is without a doubt one of those. The people involved in that, both the GWB administration and the Senators and Representatives of both parties who voted for it, should have been removed from power and never allowed near it again. I guess one can dismiss that as "purity testing," but "don't destroy entire countries for no reason" really isn't that high a standard of purity to be asking for.

    Kaputa on
    MeeqeStyrofoam SammichYamiB.KraintMosatitynicShortyElendilMagellThe Cow KingHappy Little Machine
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Sometimes 'yeah I was conned and made a mistake and will try and do better' is the best you can hope for.

    And purity testing that anyone who ever was fooled and wronged as being tainted forever is pretty 'glass houses'.

    Well I certainly havent helped lied anyone into any invasions. Ymmv

    Everyone involved with Iraq should stay quietly at home counting their interest checks and count themselves lucky. Instead a lot of them got promotions.

    And some of those same pundits who pushed the Iraq war are now ginning up "what if Chinese labs are responsible for COVID?"

    usnTyq4.jpg
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
    Styrofoam SammichDee KaeOrcaShortyMagellButtersThe Cow KingHappy Little Machine
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited June 18
    Actually, Id like more than "whoops that was a mistake" sometimes. Like some consequences.

    Apologising for bad decisions makes Democrats wiser, especially on issues like Iraq - we've seen how badly not doing so taints a political party further in the GOP. It's self destructive. Foreign policy needs to be changed, that's a step forward. Consequences like what?

    The violent death of half a million to a million people is not a learning experience, its a crime. Treating it as anything less devalues them.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
    DamnItCohaagenThe Cow King
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Unfortunately, the ruling class has not provided us with an effective means of punishing them without also putting ourselves at risk.

    Orca
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Sometimes 'yeah I was conned and made a mistake and will try and do better' is the best you can hope for.

    And purity testing that anyone who ever was fooled and wronged as being tainted forever is pretty 'glass houses'.

    Well I certainly havent helped lied anyone into any invasions. Ymmv

    Everyone involved with Iraq should stay quietly at home counting their interest checks and count themselves lucky. Instead a lot of them got promotions.

    And some of those same pundits who pushed the Iraq war are now ginning up "what if Chinese labs are responsible for COVID?"

    Yeah that is a completely different thing on so many levels the comparison is laughable.

    I will admit if my 42 year old ass is drafted to hold a position in the Spratleys three years from now I was wrong, but not all things are the same.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited June 19
    zagdrob wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Sometimes 'yeah I was conned and made a mistake and will try and do better' is the best you can hope for.

    And purity testing that anyone who ever was fooled and wronged as being tainted forever is pretty 'glass houses'.

    Well I certainly havent helped lied anyone into any invasions. Ymmv

    Everyone involved with Iraq should stay quietly at home counting their interest checks and count themselves lucky. Instead a lot of them got promotions.

    And some of those same pundits who pushed the Iraq war are now ginning up "what if Chinese labs are responsible for COVID?"

    Yeah that is a completely different thing on so many levels the comparison is laughable.

    I will admit if my 42 year old ass is drafted to hold a position in the Spratleys three years from now I was wrong, but not all things are the same.

    It shows the second half of your personally acceptable mea culpa isnt happening. If its laughable to you maybe that criteria wasnt very serious.

    Anyway, no one was held responsible. Lots of the same people got promotions and made a ton of bad choices in the next administration that cost a bunch of lives. It'll keep happening because there's no accountability.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
    YamiB.Shorty
  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    edited June 19
    zagdrob wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Sometimes 'yeah I was conned and made a mistake and will try and do better' is the best you can hope for.

    And purity testing that anyone who ever was fooled and wronged as being tainted forever is pretty 'glass houses'.

    Well I certainly havent helped lied anyone into any invasions. Ymmv

    Everyone involved with Iraq should stay quietly at home counting their interest checks and count themselves lucky. Instead a lot of them got promotions.

    And some of those same pundits who pushed the Iraq war are now ginning up "what if Chinese labs are responsible for COVID?"

    Yeah that is a completely different thing on so many levels the comparison is laughable.

    I will admit if my 42 year old ass is drafted to hold a position in the Spratleys three years from now I was wrong, but not all things are the same.

    can you please explain why the things being compared are so different as to be laughable, because from where i'm sitting making up lies in 2002 to further foreign policy goals is not especially separate from making up lies in 2020 to further foreign policy goals

    e: especially when that's not an exaggeration, in a lot of cases it's literally the same people. either they know they're lying or they're too credulous to do their job, either way they're complicit in the government making up lies to further foreign policy goals

    Typhoid Manny on
    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    can you please explain why the things being compared are so different as to be laughable, because from where i'm sitting making up lies in 2002 to further foreign policy goals is not especially separate from making up lies in 2020 to further foreign policy goals

    The Democrats weren't making up lies about the Iraq war, the GOP were so why are the GOP being let off the hook?
    e: especially when that's not an exaggeration, in a lot of cases it's literally the same people. either they know they're lying or they're too credulous to do their job,

    But it is, being conned by a con artist is not identical to be the con artist. Politicians aren't perfect, absolutely nobody was going to get every decision right. That's because politicians have lengthy careers and they rise through the ranks. They had a hand in horrific decisions like the Iraq war vote, but responsibly isn't equally shared been every group or individual. Did you think Biden or Hillary had a say in sending Colin Powell to the United Nations?
    either way they're complicit in the government making up lies to further foreign policy goals

    Governments lying isn't necessarily an evil in itself, they're not going to tell the world classified information or embarrassing secrets. If lies about the Iraq war are a priority, and they should be, why concentrate solely on Biden and Hillary when we have Dubya, Colin Powell and Dick Cheney? The Democrats weren't in control of the government from 2001 to 2009. Every government wants to enact their own foreign policy goals, that's simply being elected politicians - it's what they're there for.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I believe the accusation isn't about the government lying, but pundits specifically. In the last case, it was to serve government interests, in this case, to serve the previous administration's.

  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    can you please explain why the things being compared are so different as to be laughable, because from where i'm sitting making up lies in 2002 to further foreign policy goals is not especially separate from making up lies in 2020 to further foreign policy goals

    The Democrats weren't making up lies about the Iraq war, the GOP were so why are the GOP being let off the hook?
    e: especially when that's not an exaggeration, in a lot of cases it's literally the same people. either they know they're lying or they're too credulous to do their job,

    But it is, being conned by a con artist is not identical to be the con artist. Politicians aren't perfect, absolutely nobody was going to get every decision right. That's because politicians have lengthy careers and they rise through the ranks. They had a hand in horrific decisions like the Iraq war vote, but responsibly isn't equally shared been every group or individual. Did you think Biden or Hillary had a say in sending Colin Powell to the United Nations?
    either way they're complicit in the government making up lies to further foreign policy goals

    Governments lying isn't necessarily an evil in itself, they're not going to tell the world classified information or embarrassing secrets. If lies about the Iraq war are a priority, and they should be, why concentrate solely on Biden and Hillary when we have Dubya, Colin Powell and Dick Cheney? The Democrats weren't in control of the government from 2001 to 2009. Every government wants to enact their own foreign policy goals, that's simply being elected politicians - it's what they're there for.

    what? the current president of the united states parroted colin powell's iraq lies, he was instrumental in getting all those democrats who did vote to invade iraq to do so

    if there was any reason to literally ever give this specific government we're talking about the benefit of the doubt maybe it wouldn't be automatically bad for them to lie through their teeth, but that's not the reality they live in. they lie constantly in service of terrible goals. why would you ever take them at their word about anything or assume they're ever working in good faith, given their track record of knocking over legitimate governments and aiding friendly states in genocides and all the other myriad horrible things they're responsible for?

    also please don't part out quotes like that, it doesn't make things any more readable

    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
    MeeqeTefDee KaeMagellDamnItCohaagen
  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited June 19
    can you please explain why the things being compared are so different as to be laughable, because from where i'm sitting making up lies in 2002 to further foreign policy goals is not especially separate from making up lies in 2020 to further foreign policy goals

    The Democrats weren't making up lies about the Iraq war, the GOP were so why are the GOP being let off the hook?
    No one here wants to let the GOP off the hook! Everyone agrees that the Bush administration was absolutely awful and were the primary instigators of the war. Those fuckers should be in prison as far as I'm concerned. I don't know why this point keeps coming up. Have you heard anyone here defend Bush or the GOP? I have yet to witness such a post.

    Which is exactly why they aren't the focus of the discussion. There's no debate to be had on that subject. There's hardly any point in saying it; Bush being awful is basically a given on these boards. In contrast, when Democratic leaders are condemned or criticized, people defend them, because the view that Biden etc. are awful is not universally held. So that tends to be the focus of the arguments. It's something we aren't all already in agreement on, so there's actually something to discuss there.

    Kaputa on
    GiantGeek2020rahkeesh2000MeeqeTef
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited June 19
    can you please explain why the things being compared are so different as to be laughable, because from where i'm sitting making up lies in 2002 to further foreign policy goals is not especially separate from making up lies in 2020 to further foreign policy goals

    The Democrats weren't making up lies about the Iraq war, the GOP were so why are the GOP being let off the hook?
    e: especially when that's not an exaggeration, in a lot of cases it's literally the same people. either they know they're lying or they're too credulous to do their job,

    But it is, being conned by a con artist is not identical to be the con artist. Politicians aren't perfect, absolutely nobody was going to get every decision right. That's because politicians have lengthy careers and they rise through the ranks. They had a hand in horrific decisions like the Iraq war vote, but responsibly isn't equally shared been every group or individual. Did you think Biden or Hillary had a say in sending Colin Powell to the United Nations?
    either way they're complicit in the government making up lies to further foreign policy goals

    Governments lying isn't necessarily an evil in itself, they're not going to tell the world classified information or embarrassing secrets. If lies about the Iraq war are a priority, and they should be, why concentrate solely on Biden and Hillary when we have Dubya, Colin Powell and Dick Cheney? The Democrats weren't in control of the government from 2001 to 2009. Every government wants to enact their own foreign policy goals, that's simply being elected politicians - it's what they're there for.

    Harry, I’m going to explain this to you in the fashion of a mid-century American sitcom parent in the hopes you will understand the point:

    If George W. Bush was jumping off a bridge, should Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden do so too?

    No. Because that would be stupid and reckless. Just like voting for the War on Terror.

    The wrongness of the other party is clear. But they’re the GOP. They aren’t our representatives. Clinton and Biden were/are. Therefore, we lecture them because of that shared group dynamic, shared opposition to the GOP and their ostensible place as our representatives and thus supposedly answering to our collective democratic will.

    So yes, the GOP is wrong. We’re not calling that out because it is a given. Your argument on the other hand is tantamount to a tantrum where someone upset that their parent isn’t blaming the other party enough, in the hopes that maybe they’ll get off the hook for doing the same damn stupid shit.

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    Typhoid MannyDarkPrimusMeeqeTef
  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    for what it's worth those of us yelling at the current administration dislike george w bush and friends a lot more than the actual democratic party does, considering their mad rush to rehabilitate the man himself and baffling decisions like inviting colin powell to speak at the god damn party convention last year

    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
    DoodmannYamiB.tynicMeeqeGnizmoTefElendilDee KaeSolarKraintMagellBullheadKetBraHappy Little Machine
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    MrVyngaard
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    usnTyq4.jpg
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
    Typhoid MannyYamiB.Styrofoam SammichMeeqeTefShortyDoodmannHefflingMagellDamnItCohaagenBullheadKetBraHappy Little Machine
  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    edited June 19
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    okay well it also rehabilitated bush's legacy

    as have photos of bush sneaking michelle obama candy and what-all else

    e: also magazine articles about bush doing oil paintings of people whose death/maiming he is directly responsible for

    Typhoid Manny on
    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
    YamiB.MosatiTefDoodmannMagellBullhead
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    rahkeesh2000Gnome-InterruptusSmrtnikkimeFencingsaxshrykeLord_AsmodeusXantomasGennenalyse RuebenForarButtersHydropolo
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    IMO, Bush the Younger also benefits greatly from Trump being right there as an example of a Republican president who managed to be worse than him in every possible way.

    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    MarathonGnome-InterruptusGiantGeek2020FencingsaxGaddezElvenshaeGennenalyse RuebenHarry DresdenBullheadButtersQanamil
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited June 19
    Marathon wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    Is your argument that Biden won the election on the support of defecting Republicans who appreciated the democrats and the media rehabilitating the reputation of George Bush and his fellow nightmare coalition after the cratering of his reputation as of 2008? Because I don’t think the polling data is going to back you up particularly well on that one.


    Or are you being obstinate because you’re annoyed with folks suggesting the party has been complicit in rehabbing the reputations of the architects of the War on Terror and the Iraq War to no good end, thus trying instead to suggest “Biden won so nothing meaningfully bad has happened” and avoiding the issue of their complicity in one of the worst foreign policy actions of the 21st Century? Because that’s what this actually feels like given the lack of a decent argument and the tone you’re taking.

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    TefDamnItCohaagenFANTOMAS
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Millions of perfectly average no body special people kmew Iraq was going to be a disaster and that the case for it was pathetic. There's no space for tired old arguments about how these people who had spent years in government were tricked or just couldnt know better.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
    mrondeauTyphoid MannyRedTideIncenjucarMosatiMeeqeKelorNobodySleepTefShortyDee KaeKaputaKraintMagelljothkiDamnItCohaagenKetBraHappy Little Machine
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    Is your argument that Biden won the election on the support of defecting Republicans who appreciated the democrats and the media rehabilitating the reputation of George Bush and his fellow nightmare coalition after the cratering of his reputation as of 2008? Because I don’t think the polling data is going to back you up particularly well on that one.


    Or are you being obstinate because you’re annoyed with folks suggesting the party has been complicit in rehabbing the reputations of the architects of the War on Terror and the Iraq War to no good end, thus trying instead to suggest “Biden won so nothing meaningfully bad has happened” and avoiding the issue of their complicity in one of the worst foreign policy actions of the 21st Century? Because that’s what this actually feels like given the lack of a decent argument and the tone you’re taking.

    Neither of these actually.

    Fencingsax
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Anyhow all this is important to remember because these fucking ghouls still want us gallivanting about out there

    Our complete withdrawal from Afghanistan is neither in our national interest nor prudent nor morally defensible. In fact no one's articulated any real rationale, just slogans--"20 years" and "forever wars." Biden should reconsider and reverse his decision.

    Bill Kristol is an absolute nightmare ghoul no one should listen to

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    Styrofoam SammichShortyMagellGnome-InterruptusKetBra
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    Is your argument that Biden won the election on the support of defecting Republicans who appreciated the democrats and the media rehabilitating the reputation of George Bush and his fellow nightmare coalition after the cratering of his reputation as of 2008? Because I don’t think the polling data is going to back you up particularly well on that one.


    Or are you being obstinate because you’re annoyed with folks suggesting the party has been complicit in rehabbing the reputations of the architects of the War on Terror and the Iraq War to no good end, thus trying instead to suggest “Biden won so nothing meaningfully bad has happened” and avoiding the issue of their complicity in one of the worst foreign policy actions of the 21st Century? Because that’s what this actually feels like given the lack of a decent argument and the tone you’re taking.

    Neither of these actually.

    Then what, exactly, other than “Biden won” is your point, regarding the actual conversation at hand which is the complicity of our leadership in the GOP’s foreign policy agenda?

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    i'd be interested to see something that backs up any correlation between those things

    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    i'd be interested to see something that backs up any correlation between those things

    Biden got some votes from republicans who were sick of Trump’s shit, and it was a close election so we needed help wherever we could get it.

    That’s what having Powell on stage was supposed to help with. It’s impossible to say if that directly convinced people. But it was part of a strategy to get as many votes for Biden as possible.

    shrykeSmrtnikGennenalyse RuebenGnome-Interruptus
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited June 19
    Lanz was warned for this.
    Marathon wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    i'd be interested to see something that backs up any correlation between those things

    Biden got some votes from republicans who were sick of Trump’s shit, and it was a close election so we needed help wherever we could get it.

    That’s what having Powell on stage was supposed to help with. It’s impossible to say if that directly convinced people. But it was part of a strategy to get as many votes for Biden as possible.

    the thing you just said is literally the first option I presented you earlier, to which you said “neither.” Except now you can’t even defend your own point.

    Marathon wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    Is your argument that Biden won the election on the support of defecting Republicans who appreciated the democrats and the media rehabilitating the reputation of George Bush and his fellow nightmare coalition after the cratering of his reputation as of 2008? Because I don’t think the polling data is going to back you up particularly well on that one.


    Or are you being obstinate because you’re annoyed with folks suggesting the party has been complicit in rehabbing the reputations of the architects of the War on Terror and the Iraq War to no good end, thus trying instead to suggest “Biden won so nothing meaningfully bad has happened” and avoiding the issue of their complicity in one of the worst foreign policy actions of the 21st Century? Because that’s what this actually feels like given the lack of a decent argument and the tone you’re taking.

    Neither of these actually.

    So again I’m inclined to think what’s happening here is being upset about the fact that folks are demanding accountability for the party leadership’s complicity in the GOP’s Bush era foreign policy agenda and are looking for an excuse as to why that was necessary rather than manage the dissonance that our leadership is complicit in their shit.

    You can’t just come in and say “well he won didn’t he” as a retort to folks decrying the party leadership’s efforts to rehabilitate unrepentant war criminals, when you then turn around and go “except I can’t actually back up that rehabbing the war criminals helped…”

    It’s ridiculous! It’s facile bullshit! And even worse it legitimizes some pretty heinous shit! You might as well advocate for the satirical “we gotta get more racist” critique as an actual strategy to pursue Marathon! Because that’s the road your argument takes us down!

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    TefShortyYamiB.DamnItCohaagen
  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    i'd be interested to see something that backs up any correlation between those things

    Biden got some votes from republicans who were sick of Trump’s shit, and it was a close election so we needed help wherever we could get it.

    That’s what having Powell on stage was supposed to help with. It’s impossible to say if that directly convinced people. But it was part of a strategy to get as many votes for Biden as possible.

    so you're admitting that there isn't any way to tell for sure whether laundering war criminals' reputations actually secured any republican votes?

    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Anyhow all this is important to remember because these fucking ghouls still want us gallivanting about out there

    Our complete withdrawal from Afghanistan is neither in our national interest nor prudent nor morally defensible. In fact no one's articulated any real rationale, just slogans--"20 years" and "forever wars." Biden should reconsider and reverse his decision.

    Bill Kristol is an absolute nightmare ghoul no one should listen to

    Somebody needs to explain to Bill that Afghanistan is unwinnable; the Taliban is never going to stop and there isn't anything you can do to change that short of killing literally everyone outside of Kabul.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    BlackDragon480TicaldfjamGennenalyse RuebenGnome-Interruptus
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Anyhow all this is important to remember because these fucking ghouls still want us gallivanting about out there

    Our complete withdrawal from Afghanistan is neither in our national interest nor prudent nor morally defensible. In fact no one's articulated any real rationale, just slogans--"20 years" and "forever wars." Biden should reconsider and reverse his decision.

    Bill Kristol is an absolute nightmare ghoul no one should listen to

    Somebody needs to explain to Bill that Afghanistan is unwinnable; the Taliban is never going to stop and there isn't anything you can do to change that short of killing literally everyone outside of Kabul.

    Yes but Gaddez, bear with him here

    What if we just… ignored each and every part of that and didn’t leave. Ever.

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    FencingsaxMorganVBlackDragon480TefDarkPrimusDoodmannYamiB.Butters
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    i'd be interested to see something that backs up any correlation between those things

    Biden got some votes from republicans who were sick of Trump’s shit, and it was a close election so we needed help wherever we could get it.

    That’s what having Powell on stage was supposed to help with. It’s impossible to say if that directly convinced people. But it was part of a strategy to get as many votes for Biden as possible.

    the thing you just said is literally the first option I presented you earlier, to which you said “neither.” Except now you can’t even defend your own point.

    Marathon wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    Is your argument that Biden won the election on the support of defecting Republicans who appreciated the democrats and the media rehabilitating the reputation of George Bush and his fellow nightmare coalition after the cratering of his reputation as of 2008? Because I don’t think the polling data is going to back you up particularly well on that one.


    Or are you being obstinate because you’re annoyed with folks suggesting the party has been complicit in rehabbing the reputations of the architects of the War on Terror and the Iraq War to no good end, thus trying instead to suggest “Biden won so nothing meaningfully bad has happened” and avoiding the issue of their complicity in one of the worst foreign policy actions of the 21st Century? Because that’s what this actually feels like given the lack of a decent argument and the tone you’re taking.

    Neither of these actually.

    So again I’m inclined to think what’s happening here is being upset about the fact that folks are demanding accountability for the party leadership’s complicity in the GOP’s Bush era foreign policy agenda and are looking for an excuse as to why that was necessary rather than manage the dissonance that our leadership is complicit in their shit.

    You can’t just come in and say “well he won didn’t he” as a retort to folks decrying the party leadership’s efforts to rehabilitate unrepentant war criminals, when you then turn around and go “except I can’t actually back up that rehabbing the war criminals helped…”

    It’s ridiculous! It’s facile bullshit! And even worse it legitimizes some pretty heinous shit! You might as well advocate for the satirical “we gotta get more racist” critique as an actual strategy to pursue Marathon! Because that’s the road your argument takes us down!

    You’re reading this wrong at just about every point. I’m working today so I do not have time now. But if you are honestly interested in discussing this I can return to it later.

    If you’re just going to take what I say and interpret as unfavorably as possible in order to give yourself an opening to vent your righteous indignation, then I think we can both find better ways to spend our time.

    shrykerahkeesh2000ElvenshaeHappylilElfGnome-Interruptus
  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    edited June 19
    Lanz wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Anyhow all this is important to remember because these fucking ghouls still want us gallivanting about out there

    Our complete withdrawal from Afghanistan is neither in our national interest nor prudent nor morally defensible. In fact no one's articulated any real rationale, just slogans--"20 years" and "forever wars." Biden should reconsider and reverse his decision.

    Bill Kristol is an absolute nightmare ghoul no one should listen to

    Somebody needs to explain to Bill that Afghanistan is unwinnable; the Taliban is never going to stop and there isn't anything you can do to change that short of killing literally everyone outside of Kabul.

    Yes but Gaddez, bear with him here

    What if we just… ignored each and every part of that and didn’t leave. Ever.

    Let's leave Bill Kristol in Afghanistan.

    RedTide on
    RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
    Come Overwatch with meeeee
    Kayne Red RobezepherinFencingsaxShortyCommander ZoomGimTicaldfjamDarkPrimusDoodmannElvenshaeGennenalyse RuebenSkeithGnome-InterruptusBullheadButters
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited June 19
    RedTide wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Anyhow all this is important to remember because these fucking ghouls still want us gallivanting about out there

    Our complete withdrawal from Afghanistan is neither in our national interest nor prudent nor morally defensible. In fact no one's articulated any real rationale, just slogans--"20 years" and "forever wars." Biden should reconsider and reverse his decision.

    Bill Kristol is an absolute nightmare ghoul no one should listen to

    Somebody needs to explain to Bill that Afghanistan is unwinnable; the Taliban is never going to stop and there isn't anything you can do to change that short of killing literally everyone outside of Kabul.

    Yes but Gaddez, bear with him here

    What if we just… ignored each and every part of that and didn’t leave. Ever.

    Let's leave Bill Kristol in Afghanistan.

    Ah the Golden Age Superman Technique.

    eqh72gl3haol.jpeg


    I like it

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    zepherinBlackDragon480RedTidefedaykin666Commander ZoomTicaldfjamIncenjucarMrVyngaardSmrtnikzagdrobKayne Red RobeErlecSkeithMagellPolaritieGnome-Interruptus
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    i'd be interested to see something that backs up any correlation between those things

    Biden got some votes from republicans who were sick of Trump’s shit, and it was a close election so we needed help wherever we could get it.

    That’s what having Powell on stage was supposed to help with. It’s impossible to say if that directly convinced people. But it was part of a strategy to get as many votes for Biden as possible.

    the thing you just said is literally the first option I presented you earlier, to which you said “neither.” Except now you can’t even defend your own point.

    Marathon wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Inviting Powell to the convention wasn’t to rehabilitate Bush’s legacy.

    It was 100% to show Republicans that it’s ok for a Republican to support Joe Biden.

    How's that working out?

    Pretty well considering he won the election.

    Is your argument that Biden won the election on the support of defecting Republicans who appreciated the democrats and the media rehabilitating the reputation of George Bush and his fellow nightmare coalition after the cratering of his reputation as of 2008? Because I don’t think the polling data is going to back you up particularly well on that one.


    Or are you being obstinate because you’re annoyed with folks suggesting the party has been complicit in rehabbing the reputations of the architects of the War on Terror and the Iraq War to no good end, thus trying instead to suggest “Biden won so nothing meaningfully bad has happened” and avoiding the issue of their complicity in one of the worst foreign policy actions of the 21st Century? Because that’s what this actually feels like given the lack of a decent argument and the tone you’re taking.

    Neither of these actually.

    So again I’m inclined to think what’s happening here is being upset about the fact that folks are demanding accountability for the party leadership’s complicity in the GOP’s Bush era foreign policy agenda and are looking for an excuse as to why that was necessary rather than manage the dissonance that our leadership is complicit in their shit.

    You can’t just come in and say “well he won didn’t he” as a retort to folks decrying the party leadership’s efforts to rehabilitate unrepentant war criminals, when you then turn around and go “except I can’t actually back up that rehabbing the war criminals helped…”

    It’s ridiculous! It’s facile bullshit! And even worse it legitimizes some pretty heinous shit! You might as well advocate for the satirical “we gotta get more racist” critique as an actual strategy to pursue Marathon! Because that’s the road your argument takes us down!

    You’re reading this wrong at just about every point. I’m working today so I do not have time now. But if you are honestly interested in discussing this I can return to it later.

    If you’re just going to take what I say and interpret as unfavorably as possible in order to give yourself an opening to vent your righteous indignation, then I think we can both find better ways to spend our time.

    Well you’re not making a particularly great argument, and the things you’re arguing for are at least accidentally basically giving rhetorical cover for rehabbing unrepentant war criminals.

    I’m not trying to “vent righteous indignation,” your arguments just are either badly made or you’re arguing for some pretty shitty shit. As it seems, your argument is basically that the rehabilitation of Powell is fine, because it was a necessary strategy to pull never trumpers over into being comfortable in voting Biden. I think that’s abhorrent given the unjust loss of life.

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    Ursus
  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    I don’t think we should have gone into Afghanistan or Iraq to begin with. I have always thought we should have just demobilized and left and there wasn’t a real national security interest being addressed with us being there.

    DoodmannPolaritie
  • ShortyShorty JUDGE BROSEF Registered User regular
    for my part I don't see how it even matters whether colin powell was invited in order to "rehabilitate GWB's legacy"

    colin powell is himself a war criminal, exactly the kind of pseudo-competent general who shouldn't be publicly associated with by anyone respectable

    bringing him in was gross and embarrassing before you even get into how it affects perception of GWB himself

    Styrofoam SammichDoodmannDarkPrimusMosatiKraintMagellKetBraHappy Little Machine
  • OghulkOghulk Registered User regular
    Colin Powell stood before the entire fucking world and knowingly lied about intelligence to send a contingent of western powers to war.

    Really felt like bringing him on stage was a pretty bad move, and I'm generally much less left on foreign policy stuff than others.

    DoodmannShortyDarkPrimuszepherinzagdrobBlackDragon480Dee KaeMosatiKraintSkeithBullheadKetBraHappy Little MachineBandable
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Oghulk wrote: »
    Colin Powell stood before the entire fucking world and knowingly lied about intelligence to send a contingent of western powers to war.

    Really felt like bringing him on stage was a pretty bad move, and I'm generally much less left on foreign policy stuff than others.

    Yeah he should have been an independent sidebar not given stage time I agree. Maybe an 'official' video statement at most.

    If McCain were living and was gonna take the stage, ok. I will say that it probably is worth it. Even Cindy in John's place.

    But I do see how many hardcore republicans are v. disenchanted with the GOP / Trump, and saying a year ago making allies that in hindsight you (maybe / maybe not) need that look bad in today's daylight is still better than Trump getting another 4.

    Gnome-Interruptus
Sign In or Register to comment.