Using a force ability to hurt out of malice would be dark side, I just don't see how force choke is any different than force grip.
Using push to shove a trooper's speeder into a tree, or off a ledge of a vessel will also kill/maim them and could be considered worse than choking someone.
Sounds like some garbage Jedi would say because they want to act high and mighty. Has it actually ever been stated that it's a light side thing? Ahsoka choked someone briefly when she was a jedi, but then scolded a youngling for copying her because the youngling used it to hurt someone on purpose instead of in self defense.
This feels super semantic. "You see, force choke is bad, but force grip is good"
Edit edit edit: Thought of another example - Grogu choked Cara Dune because he felt she was threatening Din. Not out of malice or hate, but as a way to protect him. Is that darkside?
The mind tricks are universal force powers. Choke is Dark side.
Why?
I was ripping that straight from KOTOR which breaks powers down to 3 trypes: light, dark, and universal.
Its an arbitrary game mechanic based on the force powers characters use in the films. Thats it.
KOTOR isn't canon and arbitrary is a good word to describe said mechanic, or in my opinion, has been used thus far in the thread.
Much like Din's helmet, he's been told his entire life that he cannot show his face or be excommunicated. He's only been taught this because of the self-righteousness of his faction. The jedi want to be seen as "good" whereas there have been many examples of this not being the case.
TehSpectre on
0
Options
BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
Grogu's force choke is dark side because he used it from a place of fear and hate.
Also, because you are using the force to actually do the damage, rather than using the force on a thing that causes damage. Sort of an intent/level of removal thing?
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Grogu's force choke is dark side because he used it from a place of fear and hate.
Also, because you are using the force to actually do the damage, rather than using the force on a thing that causes damage. Sort of an intent/level of removal thing?
That’s where Rebels came down on it, at least according to Bendu. The Force is a natural... force, and the light and dark side are more about how sentient beings interpret their actions when they try to manipulate it.
A Dark Side user is always going to be an asshole because they let hate, fear, and anger consume them, but a Jedi could also be a complete bastard who dispassionately does horrible things for what they perceive as a greater good.
Grogu's force choke is dark side because he used it from a place of fear and hate.
Also, because you are using the force to actually do the damage, rather than using the force on a thing that causes damage. Sort of an intent/level of removal thing?
Defending one's self or others is intrinsically out of fear. Fear of being hurt/killed or losing friends/innocent people.
Jedi being unemotional arbiters of justice has been shown to be patently false. There have been plenty of jedi who fall in love, fight in wars, manipulate people's minds to get what they want, etc etc.
"Whatever conclusions you ultimately draw about the incident taking place between myself and Lord Vader during yesterday morning's briefing, he was wrong, and trying to crush someone else's windpipe doesn't make you any less wrong, if you're wrong to begin with. Which he was. I do not concede the argument."
―An unrepentant Motti after being telekinetically choked by Darth Vader
Jedi don't allow people to have these thoughts or choices as the mind trick has been shown to make the person completely forget the experience altogether.
Choking somebody is slowly killing them via torture. A Jedi can stop an aggressor by using the force to physically stop them by knocking them away or hitting them with something less lethal than literally stopping them from breathing. Just blindly lashing out with the force to hurt people is dark side. A Jedi should be trained to protect themselves and others without doing that.
The mind tricks are universal force powers. Choke is Dark side.
Why?
I was ripping that straight from KOTOR which breaks powers down to 3 trypes: light, dark, and universal.
Its an arbitrary game mechanic based on the force powers characters use in the films. Thats it.
KOTOR isn't canon and arbitrary is a good word to describe said mechanic, or in my opinion, has been used thus far in the thread.
I'm not sure any force use has been canonized to be explicitly "dark" or "light" beyond your emotions at the time.
But so many ancillary material codified the powers it is "near" canon...
I feel people are acting as though it were fact instead of opinion, which is my issue. Maybe I am reading the wrong tone of the posts, though, the internet is bad for that kind of thing.
The mind tricks are universal force powers. Choke is Dark side.
Why?
That's just like, how it is, man. We could go around and around about grey jedi and how it should be the intent of the ability which determines if it's light or dark, but that's not how it works.
The mind tricks are universal force powers. Choke is Dark side.
Why?
I was ripping that straight from KOTOR which breaks powers down to 3 trypes: light, dark, and universal.
Its an arbitrary game mechanic based on the force powers characters use in the films. Thats it.
KOTOR isn't canon and arbitrary is a good word to describe said mechanic, or in my opinion, has been used thus far in the thread.
I'm not sure any force use has been canonized to be explicitly "dark" or "light" beyond your emotions at the time.
But so many ancillary material codified the powers it is "near" canon...
I feel people are acting as though it were fact instead of opinion.
A lot of this comes from video games and tabletop RPGs, where certain powers are hardcoded for gameplay reasons. Force Choke is always gotten by putting points in the Dark Side, etc.
The mind tricks are universal force powers. Choke is Dark side.
Why?
I was ripping that straight from KOTOR which breaks powers down to 3 trypes: light, dark, and universal.
Its an arbitrary game mechanic based on the force powers characters use in the films. Thats it.
KOTOR isn't canon and arbitrary is a good word to describe said mechanic, or in my opinion, has been used thus far in the thread.
I'm not sure any force use has been canonized to be explicitly "dark" or "light" beyond your emotions at the time.
But so many ancillary material codified the powers it is "near" canon...
I feel people are acting as though it were fact instead of opinion.
A lot of this comes from video games and tabletop RPGs, where certain powers are hardcoded for gameplay reasons. Force Choke is always gotten by putting points in the Dark Side, etc.
I understand the argument, but I don't believe that makes it fact.
The mind tricks are universal force powers. Choke is Dark side.
Why?
That's just like, how it is, man. We could go around and around about grey jedi and how it should be the intent of the ability which determines if it's light or dark, but that's not how it works.
Oh.
TehSpectre on
+1
Options
BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
Grogu's force choke is dark side because he used it from a place of fear and hate.
Also, because you are using the force to actually do the damage, rather than using the force on a thing that causes damage. Sort of an intent/level of removal thing?
Defending one's self or others is intrinsically out of fear. Fear of being hurt/killed or losing friends/innocent people.
Jedi being unemotional arbiters of justice has been shown to be patently false. There have been plenty of jedi who fall in love, fight in wars, manipulate people's minds to get what they want, etc etc.
"Whatever conclusions you ultimately draw about the incident taking place between myself and Lord Vader during yesterday morning's briefing, he was wrong, and trying to crush someone else's windpipe doesn't make you any less wrong, if you're wrong to begin with. Which he was. I do not concede the argument."
―An unrepentant Motti after being telekinetically choked by Darth Vader
Jedi don't allow people to have these thoughts or choices as the mind trick has been shown to make the person completely forget the experience altogether.
I'm all for the idea that Jedi as emotionally dead people is real weird.
But it's possible to let your desire to protect be your driving intent, or the fear that someone close to you gets hurt drive your intent. They may be the same thing on some level, but again, it's about where you are coming from.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
The mind tricks are universal force powers. Choke is Dark side.
Why?
That's just like, how it is, man. We could go around and around about grey jedi and how it should be the intent of the ability which determines if it's light or dark, but that's not how it works.
Grogu's force choke is dark side because he used it from a place of fear and hate.
Also, because you are using the force to actually do the damage, rather than using the force on a thing that causes damage. Sort of an intent/level of removal thing?
Defending one's self or others is intrinsically out of fear. Fear of being hurt/killed or losing friends/innocent people.
Jedi being unemotional arbiters of justice has been shown to be patently false. There have been plenty of jedi who fall in love, fight in wars, manipulate people's minds to get what they want, etc etc.
"Whatever conclusions you ultimately draw about the incident taking place between myself and Lord Vader during yesterday morning's briefing, he was wrong, and trying to crush someone else's windpipe doesn't make you any less wrong, if you're wrong to begin with. Which he was. I do not concede the argument."
―An unrepentant Motti after being telekinetically choked by Darth Vader
Jedi don't allow people to have these thoughts or choices as the mind trick has been shown to make the person completely forget the experience altogether.
I'm all for the idea that Jedi as emotionally dead people is real weird.
But it's possible to let your desire to protect be your driving intent, or the fear that someone close to you gets hurt drive your intent. They may be the same thing on some level, but again, it's about where you are coming from.
I agree! This was the majority of my argument. Ahsoka and Grogu have forced choked folks out of self-defense and to protect someone. It absolutely doesn't need to be a darkside ability and I believe that train of thought is short-sighted.
I don't believe the Jedi train their users to use Force Lightning because it looks scary and they need to keep up appearances as these holy warriors of justice. Both Rey (Trying to save Chewie) and Dooku (protecting his padawan, Qui-Gon while a Jedi) used Force Lightning to protect others.
0
Options
BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
I also wonder if some force powers might be "dark side", just because it requires you to draw on those emotions to generate the effects?
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
The mind tricks are universal force powers. Choke is Dark side.
Why?
That's just like, how it is, man. We could go around and around about grey jedi and how it should be the intent of the ability which determines if it's light or dark, but that's not how it works.
"Sure it looks like force lightning, but I was totally focused on happy thoughts while electrocuting those people. Must mean it's a light side power."
We make the same distinction with colored lightsabers so sure, green lightning is light and blue lightning is dark?
I am in the business of saving lives.
0
Options
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
This happens in Avatar, too. When Katara and the gang run into:
Blood bending, it is treated as this kind of massive taboo. But when you think about it, other types of bending are used in similar ways - Toph regularly encases people in earth or even metal, and Katara is not above literally freezing someone into a giant iceberg to stop them. What's the difference between those things and just using blood bending to force someone to stop attacking you?
As with many things, the distinction should lie more with the user and usage than with the tool.
+4
Options
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
This happens in Avatar, too. When Katara and the gang run into:
Blood bending, it is treated as this kind of massive taboo. But when you think about it, other types of bending are used in similar ways - Toph regularly encases people in earth or even metal, and Katara is not above literally freezing someone into a giant iceberg to stop them. What's the difference between those things and just using blood bending to force someone to stop attacking you?
As with many things, the distinction should lie more with the user and usage than with the tool.
Blood bending is using a person's own body against them. All those others are outside forces affecting a person.
+1
Options
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
This happens in Avatar, too. When Katara and the gang run into:
Blood bending, it is treated as this kind of massive taboo. But when you think about it, other types of bending are used in similar ways - Toph regularly encases people in earth or even metal, and Katara is not above literally freezing someone into a giant iceberg to stop them. What's the difference between those things and just using blood bending to force someone to stop attacking you?
As with many things, the distinction should lie more with the user and usage than with the tool.
Blood bending is using a person's own body against them. All those others are outside forces affecting a person.
I fail to see the difference if you are forcing someone to do something against their will regardless.
This happens in Avatar, too. When Katara and the gang run into:
Blood bending, it is treated as this kind of massive taboo. But when you think about it, other types of bending are used in similar ways - Toph regularly encases people in earth or even metal, and Katara is not above literally freezing someone into a giant iceberg to stop them. What's the difference between those things and just using blood bending to force someone to stop attacking you?
As with many things, the distinction should lie more with the user and usage than with the tool.
I'm guessing that cartoon logic applies, and that the examples for Earth and Water (Ice) simply immobilize and/or put in suspended animation, with no suffocation risk.
One thing this show has made me care about was Mandalore and Mandalorians in general which is a huge part of what I thought was lame before.
So you can be found by a Mandalorian and raised in their culture and you are a Foundling. Does that make you a second class citizen with compared to Mandalorians who are born to a Mandalorian couple?
Is there interspecies judgment based on nonhuman Mandalorian foundlings?
Actually that raises another question, are Mandalorians native to Mandalore human?
I am in the business of saving lives.
0
Options
StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
One thing this show has made me care about was Mandalore and Mandalorians in general which is a huge part of what I thought was lame before.
So you can be found by a Mandalorian and raised in their culture and you are a Foundling. Does that make you a second class citizen with compared to Mandalorians who are born to a Mandalorian couple?
Is there interspecies judgment based on nonhuman Mandalorian foundlings?
Actually that raises another question, are Mandalorians native to Mandalore human?
Pretty sure there isn't an actual Mandalorian species. Mandalore and Mandalorians were created by multiple species coming together who had the same beliefs.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
0
Options
ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
edited December 2020
Mandalorians are like Alderaanians. Humans from their own planet. So if anything it makes them a race within the human species, I think.
EU has it that there was originally a Mandalorian species, also known as the Taung. They eventually died out, but their culture lives on via other species who were adopted into it before they passed.
+3
Options
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Clone Wars portrayed Mandalorians as largely being humans.
One thing this show has made me care about was Mandalore and Mandalorians in general which is a huge part of what I thought was lame before.
So you can be found by a Mandalorian and raised in their culture and you are a Foundling. Does that make you a second class citizen with compared to Mandalorians who are born to a Mandalorian couple?
Is there interspecies judgment based on nonhuman Mandalorian foundlings?
Actually that raises another question, are Mandalorians native to Mandalore human?
The whole "foundling" thing is new, so we don't know for sure - but we do know that Jango and Din are foundlings, and Boba inherited his armor from Jango. So it doesn't seem like they're second class citizens.
I don't recall any non-human Mando'a, but there doesn't mean there can't be any.
There aren't any sentients native to Mandalore, but afaik they're all human, so I guess they're all colonizers.
One thing this show has made me care about was Mandalore and Mandalorians in general which is a huge part of what I thought was lame before.
So you can be found by a Mandalorian and raised in their culture and you are a Foundling. Does that make you a second class citizen with compared to Mandalorians who are born to a Mandalorian couple?
Is there interspecies judgment based on nonhuman Mandalorian foundlings?
Actually that raises another question, are Mandalorians native to Mandalore human?
The whole "foundling" thing is new, so we don't know for sure - but we do know that Jango and Din are foundlings, and Boba inherited his armor from Jango. So it doesn't seem like they're second class citizens.
I don't recall any non-human Mando'a, but there doesn't mean there can't be any.
There aren't any sentients native to Mandalore, but afaik they're all human, so I guess they're all colonizers.
Foundling isn't new new, par se. As Din noted early on, Mandalorian's not about race, it's about creed. So long as other Mandalorians recognize you as a Mandalorian doing Mandalorian stuff, you are one.
It's just easier for show purposes to not have to do extra make up/armor gubbins for non-humans.
"Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
Hail Hydra
0
Options
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Posts
Overriding my free will seems pretty dark when you think about it.
Bravely Default / 3DS Friend Code = 3394-3571-1609
“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack"
Seems like it's more on the spectrum of dark side.
Using push to shove a trooper's speeder into a tree, or off a ledge of a vessel will also kill/maim them and could be considered worse than choking someone.
Sounds like some garbage Jedi would say because they want to act high and mighty. Has it actually ever been stated that it's a light side thing? Ahsoka choked someone briefly when she was a jedi, but then scolded a youngling for copying her because the youngling used it to hurt someone on purpose instead of in self defense.
This feels super semantic. "You see, force choke is bad, but force grip is good"
Edit edit edit: Thought of another example - Grogu choked Cara Dune because he felt she was threatening Din. Not out of malice or hate, but as a way to protect him. Is that darkside?
Id say both of their uses of it, despite them being Jedi at the time, was on the dark side of the force spectrum
I was ripping that straight from KOTOR which breaks powers down to 3 trypes: light, dark, and universal.
Its an arbitrary game mechanic based on the force powers characters use in the films. Thats it.
Much like Din's helmet, he's been told his entire life that he cannot show his face or be excommunicated. He's only been taught this because of the self-righteousness of his faction. The jedi want to be seen as "good" whereas there have been many examples of this not being the case.
Also, because you are using the force to actually do the damage, rather than using the force on a thing that causes damage. Sort of an intent/level of removal thing?
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
I'm not sure any force use has been canonized to be explicitly "dark" or "light" beyond your emotions at the time.
But so many ancillary material codified the powers it is "near" canon...
That’s where Rebels came down on it, at least according to Bendu. The Force is a natural... force, and the light and dark side are more about how sentient beings interpret their actions when they try to manipulate it.
A Dark Side user is always going to be an asshole because they let hate, fear, and anger consume them, but a Jedi could also be a complete bastard who dispassionately does horrible things for what they perceive as a greater good.
Jedi being unemotional arbiters of justice has been shown to be patently false. There have been plenty of jedi who fall in love, fight in wars, manipulate people's minds to get what they want, etc etc.
"Whatever conclusions you ultimately draw about the incident taking place between myself and Lord Vader during yesterday morning's briefing, he was wrong, and trying to crush someone else's windpipe doesn't make you any less wrong, if you're wrong to begin with. Which he was. I do not concede the argument."
―An unrepentant Motti after being telekinetically choked by Darth Vader
Jedi don't allow people to have these thoughts or choices as the mind trick has been shown to make the person completely forget the experience altogether.
That's just like, how it is, man. We could go around and around about grey jedi and how it should be the intent of the ability which determines if it's light or dark, but that's not how it works.
A lot of this comes from video games and tabletop RPGs, where certain powers are hardcoded for gameplay reasons. Force Choke is always gotten by putting points in the Dark Side, etc.
Oh.
I'm all for the idea that Jedi as emotionally dead people is real weird.
But it's possible to let your desire to protect be your driving intent, or the fear that someone close to you gets hurt drive your intent. They may be the same thing on some level, but again, it's about where you are coming from.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
Except for those occasions where it is how it works.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Electric_Judgment
"Sure it looks like force lightning, but I was totally focused on happy thoughts while electrocuting those people. Must mean it's a light side power."
I don't believe the Jedi train their users to use Force Lightning because it looks scary and they need to keep up appearances as these holy warriors of justice. Both Rey (Trying to save Chewie) and Dooku (protecting his padawan, Qui-Gon while a Jedi) used Force Lightning to protect others.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
We make the same distinction with colored lightsabers so sure, green lightning is light and blue lightning is dark?
As with many things, the distinction should lie more with the user and usage than with the tool.
Yes. Force Lightning and Force Choke are "Dark Side" abilities because they draw on your anger, fear and hatred to produce their effects.
I fail to see the difference if you are forcing someone to do something against their will regardless.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Jedi throw people around all the time!
So you can be found by a Mandalorian and raised in their culture and you are a Foundling. Does that make you a second class citizen with compared to Mandalorians who are born to a Mandalorian couple?
Is there interspecies judgment based on nonhuman Mandalorian foundlings?
Actually that raises another question, are Mandalorians native to Mandalore human?
Pretty sure there isn't an actual Mandalorian species. Mandalore and Mandalorians were created by multiple species coming together who had the same beliefs.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
I don't recall any non-human Mando'a, but there doesn't mean there can't be any.
There aren't any sentients native to Mandalore, but afaik they're all human, so I guess they're all colonizers.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Foundling isn't new new, par se. As Din noted early on, Mandalorian's not about race, it's about creed. So long as other Mandalorians recognize you as a Mandalorian doing Mandalorian stuff, you are one.
It's just easier for show purposes to not have to do extra make up/armor gubbins for non-humans.
Nah, that's Watto. Mandalores are Roman Catholics, Jedi are practicing Islam, and the Mando-Jedi wars was the crusades
It's okay if they're being a dick. - Ancient Jedi Proverb