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[Cyberpunk 2077] Delisted on PSN in 2020, post-final release pushed back 57 years

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2021
    dporowski wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Speaking of important to single playthroughs, I wish it was easier to respec. I'm thinking about respeccing my stealth pistol build into being stealth monowire after getting the legendary one, and costing 100k to respec is a looooot. I don't understand why respec isn't just "go to your apartment and do it." I get you wouldn't want to do it mid mission, but I generally feel like these things should be easy to do, especially if you made a mistake or it isn't panning out like you hoped. And if people want to abuse it and change to something optimal before every mission, who cares? If that's how they have fun let them.
    Investing heavily into crafting makes the 100k price trivial. I will probably never have a character that doesn’t go hard into that tree.

    I mean sure but you shouldn't have to. I just learned the "buy shit from vending machines and make sniper rifles" trick so I've been grinding that out and doing some side quests. The initial point still stands though. Just make it easy. I don't see the point of gating it.

    If you're on PC, you can just respec with a save editor.

    I am, thank you. I thought about looking into some console commands but this seems easier.

    I also earned the 100k and then I found a clothing mod that increases your crit damage by 30% for about the same amount and then I thought "Well that seems good" so I have to start over!
    dporowski wrote: »
    Double edit: I think a lot of the otherwise "weird" choices are because it's a video game translation of a TTRPG. D&D doesn't have respecs; D&D video games don't really have respecs, or if they do they're nontrivial. Same deal here, so there's a range of non-optimal choices, same as there are in tabletop, since maybe you think it's cool to use a rapier, man! Who cares if a double-bladed axe does "more damage", that's not what your character's into, you know?

    D&D has unlimited free respecs. It's called "talk to your DM." Just last campaign I was trying out a warlock, didn't really like it a few sessions in and we talked and I reclassed. No big deal. World of Warcraft has respecs, the last time I checked the gold cost for it was basically trivial? I haven't played since like the second expansion. Lots of games offer it.

    It's not necessarily about being able to metagame or min max, sometimes you might realize "you know I'm a little bored just running in and shooting maybe I'd rather do stealthing or melee." Some percentage of players will just get frustrated and stop playing, which like I guess you got their money already who cares but they probably designed the game so people would have fun.

    Er, when you say "reclass", you mean "make a new character"? 'Cause I gotta tell you, that's how it works in every game I've played ever. You made a character. Bobby is a warlock. If you want a not-warlock, time to say bye to Bobby, and make Bobby 2.0.

    House rules is house rules, and play like you like, right, but D&D, the game system, has no concept of respec. Cyberpunk the RPG system also has no concept of respec, so adding a mechanism into the video game version to do so is a concession to "it's not a TTRPG", but like, the idea is "this is a person, with particular skills and traits and experience developed over time", and leaving that fairly static is part of the whole thing.

    You're not supposed to be able to tune your build to a given encounter, or optimise for a quest, or have the best solution at all times. If you're worried about lots of combat, and you're a squishy hacker, the answer is "well, get creative" and not "just go make a not-hacker for a bit".

    I mean I made the character into a not warlock and we retconned the backstory because exactly how he used to murder things was irrelevant to the story?

    Tabletop rpgs don't need to explicitly list our "how to remake your character if you're unhappy" the same way many rules don't need to be listed because there's a dm to adjudicate those things as needed which video games don't have. Tabletop rpgs don't usually have mechanical rules involving romance like video game rpgs do, it's still possible!

    I don't understand how somebody who wants to minmax their character for each encounter is minimizing your enjoyment of the game in a single player rpg if that's how they want to play.

    ChaosHat on
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    EspantaPajaroEspantaPajaro Registered User regular
    This is the same argument that pop ups in regards to difficulty where people demand that x game have an easy mode for y reason . If you don’t like the way the game is set up it’s fine to not play it or return it or whatever.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    This is the same argument that pop ups in regards to difficulty where people demand that x game have an easy mode for y reason . If you don’t like the way the game is set up it’s fine to not play it or return it or whatever.

    It's also fine to ask for an easier difficulty.

    The argument works both ways.

    That's why they keep popping up. Nobody can be right and there cannot be a consensus.

    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    Space PickleSpace Pickle Registered User regular
    Ending:
    I wish that you got to actually play the space station heist. I wonder if that too was cut content.

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    EspantaPajaroEspantaPajaro Registered User regular
    Ending:
    I wish that you got to actually play the space station heist. I wonder if that too was cut content.

    Think that’s more for dlc honestly.

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    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    This is the same argument that pop ups in regards to difficulty where people demand that x game have an easy mode for y reason . If you don’t like the way the game is set up it’s fine to not play it or return it or whatever.

    Except games are just software and there are a ton of flags and variables which could easily be left up to the player to disable/enable/adjust, and should be given to the player to work with. Heck, there are usually dev tools still in the game when it's released that allow modification of a pile of things, they're just turned off in final release.

    This whole respec thing is an excellent example. I think having a respec barrier meshes with most RPGs, other people disagree. Easy solution? Let players have a menu option to turn it on or off, or make it more/less expensive. Fast travel is another one. I can't even begin to want to try and understand why people would want fast travel off in most modern open-world games, but "just don't use" isn't the same as outright disabling it. Solution? Just give players the dang option to disable it from the menu. Something like the difficulty of Sekiro? Just give the players a dang easy mode where they've got 50% damage resistance and +50% damage or something; this isn't a fucking movie where a director is trying to focus the viewer's attention a certain way for a reason, it's a game. The point is fun and interesting experiences. Let players pick their own fun.

    On the scale of making the game in the first place, players being able to change these things is not hard. Though in the case of Cyberpunk, there's the fact that the game is basically only about 60-70% done right now, so it actually makes a little sense that refinements like what I'm talking about aren't there when the game can't even reliably keep models from triggering T-pose.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    I do not expect Cyberpunk to have anything like this because they haven't even finished the game in the first place. They haven't even done a balance pass at all.

    People make the joke that x game is still in Beta but in this case it's very much true.

    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited January 2021
    I wouldn't even say it's in dev beta. Beta is when your game is basically done and you're down to the sweeping for persistent bugs and any big balance issues that stick out. The game is largely done, it's just not in a nice, refined state.

    Cyberpunk is solidly an alpha-state game. Huge chunks are missing or incomplete in ways very obvious to the player, much of the elements that are playable are broken or buggy in some way, the world map isn't even sealed up properly, animations and objects placement is buggy as shit, and there's been virtually no major bug-sweeping here. Without even remotely trying, I encountered at least several dozen major and minor obvious bugs before just giving up the game until they patch it.

    They just got the graphics to semi-work with brute-force power on PC, mostly finished up the story, then packed it up for release.

    Ninja Snarl P on
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    dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    Ending:
    I wish that you got to actually play the space station heist. I wonder if that too was cut content.

    Think that’s more for dlc honestly.
    I'd wager not. The entire point of that ending is V is essentially chasing one more score, because this time it totally has the answer. Every time someone has given them a job, saying this will have the answer, it was a lie. You know it's a lie, but here you go, chasing one more... It's cost you your friends, your partner, everything in service of fame and "a chance", with each job getting more and more ridiculous and difficult, and now you're helping an AI that you know is brainwashing people in order to...? You're a mark, and you gave up your chances at peace already.

    The heist isn't a cool new mission; it's an indicator of exactly how fucked and bought-in to the Night City mythos V has become.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    I wouldn't even say it's in dev beta. Beta is when your game is basically done and you're down to the sweeping for persistent bugs and any big balance issues that stick out. The game is largely done, it's just not in a nice, refined state.

    Cyberpunk is solidly an alpha-state game. Huge chunks are missing or incomplete in ways very obvious to the player, much of the elements that are playable are broken or buggy in some way, the world map isn't even sealed up properly, animations and objects placement is buggy as shit, and there's been virtually no major bug-sweeping here. Without even remotely trying, I encountered at least several dozen major and minor obvious bugs before just giving up the game until they patch it.

    They just got the graphics to semi-work with brute-force power on PC, mostly finished up the story, then packed it up for release.

    Yeah I started typing alpha but decided to be diplomatic.

    I agree. It's definitely an alpha.

    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Questioning how he could know most of the staff knew and openly said it wouldn't be ready for release in 2020 when he only talked to 20 people is hilarious.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Yeesh. I would never bring up the review scores in this situation. It means nothing.

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    urahonkyurahonky Cynical Old Man Registered User regular
    Woow yeah that was pretty bad.

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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    How is he still this bad at this?

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited January 2021
    https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkgame/comments/kygmjn/how_armor_translates_into_damage_reduction/
    Noticed Berserk, once the duration ends, actually reduces your resistance until you reload your save. It doesn't work in buffing resistances, but still deducts the resistance to "bring you back to normal", so just beware of that.
    Oh. That seems like a problem that could cause big issues.

    It is also kind of funny how easy 100% crit chance is to get

    Couscous on
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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2021
    This is the same argument that pop ups in regards to difficulty where people demand that x game have an easy mode for y reason . If you don’t like the way the game is set up it’s fine to not play it or return it or whatever.

    This whole respec thing is an excellent example. I think having a respec barrier meshes with most RPGs, other people disagree. Easy solution? Let players have a menu option to turn it on or off, or make it more/less expensive. Fast travel is another one. I can't even begin to want to try and understand why people would want fast travel off in most modern open-world games, but "just don't use" isn't the same as outright disabling it. Solution? Just give players the dang option to disable it from the menu. Something like the difficulty of Sekiro? Just give the players a dang easy mode where they've got 50% damage resistance and +50% damage or something; this isn't a fucking movie where a director is trying to focus the viewer's attention a certain way for a reason, it's a game. The point is fun and interesting experiences. Let players pick their own fun.

    This is the part I don't understand and I'm trying to see where you and jungleroom are coming from. Is it a self control thing? Like if the option is there you're going to be tempted to use it, like having a bag of chips out on the table instead of put away? Because to me it does seem the same.

    ChaosHat on
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    TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited January 2021
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    This is the same argument that pop ups in regards to difficulty where people demand that x game have an easy mode for y reason . If you don’t like the way the game is set up it’s fine to not play it or return it or whatever.

    This whole respec thing is an excellent example. I think having a respec barrier meshes with most RPGs, other people disagree. Easy solution? Let players have a menu option to turn it on or off, or make it more/less expensive. Fast travel is another one. I can't even begin to want to try and understand why people would want fast travel off in most modern open-world games, but "just don't use" isn't the same as outright disabling it. Solution? Just give players the dang option to disable it from the menu. Something like the difficulty of Sekiro? Just give the players a dang easy mode where they've got 50% damage resistance and +50% damage or something; this isn't a fucking movie where a director is trying to focus the viewer's attention a certain way for a reason, it's a game. The point is fun and interesting experiences. Let players pick their own fun.

    This is the part I don't understand and I'm trying to see where you and jungleroom are coming from. Is it a self control thing? Like if the option is there you're going to be tempted to use it, like having a bag of chips out on the table instead of put away? Because to me it does seem the same.

    Yes, the temptation. Dark Souls isn't a rewarding series because you beat down hard thing, it's a rewarding series because it forces you to learn, and then once things click it's an incomparable feeling to games that let you just tick down a difficulty slider to get past a certain spot then tick it back up.

    Once you get to a point where a game lets you just minmax every single encounter is when making builds, leveling, getting gear, and everything that goes with it becomes completely useless and the game should just kit you out and remove all player choice.

    D3, as we mentioned before, had this problem. Which is why you only had 1-2 functional builds per class, because you could instantly minmax every single thing and the endgoals of the game did not support any more. Which is also why it's a dead game and at least two other ARPG's released around the same time are far more alive, as they put more restrictions on builds and make player choice a responsibility as opposed to a "who gives a shit?" thing. Which makes figuring out builds in those 2 games a hell of a lot more rewarding that Diablo 3, where they just basically tell you what the best build is every single patch.

    If you make the game mechanics completely weightless you remove any tension. I'd rather have a game that has no builds and you just have a progress tree like HZD than one where you can just do whatever, because 9 times out of 10 there's only 1 real way to play with those games anyway.

    jungleroomx on
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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    This is the same argument that pop ups in regards to difficulty where people demand that x game have an easy mode for y reason . If you don’t like the way the game is set up it’s fine to not play it or return it or whatever.

    This whole respec thing is an excellent example. I think having a respec barrier meshes with most RPGs, other people disagree. Easy solution? Let players have a menu option to turn it on or off, or make it more/less expensive. Fast travel is another one. I can't even begin to want to try and understand why people would want fast travel off in most modern open-world games, but "just don't use" isn't the same as outright disabling it. Solution? Just give players the dang option to disable it from the menu. Something like the difficulty of Sekiro? Just give the players a dang easy mode where they've got 50% damage resistance and +50% damage or something; this isn't a fucking movie where a director is trying to focus the viewer's attention a certain way for a reason, it's a game. The point is fun and interesting experiences. Let players pick their own fun.

    This is the part I don't understand and I'm trying to see where you and jungleroom are coming from. Is it a self control thing? Like if the option is there you're going to be tempted to use it, like having a bag of chips out on the table instead of put away? Because to me it does seem the same.

    Yes, the temptation. Dark Souls isn't a rewarding series because you beat down hard thing, it's a rewarding series because it forces you to learn, and then once things click it's an incomparable feeling to games that let you just tick down a difficulty slider to get past a certain spot then tick it back up.

    Once you get to a point where a game lets you just minmax every single encounter is when making builds, leveling, getting gear, and everything that goes with it becomes completely useless and the game should just kit you out and remove all player choice.

    D3, as we mentioned before, had this problem. Which is why you only had 1-2 functional builds per class, because you could instantly minmax every single thing and the endgoals of the game did not support any more. Which is also why it's a dead game and at least two other ARPG's released around the same time are far more alive, as they put more restrictions on builds and make player choice a responsibility as opposed to a "who gives a shit?" thing. Which makes figuring out builds in those 2 games a hell of a lot more rewarding that Diablo 3, where they just basically tell you what the best build is every single patch.

    Locking down build choices doesn't actually change the number of good builds, that's nonsense. It just prevents you from picking the good one once you find out what it is.

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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited January 2021
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    This is the same argument that pop ups in regards to difficulty where people demand that x game have an easy mode for y reason . If you don’t like the way the game is set up it’s fine to not play it or return it or whatever.

    This whole respec thing is an excellent example. I think having a respec barrier meshes with most RPGs, other people disagree. Easy solution? Let players have a menu option to turn it on or off, or make it more/less expensive. Fast travel is another one. I can't even begin to want to try and understand why people would want fast travel off in most modern open-world games, but "just don't use" isn't the same as outright disabling it. Solution? Just give players the dang option to disable it from the menu. Something like the difficulty of Sekiro? Just give the players a dang easy mode where they've got 50% damage resistance and +50% damage or something; this isn't a fucking movie where a director is trying to focus the viewer's attention a certain way for a reason, it's a game. The point is fun and interesting experiences. Let players pick their own fun.

    This is the part I don't understand and I'm trying to see where you and jungleroom are coming from. Is it a self control thing? Like if the option is there you're going to be tempted to use it, like having a bag of chips out on the table instead of put away? Because to me it does seem the same.

    Yes, the temptation. Dark Souls isn't a rewarding series because you beat down hard thing, it's a rewarding series because it forces you to learn, and then once things click it's an incomparable feeling to games that let you just tick down a difficulty slider to get past a certain spot then tick it back up.

    Once you get to a point where a game lets you just minmax every single encounter is when making builds, leveling, getting gear, and everything that goes with it becomes completely useless and the game should just kit you out and remove all player choice.

    D3, as we mentioned before, had this problem. Which is why you only had 1-2 functional builds per class, because you could instantly minmax every single thing and the endgoals of the game did not support any more. Which is also why it's a dead game and at least two other ARPG's released around the same time are far more alive, as they put more restrictions on builds and make player choice a responsibility as opposed to a "who gives a shit?" thing. Which makes figuring out builds in those 2 games a hell of a lot more rewarding that Diablo 3, where they just basically tell you what the best build is every single patch.

    Locking down build choices doesn't actually change the number of good builds, that's nonsense. It just prevents you from picking the good one once you find out what it is.

    The other 2 ARPG's I was talking about have dozens of good builds, all of which work with all content. So a game with choices but only "the good one" build sounds like a game I wouldn't want to play anyway, because the entire skilltree would be a noob trap.

    And yes, by itself locking down respeccing doesn't make more viable builds. Good content that doesn't just scale off to infinity is probably the biggest thing which allows this. But people have found interesting mechanics in both those games, in some instances in ways the devs didn't even intend to work, because respeccing would be painful.

    jungleroomx on
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    KanaKana Registered User regular
    Its not like this is a full respec, you can't change your stats. And it's the stats that limit your perk choices.

    Like you can't just go from rifles to boxing to stealth willy nilly. You can change the skills within your specification if there's something you don't like in exchange for a pile of cash, but you're still restricted by your previous choices.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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    Handsome CostanzaHandsome Costanza Ask me about 8bitdo RIP Iwata-sanRegistered User regular
    edited January 2021
    .

    I feel bad about giving these people money

    Edit: yes I realize now that I posted in the old thread. I'm old and confused.

    Handsome Costanza on
    Nintendo Switch friend code: 7305-5583-0420. Add me!
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