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[Cyberpunk 2077] Delisted on PSN in 2020, post-final release pushed back 57 years

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    DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    edited January 2021
    Save games aren't character specific?

    THIS IS UPSETTING

    ...though mostly only because it requires I pay the slightest bit of attention
    So many games that encourage multiple playthroughs do this shit. I cannot understand how it’s not an industry standard to break up saves by character. There must be technical hurdles or resource prioritization at play. Otherwise it’s just bad/lazy design.

    One reason is every character is named V so you can't differentiate saves that way.

    But as a general prioritization thing, if you've looked achievement percentages, most players never finish their games. I've seen as low as 5%, and Cyberpunk looks to be around 30% right now. So even less than that will play through a game more than once. Then you have the fact that it's unlikely for someone to play 2 characters simultaneously where ease of flipping back and forth would be necessary. So having the current playthrough's saves sorted to the top by date is "good enough" since most players are unlikely to ever load an old character again. But if they do, it'll just be back at the top of the save list as the "current" one again.
    I actually thought about this after my post. The problem with this thinking is that it applies to replayability as a whole. If the vast majority of your audience is only going to do one playthrough, then you’re going to have a hard time justifying life paths, multiple endings, game plus modes, and the entire leveling system. It’s pretty clear the devs want people to play it more than once, even if it’s a poor investment.

    Errr what?

    None of that stuff is about replay-ability. That stuff is all hugely important to single playthroughs.

    Choices/options are MORE impactful to single playthroughs.

    DemonStacey on
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    AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    edited January 2021
    Save games can be differentiated between characters however they want, it doesn't need to be the character's name. All of this is designed, then programmed according to that design. Give each "character" an identifier that isn't surfaced to the player, build a ui that facilitates switching between them on the save menu. Display the creation date and life path on the character save selection menu so the player can tell the difference.

    It would be difficult to switch to this system now that what they have is fully integrated into everything else the game does, but doing it from scratch is easy.

    Aistan on
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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Speaking of important to single playthroughs, I wish it was easier to respec. I'm thinking about respeccing my stealth pistol build into being stealth monowire after getting the legendary one, and costing 100k to respec is a looooot. I don't understand why respec isn't just "go to your apartment and do it." I get you wouldn't want to do it mid mission, but I generally feel like these things should be easy to do, especially if you made a mistake or it isn't panning out like you hoped. And if people want to abuse it and change to something optimal before every mission, who cares? If that's how they have fun let them.

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    yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    Save games aren't character specific?

    THIS IS UPSETTING

    ...though mostly only because it requires I pay the slightest bit of attention
    So many games that encourage multiple playthroughs do this shit. I cannot understand how it’s not an industry standard to break up saves by character. There must be technical hurdles or resource prioritization at play. Otherwise it’s just bad/lazy design.

    One reason is every character is named V so you can't differentiate saves that way.

    But as a general prioritization thing, if you've looked achievement percentages, most players never finish their games. I've seen as low as 5%, and Cyberpunk looks to be around 30% right now. So even less than that will play through a game more than once. Then you have the fact that it's unlikely for someone to play 2 characters simultaneously where ease of flipping back and forth would be necessary. So having the current playthrough's saves sorted to the top by date is "good enough" since most players are unlikely to ever load an old character again. But if they do, it'll just be back at the top of the save list as the "current" one again.
    I actually thought about this after my post. The problem with this thinking is that it applies to replayability as a whole. If the vast majority of your audience is only going to do one playthrough, then you’re going to have a hard time justifying life paths, multiple endings, game plus modes, and the entire leveling system. It’s pretty clear the devs want people to play it more than once, even if it’s a poor investment.

    Errr what?

    None of that stuff is about replay-ability. That stuff is all hugely important to single playthroughs.

    Choices/options are MORE impactful to single playthroughs.
    I don’t disagree at all. But if you’re making decisions for save format based on how much of your audience will actually see additional play throughs, it makes sense to apply the same thinking to all aspects of the game.

    "I see everything twice!"


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    yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Speaking of important to single playthroughs, I wish it was easier to respec. I'm thinking about respeccing my stealth pistol build into being stealth monowire after getting the legendary one, and costing 100k to respec is a looooot. I don't understand why respec isn't just "go to your apartment and do it." I get you wouldn't want to do it mid mission, but I generally feel like these things should be easy to do, especially if you made a mistake or it isn't panning out like you hoped. And if people want to abuse it and change to something optimal before every mission, who cares? If that's how they have fun let them.
    Investing heavily into crafting makes the 100k price trivial. I will probably never have a character that doesn’t go hard into that tree.

    "I see everything twice!"


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    SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Save games aren't character specific?

    THIS IS UPSETTING

    ...though mostly only because it requires I pay the slightest bit of attention
    So many games that encourage multiple playthroughs do this shit. I cannot understand how it’s not an industry standard to break up saves by character. There must be technical hurdles or resource prioritization at play. Otherwise it’s just bad/lazy design.

    One reason is every character is named V so you can't differentiate saves that way.

    But as a general prioritization thing, if you've looked achievement percentages, most players never finish their games. I've seen as low as 5%, and Cyberpunk looks to be around 30% right now. So even less than that will play through a game more than once. Then you have the fact that it's unlikely for someone to play 2 characters simultaneously where ease of flipping back and forth would be necessary. So having the current playthrough's saves sorted to the top by date is "good enough" since most players are unlikely to ever load an old character again. But if they do, it'll just be back at the top of the save list as the "current" one again.
    I actually thought about this after my post. The problem with this thinking is that it applies to replayability as a whole. If the vast majority of your audience is only going to do one playthrough, then you’re going to have a hard time justifying life paths, multiple endings, game plus modes, and the entire leveling system. It’s pretty clear the devs want people to play it more than once, even if it’s a poor investment.

    Errr what?

    None of that stuff is about replay-ability. That stuff is all hugely important to single playthroughs.

    Choices/options are MORE impactful to single playthroughs.
    I don’t disagree at all. But if you’re making decisions for save format based on how much of your audience will actually see additional play throughs, it makes sense to apply the same thinking to all aspects of the game.

    The different character save games are differentiated by life path choice funnily enough.

    And to be clear, I don't think what they have is good, I was just pointing out reasons why they may have thought what they have was sufficient to get the game out the door.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
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    DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    Save games aren't character specific?

    THIS IS UPSETTING

    ...though mostly only because it requires I pay the slightest bit of attention
    So many games that encourage multiple playthroughs do this shit. I cannot understand how it’s not an industry standard to break up saves by character. There must be technical hurdles or resource prioritization at play. Otherwise it’s just bad/lazy design.

    One reason is every character is named V so you can't differentiate saves that way.

    But as a general prioritization thing, if you've looked achievement percentages, most players never finish their games. I've seen as low as 5%, and Cyberpunk looks to be around 30% right now. So even less than that will play through a game more than once. Then you have the fact that it's unlikely for someone to play 2 characters simultaneously where ease of flipping back and forth would be necessary. So having the current playthrough's saves sorted to the top by date is "good enough" since most players are unlikely to ever load an old character again. But if they do, it'll just be back at the top of the save list as the "current" one again.
    I actually thought about this after my post. The problem with this thinking is that it applies to replayability as a whole. If the vast majority of your audience is only going to do one playthrough, then you’re going to have a hard time justifying life paths, multiple endings, game plus modes, and the entire leveling system. It’s pretty clear the devs want people to play it more than once, even if it’s a poor investment.

    Errr what?

    None of that stuff is about replay-ability. That stuff is all hugely important to single playthroughs.

    Choices/options are MORE impactful to single playthroughs.
    I don’t disagree at all. But if you’re making decisions for save format based on how much of your audience will actually see additional play throughs, it makes sense to apply the same thinking to all aspects of the game.

    That statement only makes sense if the point of those things is multiple playthroughs though. Which they aren't. So saying it at all in that conversation still doesn't make sense.

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    urahonkyurahonky Cynical Old Man Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Speaking of important to single playthroughs, I wish it was easier to respec. I'm thinking about respeccing my stealth pistol build into being stealth monowire after getting the legendary one, and costing 100k to respec is a looooot. I don't understand why respec isn't just "go to your apartment and do it." I get you wouldn't want to do it mid mission, but I generally feel like these things should be easy to do, especially if you made a mistake or it isn't panning out like you hoped. And if people want to abuse it and change to something optimal before every mission, who cares? If that's how they have fun let them.
    Investing heavily into crafting makes the 100k price trivial. I will probably never have a character that doesn’t go hard into that tree.

    That's funny because I felt like that tree was a complete and utter waste of points in my playthrough.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    It's good if you like Iconics or Tech weapons. There's also a lot of tech interactables in the game, which is a nice bonus

    Honestly, with some space from the game, i've ended up on the side of i really dont like it's talent/perk system at all. I think the only thing i do like form it are the convo options unlocking from ceartin stat breakpoints, but that's hardly an rpg breakthrough

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Speaking of important to single playthroughs, I wish it was easier to respec. I'm thinking about respeccing my stealth pistol build into being stealth monowire after getting the legendary one, and costing 100k to respec is a looooot. I don't understand why respec isn't just "go to your apartment and do it." I get you wouldn't want to do it mid mission, but I generally feel like these things should be easy to do, especially if you made a mistake or it isn't panning out like you hoped. And if people want to abuse it and change to something optimal before every mission, who cares? If that's how they have fun let them.
    Investing heavily into crafting makes the 100k price trivial. I will probably never have a character that doesn’t go hard into that tree.

    I mean sure but you shouldn't have to. I just learned the "buy shit from vending machines and make sniper rifles" trick so I've been grinding that out and doing some side quests. The initial point still stands though. Just make it easy. I don't see the point of gating it.

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    ChanceChance Registered User regular
    I skipped a bunch of the above discussion, but my fix for wishing a save game identified which character of mine it represents is The Car.

    Choose a car (or bike) that epitomizes the character build to you, and when you feel like it's time to swap over to another build, make a save game while staring at the car centered on screen.

    My Hacker is the black Caliburn, my Gunslinger is the Type-66 Cthulhu, et cetera.

    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
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    BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    Throwing knives is about useless outside of being cool it seems.

    Damage is good, but silenced stuff is better (or quickhacks), and you don't get the knife back. So you either have to craft/carry a ton of them, or keep buying more.

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    ChanceChance Registered User regular
    edited January 2021
    Bigity wrote: »
    Throwing knives is about useless outside of being cool it seems.

    Damage is good, but silenced stuff is better (or quickhacks), and you don't get the knife back. So you either have to craft/carry a ton of them, or keep buying more.

    Throwing knives, like the "grapple" concept, are things that... we've found the bones of. But they're not living. ...not yet. Maybe in a future patch... but if you're going ranged stealth, you want a silenced pistol.

    I mean the throwing knives system must just be absent because as-is is... laughable.

    Also it just occurred to me that perhaps not everyone knows


    This Neat Trick For Stealing Any Car You Want
    no matter your spec!


    This only works on cars in traffic, so you can't steal the Caliburn you find parked - they have to have an NPC in them. When the car is stopped at a light (or walk into its path and start walking backwards so it doesn't just drive over you to force it to stop). fire a single shot from any weapon into the windshield. The driver and passenger(s) will bail, and you can just hop in.

    Note: shooting this car does damage to it, so don't use your shotgun if you want it to last. Using a silenced weapon usually means even if cops are nearby they won't notice or care.

    Chance on
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
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    Pixelated PixiePixelated Pixie They/Them Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Speaking of important to single playthroughs, I wish it was easier to respec. I'm thinking about respeccing my stealth pistol build into being stealth monowire after getting the legendary one, and costing 100k to respec is a looooot. I don't understand why respec isn't just "go to your apartment and do it." I get you wouldn't want to do it mid mission, but I generally feel like these things should be easy to do, especially if you made a mistake or it isn't panning out like you hoped. And if people want to abuse it and change to something optimal before every mission, who cares? If that's how they have fun let them.
    Investing heavily into crafting makes the 100k price trivial. I will probably never have a character that doesn’t go hard into that tree.

    I mean sure but you shouldn't have to. I just learned the "buy shit from vending machines and make sniper rifles" trick so I've been grinding that out and doing some side quests. The initial point still stands though. Just make it easy. I don't see the point of gating it.

    If you're on PC, you can just respec with a save editor.

    ~~ Pixie on Steam ~~
    ironzerg wrote: »
    Chipmunks are like nature's nipple clamps, I guess?
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    dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    edited January 2021
    I mean, in an RPG, the tabletop kind, you could totally make a character that specialised in throwing poison knives from stealth. It's probably not exactly uncommon.

    It's also never been good, in any system, ever, since the dawn of RPG. But by god, you can get you your ninja stars or whatever! You attack! You deal... 1 damage! The enemy is poisoned, they will take lethal damage in 1 round!

    Bob just shot 'em with a silenced rifle. Never mind. Oh, you're out of knives now. Hope you had backup plans!

    Edit: Like, fuck, I just made 12 dudes explode from across the street, behind a building, while eating a pizza, the fuck you doing with basic-ass knives? But as Blade said, "some motherfuckers always gotta ice skate uphill..."

    Double edit: I think a lot of the otherwise "weird" choices are because it's a video game translation of a TTRPG. D&D doesn't have respecs; D&D video games don't really have respecs, or if they do they're nontrivial. Same deal here, so there's a range of non-optimal choices, same as there are in tabletop, since maybe you think it's cool to use a rapier, man! Who cares if a double-bladed axe does "more damage", that's not what your character's into, you know?

    dporowski on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Does anyone have a suggestion for my odd driving behavior bug, btw?

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    HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Never ran into that one myself. I made it through the game with the only two quest breaking bugs being objectives that spawned 10ish meters underground to which the solution was apparently keep loading earlier saves in the hopes that it wouldn't break next time.

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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2021-01-16/cyberpunk-2077-what-caused-the-video-game-s-disastrous-rollout?__twitter_impression=true
    Jason Schreier is here to lay down some facts. Interestingly, this sounds like some of the stuff that went wrong with Halo 2 at certain points.

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2021
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Speaking of important to single playthroughs, I wish it was easier to respec. I'm thinking about respeccing my stealth pistol build into being stealth monowire after getting the legendary one, and costing 100k to respec is a looooot. I don't understand why respec isn't just "go to your apartment and do it." I get you wouldn't want to do it mid mission, but I generally feel like these things should be easy to do, especially if you made a mistake or it isn't panning out like you hoped. And if people want to abuse it and change to something optimal before every mission, who cares? If that's how they have fun let them.
    Investing heavily into crafting makes the 100k price trivial. I will probably never have a character that doesn’t go hard into that tree.

    I mean sure but you shouldn't have to. I just learned the "buy shit from vending machines and make sniper rifles" trick so I've been grinding that out and doing some side quests. The initial point still stands though. Just make it easy. I don't see the point of gating it.

    If you're on PC, you can just respec with a save editor.

    I am, thank you. I thought about looking into some console commands but this seems easier.

    I also earned the 100k and then I found a clothing mod that increases your crit damage by 30% for about the same amount and then I thought "Well that seems good" so I have to start over!
    dporowski wrote: »
    Double edit: I think a lot of the otherwise "weird" choices are because it's a video game translation of a TTRPG. D&D doesn't have respecs; D&D video games don't really have respecs, or if they do they're nontrivial. Same deal here, so there's a range of non-optimal choices, same as there are in tabletop, since maybe you think it's cool to use a rapier, man! Who cares if a double-bladed axe does "more damage", that's not what your character's into, you know?

    D&D has unlimited free respecs. It's called "talk to your DM." Just last campaign I was trying out a warlock, didn't really like it a few sessions in and we talked and I reclassed. No big deal. World of Warcraft has respecs, the last time I checked the gold cost for it was basically trivial? I haven't played since like the second expansion. Lots of games offer it.

    It's not necessarily about being able to metagame or min max, sometimes you might realize "you know I'm a little bored just running in and shooting maybe I'd rather do stealthing or melee." Some percentage of players will just get frustrated and stop playing, which like I guess you got their money already who cares but they probably designed the game so people would have fun.

    ChaosHat on
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Allowing unlimited respecs has an equally bad but different problem.

    It means every choice you make in creating your character has zero wieght and means nothing.

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Allowing unlimited respecs has an equally bad but different problem.

    It means every choice you make in creating your character has zero wieght and means nothing.

    If you don't want to respec, you can just not. The problem is solved.

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    AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    Allowing unlimited respecs has an equally bad but different problem.

    It means every choice you make in creating your character has zero wieght and means nothing.

    I wouldn't say that's an equal problem, and puts too much importance on permanent decisions. Sure, players will optimize the fun out of anything if you let them, but even a small barrier like making them go to a specific location to do it will probably stop most people from changing up their playstyle for every encounter. More likely someone will play some of the game, realize they don't like a thing and change it, and then once they are happy with their setup they'll stick with it.

    It also doesn't work if there are choices that are just worse than others objectively, hidden by poor ui/tooltips or affected by bugs. I made some bad choices with my selections and would liked to have changed them but the price was out of my range for my entire playthrough because I wasn't exploiting crafting loops.

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    Allowing unlimited respecs has an equally bad but different problem.

    It means every choice you make in creating your character has zero wieght and means nothing.

    I wouldn't say that's an equal problem, and puts too much importance on permanent decisions. Sure, players will optimize the fun out of anything if you let them, but even a small barrier like making them go to a specific location to do it will probably stop most people from changing up their playstyle for every encounter. More likely someone will play some of the game, realize they don't like a thing and change it, and then once they are happy with their setup they'll stick with it.

    It also doesn't work if there are choices that are just worse than others objectively, hidden by poor ui/tooltips or affected by bugs. I made some bad choices with my selections and would liked to have changed them but the price was out of my range for my entire playthrough because I wasn't exploiting crafting loops.

    This exactly. I'm not advocating for "at any point just go into the character menu and change all your shit" I'm talking about "you can respec for free at anytime in V's apartment." Sometimes I think it would be cool to go all in on quickhacking but then I also think it would be boring to just tab and click at shit. If I didn't like it, I would probably just stop playing than restart the 10 hours or whatever of figuring it out.

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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    I needed a respec because I picked the knife throwing skill thinking I'd just have unlimited stealth knives to throw and it was a piece of shit skill in a game with finite amount of skill points.

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    jdarksunjdarksun Struggler VARegistered User regular
    Allowing unlimited respecs has an equally bad but different problem.

    It means every choice you make in creating your character has zero wieght and means nothing.
    This is cyberpunk, why shouldn't we be able to erase our memories and install new ones at will?

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    SimpsoniaSimpsonia Registered User regular
    So I finished all of the endings and wanted to some up my thoughts here.
    I'll start with my least favorite: V, the Night City Legend who turns her back on everyone in her life to go on one last heist in space.

    In the middle are the Arasaka endings, because I think they fit well with the narrative theme of Cyberpunk.

    Lastly, my cannon ending, which is a bit of a narrative. You see, V's dream of becoming a Night City legend died with Jackie. Something broke within V on that day. She was a shell of her former self, feeling responsible for her best friend's death. The only reason she went on, is that she felt she owed it to Jackie. She owed it to Jackie to survive. What survival meant, she had no idea, but she had to do it. She scrapped and scraped, and made a few new friends, but never really getting too close to them, until Judy. V saw herself in Judy, alone and broken after loss too. And they could share that burden together, for a time at least. But then came V's biggest decision yet. She was dying due to the asshole in her head. An asshole she had gotten a bit too close to, started to empathize with, another broken compatriot just like her. V couldn't risk anyone else, but she couldn't just throw the chance away, that would be an insult to Jackie. She was going to do it by herself. She was going to summon all of the anger and rage she and Johnny had left and walk in the front door, if she made it, she made it. If not, well then at least nobody else died for her.

    V did make it to Mikoshi, but fate is a fickle mistress. After all of that fighting, all of that struggle, the only choices she had were shit ones. True to her word to Johnny in a run down motel, she didn't want anyone else to die for her. She'd give that asshole her body so that he could live on, and she'd still honor her promise to Jackie to live on, in a way. And so V crossed that bridge into the ether. Johnny was humbled by the sacrifice, his anger and rage sapped from him. He couldn't just throw away the gift that was given to him. Just like V before him, he had to live on. He didn't exactly know how, but he'd take his time and figure it out and wouldn't waste it in a tantrum like he did before.

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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited January 2021
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Allowing unlimited respecs has an equally bad but different problem.

    It means every choice you make in creating your character has zero wieght and means nothing.

    If you don't want to respec, you can just not. The problem is solved.

    Nah man.

    D3 has zero replayability and the ease of respec is one of the issues.

    It's not a good system to me. It feels cheap and shallow. It shouldn't be as obtuse or arbitrary as it is right now but ugh.

    And actually making decisions with regards to my character and having it turn out well is a gameplay aspect I enjoy. Yeah sure you can "just ignore it", but it doesn't have the same feeling. It's the reason there are ironman modes for games: People want meaningful decisions in their games that can't just be immediately save-scummed or respec'd away.

    jungleroomx on
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    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Having a respec option in RPG games is as important as having some kind of barrier to it. If there's no barrier, there is no character, just a pile of stats you rearrange to the best at whatever your doing next. Having even a mild barrier makes the player actually commit to a skillset and actually put some value in it, instead of just dropping a given skill the instant they find out it isn't perfect for min-maxing or something.

    Further, a respec barrier attaches the skills to the world when done decently. In the case of Cyberpunk, you have to go to somebody and pay them for a respec, like they're rebuilding you. Without that, it's just some dials on a character, abstract and with no footing in the setting.

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Allowing unlimited respecs has an equally bad but different problem.

    It means every choice you make in creating your character has zero wieght and means nothing.

    If you don't want to respec, you can just not. The problem is solved.

    Nah man.

    D3 has zero replayability and the ease of respec is one of the issues.

    It's not a good system to me. It feels cheap and shallow. It shouldn't be as obtuse or arbitrary as it is right now but ugh.

    And actually making decisions with regards to my character and having it turn out well is a gameplay aspect I enjoy. Yeah sure you can "just ignore it", but it doesn't have the same feeling. It's the reason there are ironman modes for games: People want meaningful decisions in their games that can't just be immediately save-scummed or respec'd away.

    What? I've played a lot of Diablo 3, with multiple classes, and I like starting over when I get the itch for a new season. There's no way Diablo "Yeah let me level a second Amazon so I can use this Buriza I found sucks that I was leveling for Lightning Fury" 2 was better (in that specific regard). Cyberpunk will always have much higher replayability than any Diablo game (unless they drastically change the formula) because even if you change classes or specs you're still just pushing buttons and making numbers bigger. You can replay Cyberpunk and make different plot choices, change your gender, pick a different romance, do whatever, and have a different experience even if you chose to use the exact same build.

    That shit was fine when I was in middle or high school and didn't have to do fuck all else. I have a wife and kid and a job now and Cyberpunk is probably going to be at least 60 hours and I may not have time for a replay before the next thing comes out. Let me mine it for maximum fun on the first playthrough, and everyone who wants to play it a dozen times can still do that. You can play an iron man save in any game you want to if you just abide by the rules. If you're worried nobody will be impressed by your personal glory because you can't back it up with proof because there's no official way to do it, stream it on twitch. People do Nuzlocke runs in Pokemon. You can arbitrarily make games harder if you want to. It's not that hard to opt to do it harder.

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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    If you're worried nobody will be impressed by your personal glory because you can't back it up with proof

    Ahh got it, that's the conversation you want.

    Have a nice day.

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Having a respec option in RPG games is as important as having some kind of barrier to it. If there's no barrier, there is no character, just a pile of stats you rearrange to the best at whatever your doing next. Having even a mild barrier makes the player actually commit to a skillset and actually put some value in it, instead of just dropping a given skill the instant they find out it isn't perfect for min-maxing or something.

    Further, a respec barrier attaches the skills to the world when done decently. In the case of Cyberpunk, you have to go to somebody and pay them for a respec, like they're rebuilding you. Without that, it's just some dials on a character, abstract and with no footing in the setting.

    A character is not the sum of your stats and is the least interesting thing about your character. It's a role playing game. In D&D, there are a fuckton of people who play an elven archer, or a human wizard, with the exact same stat spread on a standard array. There will be lots of people who have a similar character build. There will be extremely few people who chose the same physical look and build, made the same character choices and did everything in the exact same order you did. The stories your characters have are different, even though you may have the exact same stats.

    Show me a character sheet and I can tell you what your character is good at, but not how they acted, not their temperament, or the adventures they went on. When you swap stories with other people, are you going to tell them the intricate path you wove through the perks and upgrades? Or are you going to tell them about the character choices you made and the story points that resonated with you?

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    AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    Having a respec option in RPG games is as important as having some kind of barrier to it. If there's no barrier, there is no character, just a pile of stats you rearrange to the best at whatever your doing next. Having even a mild barrier makes the player actually commit to a skillset and actually put some value in it, instead of just dropping a given skill the instant they find out it isn't perfect for min-maxing or something.

    Further, a respec barrier attaches the skills to the world when done decently. In the case of Cyberpunk, you have to go to somebody and pay them for a respec, like they're rebuilding you. Without that, it's just some dials on a character, abstract and with no footing in the setting.

    And as currently stands it's way too expensive, enough to make it functionally not present at all unless you want to exploit your way towards affording it.

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    If you're worried nobody will be impressed by your personal glory because you can't back it up with proof

    Ahh got it, that's the conversation you want.

    Have a nice day.

    Again, what prevents you from running an iron man mode or no respec challenge on your own if you want to?

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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    I think philosophical differences about respec should be put aside by CDPR, because they should realize their game is too buggy, sloppy, and plain unfinished to make respec so expensive.

    smCQ5WE.jpg
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    It's also why having toggles/difficulty modes is nice. Sometimes I want a more 'sim' like experience with roleplay, and sometimes I wanna break the game. I had this conversation with my brothers about having to go back to the ripper docs everytime you wanna try a new cyberware (or worse, to slot one you already had before). They even acknowledge it's annoying by not charging you to slot stuff you already installed before, so why make me go all the way to a doc just to change between a hacking build back to my beserker build? I have both on one character...

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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    If you're worried nobody will be impressed by your personal glory because you can't back it up with proof

    Ahh got it, that's the conversation you want.

    Have a nice day.

    Again, what prevents you from running an iron man mode or no respec challenge on your own if you want to?

    Personal glory, obviously.

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    @jungleroomx Sure, be snarky, but I'm legitimately trying to understand the difference here.

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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    jungleroomx Sure, be snarky, but I'm legitimately trying to understand the difference here.

    It's already been said by me and someone else.

    Not sure what else to tell you.

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    dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Speaking of important to single playthroughs, I wish it was easier to respec. I'm thinking about respeccing my stealth pistol build into being stealth monowire after getting the legendary one, and costing 100k to respec is a looooot. I don't understand why respec isn't just "go to your apartment and do it." I get you wouldn't want to do it mid mission, but I generally feel like these things should be easy to do, especially if you made a mistake or it isn't panning out like you hoped. And if people want to abuse it and change to something optimal before every mission, who cares? If that's how they have fun let them.
    Investing heavily into crafting makes the 100k price trivial. I will probably never have a character that doesn’t go hard into that tree.

    I mean sure but you shouldn't have to. I just learned the "buy shit from vending machines and make sniper rifles" trick so I've been grinding that out and doing some side quests. The initial point still stands though. Just make it easy. I don't see the point of gating it.

    If you're on PC, you can just respec with a save editor.

    I am, thank you. I thought about looking into some console commands but this seems easier.

    I also earned the 100k and then I found a clothing mod that increases your crit damage by 30% for about the same amount and then I thought "Well that seems good" so I have to start over!
    dporowski wrote: »
    Double edit: I think a lot of the otherwise "weird" choices are because it's a video game translation of a TTRPG. D&D doesn't have respecs; D&D video games don't really have respecs, or if they do they're nontrivial. Same deal here, so there's a range of non-optimal choices, same as there are in tabletop, since maybe you think it's cool to use a rapier, man! Who cares if a double-bladed axe does "more damage", that's not what your character's into, you know?

    D&D has unlimited free respecs. It's called "talk to your DM." Just last campaign I was trying out a warlock, didn't really like it a few sessions in and we talked and I reclassed. No big deal. World of Warcraft has respecs, the last time I checked the gold cost for it was basically trivial? I haven't played since like the second expansion. Lots of games offer it.

    It's not necessarily about being able to metagame or min max, sometimes you might realize "you know I'm a little bored just running in and shooting maybe I'd rather do stealthing or melee." Some percentage of players will just get frustrated and stop playing, which like I guess you got their money already who cares but they probably designed the game so people would have fun.

    Er, when you say "reclass", you mean "make a new character"? 'Cause I gotta tell you, that's how it works in every game I've played ever. You made a character. Bobby is a warlock. If you want a not-warlock, time to say bye to Bobby, and make Bobby 2.0.

    House rules is house rules, and play like you like, right, but D&D, the game system, has no concept of respec. Cyberpunk the RPG system also has no concept of respec, so adding a mechanism into the video game version to do so is a concession to "it's not a TTRPG", but like, the idea is "this is a person, with particular skills and traits and experience developed over time", and leaving that fairly static is part of the whole thing.

    You're not supposed to be able to tune your build to a given encounter, or optimise for a quest, or have the best solution at all times. If you're worried about lots of combat, and you're a squishy hacker, the answer is "well, get creative" and not "just go make a not-hacker for a bit".

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited January 2021
    50k is a reasonable price. It's only slightly higher than a leg cyberware and isn't a price you can pump out like its nothing. Baffled they went with 100k.

    Insinuating that people who want respecs or don't want easy respecs have (insert personality issue that is convenient for my argument here) is disingenuous and helps nobody. It certainly doesn't help your argument because when you start doing that people tune out of the rest of what you say.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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