We need to talk about where Elden Ring fits into the From pantheon in terms of quality
I’m about to finish my first run and for me it’s as good as Bloodborne and may be better
At the bottom of the heap of the ones I’ve actually played, personally. (I skipped DS2 and DS3).
I don’t like open world games much at all. Personally, all the best parts of Elden Ring are the souls elements, and all the worst parts are the open world elements, and it made the game feel rote and boring in a way no previous Souls game had ever felt for me.
I legitimately am confounded by that take. I don’t think it’s illegitimate or invalid or anything, I just don’t get it. My problem with most open world games is that you’re just running to symbols on a map and doing the same activity 20 times until you’ve done all the symbols on the map.
Elden Ring is not that. You can just ride in any direction and find something genuinely new, or some beautiful vista, or an NPC whose life you can ruin by *checks notes* doing their quest.
For me it’s everything I love about open world games without anything I hate about them.
I legitimately am confounded by that take. I don’t think it’s illegitimate or invalid or anything, I just don’t get it. My problem with most open world games is that you’re just running to symbols on a map and doing the same activity 20 times until you’ve done all the symbols on the map.
Elden Ring is not that. You can just ride in any direction and find something genuinely new, or some beautiful vista, or an NPC whose life you can ruin by *checks notes* doing their quest.
For me it’s everything I love about open world games without anything I hate about them.
Everything is on the map so it’s just a different checklist of chapel, ruin, mine, catacomb and as the game goes on it’s going to be the same or similar dragon, or knight, or giant, or whatever that you need to kill in the same way.
The game is too long and recycled content to pad out the length, which given its size and length was the only sane way to do it.
I would have preferred a shorter, tighter game with less or no recycled content.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Dark Souls 3
I completely disagree with the assertion that any of the content is recycled. The layout of every catacomb is different, the layout of every mine is different, the bosses are actually different, it's simply an untrue statement to say that it's all the same. Using a pool of map elements to make new areas is not recycling content.
You may not like what's there, and that's fine, art is subjective, but trying to argue that it's all the same stuff copy-pasted is silly.
They’re different in the way Chalice Dungeons were different, and the bosses are pretty much all beefed up enemies that appear elsewhere (which is something of a testament to a lot of normal enemies still having deep move sets)
I completely disagree with the assertion that any of the content is recycled. The layout of every catacomb is different, the layout of every mine is different, the bosses are actually different, it's simply an untrue statement to say that it's all the same. Using a pool of map elements to make new areas is not recycling content.
You may not like what's there, and that's fine, art is subjective, but trying to argue that it's all the same stuff copy-pasted is silly.
they reused a lot of monster assets, especially turning mini-bosses into regular enemies and in certain areas towards the end of the game it feels incredibly copy/paste
haligtree is probably the worst offender in this case. is there even one single new monster type in that zone, aside from a the last boss?
I completely disagree with the assertion that any of the content is recycled. The layout of every catacomb is different, the layout of every mine is different, the bosses are actually different, it's simply an untrue statement to say that it's all the same. Using a pool of map elements to make new areas is not recycling content.
You may not like what's there, and that's fine, art is subjective, but trying to argue that it's all the same stuff copy-pasted is silly.
You fight the same dragon basically 20 times with the color changing on their breath weapon.
Some bosses you fight are literally the same boss with maybe a palette swap but identical move sets. You fight the same boss many, many times. Sometimes only the arena changes. Sometimes they put bosses in arenas they were never meant to fight in.
I completely disagree with the assertion that any of the content is recycled. The layout of every catacomb is different, the layout of every mine is different, the bosses are actually different, it's simply an untrue statement to say that it's all the same. Using a pool of map elements to make new areas is not recycling content.
You may not like what's there, and that's fine, art is subjective, but trying to argue that it's all the same stuff copy-pasted is silly.
You fight the same dragon basically 20 times with the color changing on their breath weapon.
Some bosses you fight are literally the same boss with maybe a palette swap but identical move sets. You fight the same boss many, many times. Sometimes only the arena changes. Sometimes they put bosses in arenas they were never meant to fight in.
I mean if you're gonna use literally in a way that is literally wrong then there's no point to this discussion
I want to further add - I don't think FromSoft was wrong on the heavy asset reuse (you could perhaps far more generously call it "asset stretching"). A game of Elden Ring's size and volume it's completely unrealistic to expect something new everywhere. There are perfectly acceptable lore reasons for all of the monster re-use in the areas you find them (except maybe those fucking multi-arm ghoul ghost things? what was even their deal).
To me, personally, it just wore thin towards hour 150+ on the first playthrough. I've already fought all of these things before, especially the boss-refights with nothing new added to their kits in between encounters.
I think there's a ton of asset and design reuse, but... in a good way?
You walk into a situation which feels vaguely familiar, plays on expectations that have been set up prior, and then there's a minor tweak that makes it feel interesting and fresh. It trains you how to deal with various situations, and then throws variations on that at you with different, surprising curveballs.
It establishes a design vocabulary, and then tells different stories with it.
I completely disagree with the assertion that any of the content is recycled. The layout of every catacomb is different, the layout of every mine is different, the bosses are actually different, it's simply an untrue statement to say that it's all the same. Using a pool of map elements to make new areas is not recycling content.
You may not like what's there, and that's fine, art is subjective, but trying to argue that it's all the same stuff copy-pasted is silly.
You fight the same dragon basically 20 times with the color changing on their breath weapon.
Some bosses you fight are literally the same boss with maybe a palette swap but identical move sets. You fight the same boss many, many times. Sometimes only the arena changes. Sometimes they put bosses in arenas they were never meant to fight in.
Ulcerated Tree Spirits straight up breaking every indoor area they're fought in is really disappointing. Also you fight it like six times?
I'm with Inquisitor in that I wish Elden Ring had been a tighter experience. The build variety is amazing, but as someone who plays these games with a "see everything I can" mindset, I burned out on Elden Ring. I haven't beaten it yet, but I'm also not terribly motivated to do so.
Context: I've beaten Fire Giant but haven't moved past him and I'm at the grace for Malenia. Nearing the end, I went ahead and looked up what I might have missed and I had cleared every side area expect for one Hero's Grave. Game is big. But I don't think I fought any one side boss less than four times. And I've fought duplicates of "main" bosses a couple times too.
I completely disagree with the assertion that any of the content is recycled. The layout of every catacomb is different, the layout of every mine is different, the bosses are actually different, it's simply an untrue statement to say that it's all the same. Using a pool of map elements to make new areas is not recycling content.
You may not like what's there, and that's fine, art is subjective, but trying to argue that it's all the same stuff copy-pasted is silly.
You fight the same dragon basically 20 times with the color changing on their breath weapon.
Some bosses you fight are literally the same boss with maybe a palette swap but identical move sets. You fight the same boss many, many times. Sometimes only the arena changes. Sometimes they put bosses in arenas they were never meant to fight in.
I mean if you're gonna use literally in a way that is literally wrong then there's no point to this discussion
What? You do fight literally the same boss. The ulcerated tree boss fights are the same boss fights. The Tree Sentinels are the same boss fights. Pretty sure their moveset doesn’t change and there are other examples.
Due to the size of the game I haven’t ran the numbers myself but I have heard it said the game has 150-200 boss fights (depending on what you count as a boss) and roughly 10 of them are unique (aka you can fight them only once).
I completely disagree with the assertion that any of the content is recycled. The layout of every catacomb is different, the layout of every mine is different, the bosses are actually different, it's simply an untrue statement to say that it's all the same. Using a pool of map elements to make new areas is not recycling content.
You may not like what's there, and that's fine, art is subjective, but trying to argue that it's all the same stuff copy-pasted is silly.
You fight the same dragon basically 20 times with the color changing on their breath weapon.
Some bosses you fight are literally the same boss with maybe a palette swap but identical move sets. You fight the same boss many, many times. Sometimes only the arena changes. Sometimes they put bosses in arenas they were never meant to fight in.
I mean if you're gonna use literally in a way that is literally wrong then there's no point to this discussion
but its true?
you refight ulcerated tree spirits and erdtree avatars repeatedly, you refight bell-bearing hunter (this one i give a pass to because you can contextualize it as getting invaded by the same person repeatedly) x4 and then i believe elemer has the exact same moveset, you fight astel twice (???).
you fight 4 magma wyrms (i can't remember if the gael tunnel one has a restricted moveset where it doesn't stand up), you fight 3 falling star beasts (i know the one that isn't fully grown doesn't use the gravity attacks, wow totally new fight), there are 4 death birds and 4 death rite birds and i couldn't tell you the difference between a death bird and a death rite bird's moveset (the death rite bird has the frostbite flame effect on some attacks?), two ancestor beasts, you refight the black blade kindred and also its the axe&sword valiant gargoyle moveset, 3x black knife assassin movesets,
a bunch of refights where its the same boss but with non-boss adds, or now you fight two bosses you've already fought before (godskin duo gets a pass, all of the random ones in caves and catacombs suck, especially the crystallians)
margit is just the first phase of morgott, godefroy is just the first phase of godrick, mogh is just the first phase of mogh (lord of blood), you fight godfrey twice although i can't tell you if the spirit form version has the same moveset as the actual boss phase 1 because it died so fast
a bunch of night cavalry where they are using a different weapon that changes their moveset in ways i couldn't tell you, a bunch of dragons where the difference is their breath attack, you refight the tibia mariner a few times, i couldn't tell you if the only difference between niall and o'neil is what soldiers they summon, but it certainly felt that way,
not all of this re-use is a problem but some of these fights aren't worth using, let alone re-using
And to be fair, and as I noted earlier, there is absolutely no way they could have made a game the size and scope of Elden Ring without reusing and recycling a ton of content.
It’s the only remotely sane way to go about it.
Personally though, I don’t really want or need a game with such a large size or scope, I don’t need a game that takes me 120+ hours to beat.
I’d prefer a game that is shorter, and focused, and reused things less often because it didn’t need to.
This is why Elden Ring is at the bottom of MY ranking of Souls games. Please keep in mind this is no “Elden Rings is objectively bad” type of nonsense. It’s simply why it’s not my type of game and why I don’t like it as much as other entries in the series.
(Which, is unfortunate for me because based on sales alone they would be fools not to make an Elden Ring 2).
Maybe with the hindsight of how Elden Ring made you feel you can fight the urge to MUST DO EVERYTHING and stick to the legacy dungeons? I didn't quite burn out but I think I'll try to adjust how I approach the sequel.
i mean that's how i got through the post-capitol stuff. let me just run thru these zones and ignore the side stuff
but even with that i still finished the game feeling like, idk, give me like 20-25% less game and it'd be fantastic.
Maybe with the hindsight of how Elden Ring made you feel you can fight the urge to MUST DO EVERYTHING and stick to the legacy dungeons? I didn't quite burn out but I think I'll try to adjust how I approach the sequel.
Yeah, for an Elden Ring 2 that's an approach I might take, though you might end up considerably below the "power curve" as a result. Of course, doing most of the things in Elden Ring 1 put me well above the power curve for the last 1/3rd of the game, which made most of that section fall rather flat as the difficulty was basically gone at that point.
That's another issue I personally had with the size and scope of Elden Ring. You take a series with balance historically as wonky as Dark Souls, and multiply that across the length and item variety of Elden Ring, and you end up with WILD power disparity between builds which makes any kind of game balance next to impossible to achieve with the systems the game has in place.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
which game has the best barefoot 105lb woman that murders you repeatedly though?
I normally hate open world games but Elden ring is the exception for me. Now granted im just at Atlas Plateau which is apparently not even anywhere near as far through the game as I thought, but I still feel a sense of wonder and discovery everywhere I am going. I am noticing repeated enemies but this is normal for souls games - DS1 reuses a ton of earlier bosses, Sekiro reuses almost everyone except a few big fights, DS2 reuses fights like smelter demon and the dragonriders. This ain’t new at all, just Elden ring is BIGGER so you notice it more.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
demon ruins/lost izalith are bad and very clearly where they ran out of time/money, because the asset reuse doesn't really happen at any other point except for pinwheels (lmao)
also the tree avatars are literally the asylum demon from dark souls with maybe 1 or 2 new attacks? (don't remember if the 2nd asylum demon could do the laser barrage)
though honestly i wouldn't have complained if they'd included more reskinned bosses from previous games. if like every tree avatar was a different throwback boss that woulda been neat
but yeah like. they absolutely reuse boss battles in this game all the time. multiple magma wyrms, tree spirits, tree avatars, tree sentinels, godskin apostles, dragonkin soldiers, dragons, crystallians, trolls, burial watchdogs, crucible knights, misbegotten warriors, black knife assassins, commanders, demihuman queens, tibia mariners, gargoyles, and more
it's uncommon for fights to be 100% copy-pastes, but it does happen, and frequently the differences are pretty minor, like having one fight in an open space vs. another fight in a cramped space, or throwing two guys at you at once, or changing the status effect the boss inflicts. sometimes bosses just become normal enemies in a later game area, or vice-versa. I don't blame 'em for it because as has been said, it'd be impossible to build a game of this scope without reusing stuff, but i do get how it'd hurt your enjoyment of it. Like, the very first thing I did in the game was open up the side corridor in the starting area, and was delighted that i found a weird optional zone with a chariot deathtrap. That got a lot less exciting when I realized that "chariot deathtrap" was just one of the types of dungeons that would repeat over and over throughout the game. Again, not their fault, couldn't make this game any other way, but yeah. I think they just (probably rightly) assume that most players aren't gonna pore over every nook and cranny and therefore won't see the repeated content enough to get sick of it.
Maybe with the hindsight of how Elden Ring made you feel you can fight the urge to MUST DO EVERYTHING and stick to the legacy dungeons? I didn't quite burn out but I think I'll try to adjust how I approach the sequel.
Yeah, for an Elden Ring 2 that's an approach I might take, though you might end up considerably below the "power curve" as a result. Of course, doing most of the things in Elden Ring 1 put me well above the power curve for the last 1/3rd of the game, which made most of that section fall rather flat as the difficulty was basically gone at that point.
That's another issue I personally had with the size and scope of Elden Ring. You take a series with balance historically as wonky as Dark Souls, and multiply that across the length and item variety of Elden Ring, and you end up with WILD power disparity between builds which makes any kind of game balance next to impossible to achieve with the systems the game has in place.
the thing about every souls-adjacent game is that if you power through to a later area, you'll be "underleveled," but you'll also have weak chump enemies that drop way more souls and level you up faster
Maybe with the hindsight of how Elden Ring made you feel you can fight the urge to MUST DO EVERYTHING and stick to the legacy dungeons? I didn't quite burn out but I think I'll try to adjust how I approach the sequel.
Probably not haha.
Thing is, I really like the worlds that From creates. I like exploring. I'm not down on the catacombs or caves because a lot of them had some novel gimmick. One of my favorite areas in the game might have been an unassuming cave in one of the last areas. But then I got to the end and the boss was one that I had already fought (and had an achievement tied to it) and that's just kind of a bummer. Also the boss guarding the cave was one I had fought 4 times.
Yep! It’s pretty cool because it retroactively made Eileen black in my eyes (I don’t care what the character model is, you can never see it legitimately in game).
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited April 2022
Sekiro
Every single open world I have ever played is significantly more copy and paste than this game. The enemy and boss and activity variety in this game is insane for an open world.
I don't really think its valid to compare this to regular souls games. It's genuinely as different as sekiro is, in terms of targetting and designing for a different genre. They did an absolutely fantastic job in all aspects of open world design, especially variety.
You can still dislike it of course, you dislike what you dislike. Nobody can control that or take it away from you. But the point is, in perspective, that dislike is more of a dislike of the genre itself. Cos nobody is doing it better in this genre.
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(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I do think you could improve every tree spirit fight by switching up the arenas; larger ones across the board, each with some gimmicks.
I’d even rather face two on an open plain than one in a box.
Maybe one could have a spell casting rider, and it won’t roll until you get it at half health, at which point it squashes its rider trying to kill you.
A small one in a smaller room might have been ok. Easier to see, harder to hit.
A big one in a field while you’re on Torrent?
Also I just like when stuff has a name and a sad backstory.
Posts
nah
yeah
It's open world design philosophy is so different.
Sekiro,
Bloodborne/Elden Ring (Equal tier)
Souls
I think I got to the second owl fight and had to take a break from it
At the bottom of the heap of the ones I’ve actually played, personally. (I skipped DS2 and DS3).
I don’t like open world games much at all. Personally, all the best parts of Elden Ring are the souls elements, and all the worst parts are the open world elements, and it made the game feel rote and boring in a way no previous Souls game had ever felt for me.
Elden Ring is not that. You can just ride in any direction and find something genuinely new, or some beautiful vista, or an NPC whose life you can ruin by *checks notes* doing their quest.
For me it’s everything I love about open world games without anything I hate about them.
Everything is on the map so it’s just a different checklist of chapel, ruin, mine, catacomb and as the game goes on it’s going to be the same or similar dragon, or knight, or giant, or whatever that you need to kill in the same way.
The game is too long and recycled content to pad out the length, which given its size and length was the only sane way to do it.
I would have preferred a shorter, tighter game with less or no recycled content.
You may not like what's there, and that's fine, art is subjective, but trying to argue that it's all the same stuff copy-pasted is silly.
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
they reused a lot of monster assets, especially turning mini-bosses into regular enemies and in certain areas towards the end of the game it feels incredibly copy/paste
haligtree is probably the worst offender in this case. is there even one single new monster type in that zone, aside from a the last boss?
You fight the same dragon basically 20 times with the color changing on their breath weapon.
Some bosses you fight are literally the same boss with maybe a palette swap but identical move sets. You fight the same boss many, many times. Sometimes only the arena changes. Sometimes they put bosses in arenas they were never meant to fight in.
I mean if you're gonna use literally in a way that is literally wrong then there's no point to this discussion
To me, personally, it just wore thin towards hour 150+ on the first playthrough. I've already fought all of these things before, especially the boss-refights with nothing new added to their kits in between encounters.
You walk into a situation which feels vaguely familiar, plays on expectations that have been set up prior, and then there's a minor tweak that makes it feel interesting and fresh. It trains you how to deal with various situations, and then throws variations on that at you with different, surprising curveballs.
It establishes a design vocabulary, and then tells different stories with it.
Ulcerated Tree Spirits straight up breaking every indoor area they're fought in is really disappointing. Also you fight it like six times?
I'm with Inquisitor in that I wish Elden Ring had been a tighter experience. The build variety is amazing, but as someone who plays these games with a "see everything I can" mindset, I burned out on Elden Ring. I haven't beaten it yet, but I'm also not terribly motivated to do so.
Context: I've beaten Fire Giant but haven't moved past him and I'm at the grace for Malenia. Nearing the end, I went ahead and looked up what I might have missed and I had cleared every side area expect for one Hero's Grave. Game is big. But I don't think I fought any one side boss less than four times. And I've fought duplicates of "main" bosses a couple times too.
What? You do fight literally the same boss. The ulcerated tree boss fights are the same boss fights. The Tree Sentinels are the same boss fights. Pretty sure their moveset doesn’t change and there are other examples.
Due to the size of the game I haven’t ran the numbers myself but I have heard it said the game has 150-200 boss fights (depending on what you count as a boss) and roughly 10 of them are unique (aka you can fight them only once).
you fight 4 magma wyrms (i can't remember if the gael tunnel one has a restricted moveset where it doesn't stand up), you fight 3 falling star beasts (i know the one that isn't fully grown doesn't use the gravity attacks, wow totally new fight), there are 4 death birds and 4 death rite birds and i couldn't tell you the difference between a death bird and a death rite bird's moveset (the death rite bird has the frostbite flame effect on some attacks?), two ancestor beasts, you refight the black blade kindred and also its the axe&sword valiant gargoyle moveset, 3x black knife assassin movesets,
a bunch of refights where its the same boss but with non-boss adds, or now you fight two bosses you've already fought before (godskin duo gets a pass, all of the random ones in caves and catacombs suck, especially the crystallians)
margit is just the first phase of morgott, godefroy is just the first phase of godrick, mogh is just the first phase of mogh (lord of blood), you fight godfrey twice although i can't tell you if the spirit form version has the same moveset as the actual boss phase 1 because it died so fast
a bunch of night cavalry where they are using a different weapon that changes their moveset in ways i couldn't tell you, a bunch of dragons where the difference is their breath attack, you refight the tibia mariner a few times, i couldn't tell you if the only difference between niall and o'neil is what soldiers they summon, but it certainly felt that way,
not all of this re-use is a problem but some of these fights aren't worth using, let alone re-using
It’s the only remotely sane way to go about it.
Personally though, I don’t really want or need a game with such a large size or scope, I don’t need a game that takes me 120+ hours to beat.
I’d prefer a game that is shorter, and focused, and reused things less often because it didn’t need to.
This is why Elden Ring is at the bottom of MY ranking of Souls games. Please keep in mind this is no “Elden Rings is objectively bad” type of nonsense. It’s simply why it’s not my type of game and why I don’t like it as much as other entries in the series.
(Which, is unfortunate for me because based on sales alone they would be fools not to make an Elden Ring 2).
I'm looking forward to Olden Rung myself
but even with that i still finished the game feeling like, idk, give me like 20-25% less game and it'd be fantastic.
Yeah, for an Elden Ring 2 that's an approach I might take, though you might end up considerably below the "power curve" as a result. Of course, doing most of the things in Elden Ring 1 put me well above the power curve for the last 1/3rd of the game, which made most of that section fall rather flat as the difficulty was basically gone at that point.
That's another issue I personally had with the size and scope of Elden Ring. You take a series with balance historically as wonky as Dark Souls, and multiply that across the length and item variety of Elden Ring, and you end up with WILD power disparity between builds which makes any kind of game balance next to impossible to achieve with the systems the game has in place.
though honestly i wouldn't have complained if they'd included more reskinned bosses from previous games. if like every tree avatar was a different throwback boss that woulda been neat
but yeah like. they absolutely reuse boss battles in this game all the time. multiple magma wyrms, tree spirits, tree avatars, tree sentinels, godskin apostles, dragonkin soldiers, dragons, crystallians, trolls, burial watchdogs, crucible knights, misbegotten warriors, black knife assassins, commanders, demihuman queens, tibia mariners, gargoyles, and more
it's uncommon for fights to be 100% copy-pastes, but it does happen, and frequently the differences are pretty minor, like having one fight in an open space vs. another fight in a cramped space, or throwing two guys at you at once, or changing the status effect the boss inflicts. sometimes bosses just become normal enemies in a later game area, or vice-versa. I don't blame 'em for it because as has been said, it'd be impossible to build a game of this scope without reusing stuff, but i do get how it'd hurt your enjoyment of it. Like, the very first thing I did in the game was open up the side corridor in the starting area, and was delighted that i found a weird optional zone with a chariot deathtrap. That got a lot less exciting when I realized that "chariot deathtrap" was just one of the types of dungeons that would repeat over and over throughout the game. Again, not their fault, couldn't make this game any other way, but yeah. I think they just (probably rightly) assume that most players aren't gonna pore over every nook and cranny and therefore won't see the repeated content enough to get sick of it.
the thing about every souls-adjacent game is that if you power through to a later area, you'll be "underleveled," but you'll also have weak chump enemies that drop way more souls and level you up faster
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Thing is, I really like the worlds that From creates. I like exploring. I'm not down on the catacombs or caves because a lot of them had some novel gimmick. One of my favorite areas in the game might have been an unassuming cave in one of the last areas. But then I got to the end and the boss was one that I had already fought (and had an achievement tied to it) and that's just kind of a bummer. Also the boss guarding the cave was one I had fought 4 times.
Dark Souls III: Dark Soles 3 DLC.
A hunter must hunt.
she's from bedford apparently, also she's black
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ben-mirza/jacqueline-boatswain-interview_b_3558882.html
I don't really think its valid to compare this to regular souls games. It's genuinely as different as sekiro is, in terms of targetting and designing for a different genre. They did an absolutely fantastic job in all aspects of open world design, especially variety.
You can still dislike it of course, you dislike what you dislike. Nobody can control that or take it away from you. But the point is, in perspective, that dislike is more of a dislike of the genre itself. Cos nobody is doing it better in this genre.
I’d even rather face two on an open plain than one in a box.
Maybe one could have a spell casting rider, and it won’t roll until you get it at half health, at which point it squashes its rider trying to kill you.
A small one in a smaller room might have been ok. Easier to see, harder to hit.
A big one in a field while you’re on Torrent?
Also I just like when stuff has a name and a sad backstory.