I don't have problems with spelling since I could always check it but I still don't fully understand how the grammar works since that was not how I managed to learn the language when I was young
I think I just bumbled through sheer osmosis and picking up patterns
I mean
That’s how many of us who are native speakers picked it up
I often get asked to proof read English messages/emails from friends and coworkers who aren't native speakers, which has led a couple times to this kind of exchange:
"Ok, it looks good except for this part, you can't phrase it like that. Here's what you need to say"
"Oh, thanks. But why is it wrong? What's the rule here?"
"I... don't know. But it sounds wrong so.." *shrug*
I used to post on the offical message board for an Australian video game TV show called Good Game. It was fairly cringeworthy looking back on it, but there were some genuinely decent people posting there
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I don't have problems with spelling since I could always check it but I still don't fully understand how the grammar works since that was not how I managed to learn the language when I was young
I think I just bumbled through sheer osmosis and picking up patterns
I mean
That’s how many of us who are native speakers picked it up
I often get asked to proof read English messages/emails from friends and coworkers who aren't native speakers, which has led a couple times to this kind of exchange:
"Ok, it looks good except for this part, you can't phrase it like that. Here's what you need to say"
"Oh, thanks. But why is it wrong? What's the rule here?"
"I... don't know. But it sounds wrong so.." *shrug*
The ordering of adjectives is one of those things that stick out
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I don't know why it works like this but there is absolutely an order to lists of modifiers to a noun that sounds the most correct
Quantity or number.
Quality or opinion.
Size.
Age.
Shape.
Color.
Proper adjective (often nationality, other place of origin, or material)
Purpose or qualifier.
internet says, and that sound right when I construct an example sentence in my head
+4
JedocIn the scupperswith the staggers and jagsRegistered Userregular
The interesting thing is that not every native speaker groks those rules. This is a community that communicates mostly through the written word and animated gifs that imply turgid genitals without exactly depicting turgid genitals. Therefore, this place selects for people who have an instinctive knack for the written English language.
There are many people who have that kind of instinctive knack for math or chemistry or drawing or basketball, but who don't have a natural propensity for writing. If they posted here, they wouldn't seem very smart, just like I would come off like a real doofus if you asked me to draw a picture or do anything competent with a ball.
The double-interesting thing is that if you ever had a really great teacher, they probably didn't start out naturally good at the subject they were teaching. You know that certain sentences are correct and others are wrong, but you probably have a hard time expressing why. Similarly, I had a chemistry teacher in high school who had a near-instinctive understanding for how various chemicals and ions and shit would combine, but was extremely frustrated when he tried to explain it to students who didn't share his gift.
I don't think most folks can teach a subject they're naturally good at, because they don't know how to learn it. It's just in their bones, and they don't understand why it's hard for you to grasp.
I don't think it's biological that it sounds right in that order, yeah, I think it's subconsciously learned language rules.
+7
DepressperadoI just wanted to see you laughingin the pizza rainRegistered Userregular
edited January 2021
Time paradox
I read a bunch- well, skimmed several wikipedia pages while smoking cigarettes- about how language works and how it developed and whether or not it's... instinctive?
like, how comparatively easy it is for children to learn to talk, compared to teaching them how to read and write
and then I started reading about innatism and later nativism vs. tabula rasa and then I moved onto the game Tabula Rasa which I actually really liked even though it got shitcanned almost immediately
and then I remembered my wicked ADD and tried to remember what I was originally on wikipedia for
Depressperado on
+9
DepressperadoI just wanted to see you laughingin the pizza rainRegistered Userregular
Time paradox
I think I'm pretty lucky that I have, ahem, some small talent as a writer.
if I had to have all the thoughts I have in my head and not be able to contextualize them or give them form, even in the petty little ways I do, I think I'd go crazy.
It was just a few months ago that I realized it was still called Singularity Engine, so this feels fine to me.
re: language, my wife's been trying to learn Swedish and it's made me realise how little I understand my own language. There's way too many words that mean the exact same thing but you can't just use them in a certain way because it "sounds weird" or is too formal/informal and lots of other weird little nuances I was never aware of.
I also learned that for someone new to the language the phrase we use like "No problem" sounds almost exactly like the word for ginger. ("Ingen fara", "Ingefära")
+4
Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
Is there any language that isn't full of arbitrary bullshit and examples of breaking its own rules? I guess maybe Esperanto.
Indeed, though I still feel I should say that languages like C (and C-like languages) are notoriously hard to parse, but they are still more consistent and regular than any human spoken language.
oh yeah for sure, normal language was invented piecemeal out of necessity and anytime that happens the thing you end up with is going to be a Frankenstein monstrosity
Houk the Namebringer on
+4
Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
I have a nephew just shy of 2 and I love seeing him learn how to talk, it's really fascinating. He picked up rhythm and intonation pretty early, so he can say what sounds like a sentence and you understand what he's asking but there's no actual proper words in it. So much of understanding is just down to context.
This week he's started using "upstairs" and "empty", which to me seem like pretty advanced concepts when you haven't yet learned how to say, like "stairs" and "cup". He's also finally learned to say my name. Which means he now yells it at me constantly whenever I'm in the room.
The first board on which I was active was attached to a Monkey Island fan site, hence my monkey-themed user name which I've since used for almost everything
I started a discussion about what t members of the fandom should collectively be called, and the ensuing vote led to many bannings of alts trying to stuff the ballot box
What won?
SCUMMies (after the SCUMM engine, obvs), narrowly beating Mighty Pirates
Not exactly the type of thing that you'd mention in regular company, but it was my suggestion, so 8-)
you understand what he's asking but there's no actual proper words in it. So much of understanding is just down to context
Yeah, listening to my kids develop their speech I've idly wondered how much of adult conversation is actually just people making noises that sound vaguely sentence-like and the other people deciding for themselves what it means based on contextual clues.
The whole scaffold of words and grammar just being a veneer of rationality and order in this scenario.
I have a nephew just shy of 2 and I love seeing him learn how to talk, it's really fascinating. He picked up rhythm and intonation pretty early, so he can say what sounds like a sentence and you understand what he's asking but there's no actual proper words in it. So much of understanding is just down to context.
you understand what he's asking but there's no actual proper words in it. So much of understanding is just down to context
Yeah, listening to my kids develop their speech I've idly wondered how much of adult conversation is actually just people making noises that sound vaguely sentence-like and the other people deciding for themselves what it means based on contextual clues.
The whole scaffold of words and grammar just being a veneer of rationality and order in this scenario.
That's part of the reason why talking on the phone can be so much more difficult than in person, if I recall correctly, especially if it's not in your native tongue. You're missing so many context clues without being there with the other person.
Is there any language that isn't full of arbitrary bullshit and examples of breaking its own rules? I guess maybe Esperanto.
So there's a high-level Nerd Art called conlanging, which is short for "constructed language." It's basically a hobbyist version of what the makers of Esperanto did, or Tolkein when he came up with the rules for the... Elvish? (I don't actually know LotR that well) language.
For a language that is completely consistent, you're looking at Lojban. But that leads us back to this antique xkcd comic: https://xkcd.com/191/
The fun bit is when you're worldbuilding for a piece of fiction and want to make a natural language, ie a language the people of your world developed in a similar way to how RL languages did (except maybe with a twist for your setting, like certain sounds attracting predators so they're only used in words hunters use or particularly vile curses). That means you want to get that weird redundant shit and rule breaking for that sweet, sweet verisimilitude.
On the subject of language acquisition, it is continuously startling when you're listening to your own children and realizing that yeah, that's probably what you sound like. Like "where did she get that from," and the answer is inevitably "oh, me, shit."
Because I'm weird, I've always navigated here by typical 'soc...' into my web-browser address bar. By that measure, it's never been Singularity Engine.
For the longest time, I just used the "all bookmarked" page, but that really leads you to just follow a narrow amount of threads.
So now I open the all bookmarked page, look around, reply, and then open it again, and click on the bigger of the two PA logos on the top left to forum overview
+1
Bizzaro StormyI am Bizzaro Stormy.I am Bizzaro Stormy.Registered Userregular
Posts
I often get asked to proof read English messages/emails from friends and coworkers who aren't native speakers, which has led a couple times to this kind of exchange:
"Ok, it looks good except for this part, you can't phrase it like that. Here's what you need to say"
"Oh, thanks. But why is it wrong? What's the rule here?"
"I... don't know. But it sounds wrong so.." *shrug*
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
The ordering of adjectives is one of those things that stick out
There are many people who have that kind of instinctive knack for math or chemistry or drawing or basketball, but who don't have a natural propensity for writing. If they posted here, they wouldn't seem very smart, just like I would come off like a real doofus if you asked me to draw a picture or do anything competent with a ball.
The double-interesting thing is that if you ever had a really great teacher, they probably didn't start out naturally good at the subject they were teaching. You know that certain sentences are correct and others are wrong, but you probably have a hard time expressing why. Similarly, I had a chemistry teacher in high school who had a near-instinctive understanding for how various chemicals and ions and shit would combine, but was extremely frustrated when he tried to explain it to students who didn't share his gift.
I don't think most folks can teach a subject they're naturally good at, because they don't know how to learn it. It's just in their bones, and they don't understand why it's hard for you to grasp.
like, how comparatively easy it is for children to learn to talk, compared to teaching them how to read and write
and then I started reading about innatism and later nativism vs. tabula rasa and then I moved onto the game Tabula Rasa which I actually really liked even though it got shitcanned almost immediately
and then I remembered my wicked ADD and tried to remember what I was originally on wikipedia for
if I had to have all the thoughts I have in my head and not be able to contextualize them or give them form, even in the petty little ways I do, I think I'd go crazy.
I am degenerate word monkey and I will never use; a semi colon properly
EDIT: yep that’s right, I just now noticed the reversion.
re: language, my wife's been trying to learn Swedish and it's made me realise how little I understand my own language. There's way too many words that mean the exact same thing but you can't just use them in a certain way because it "sounds weird" or is too formal/informal and lots of other weird little nuances I was never aware of.
I also learned that for someone new to the language the phrase we use like "No problem" sounds almost exactly like the word for ginger. ("Ingen fara", "Ingefära")
This week he's started using "upstairs" and "empty", which to me seem like pretty advanced concepts when you haven't yet learned how to say, like "stairs" and "cup". He's also finally learned to say my name. Which means he now yells it at me constantly whenever I'm in the room.
SCUMMies (after the SCUMM engine, obvs), narrowly beating Mighty Pirates
Not exactly the type of thing that you'd mention in regular company, but it was my suggestion, so 8-)
And even that gets subverted on occasion
For example, the Big Bad Wolf in the Three Little Pigs story
If quality came before size he'd be the Bad Big Wolf, like an evil little secret
But the vowel sounds don't sound right, the same way it's pitter-patter and not patter-pitter despite not really making any difference
Yeah, listening to my kids develop their speech I've idly wondered how much of adult conversation is actually just people making noises that sound vaguely sentence-like and the other people deciding for themselves what it means based on contextual clues.
The whole scaffold of words and grammar just being a veneer of rationality and order in this scenario.
The Wubble Wololo
Reminds me of
That's part of the reason why talking on the phone can be so much more difficult than in person, if I recall correctly, especially if it's not in your native tongue. You're missing so many context clues without being there with the other person.
I imvited two assholes, Trump and Biden to my party.
I invited two assholes, Trump, and Biden to my party.
Oxford comma in the second version to clarify that I invited four people total, and wasn't just naming the assholes in the first sentence.
Not a great example, but that comma in front of an 'and' for clarity is one.
So there's a high-level Nerd Art called conlanging, which is short for "constructed language." It's basically a hobbyist version of what the makers of Esperanto did, or Tolkein when he came up with the rules for the... Elvish? (I don't actually know LotR that well) language.
For a language that is completely consistent, you're looking at Lojban. But that leads us back to this antique xkcd comic: https://xkcd.com/191/
The fun bit is when you're worldbuilding for a piece of fiction and want to make a natural language, ie a language the people of your world developed in a similar way to how RL languages did (except maybe with a twist for your setting, like certain sounds attracting predators so they're only used in words hunters use or particularly vile curses). That means you want to get that weird redundant shit and rule breaking for that sweet, sweet verisimilitude.
Steam // Secret Satan
i climbed to Dharamsala too, i did
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
So now I open the all bookmarked page, look around, reply, and then open it again, and click on the bigger of the two PA logos on the top left to forum overview