[Second Impeachment] of the 45th President of the United States | Trial: 1pm 02/08/2021

monikermoniker Registered User regular
edited January 22 in Debate and/or Discourse
fgct0fq39hni.jpg


—Article I, Section II, Clause V
The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.


—Article I, Section III, Clauses VI and VII
The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States; but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.



Press Conference of Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi (CA-12) 07 January 2021 Calling for the removal of President Trump for his incitement of an armed insurrection against the United States Congress



Transcript:
YESTERDAY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES DECIDED AN ARMED INSURRECTION AGAINST AMERICA -- INCITED AN ARMED INSURRECTION AGAINST AMERICA. THE VIOLENCE TARGETING CONGRESS OUR HORRORS THAT WILL FOREVER STAIN OUR NATIONS HISTORY. INSTIGATED BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. THAT'S WHY IT'S SUCH A STAIN. CALLING FOR THIS SEDITIOUS ACT, THE PRESIDENT HAS COMMITTED AN UNSPEAKABLE ASSAULT ON OUR NATION AND OUR PEOPLE. I JOIN THE DEMOCRATIC LEADER ON CALLING ON THE VICE PRESIDENT TO REMOVE THIS PRESIDENT BY IMMEDIATELY INVOKING THE 25TH AMENDMENT. IF THE VICE PRESIDENT DOES NOT ACT, THE CONGRESS MAY BE PREPARED TO MOVE FORWARD WITH IMPEACHMENT. THAT IS THE OVERWHELMING SENTIMENT OF MY. AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BY THE WAY. JUSTICE WILL BE DONE TO THOSE WHO CARRIED OUT THESE ACTS WHICH WERE ACTS OF SEDITION AND ACTS OF COWARDICE. TO THOSE WHOSE PURPOSE WAS TO DETER OUR RESPONSIBILITY, YOU HAVE FAILED. YOU DID NOT DIVERT THE CONGRESS FROM OUR SOLEMN CONSTITUTIONAL PURPOSE. TO VALIDATE THE OVERWHELMING ELECTION OF JOE BIDEN AND KAMALA HARRIS AS PRESIDENT AND VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. DESPITE THE DESECRATION OF OUR CAPITAL, WE UPHELD IN FRONT OF THE COUNTRY THE BEDROCK PRINCIPLE THAT THE PEOPLE ARE SOVEREIGN AND THAT THEY HOLD POWER TO CHOOSE THEIR LEADERS. REJECTING THIS ATTEMPTED COUP ON THE PART OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS SUPPORTERS. ACCOUNTABILITY IS ALSO NEEDED FOR REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS WHO PROMOTED THE EXTREME CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT PROVOKED THE VIOLENCE, ENCOURAGED THE MOB AND WHO AFTER DESECRATION OF THE CAPITAL WENT BACK TO THE HOUSE FLOOR AND CONTINUED TO UNDERPIN THIS ASSAULT ON OUR DEMOCRACY. THESE REPUBLICANS -- TO PROTECT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF UNITED STATES. THE HOUSE WORKED THROUGH THE EVENING AND INTO THE MORNING UNTIL NEARLY 4 A.M. TO VALIDATE ELECTORAL COUNT PROCLAIMING JOE BIDEN AND KAMALA HARRIS AS THE DULY ELECTED PRESIDENT AND VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. I WANT TO SAY HOW PROUD I AM OF MY MEMBERS. FOR A WHILE NOW, ADAM SCHIFF SET FORTH A PLAN THAT WAS ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION. IT WAS NOT ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AND ALL THE REASONS HE SHOULD NOT BE PRESIDENT. HE WAS NOT PART OF THIS. IT WAS ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION AND HOW WE HAVE TO, WE ARE A COUNTRY OF LAW. WE ARE NOT A MONARCHY WITH A KING AS JAMIE HAS SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I WANT TO ALSO THANK THE MEMBERS OF THE ARIZONA DELEGATION LED BY -- ARIZONA DELEGATION AND PENNSYLVANIA DELEGATION FOR THE PRESENTATIONS THAT THEY MADE TO REFUTE THE RIDICULOUS STATEMENTS BEING MADE BY OUR COLLEAGUES, FOR WHAT REASON I DON'T KNOW. IT WASN'T ABOUT REASON. I THANK THEM FOR THOSE. ALL OF THIS THIS WEEK, OUR SWEARING IN ON SUNDAY, PREPARING FOR WEDNESDAY AS THE WEEK BEGAN. THE ELECTION OF TWO DEMOCRATS IN GEORGIA BECAUSE OF THE OVERWHELMING PARTICIPATION OF PEOPLE AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL. SO MANY PEOPLE, I'M SO PROUD OF OUR HOUSE MEMBERS. THE CHAIR OF THE GEORGIA DEMOCRATIC PARTY, NEWLY ELECTED CAROLYN BARDO, DAVID SCOTT, THE DEAN OF THE DELEGATION, HANK JOHNSON. THEY HAD THEIR PLAN ALREADY SHOULD THEY HAVE A JET DID -- SHOULD THEY HAVE OBJECTED TO GEORGIA. WE WERE PREPARED. MEMBERS WORKED HARD. IT'S ABOUT DEFENDING THE CONSTITUTION, HONORING OUR PURPOSE TO COUNT AND ASCERTAIN THE ELECTORAL NUMBERS. VERY PLEASED NOW THAT WE HAVE 13 DAYS. PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN AND A DEMOCRATIC HOUSE MAJORITY AND A DEMOCRATIC SENATE MAJORITY THAT WILL WORK TO HEAL AND RESTORE THE SOUL OF OUR NATION. I WILL CLOSE BY ST. FRANCIS WHOSE SONG OF ST. FRANCIS IS OUR CITIES ANTHEM. WHERE THERE IS DARKNESS, MAY YOU BRING LIGHT. THE LIST GOES ON. SO DOES THE TIME FOR HEALING. TAKE US DOWN A PATH OF UNITY, UNITY FOR OUR COUNTRY.


H. Res. 24 | Articles of Impeachment against President Donald John Trump [PDF]
RESOLUTION
Impeaching Donald John Trump, President of the United States, for high crimes and misdemeanors.

Resolved, That Donald John Trump, President of the United States, is impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors and that the following article of impeachment be exhibited to the United States Senate:

Article of impeachment exhibited by the House of Representatives of the United States of America in the name of itself and of the people of the United States of America, against Donald John Trump, President of the United States of America, in maintenance and support of its impeachment against him for high crimes and misdemeanors.

ARTICLE I: INCITEMENT OF INSURRECTION

The Constitution provides that the House of Representatives ‘‘shall have the sole Power of Impeachment’’ and that the President ‘‘shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors’’. Further, section 3 of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution prohibits any person who has ‘‘engaged in insurrection or rebellion against’’ the United States from ‘‘hold[ing] any office . . . under the United States’’. In his conduct while President of the United States—and in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed—Donald John Trump engaged in high Crimes and Misdemeanors by inciting violence against the Government of the United States, in that:

On January 6, 2021, pursuant to the 12th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, the Vice President of the United States, the House of Representatives, and the Senate met at the United States Capitol for a Joint Session of Congress to count the votes of the Electoral College. In the months preceding the Joint Session, President Trump repeatedly issued false statements asserting that the Presidential election results were the product of widespread fraud and should not be accepted by the American people or certified by State or Federal officials. Shortly before the Joint Session commenced, President Trump, addressed a crowd at the Ellipse in Washington, DC. There, he reiterated false claims that ‘‘we won this election, and we won it by a landslide’’. He also willfully made statements that, in context, encouraged—and foreseeably resulted in—lawless action at the Capitol, such as: ‘‘if you don’t fight like hell you’re not going to have a country anymore’’. Thus incited by Presi9 dent Trump, members of the crowd he had addressed, in an attempt to, among other objectives, interfere with the Joint Session’s solemn constitutional duty to certify the results of the 2020 Presidential election, unlawfully breached and vandalized the Capitol, injured and killed law enforcement personnel, menaced Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel, and engaged in other violent, deadly, destructive, and seditious acts.

President Trump’s conduct on January 6, 2021, followed his prior efforts to subvert and obstruct the certification of the results of the 2020 Presidential election. Those prior efforts included a phone call on January 2, 2021, during which President Trump urged the secretary of state of Georgia, Brad Raffensperger, to ‘‘find’’ enough votes to overturn the Georgia Presidential election results and threatened Secretary Raffensperger if he failed to do so.

In all this, President Trump gravely endangered the security of the United States and its institutions of Government. He threatened the integrity of the democratic system, interfered with the peaceful transition of power, and imperiled a coequal branch of Government. He thereby betrayed his trust as President, to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore, Donald John Trump, by such conduct, has demonstrated that he will remain a threat to national security, democracy, and the Constitution if allowed to remain in office, and has acted in a manner grossly incompatible with self-governance and the rule of law. Donald John Trump thus warrants impeachment and trial, removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.


Passed in the House 232-197 | Roll Call 17



Relevant Statutes:
18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason
18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.


18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.


18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy
18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.


18 U.S. Code § 2385 - Advocating overthrow of Government
18 U.S. Code § 2385 - Advocating overthrow of Government

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

CRS Report | The Impeachment Process in the Senate [PDF]


*************
The OP will be continually updated as information becomes available, and I have time to add to it.

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Posts

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    moniker on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    Previous House Floor Managers:
    Adam Schiff D-CA
    Jerry Nadler D-NY
    Hakeem Jeffries D-NY
    Zoe Lofgren D-CA
    Val Demmings D-FL
    Jason Crow D-CO
    Sylvia Garcia D-TX

    *************

    moniker on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited January 13
    Members of the Sedition Caucus

    Overturn the Election Edition:
    United States Representatives:
    (AL-04) Robert Aderholt
    (GA-12) Rick Allen
    (TX-19) Jodey Arrington
    (TX-36) Brian Babin
    (IN-04) Jim Baird
    (IN-03) Jim Banks
    (MI-01) Jack Bergman
    (OK-05) Stephanie Bice
    (AZ-05) Andy Biggs
    (NC-09) Dan Bishop
    (CO-03) Lauren Boebert
    (IL-12) Michael Bost
    (AL-05) Mo Brooks
    (NC-13) Ted Budd
    (TN-02) Tim Burchett
    (TX-26) Michael Burgess
    (CA-42) Ken Calvert
    (FL-03) Kat Cammack
    (AL-01) Jerry Carl
    (GA-01) Buddy Carter
    (TX-31) John Carter
    (NC-11) Madison Cawthorn
    (VA-06) Ben Cline
    (TX-27) Michael Cloud
    (GA-09) Andrew Clyde
    (OK-04) Tom Cole
    (AR-01) Rick Crawford
    (OH-08) Warren Davidson
    (TN-04) Scott DesJarlais
    (FL-25) Mario Díaz-Balart
    (FL-19) Byron Donalds
    (SC-03) Jeff Duncan
    (FL-02) Neal Dunn
    (KS-04) Ron Estes
    (TX-04) Pat Fallon
    (MN-07) Michelle Fischbach
    (WI-05) Scott Fitzgerald
    (TN-03) Chuck Fleischmann
    (FL-15) Scott Franklin
    (ID-01) Russ Fulcher
    (FL-01) Matt Gaetz
    (CA-25) Michael Garcia
    (OH-07) Bob Gibbs
    (FL-26) Carlos Giménez
    (TX-01) Louie Gohmert
    (VA-05) Bob Good
    (TX-05) Lance Gooden
    (AZ-04) Paul Gosar
    (MO-06) Sam Graves
    (TN-07) Mark Green
    (GA-14) Marjorie Taylor Greene
    (VA-09) Morgan Griffith
    (MA-03) Michael Guest
    (MN-01) Jim Hagedorn
    (MD-01) Andy Harris
    (TN-01) Diana Harshbarger
    (MO-04) Vicky Hartzler
    (OK-01) Kevin Hern
    (NM-02) Yvette Herrell
    (GA-10) Jody Hice
    (LA-03) Clay Higgins
    (NC-08) Richard Hudson
    (CA-50) Darrell Issa
    (TX-13) Ronny Jackson
    (NY-27) Chris Jacobs
    (LA-04) Mike Johnson
    (OH-06) Bill Johnson
    (OH-04) Jim Jordan
    (PA-13) John Joyce
    (MA-01) John Kelly
    (PA-16) Mike Kelly
    (CA-01) Doug LaMalfa
    (CO-05) Doug Lamborn
    (KS-02) Jake LaTurner
    (AZ-08) Debbie Lesko
    (MO-07) Billy Long
    (GA-11) Barry Loudermilk
    (OK-03) Frank Lucas
    (MO-03) Blaine Luetkemeyer
    (NY-11) Nicole Malliotakis
    (KS-01) Tracey Mann
    (FL-18) Brian Mast
    (CA-23) Kevin McCarthy
    (MI-10) Lisa McClain
    (IL-15) Mary Miller
    (WV-03) Carol Miller
    (AL-02) Barry Moore
    (OK-02) Markwayne Mullin
    (TX-22) Troy Nehls
    (SC-05) Ralph Norman
    (CA-22) Devin Nunes
    (CA-08) Jay Obernolte
    (MS-04) Steven Palazzo
    (AL-06) Gary Palmer
    (PA-10) Scott Perry
    (TX-11) August Pfluger
    (FL-08) Bill Posey
    (PA-14) Guy Reschenthaler
    (SC-07) Tom Rice
    (AL-03) Mike Rogers
    (KY-05) Hal Rogers
    (TN-06) John Rose
    (MT-01) Matt Rosendale
    (NC-07) David Rouzer
    (FL-04) John Rutherford
    (LA-01) Steve Scalise
    (TX-17) Pete Sessions
    (MO-08) Jason Smith
    (NE-03) Adam Smith
    (FL-17) Greg Steube
    (WI-07) Tom Tiffany
    (SC-04) William Timmons
    (NJ-02) Jeff Van Drew
    (MI-07) Tim Walberg
    (IN-02) Jackie Walorski
    (TX-14) Randy Weber
    (FL-11) Daniel Webster
    (TX-25) Roger Williams
    (SC-02) Joe Wilson
    (TX-06) Ron Wright
    (NY-01) Lee Zeldin

    United States Senators:
    (R-TX) Ted Cruz
    (R-MO) Josh Hawley
    (R-MS) Cindy Hyde-Smith
    (R-LA) John Kennedy
    (R-KS) Roger Marshall
    (R-FL) Rick Scott
    (R-AL) Tommy Tuberville

    Retain the Insurrectionist President Edition:
    United States Representatives

    moniker on
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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    Be wary, be wary,
    The 6th of January
    Donald Trump's insurrectionist plot
    I know of no reason
    why Donald Trump's treason
    should ever be forgot

    MAGA! MAGA!
    His mob's lament
    As they stormed the seat
    of our Government

    With bombs and bullets
    They did show
    T'was American Democracy
    He hoped to overthrow

    But murder and mayhem,
    Could not prevent
    Swearing in Joe Biden
    Our next President!

    Holloa boys, Holloa boys,
    Ring out the bells
    Holloa boys, Holloa boys,
    Donald Trump will burn in Hell!

    moniker on
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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    This was disputed earlier but I still don't see where I am wrong.

    Once the two Georgia Dems are sworn in, we have a 50/50 senate, yes?

    Pence remains the VP, and therefore casts the tiebreaking vote that keeps McConnell as the majority leader.

    Kamala does not replace Pence as VP until inaguration on the 20th, making her the tiebreaker that can hand majority control to Schumer.

    Ergo if McConnell's slow-ass interpretation of impeachment timetable rests on him remaining majority leader, he's going to remain majority leader until Trump is out of office, meaning he can delay impeachment trial until Trump is out of office.

    I'm aware that Trump can be convicted even after leaving office, but it would be nice to clarify that 1) this is the scenario we are facing, and 2) noting that it may well be much harder to get pubs to convict with it being "not necessary" now that he has left.

    rahkeesh2000 on
    XaquinPantsB
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    he's going to be impeached but not convicted again

    no way will 17 gop senators vote to convict after he's no longer president

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    This was disputed earlier but I still don't see where I am wrong.

    Once the two Georgia Dems are sworn in, we have a 50/50 senate, yes?

    Pence remains the VP, and therefore casts the tiebreaking vote that keeps McConnell as the majority leader.

    Kamala does not replace Pence as VP until inaguration on the 20th, making her the tiebreaker that can hand majority control to Schumer.

    Ergo if McConnell's slow-ass interpretation of impeachment timetable rests on him remaining majority leader, he's going to remain majority leader until Trump is out of office, meaning he can delay impeachment trial until Trump is out of office.

    I'm aware that Trump can be convicted even after leaving office, but it would be nice to clarify that 1) this is the scenario we are facing, and 2) noting that it may well be much harder to get pubs to convict with it being "not necessary" now that he has left.

    Georgia Senators won't be seated until the 22nd at earliest. And the Senate is already out of session until the 19th as is, and any Senator (like any member of the Sedition Caucus) can deny unanimous consent to prevent it from coming back earlier.

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
    Ticaldfjam
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    This was disputed earlier but I still don't see where I am wrong.

    Once the two Georgia Dems are sworn in, we have a 50/50 senate, yes?

    Pence remains the VP, and therefore casts the tiebreaking vote that keeps McConnell as the majority leader.

    Kamala does not replace Pence as VP until inaguration on the 20th, making her the tiebreaker that can hand majority control to Schumer.

    Ergo if McConnell's slow-ass interpretation of impeachment timetable rests on him remaining majority leader, he's going to remain majority leader until Trump is out of office, meaning he can delay impeachment trial until Trump is out of office.

    I'm aware that Trump can be convicted even after leaving office, but it would be nice to clarify that 1) this is the scenario we are facing, and 2) noting that it may well be much harder to get pubs to convict with it being "not necessary" now that he has left.

    Georgia Senators won't be seated until the 22nd at earliest. And the Senate is already out of session until the 19th as is, and any Senator (like any member of the Sedition Caucus) can deny unanimous consent to prevent it from coming back earlier.

    Once the House gives notice to the Senate that they have drafted and passed Articles of Impeachment the Senate is obligated to take them up. I forget if it is either the next day or the day after, but McConnell's interpretation is at best questionable.


    The Impeachment Process in the Senate
    https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46185

    moniker on
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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    This was disputed earlier but I still don't see where I am wrong.

    Once the two Georgia Dems are sworn in, we have a 50/50 senate, yes?

    Pence remains the VP, and therefore casts the tiebreaking vote that keeps McConnell as the majority leader.

    Kamala does not replace Pence as VP until inaguration on the 20th, making her the tiebreaker that can hand majority control to Schumer.

    Ergo if McConnell's slow-ass interpretation of impeachment timetable rests on him remaining majority leader, he's going to remain majority leader until Trump is out of office, meaning he can delay impeachment trial until Trump is out of office.

    I'm aware that Trump can be convicted even after leaving office, but it would be nice to clarify that 1) this is the scenario we are facing, and 2) noting that it may well be much harder to get pubs to convict with it being "not necessary" now that he has left.

    Georgia Senators won't be seated until the 22nd at earliest. And the Senate is already out of session until the 19th as is, and any Senator (like any member of the Sedition Caucus) can deny unanimous consent to prevent it from coming back earlier.

    Once the House gives notice to the Senate that they have drafted and passed Articles of Impeachment the Senate is obligated to take them up. I forget if it is either the next day or the day after, but McConnell's interpretation is at best questionable.


    The Impeachment Process in the Senate
    https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46185

    Well let's say McConnell has it wrong. Who is going to successfully dispute it and when? I think he's getting his delay either way.

    XaquinAbsoluteZero
  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    What is the Sedition Caucus?

    PSN: Honkalot
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    What is the Sedition Caucus?

    the gop minus romney and Murkowski

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    This was disputed earlier but I still don't see where I am wrong.

    Once the two Georgia Dems are sworn in, we have a 50/50 senate, yes?

    Pence remains the VP, and therefore casts the tiebreaking vote that keeps McConnell as the majority leader.

    Kamala does not replace Pence as VP until inaguration on the 20th, making her the tiebreaker that can hand majority control to Schumer.

    Ergo if McConnell's slow-ass interpretation of impeachment timetable rests on him remaining majority leader, he's going to remain majority leader until Trump is out of office, meaning he can delay impeachment trial until Trump is out of office.

    I'm aware that Trump can be convicted even after leaving office, but it would be nice to clarify that 1) this is the scenario we are facing, and 2) noting that it may well be much harder to get pubs to convict with it being "not necessary" now that he has left.

    Georgia Senators won't be seated until the 22nd at earliest. And the Senate is already out of session until the 19th as is, and any Senator (like any member of the Sedition Caucus) can deny unanimous consent to prevent it from coming back earlier.

    Once the House gives notice to the Senate that they have drafted and passed Articles of Impeachment the Senate is obligated to take them up. I forget if it is either the next day or the day after, but McConnell's interpretation is at best questionable.


    The Impeachment Process in the Senate
    https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46185

    Well let's say McConnell has it wrong. Who is going to successfully dispute it and when? I think he's getting his delay either way.

    The Senate Parliamentarian. Who will answer to Schumer in two weeks.

    shryke
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    More accurately, it's the senators and congresspeople who openly declared intent to challenge the results of the election to varying degrees. I believe a bunch signed onto some bullshit, but it's a spectrum, with the more egregious sorts really egging things on, long and short term.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    Honk wrote: »
    What is the Sedition Caucus?

    The Sedition Caucus is those who supported, aided, and encouraged this putsch by lying to their constituents that the election was rigged. The leaders are the House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Senators Hawley and Cruz who supported it to further their presidential ambitions.

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Honk wrote: »
    What is the Sedition Caucus?

    The Sedition Caucus is those who supported, aided, and encouraged this putsch by lying to their constituents that the election was rigged.

    That’s a huge amount of representatives.

    PSN: Honkalot
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  • jmcdonaldjmcdonald I voted, did you? DC(ish)Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    What is the Sedition Caucus?

    the gop minus romney and Murkowski
    Honk wrote: »
    What is the Sedition Caucus?

    The Sedition Caucus is those who supported, aided, and encouraged this putsch by lying to their constituents that the election was rigged. The leaders are the House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Senators Hawley and Cruz who supported it to further their presidential ambitions.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    Honk wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    What is the Sedition Caucus?

    The Sedition Caucus is those who supported, aided, and encouraged this putsch by lying to their constituents that the election was rigged.

    That’s a huge amount of representatives.

    It's about 3/4 of the House GOP and 1/4 of the Senate GOP, if we limit it to those who voted to challenge at least one state, or were planning to before the insurrection. After the insurrection it gets knocked down to like 80 members of the House and 8 Senators (I think @moniker missed Rick Scott voting to challenge the Pennsylvania results)

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  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    So if I'm understanding this, Trump can be impeached while in office, but convicted after leaving office, in which case the "removal" is toothless but prevents him from holding office again?

    I'm fine with this.

    Although... Donald Trump fucking up the 2024 GOP primary would certainly be an entertaining clownshow.

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Delzhand wrote: »
    So if I'm understanding this, Trump can be impeached while in office, but convicted after leaving office, in which case the "removal" is toothless but prevents him from holding office again?

    I'm fine with this.

    Although... Donald Trump fucking up the 2024 GOP primary would certainly be an entertaining clownshow.

    I thought this in 2016. Would rather that chance not come round again.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Delzhand wrote: »
    So if I'm understanding this, Trump can be impeached while in office, but convicted after leaving office, in which case the "removal" is toothless but prevents him from holding office again?

    I'm fine with this.

    Although... Donald Trump fucking up the 2024 GOP primary would certainly be an entertaining clownshow.

    He can probably be impeached after he leaves office too. But yes, a conviction would mean he's barred from holding federal office forever, regardless of when it happens.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    What is the Sedition Caucus?

    The Sedition Caucus is those who supported, aided, and encouraged this putsch by lying to their constituents that the election was rigged.

    That’s a huge amount of representatives.

    It's about 3/4 of the House GOP and 1/4 of the Senate GOP, if we limit it to those who voted to challenge at least one state, or were planning to before the insurrection. After the insurrection it gets knocked down to like 80 members of the House and 8 Senators (I think moniker missed Rick Scott voting to challenge the Pennsylvania results)

    Thanks. I went off the first roll call vote and am adding district information by hand. So it's a bit of work. But precision is necessary when it comes to traitors.

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  • AlazullAlazull Your body is not a temple, it's an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.Registered User regular
    edited January 12
    Delzhand wrote: »
    So if I'm understanding this, Trump can be impeached while in office, but convicted after leaving office, in which case the "removal" is toothless but prevents him from holding office again?

    I'm fine with this.

    Although... Donald Trump fucking up the 2024 GOP primary would certainly be an entertaining clownshow.

    Also removes his pension, his travel spending allowance, and removes his Secret Service detail for life.

    So beyond just making it so he can't run again, it also prevents taxpayer money being further spent by this waste of flesh.

    EDIT: Apparently most of this has proven to be untrue, or at the very least unclear. Still not worthless to impeach the asshole.

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  • chrisnlchrisnl Registered User regular
    I feel that this second impeachment is completely necessary, because I want a record of exactly which Republicans are okay with what Trump did. I do not expect a conviction, either before or after January 20th, despite this being (another) clear cut case where Trump deserves to be convicted. Prove me wrong, Senate Republicans!

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Alazull wrote: »
    Delzhand wrote: »
    So if I'm understanding this, Trump can be impeached while in office, but convicted after leaving office, in which case the "removal" is toothless but prevents him from holding office again?

    I'm fine with this.

    Although... Donald Trump fucking up the 2024 GOP primary would certainly be an entertaining clownshow.

    Also removes his pension, his travel spending allowance, and removes his Secret Service detail for life.

    So beyond just making it so he can't run again, it also prevents taxpayer money being further spent by this waste of flesh.

    He's already been milking the government for money via charging the secret service for staying in his buildings while protecting him. I see no world in which he doesn't continue to do that. Would be nice to stop it.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    so far the fallout from all of these events has been stronger than any one of us here really expected it to be, and the consequences for perpetrators more severe than expected

    so i'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised by this second go at impeachment

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  • SyngyneSyngyne Registered User regular
    Alazull wrote: »
    Delzhand wrote: »
    So if I'm understanding this, Trump can be impeached while in office, but convicted after leaving office, in which case the "removal" is toothless but prevents him from holding office again?

    I'm fine with this.

    Although... Donald Trump fucking up the 2024 GOP primary would certainly be an entertaining clownshow.

    Also removes his pension, his travel spending allowance, and removes his Secret Service detail for life.

    So beyond just making it so he can't run again, it also prevents taxpayer money being further spent by this waste of flesh.

    I have to wonder if removing his Secret Service detail would be a good thing... once he's no longer president, wouldn't it be good to have a constant set of eyes on him?

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    chrisnl wrote: »
    I feel that this second impeachment is completely necessary, because I want a record of exactly which Republicans are okay with what Trump did. I do not expect a conviction, either before or after January 20th, despite this being (another) clear cut case where Trump deserves to be convicted. Prove me wrong, Senate Republicans!
    I think the second impeachment is totes necessary. Not because I think McConnell will hold the vote for it. But it’s necessary so that the threat of it is apparent. Now will that threat help solicit some level of presidential compliance? Or prevent him from just firing off a cruise missile at Iran or China for reasons?

    Unsure. But it is useful by itself.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Syngyne wrote: »
    Alazull wrote: »
    Delzhand wrote: »
    So if I'm understanding this, Trump can be impeached while in office, but convicted after leaving office, in which case the "removal" is toothless but prevents him from holding office again?

    I'm fine with this.

    Although... Donald Trump fucking up the 2024 GOP primary would certainly be an entertaining clownshow.

    Also removes his pension, his travel spending allowance, and removes his Secret Service detail for life.

    So beyond just making it so he can't run again, it also prevents taxpayer money being further spent by this waste of flesh.

    I have to wonder if removing his Secret Service detail would be a good thing... once he's no longer president, wouldn't it be good to have a constant set of eyes on him?

    We can accomplish that by putting him in prison. You know, for the crimes he did.

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  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    so far the fallout from all of these events has been stronger than any one of us here really expected it to be, and the consequences for perpetrators more severe than expected

    so i'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised by this second go at impeachment


    I think there's a non-zero chance of conviction. It's not high, maybe 10%? Way, way higher than the first time around, when it was always DOA.

    A lot of Senate Republicans are *furious*. Trump really did almost get them killed.

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  • MillMill Registered User regular
    chrisnl wrote: »
    I feel that this second impeachment is completely necessary, because I want a record of exactly which Republicans are okay with what Trump did. I do not expect a conviction, either before or after January 20th, despite this being (another) clear cut case where Trump deserves to be convicted. Prove me wrong, Senate Republicans!

    The vote would give House and Senate leaders a good idea on how they need to structure the day where they do the expulsion votes. If the GOP proves to be as shitty as many of us believe, then they'll know to tee up the censure votes to swiftly follow afterwards because think those only need a simple majority, but could be wrong. Cruz is probably the only fucker within the sedition caucus that has like an 80% of being expelled because everyone fucking hates. All of them need to be expelled though, but it probably won't happen.

    Also getting their names on record means someone can put together the PACs and super PACs that will raise money and constantly campaign to get them out of office until they are gone.

    Finally, it'll help someone maybe organize things so that these fuckers can always be miserable in DC. Hell, they should be made to feel miserable anywhere in the US. These assholes shouldn't be welcomed in any business and anytime they try to do business, they should be told "sorry traitor, we don't serve your kind here."

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  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    edited January 10
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/09/politics/donald-trump-impeachment-lawyers-dershowitz-giuliani/index.html
    lol the traitor in chief wants giuliani and dershowitz to defend him in the senate
    this is gonna be such a shit show, hopefully harris will be around to cross examine giuliani prosecutor to prosecutor
    i wonder if we're gonna get another call for trial by combat

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    so far the fallout from all of these events has been stronger than any one of us here really expected it to be, and the consequences for perpetrators more severe than expected

    so i'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised by this second go at impeachment


    I think there's a non-zero chance of conviction. It's not high, maybe 10%? Way, way higher than the first time around, when it was always DOA.

    A lot of Senate Republicans are *furious*. Trump really did almost get them killed.

    If he’s actually convicted I might frame a copy of the articles and hang them up like people do with the Lords Prayer.

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  • AlazullAlazull Your body is not a temple, it's an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.Registered User regular
    Syngyne wrote: »
    Alazull wrote: »
    Delzhand wrote: »
    So if I'm understanding this, Trump can be impeached while in office, but convicted after leaving office, in which case the "removal" is toothless but prevents him from holding office again?

    I'm fine with this.

    Although... Donald Trump fucking up the 2024 GOP primary would certainly be an entertaining clownshow.

    Also removes his pension, his travel spending allowance, and removes his Secret Service detail for life.

    So beyond just making it so he can't run again, it also prevents taxpayer money being further spent by this waste of flesh.

    I have to wonder if removing his Secret Service detail would be a good thing... once he's no longer president, wouldn't it be good to have a constant set of eyes on him?

    There's plenty of ways that our government could continue to keep an eye on Trump after impeachment.

    In fact, it'd probably be even easier because if he continues be a problem he could be classified as a domestic terrorist easily. Then the very thin veneer our intelligence agencies maintain about domestic surveillance comes off.

    And let's be honest here, the man is too stupid, vain and lazy to truly be capable of subtle planning.

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  • AbsalonAbsalon Registered User regular
    Former VPs do not get lifetime guard detail. Those who have been POTUS even for half a day will get it, though. Pence should be informed given how Trump's closest fans are feeling right now.

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Syngyne wrote: »
    Alazull wrote: »
    Delzhand wrote: »
    So if I'm understanding this, Trump can be impeached while in office, but convicted after leaving office, in which case the "removal" is toothless but prevents him from holding office again?

    I'm fine with this.

    Although... Donald Trump fucking up the 2024 GOP primary would certainly be an entertaining clownshow.

    Also removes his pension, his travel spending allowance, and removes his Secret Service detail for life.

    So beyond just making it so he can't run again, it also prevents taxpayer money being further spent by this waste of flesh.

    I have to wonder if removing his Secret Service detail would be a good thing... once he's no longer president, wouldn't it be good to have a constant set of eyes on him?

    We can accomplish that by putting him in prison. You know, for the crimes he did.

    Also Secret Service security details are there to protect their principal not report what they are doing.

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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    This was disputed earlier but I still don't see where I am wrong.

    Once the two Georgia Dems are sworn in, we have a 50/50 senate, yes?

    Pence remains the VP, and therefore casts the tiebreaking vote that keeps McConnell as the majority leader.

    Kamala does not replace Pence as VP until inaguration on the 20th, making her the tiebreaker that can hand majority control to Schumer.

    Ergo if McConnell's slow-ass interpretation of impeachment timetable rests on him remaining majority leader, he's going to remain majority leader until Trump is out of office, meaning he can delay impeachment trial until Trump is out of office.

    I'm aware that Trump can be convicted even after leaving office, but it would be nice to clarify that 1) this is the scenario we are facing, and 2) noting that it may well be much harder to get pubs to convict with it being "not necessary" now that he has left.

    Georgia Senators won't be seated until the 22nd at earliest. And the Senate is already out of session until the 19th as is, and any Senator (like any member of the Sedition Caucus) can deny unanimous consent to prevent it from coming back earlier.

    Once the House gives notice to the Senate that they have drafted and passed Articles of Impeachment the Senate is obligated to take them up. I forget if it is either the next day or the day after, but McConnell's interpretation is at best questionable.


    The Impeachment Process in the Senate
    https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46185

    Well let's say McConnell has it wrong. Who is going to successfully dispute it and when? I think he's getting his delay either way.

    The Senate Parliamentarian. Who will answer to Schumer in two weeks.

    Who can be overridden by he Presiding Officer or simple majority. If the rules actually require immediately taking it up (I've heard this but never seen the citation) McConnel could very easily delay the vote until after Trump's Presidency. The only way that is avoided is if there's a non trivial number of GOP Senators that want it earlier bad enough to threaten the evil turtle

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  • ChanusChanus I've seen things... Registered User regular
    PantsB wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    This was disputed earlier but I still don't see where I am wrong.

    Once the two Georgia Dems are sworn in, we have a 50/50 senate, yes?

    Pence remains the VP, and therefore casts the tiebreaking vote that keeps McConnell as the majority leader.

    Kamala does not replace Pence as VP until inaguration on the 20th, making her the tiebreaker that can hand majority control to Schumer.

    Ergo if McConnell's slow-ass interpretation of impeachment timetable rests on him remaining majority leader, he's going to remain majority leader until Trump is out of office, meaning he can delay impeachment trial until Trump is out of office.

    I'm aware that Trump can be convicted even after leaving office, but it would be nice to clarify that 1) this is the scenario we are facing, and 2) noting that it may well be much harder to get pubs to convict with it being "not necessary" now that he has left.

    Georgia Senators won't be seated until the 22nd at earliest. And the Senate is already out of session until the 19th as is, and any Senator (like any member of the Sedition Caucus) can deny unanimous consent to prevent it from coming back earlier.

    Once the House gives notice to the Senate that they have drafted and passed Articles of Impeachment the Senate is obligated to take them up. I forget if it is either the next day or the day after, but McConnell's interpretation is at best questionable.


    The Impeachment Process in the Senate
    https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46185

    Well let's say McConnell has it wrong. Who is going to successfully dispute it and when? I think he's getting his delay either way.

    The Senate Parliamentarian. Who will answer to Schumer in two weeks.

    Who can be overridden by he Presiding Officer or simple majority. If the rules actually require immediately taking it up (I've heard this but never seen the citation) McConnel could very easily delay the vote until after Trump's Presidency. The only way that is avoided is if there's a non trivial number of GOP Senators that want it earlier bad enough to threaten the evil turtle

    my understanding is the Senate just needs to begin the trial by a date set by the House. beyond that, how long it takes is basically up to them

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • chrisnlchrisnl Registered User regular
    It's frustrating that the US Senate is doing Pro Forma sessions until the 19th, and to actually do business before the 19th would require a unanimous vote of all US Senators which is clearly not going to happen. So Mitch has once again protected his caucus from having to make a damaging vote apparently.

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  • ChanusChanus I've seen things... Registered User regular
    chrisnl wrote: »
    It's frustrating that the US Senate is doing Pro Forma sessions until the 19th, and to actually do business before the 19th would require a unanimous vote of all US Senators which is clearly not going to happen. So Mitch has once again protected his caucus from having to make a damaging vote apparently.

    it is worth noting the Senate doesn't get to choose to ignore articles of impeachment like they can with most everything else

    they can just drag it out though

    i'm curious what the optics of that will be and if pressure can be applied to force a vote

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    I watched them adjourn live on Wednesday night/Thursday morning. And I was grumpy no Democrat objected.

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