[Second Impeachment] of the 45th President of the United States | Trial: 1pm 02/08/2021

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    I think the first article in the impeachment might take a lot longer to prove than the second, because it was done in secret. Maybe that's why they now think they need 100 days.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Yeah, I could see an argument for like a week or 2, but saying "over 3 months away" is just a massive mistake.

    Now, I expect Clyburn may change his mind, because a bunch of leadership does seem to want this, but who knows.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    I think the first article in the impeachment might take a lot longer to prove than the second, because it was done in secret. Maybe that's why they now think they need 100 days.

    That's not the one being voted on (probably). The one being voted on has a single count: incitement to insurrection.

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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »

    I will officially introduce two articles of impeachment against Donald J. Trump tomorrow.

    1) Abuse of power for attempting to overturn the election results in Georgia.
    2) Incitement of violence for orchestrating an attempted coup against our country.

    via MN Rep Ilhan Omar

    The Raskin/Lieu/Cicilline version with 200 co-sponsors is the one that's probably getting adopted.

    This is sort of what I mean about things still "working" over the weekend. I really doubt that congress is kicking back in an airchair right now than having frantic meetings to see who is out on monday due to the COVID outbreak, who is on board for which bill, who needs to be signed on as a co-sponsor and who doesn't want to be due to the electoral situation in their district, when the trial needs to be, etc.

    The house 100% has as diverse opinions on that topic as we do here, and there are only a dozen or so of us posting here right now. Between now and Monday they need a united front to put to the table their impeachment plan.

    CelestialBadger
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    There is an argument that doing the impeachment trial when there is a DoJ that is able to investigate and provide evidence instead of 'lol no' has some real value.

    As does being able to subpoena administration officials and have them show up for hearings under the threat of real contempt charges.

    I just feel like at this point it is clear cut enough that as long as McConnell isn't able to spike it, we should move forward with all haste. We can appoint a commission to really dig into it later.

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  • ChanusChanus I've seen things... Registered User regular
    worth thinking about the fact Clyburn is leadership, but he's the House whip

    the House vote is not reasonably in question. their ship is pretty tightly run

    what happens after Monday, assuming action is wanted to be taken, and i think it is, depends entirely on what the Senate looks able to do

    if McConnell has a lock on his caucus then calls for rapid action are just demanding it fail sooner

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    The problem is we're going into this Congress with 3 major crises (that all have major systemic effects) that all deserve immediate, day 1 attention.

    First there's the pandemic killing 4k people a day that has a vaccine whose roll out is being criticized from all angles.

    There's the looming economic apocalypse where real estate and the market are going to get their long overdue correction in a massive wave of evictions and loan defaults if something isn't done.

    And then there's the band of fascist jackals knocking on the door of (moderately) democratic government in a bid to install an ethnostate.

    Honestly the last one is the most pressing if you can divorce yourself from immediate human cost - the fascists will destroy many more lives if they fully seize power in the coming years.

    But our media sucks and the general public is worse. If you can take action on the first two and still get to the third while things are still current, then good luck.

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  • TetraNitroCubaneTetraNitroCubane The Djinnerator At the bottom of a bottleRegistered User regular
    edited January 10
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    A 100 day pause on any action is beyond idiotic. There's no way that at that point it won't just look like petty politicking. I seriously doubt you'd even be able to get people like Romney or Murkowski (who are showing willingness now) on board at that point, and you'd probably even lose a bunch of Democrats as well.

    It's just....so stupid.

    You wait 100 days, you change the narrative considerably.

    If it happens now people will be talking about incitement to violence.

    If it happens 100 days from now, the entire media will frame it as "Why are the Democrats being this petty? Trump's been gone for months!"

    The optics of Impeachment are fucking important. Right now they are critical, because if we sweep this away for 100 days, we are leave the door open so that this will happen again.

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  • ChanusChanus I've seen things... Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    There is an argument that doing the impeachment trial when there is a DoJ that is able to investigate and provide evidence instead of 'lol no' has some real value.

    As does being able to subpoena administration officials and have them show up for hearings under the threat of real contempt charges.

    I just feel like at this point it is clear cut enough that as long as McConnell isn't able to spike it, we should move forward with all haste. We can appoint a commission to really dig into it later.

    also i would hope nobody is foolhardy enough to bring specific federal charges while Trump still has the power of the pardon available to him

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    There is an argument that doing the impeachment trial when there is a DoJ that is able to investigate and provide evidence instead of 'lol no' has some real value.

    As does being able to subpoena administration officials and have them show up for hearings under the threat of real contempt charges.

    I just feel like at this point it is clear cut enough that as long as McConnell isn't able to spike it, we should move forward with all haste. We can appoint a commission to really dig into it later.

    also i would hope nobody is foolhardy enough to bring specific federal charges while Trump still has the power of the pardon available to him

    Except in cases of impeachment. SOOOOOOOOOO

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  • ChanusChanus I've seen things... Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    There is an argument that doing the impeachment trial when there is a DoJ that is able to investigate and provide evidence instead of 'lol no' has some real value.

    As does being able to subpoena administration officials and have them show up for hearings under the threat of real contempt charges.

    I just feel like at this point it is clear cut enough that as long as McConnell isn't able to spike it, we should move forward with all haste. We can appoint a commission to really dig into it later.

    also i would hope nobody is foolhardy enough to bring specific federal charges while Trump still has the power of the pardon available to him

    Except in cases of impeachment. SOOOOOOOOOO

    i guess i was thinking more broadly that if we don't see federal charges against any of the politicians involved before Trump is gone, it would make sense why not

    assuming we see any at all, all we know currently is they are being looked at

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    There is an argument that doing the impeachment trial when there is a DoJ that is able to investigate and provide evidence instead of 'lol no' has some real value.

    As does being able to subpoena administration officials and have them show up for hearings under the threat of real contempt charges.

    I just feel like at this point it is clear cut enough that as long as McConnell isn't able to spike it, we should move forward with all haste. We can appoint a commission to really dig into it later.

    also i would hope nobody is foolhardy enough to bring specific federal charges while Trump still has the power of the pardon available to him

    Except in cases of impeachment. SOOOOOOOOOO

    I'm assuming a pardon - all debates about how SCOTUS rules on it aside - would protect him from later criminal prosecution, just not the political consequences of impeachment.

  • ChanusChanus I've seen things... Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    A 100 day pause on any action is beyond idiotic. There's no way that at that point it won't just look like petty politicking. I seriously doubt you'd even be able to get people like Romney or Murkowski (who are showing willingness now) on board at that point, and you'd probably even lose a bunch of Democrats as well.

    It's just....so stupid.

    You wait 100 days, you change the narrative considerably.

    If it happens now people will be talking about incitement to violence.

    If it happens 100 days from now, the entire media will frame it as "Why are the Democrats being this petty? Trump's been gone for months!"

    The optics of Impeachment are fucking important. Right now they are critical, because if we sweep this away for 100 days, we are leave the door open so that this will happen again.

    i dunno, they dragged out Benghazi for four years

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • ChanusChanus I've seen things... Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    There is an argument that doing the impeachment trial when there is a DoJ that is able to investigate and provide evidence instead of 'lol no' has some real value.

    As does being able to subpoena administration officials and have them show up for hearings under the threat of real contempt charges.

    I just feel like at this point it is clear cut enough that as long as McConnell isn't able to spike it, we should move forward with all haste. We can appoint a commission to really dig into it later.

    also i would hope nobody is foolhardy enough to bring specific federal charges while Trump still has the power of the pardon available to him

    Except in cases of impeachment. SOOOOOOOOOO

    I'm assuming a pardon - all debates about how SCOTUS rules on it aside - would protect him from later criminal prosecution, just not the political consequences of impeachment.

    he arguably cannot issue a pardon that would obstruct impeachment, but that is also one of those "because no one has actually tried yet" things

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    A 100 day pause on any action is beyond idiotic. There's no way that at that point it won't just look like petty politicking. I seriously doubt you'd even be able to get people like Romney or Murkowski (who are showing willingness now) on board at that point, and you'd probably even lose a bunch of Democrats as well.

    It's just....so stupid.

    You wait 100 days, you change the narrative considerably.

    If it happens now people will be talking about incitement to violence.

    If it happens 100 days from now, the entire media will frame it as "Why are the Democrats being this petty? Trump's been gone for months!"

    The optics of Impeachment are fucking important. Right now they are critical, because if we sweep this away for 100 days, we are leave the door open so that this will happen again.

    i dunno, they dragged out Benghazi for four years

    Yes, but it just bubbled on in the background and didn't get in the way of business.

  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know Texas booniesRegistered User regular
    Elki wrote: »
    I don’t think anyone will seriously take the idea of Republicans feeling pressure to remove Trump when Democrats are talking about their own senate looking at it in May.

    I mean, I don't take seriously the idea of Republicans feeling pressure to remove Trump at all right now.

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    There is an argument that doing the impeachment trial when there is a DoJ that is able to investigate and provide evidence instead of 'lol no' has some real value.

    As does being able to subpoena administration officials and have them show up for hearings under the threat of real contempt charges.

    I just feel like at this point it is clear cut enough that as long as McConnell isn't able to spike it, we should move forward with all haste. We can appoint a commission to really dig into it later.

    also i would hope nobody is foolhardy enough to bring specific federal charges while Trump still has the power of the pardon available to him

    Except in cases of impeachment. SOOOOOOOOOO

    I'm assuming a pardon - all debates about how SCOTUS rules on it aside - would protect him from later criminal prosecution, just not the political consequences of impeachment.

    he arguably cannot issue a pardon that would obstruct impeachment, but that is also one of those "because no one has actually tried yet" things

    I'm not saying it would obstruct impeachment.

    "I pardon myself. No jail for me!"

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    It doesn’t fucking matter.

    This is an urgent need. Pelosi went in front of cameras last week and said removing Trump from office and keeping him from holding office again was an urgent need, and she was correct. Delaying for 100 days makes her and the rest of the Democrats look like they are playing politics during a time when the majority of the country (and also the legislature!) supports immediate action. And it would look like playing politics because that’s what it is.

    Like, FFS, just do the right thing here. It’s both easy and morally correct. I expect this kind of fecklessness from Mike Pence, not Democratic leadership!

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  • ChanusChanus I've seen things... Registered User regular
    It doesn’t fucking matter.

    This is an urgent need. Pelosi went in front of cameras last week and said removing Trump from office and keeping him from holding office again was an urgent need, and she was correct. Delaying for 100 days makes her and the rest of the Democrats look like they are playing politics during a time when the majority of the country (and also the legislature!) supports immediate action. And it would look like playing politics because that’s what it is.

    Like, FFS, just do the right thing here. It’s both easy and morally correct. I expect this kind of fecklessness from Mike Pence, not Democratic leadership!

    not expecting fecklessness from Democratic leadership is on you, bud

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    It doesn’t fucking matter.

    This is an urgent need. Pelosi went in front of cameras last week and said removing Trump from office and keeping him from holding office again was an urgent need, and she was correct. Delaying for 100 days makes her and the rest of the Democrats look like they are playing politics during a time when the majority of the country (and also the legislature!) supports immediate action. And it would look like playing politics because that’s what it is.

    Like, FFS, just do the right thing here. It’s both easy and morally correct. I expect this kind of fecklessness from Mike Pence, not Democratic leadership!

    not expecting fecklessness from Democratic leadership is on you, bud

    I expect a totally different kind of fecklessness from Democratic leadership

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    I guessed something like this would happen. Dem leadership loves dragging their feet.

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  • TetraNitroCubaneTetraNitroCubane The Djinnerator At the bottom of a bottleRegistered User regular
    I don't expect much from the Democratic leadership, but hooo boy is it a thing to go on the world stage and say "This man is a threat to our entire nation, and he must be removed immediately because he can cause severe damage in the next few weeks" and then turn right around and say "Meh, we'll get around to it a few months from now".

    Like... The disconnect there is phenomenal. Even if it's a doomed effort, you need to move with speed that matches your intent.

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  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know Texas booniesRegistered User regular
    I mean I agree there shouldn't be a delay in that they should go ahead and get this symbolic gesture that will amount to fuck all over with and use the limited time frame they have to get some work done fixing the countless messes they have on their plate before midterms.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    I don't expect much from the Democratic leadership, but hooo boy is it a thing to go on the world stage and say "This man is a threat to our entire nation, and he must be removed immediately because he can cause severe damage in the next few weeks" and then turn right around and say "Meh, we'll get around to it a few months from now".

    Like... The disconnect there is phenomenal. Even if it's a doomed effort, you need to move with speed that matches your intent.

    This really is exactly how so much oversight worked during Trump's time in offfice. "Oh wow this looks like a really big and immediate crime, they better have answers at the meeting we've scheduled for 4 months from now."

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    edited January 10
    I don't expect much from the Democratic leadership, but hooo boy is it a thing to go on the world stage and say "This man is a threat to our entire nation, and he must be removed immediately because he can cause severe damage in the next few weeks" and then turn right around and say "Meh, we'll get around to it a few months from now".

    Like... The disconnect there is phenomenal. Even if it's a doomed effort, you need to move with speed that matches your intent.

    This really is exactly how so much oversight worked during Trump's time in offfice. "Oh wow this looks like a really big and immediate crime, they better have answers at the meeting we've scheduled for 4 months from now."

    The US government seems to be designed to work this way to prevent hasty and stupid decisions. Trump has taken full advantage. By constantly doing crimes at a very rapid pace, the government cannot keep up. Nixon made the mistake of only doing 1 or 2 crimes.

    It's a political Denial of Service attack.

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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    I don't expect much from the Democratic leadership, but hooo boy is it a thing to go on the world stage and say "This man is a threat to our entire nation, and he must be removed immediately because he can cause severe damage in the next few weeks" and then turn right around and say "Meh, we'll get around to it a few months from now".

    Like... The disconnect there is phenomenal. Even if it's a doomed effort, you need to move with speed that matches your intent.

    This really is exactly how so much oversight worked during Trump's time in offfice. "Oh wow this looks like a really big and immediate crime, they better have answers at the meeting we've scheduled for 4 months from now."

    That's American bureaucracy

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  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    Like, the only reason I think you delay, is if you have inside information that the House and Senate Sedition members are going to be charged and arrested in the intervening time. Then I think you delay, because you'll have all the news headlines about that, plus have removed the loudest voices of opposition.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    There are downsides to not updating your system when horse-drawn carriages are no longer the fastest way for nobles to get around.

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    I don't expect much from the Democratic leadership, but hooo boy is it a thing to go on the world stage and say "This man is a threat to our entire nation, and he must be removed immediately because he can cause severe damage in the next few weeks" and then turn right around and say "Meh, we'll get around to it a few months from now".

    Like... The disconnect there is phenomenal. Even if it's a doomed effort, you need to move with speed that matches your intent.

    This really is exactly how so much oversight worked during Trump's time in offfice. "Oh wow this looks like a really big and immediate crime, they better have answers at the meeting we've scheduled for 4 months from now."

    The US government seems to be designed to work this way to prevent hasty and stupid decisions. Trump has taken full advantage. By constantly doing crimes at a very rapid pace, the government cannot keep up. Nixon made the mistake of only doing 1 or 2 crimes.

    It's a political Denial of Service attack.

    I think it's designed to *be able* to work that way, which is an important distinction. The government can move as quickly or as slowly as it is inclined.

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Honestly, just don’t do it if you’re gonna delay it this much. Either do it now, or literally forget about it and move on, water under the bridge.

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    I imagine investigations will be what takes the longest. Not necessarily 100 days long, but I imagine it’s going to take a bit of time for the FBI to investigate what all happened behind the scenes and piece it together. Also, Biden will need to fire the anyone Trump installed that will inevitably try to stop it.

    Again, I don’t just want Trump. He’s not the only one complicit in this and I want them all.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited January 10
    Itll look stupid as shit to crack this back open in fucking April.

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Itll look stupid as shit to crack this back open in fucking April.

    May.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    I don’t think anyone will seriously take the idea of Republicans feeling pressure to remove Trump when Democrats are talking about their own senate looking at it in May.

    I mean, I don't take seriously the idea of Republicans feeling pressure to remove Trump at all right now.

    Yeah, the only possible change the timeline makes is whether McConnell controls the Senate or not. Weight whatever that means against the value of not letting the public and the media move on to another story.

    Either way I don't expect this to matter at all by the time the 2022 midterms come around.

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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Like I can understand a delay till like mid February at most cause McConnell is a horse's ass. Just wait till the 21st get in, get everyone sat, speedrun a cabinet real quick, convict trump and remove his after presidency perks and ability to run for office ever again, then do all the other shit. Like i know we got a pandemic and related economic turmoil to deal with, but without doing this there's no fuckin country anymore cause apparently attempts to overthrow it aren't punished.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Like I can understand a delay till like mid February at most cause McConnell is a horse's ass. Just wait till the 21st get in, get everyone sat, speedrun a cabinet real quick, convict trump and remove his after presidency perks and ability to run for office ever again, then do all the other shit. Like i know we got a pandemic and related economic turmoil to deal with, but without doing this there's no fuckin country anymore cause apparently attempts to overthrow it aren't punished.

    Also expulsion votes for Cruz and Hawley. And most of the fucking House GOP.

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  • cursedkingcursedking Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    worth thinking about the fact Clyburn is leadership, but he's the House whip

    the House vote is not reasonably in question. their ship is pretty tightly run

    what happens after Monday, assuming action is wanted to be taken, and i think it is, depends entirely on what the Senate looks able to do

    if McConnell has a lock on his caucus then calls for rapid action are just demanding it fail sooner

    I think it is much, much more important that it fail in the senate immediately than drag out for three months to impeach someone who is no longer in office.

    the iron is hot now, the shot at getting him out of office was through the 25th and it's not happening. The dems need to force a vote this week and then use the results of that vote as a hammer for the next midterms or until the end of time.

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  • thatassemblyguythatassemblyguy he/him Gorman 2036Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Democrats can literally do nothing other than what they are currently doing and you are getting mad at them for doing the only thing they can

    They obviously can.

    what can they do?

    Bring the articles of impeachment forward ASAP.

    I understood the point being made earlier in the week. And even accepted it.

    I forgot the main problem:

    Republicans have a winning strategy of doing nothing and getting away with it because they’re playing Calvin Ball. They always operate in bad faith.

    During the presser it; Pence had already ghosted Pelosi and Schumer. They knew the 25th was off the table and that pressure wasn’t going to change anything.

    The only thing delaying the impeachment has done is give MAGA the time to come out with the more adult Trump video and start the “healing” rhetoric.

    Had they brought the articles of impeachment out immediately the argument against the video could very much be: “Trump changes tune to avoid consequences; the only way you heal and move forward is to hold those responsible for insurrection responsible.” It’s a bold concrete move that the authoritarian minds of the MAGA crowd would understand.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    I am not entirely sure why everyone is taking it as gospel truth that what Clyburn floated on CNN is now the only thing that could conceivably happen this week and are going from there.

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  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Like I can understand a delay till like mid February at most cause McConnell is a horse's ass. Just wait till the 21st get in, get everyone sat, speedrun a cabinet real quick, convict trump and remove his after presidency perks and ability to run for office ever again, then do all the other shit. Like i know we got a pandemic and related economic turmoil to deal with, but without doing this there's no fuckin country anymore cause apparently attempts to overthrow it aren't punished.

    A lot of the doomsaying is also contingent on like, there being nothing that comes out that further inflames the outrage and/or damns Trump and his zillion goons. No subpoena'ed phone records about the people he was calling during the riot (we already know Rudy was trying to support it), no court testimonials from any of the dozens of crazy-ass coup people saying they were responding specifically to what he was saying, no records of threats of specific violence by them coming out from any of the tech companies wanting to get on the Dem's good side, and god forbid, no further major terrorist acts, etc etc. And fuck only knows what Trump himself will be doing in the interim too. If he still had access to his social media, no doubt adding further fuel to the fire.

    I can see the merits in immediately impeaching him in the House now, and if McConnell is going to punt, then the Senate appointing a special counsel to get all the shit above put together for a proper trial. But they'd need to be pretty up front about what their plan is and what they were doing in the interim (ie, addressing the other crises, which Rs may throw a wrench in unless filibuster is nuked), and there needs to be a regular plan for an update to the horrid shit these assclowns have been doing. Like if the plan was "First two weeks: Covid, cabinet, and expulsion of sedition senators. Second two weeks: Economic/Rent/Healthcare stimulus. Week four to six: Hearings on and trial of Donald Trump," that feels like a timeline that could be sold.

    Sleep
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