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Cyberpunk 2077 | Enemies, like dogs, cannot look up

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Posts

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    I guess I'm a bit more charitable towards the game than most, since I didn't follow a lot of the marketing or pre-release promises in an attempt to avoid hype. To me, I see it as a [very] flawed gem similar to Dragon's Age 2. Both were flawed games with serious release timeline issues, but still accomplished some great things. Dragon's Age 2 is primarily known well for its excellent characters and companions' stories, but repetitive levels, and a jumbled, incoherent main storyline. Cyberpunk 2077 is similar in that it has some great characters, amazing character animations and very well acted dialogue, a solid and compelling, if linear, storyline that fits the main themes. At the same time CDPR was a small studio trying to accomplish something on the level of GTAV or RDR2, and just did not have the time, resources, or management to actually pull it off. So we were left with a game that did a lot of what CDPR does well (telling compelling stories), but flawed with many many bugs, many cuts to promises made. Ultimately, I also think CDPR was a victim of their own success. I'm not sure if any game could live up to the hype and scrutiny following the magnum opus that was Witcher 3.

    DA2 was made in less then 2 years. These guys had ostensibly started working on this 8 years ago.

    Also while there were issues with DA2's mechanics (the waves being the most aggregious) the game itself was actually functional and didn't crash on a routine basis.

    Jubal77PreacherHappy Little MachineEtiowsaSkeithOlivaw
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited January 18
    i mean

    oblivion had npcs with their own daily routines...?

    this is hardly something that is impossible or revolutionary, its just a fucking ballache to implement that needs a lot of backend work and most players completely ignore. i am kind of baffled by how people think this is some bizzare thing to have promised - the reason its not in is that cp2077 has almost no emergent systems of any kind because all the systems had to be fucked into shape at the last minute to get the fucking thing running, and agent-based systems always take a bunch of time to fiddle with

    pr is always aspirational; its just that usually theres enough of a connection between the studio development procedure and pr that the process of stuffing the in-development game into a shippable state gets you something that 80% matches rather than sub 50% because you cut dev short by like 2 years

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    i mean

    oblivion had npcs with their own daily routines...?

    this is hardly something that is impossible or revolutionary, its just a fucking ballache to implement that needs a lot of backend work and most players completely ignore. i am kind of baffled by how people think this is some bizzare thing to have promised - the reason its not in is that cp2077 has almost no emergent systems of any kind because all the systems had to be fucked into shape at the last minute to get the fucking thing running, and agent-based systems always take a bunch of time to fiddle with

    pr is always aspirational; its just that usually theres enough of a connection between the studio development procedure and pr that the process of stuffing the in-development game into a shippable state gets you something that 80% matches rather than sub 50% because you cut dev short by like 2 years

    I agree that It's about best light with your advertiesements, but this is well short of what we actually got; the hacking system is far more rudmentary, abilities and options (wall hanging) were never implemented, NPC's were supposed to be far more interactive and important (angry joe persistently brings up how you were supposed to have far more robust options for dealing with cops)... Like if you're going to brag about the complexity of your project you better be able to deliver on it.

  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    I think if it was even partially there people wouldn't have much of an issue with it. But the system flat out doesn't exist. It's insane all the bullshit they sold everyone and then wonder why everyone's upset at them.

    GaddezZilla360PreacherOlivaw
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited January 18
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
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  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    Yeah I can you that right now the devs have 0 say and power on what can and cannot be done. I say this as a senior developer in the non-gaming field. Marketing sells the bullshots and we have to figure it out behind the scenes.

    GiantGeek2020
  • darkmayodarkmayo Registered User regular
    I am still enjoying the game, it is gorgeous and runs great on my machine despite some annoying bugs that pop up here and there. So far I had largely been playing good, rarely would get the cops pissed off and I would just run to get away (which became really easy a little later in the game) But yesterday I decided to see what the game throws at you if you max out them stars. Was expecting something like Maxtac to rollout with mech armor and miniguns and instead got 7 officers and two drones which I avoided by jumping up higher than they are and shooting them in the head through the world.

    Well guess I am not going to worry if I do a crime.

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  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    i mean

    oblivion had npcs with their own daily routines...?

    this is hardly something that is impossible or revolutionary, its just a fucking ballache to implement that needs a lot of backend work and most players completely ignore. i am kind of baffled by how people think this is some bizzare thing to have promised - the reason its not in is that cp2077 has almost no emergent systems of any kind because all the systems had to be fucked into shape at the last minute to get the fucking thing running, and agent-based systems always take a bunch of time to fiddle with

    pr is always aspirational; its just that usually theres enough of a connection between the studio development procedure and pr that the process of stuffing the in-development game into a shippable state gets you something that 80% matches rather than sub 50% because you cut dev short by like 2 years

    Oblivion and Skyrim having NPCs with their own routines is part of why its cities are sparsely populated and why an endgame battle between armies involves about 9 dudes fighting daedra. It's not a bizarre thing to promise in and of itself but I think a lot of non-technical people assume that modern hardware can handle a city full of npcs like that which leads to overpromising.

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  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    This genre is my jam. Futuristic FP action RPG? Give it to me please! Sadly this game isnt it. Even NMS wasnt this bad for lost promises and that game was almost destroyed on release. This is game is functionally less playable than NMS was with all the bugs, missing content and just straight lack of polish (like shown in the video) to even other games released over 10 years ago.

    I wish I would have kept on my initial reactions to the game and not followed the new bloodied opinions of people I trust online that were obviously biased or paid to shill. This game is broken. On almost every level. Still. Even on PC.

    Jubal77 on
    Preacherurahonky
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's not a "weapon art", it's an ANIMATION Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    Also, never released it on PS4/XB1.

    That was one of many albatrosses (albatrossi?) around the neck of this game.

    I wonder how much completed content got cut from the PC/next gen versions of the game so it could run on a base PS4/Xbox.

    jungleroomx on
    MassenaFencingsax
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's not a "weapon art", it's an ANIMATION Registered User regular
    i mean

    oblivion had npcs with their own daily routines...?

    this is hardly something that is impossible or revolutionary, its just a fucking ballache to implement that needs a lot of backend work and most players completely ignore. i am kind of baffled by how people think this is some bizzare thing to have promised - the reason its not in is that cp2077 has almost no emergent systems of any kind because all the systems had to be fucked into shape at the last minute to get the fucking thing running, and agent-based systems always take a bunch of time to fiddle with

    pr is always aspirational; its just that usually theres enough of a connection between the studio development procedure and pr that the process of stuffing the in-development game into a shippable state gets you something that 80% matches rather than sub 50% because you cut dev short by like 2 years

    Oblivion and Skyrim having NPCs with their own routines is part of why its cities are sparsely populated and why an endgame battle between armies involves about 9 dudes fighting daedra. It's not a bizarre thing to promise in and of itself but I think a lot of non-technical people assume that modern hardware can handle a city full of npcs like that which leads to overpromising.

    Also, honestly, except for a few NPC's, the idea of daily routines adds nothing to the game. At all.

    You could swap between clothing tendencies, where at night more punkers/gangsters come out, and during the day it's more civilians, and that would be more immersive than Random Dude #52341 Going to Job that you'll never notice.

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  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    Also, never released it on PS4/XB1.

    That was one of many albatrosses (albatrossi?) around the neck of this game.

    I wonder how much completed content got cut from the PC/next gen versions of the game so it could run on a base PS4/Xbox.

    It didnt run on either though.

    Corsini
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    Also, never released it on PS4/XB1.

    That was one of many albatrosses (albatrossi?) around the neck of this game.

    I wonder how much completed content got cut from the PC/next gen versions of the game so it could run on a base PS4/Xbox.

    It didnt run on either though.

    Eh, I played it end to end, had a great time, and aside from the first day or two, I didn't have any crashes or serious issues.

    Lots of people in this thread have talked about the endings, their choices, etc.

    It ran on PC - it wasn't even the buggiest PC game I played this year.

    Base console versions are apparently a VERY different story and people are conflating them.

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  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    syndalis wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    Also, never released it on PS4/XB1.

    That was one of many albatrosses (albatrossi?) around the neck of this game.

    I wonder how much completed content got cut from the PC/next gen versions of the game so it could run on a base PS4/Xbox.

    It didnt run on either though.

    Eh, I played it end to end, had a great time, and aside from the first day or two, I didn't have any crashes or serious issues.

    Lots of people in this thread have talked about the endings, their choices, etc.

    It ran on PC - it wasn't even the buggiest PC game I played this year.

    Base console versions are apparently a VERY different story and people are conflating them.

    Hey good for you. I had the opposite experience on PC. Game played ok I guess but bugs in first day through to when I stopped because it was ridiculous. I imagine if you follow the main path its a bit better but being the game it was supposed to be I saw almost all of what was in the trailer and more. On top of that you run into the wall of horrible balancing if you go side story.

    My statement was in regards to xb1 and ps4 of which it didnt run. It didnt run so bad it was removed from both stores.

    Jubal77 on
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    I think too much focus gets put on the bugs anyway. Every bug could be fixed tomorrow and that wouldn't change any of my core issues with the game.

    Dragkonias on
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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's not a "weapon art", it's an ANIMATION Registered User regular
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    Also, never released it on PS4/XB1.

    That was one of many albatrosses (albatrossi?) around the neck of this game.

    I wonder how much completed content got cut from the PC/next gen versions of the game so it could run on a base PS4/Xbox.

    It didnt run on either though.

    I mean technically it did

    And having to pare down the PC version to match the base consoles may not be the only problem, but I'd be willing to bet it was still a problem.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    syndalis wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    Also, never released it on PS4/XB1.

    That was one of many albatrosses (albatrossi?) around the neck of this game.

    I wonder how much completed content got cut from the PC/next gen versions of the game so it could run on a base PS4/Xbox.

    It didnt run on either though.

    Eh, I played it end to end, had a great time, and aside from the first day or two, I didn't have any crashes or serious issues.

    Lots of people in this thread have talked about the endings, their choices, etc.

    It ran on PC - it wasn't even the buggiest PC game I played this year.

    Base console versions are apparently a VERY different story and people are conflating them.

    Game's been out for over a month and I *still* get all kinds of crashes.

    Zilla360
  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    Also, never released it on PS4/XB1.

    That was one of many albatrosses (albatrossi?) around the neck of this game.

    I wonder how much completed content got cut from the PC/next gen versions of the game so it could run on a base PS4/Xbox.

    It didnt run on either though.

    I mean technically it did

    And having to pare down the PC version to match the base consoles may not be the only problem, but I'd be willing to bet it was still a problem.

    I mean that is like saying the versions of doom that were on calculators were technically running it fully. I guess but it loses something.

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's not a "weapon art", it's an ANIMATION Registered User regular
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    Also, never released it on PS4/XB1.

    That was one of many albatrosses (albatrossi?) around the neck of this game.

    I wonder how much completed content got cut from the PC/next gen versions of the game so it could run on a base PS4/Xbox.

    It didnt run on either though.

    I mean technically it did

    And having to pare down the PC version to match the base consoles may not be the only problem, but I'd be willing to bet it was still a problem.

    I mean that is like saying the versions of doom that were on calculators were technically running it fully. I guess but it loses something.

    As far as content/systems, etc.

    Of course the PC version is prettier, but how much shit had to get cut from the consoles that also got cut from the PC was there, is my point.

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    Also, never released it on PS4/XB1.

    That was one of many albatrosses (albatrossi?) around the neck of this game.

    I wonder how much completed content got cut from the PC/next gen versions of the game so it could run on a base PS4/Xbox.

    It didnt run on either though.

    I mean technically it did

    And having to pare down the PC version to match the base consoles may not be the only problem, but I'd be willing to bet it was still a problem.

    I mean that is like saying the versions of doom that were on calculators were technically running it fully. I guess but it loses something.

    As far as content/systems, etc.

    Of course the PC version is prettier, but how much shit had to get cut from the consoles that also got cut from the PC was there, is my point.

    Having seen the fps issues, the load ins, and other glaring issues on the base consoles first hand I would comfortably call that "not running". And I agree that they most likely had to cut things to bring it onto the consoles they first built the game on. But in the end it is more a testament to the scope and management issues of the game rather than that being the actual cause. I mean aging AAA games are being ported to the switch just fine.

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited January 18
    i mean

    oblivion had npcs with their own daily routines...?

    this is hardly something that is impossible or revolutionary, its just a fucking ballache to implement that needs a lot of backend work and most players completely ignore. i am kind of baffled by how people think this is some bizzare thing to have promised - the reason its not in is that cp2077 has almost no emergent systems of any kind because all the systems had to be fucked into shape at the last minute to get the fucking thing running, and agent-based systems always take a bunch of time to fiddle with

    pr is always aspirational; its just that usually theres enough of a connection between the studio development procedure and pr that the process of stuffing the in-development game into a shippable state gets you something that 80% matches rather than sub 50% because you cut dev short by like 2 years

    Oblivion and Skyrim having NPCs with their own routines is part of why its cities are sparsely populated and why an endgame battle between armies involves about 9 dudes fighting daedra. It's not a bizarre thing to promise in and of itself but I think a lot of non-technical people assume that modern hardware can handle a city full of npcs like that which leads to overpromising.

    ehh the scaling isnt that hard depending on how u handle it. i do a lot of agent based sim stuff and especially on modern hardware with culling u can be pretty outrageous. the number they specified - like 1500 over the whole city - is completely in line with previous attempts

    agent stuff is way easier to do now, and particularly with how these things tend to be faked in games (eg with hard checkpoints or fallback states that are loaded as ai comes in and out of activity) it could be done quite sensibly. the problem was never really feasibility in technical terms, it was feasibility in dev resources, time and tuning terms - eg in oblivion they made the whole system, spent a bunch of time trying to wrangling it to work in the original incarnation then kneecapped it and developed the version actually in game to avoid roving packs of undead depopulating the countryside and addicts murdering dealers

    surrealitycheck on
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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's not a "weapon art", it's an ANIMATION Registered User regular
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    Also, never released it on PS4/XB1.

    That was one of many albatrosses (albatrossi?) around the neck of this game.

    I wonder how much completed content got cut from the PC/next gen versions of the game so it could run on a base PS4/Xbox.

    It didnt run on either though.

    I mean technically it did

    And having to pare down the PC version to match the base consoles may not be the only problem, but I'd be willing to bet it was still a problem.

    I mean that is like saying the versions of doom that were on calculators were technically running it fully. I guess but it loses something.

    As far as content/systems, etc.

    Of course the PC version is prettier, but how much shit had to get cut from the consoles that also got cut from the PC was there, is my point.

    Having seen the fps issues, the load ins, and other glaring issues on the base consoles first hand I would comfortably call that "not running". And I agree that they most likely had to cut things to bring it onto the consoles they first built the game on. But in the end it is more a testament to the scope and management issues of the game rather than that being the actual cause. I mean aging AAA games are being ported to the switch just fine.

    Most Switch ports are really godawful, man. More than are good.

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    Also, never released it on PS4/XB1.

    That was one of many albatrosses (albatrossi?) around the neck of this game.

    I wonder how much completed content got cut from the PC/next gen versions of the game so it could run on a base PS4/Xbox.

    It didnt run on either though.

    I mean technically it did

    And having to pare down the PC version to match the base consoles may not be the only problem, but I'd be willing to bet it was still a problem.

    I mean that is like saying the versions of doom that were on calculators were technically running it fully. I guess but it loses something.

    As far as content/systems, etc.

    Of course the PC version is prettier, but how much shit had to get cut from the consoles that also got cut from the PC was there, is my point.

    Having seen the fps issues, the load ins, and other glaring issues on the base consoles first hand I would comfortably call that "not running". And I agree that they most likely had to cut things to bring it onto the consoles they first built the game on. But in the end it is more a testament to the scope and management issues of the game rather than that being the actual cause. I mean aging AAA games are being ported to the switch just fine.

    Most Switch ports are really godawful, man. More than are good.

    I dunno ive watched a few of them. And they are much more playable than this game was on the base consoles. I actually played Warframe on the switch myself to try it out and while its not an experience I want to play full time it worked fine. But to go back to the game ill just leave the thread. This game was an utter disappointment for me and lacking of polish even on the main line. William Gibson was right all along.

    Jubal77 on
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's not a "weapon art", it's an ANIMATION Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    yeah the point im making is not so much it isnt a failure but that i view it as a failure of management and production vs fake promises/pr/overall studio disingenuousness

    the way development should work is that there is a negotiation between aspirational intention and possibility where they lead each other, but here management 100% failed both to moderate aspiration or to set up the development process in a way to let it manifest

    clear-eyed management would have delayed the game 2 years

    Also, never released it on PS4/XB1.

    That was one of many albatrosses (albatrossi?) around the neck of this game.

    I wonder how much completed content got cut from the PC/next gen versions of the game so it could run on a base PS4/Xbox.

    It didnt run on either though.

    I mean technically it did

    And having to pare down the PC version to match the base consoles may not be the only problem, but I'd be willing to bet it was still a problem.

    I mean that is like saying the versions of doom that were on calculators were technically running it fully. I guess but it loses something.

    As far as content/systems, etc.

    Of course the PC version is prettier, but how much shit had to get cut from the consoles that also got cut from the PC was there, is my point.

    Having seen the fps issues, the load ins, and other glaring issues on the base consoles first hand I would comfortably call that "not running". And I agree that they most likely had to cut things to bring it onto the consoles they first built the game on. But in the end it is more a testament to the scope and management issues of the game rather than that being the actual cause. I mean aging AAA games are being ported to the switch just fine.

    Most Switch ports are really godawful, man. More than are good.

    I dunno ive watched a few of them. And they are much more playable than this game was on the base consoles. I actually played Warframe on the switch myself to try it out and while its not an experience I want to play full time it worked fine. But to go back to the game ill just leave the thread. This game was an utter disappointment for me and lacking of polish even on the main line. William Gibson was right all along.

    I mean

    William Gibson made some gatekeepery quote about something he was still wrong about, didn't say anything about worker abuse, mismanagement, and all the obvious flaws of the game.

    It's definitely not "GTA but 80s retrofuture cyberpunk." Not to say it doesn't have a ton of problems from top to bottom.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    i mean

    oblivion had npcs with their own daily routines...?

    this is hardly something that is impossible or revolutionary, its just a fucking ballache to implement that needs a lot of backend work and most players completely ignore. i am kind of baffled by how people think this is some bizzare thing to have promised - the reason its not in is that cp2077 has almost no emergent systems of any kind because all the systems had to be fucked into shape at the last minute to get the fucking thing running, and agent-based systems always take a bunch of time to fiddle with

    pr is always aspirational; its just that usually theres enough of a connection between the studio development procedure and pr that the process of stuffing the in-development game into a shippable state gets you something that 80% matches rather than sub 50% because you cut dev short by like 2 years

    Oblivion and Skyrim having NPCs with their own routines is part of why its cities are sparsely populated and why an endgame battle between armies involves about 9 dudes fighting daedra. It's not a bizarre thing to promise in and of itself but I think a lot of non-technical people assume that modern hardware can handle a city full of npcs like that which leads to overpromising.

    ehh the scaling isnt that hard depending on how u handle it. i do a lot of agent based sim stuff and especially on modern hardware with culling u can be pretty outrageous. the number they specified - like 1500 over the whole city - is completely in line with previous attempts

    agent stuff is way easier to do now, and particularly with how these things tend to be faked in games (eg with hard checkpoints or fallback states that are loaded as ai comes in and out of activity) it could be done quite sensibly. the problem was never really feasibility in technical terms, it was feasibility in dev resources, time and tuning terms - eg in oblivion they made the whole system, spent a bunch of time trying to wrangling it to work in the original incarnation then kneecapped it and developed the version actually in game to avoid roving packs of undead depopulating the countryside and addicts murdering dealers

    And they still had that one dude who was murdered by the guards because he was hungry the first time you loaded the cell in his city because he didn’t start with any money or the key to his house (or something)

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  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    edited January 19
    Re: AI schedules, I didn't watch that specific video, but from what I recall when it was brought up last time, they were actually referring to day/night cycles, but it was like showing a crowd scene or mentioning the crowds the next sentence or something, so it was pretty clear how you could get that impression?

    That's not to say that they didn't hella over promise on things they had no intention of delivering on, but there was definitely a lot of imagining of things that weren't actually promised going on as well

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    Re: AI schedules, I didn't watch that specific video, but from what I recall when it was brought up last time, they were actually referring to day/night cycles, but it was like showing a crowd scene or mentioning the crowds the next sentence or something, so it was pretty clear how you could get that impression?

    That's not to say that they didn't hella over promise on things they had no intention of delivering on, but there was definitely a lot of imagining of things that weren't actually promised going on as well

    If you watch the video, they specifically say every NPC has their own "lives and routines." I'd say if you haven't yet, watched the Crowbat video because the first half well covers some of the very clear over promising.

    And here's the thing, I understand games often conceptualize at a high level and have to pare back things to make it actually work. The problem is that for the last 2-3 years we were shown and told a series of very specific things about the game, lots of which simply aren't there or heavily scaled back in the full game.

    Another over promise? Two different devs saying the whole city is fleshed out and explorable and yet... All of Pacifica is unfinished.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    This was from June 2020:

    https://gamerant.com/cyberpunk-2077-npcs/
    Cyberpunk 2077 will feature more than 1,000 non-playable characters who all have their own daily lives, developer CD Projekt RED has revealed. Fans may get to see more of these NPCs in the Cyberpunk 2077 Night City Wire event which has now been delayed to the end of the month.

    German gaming site GameStar spoke to Cyberpunk 2077 senior level designer Miles Tost and senior quest designer Philipp Weber in a new series of podcasts. Fans translations on Reddit reveal that the developers confirmed that more than 1,000 NPCs in the game will have "a handmade routine." In comparison, there are areas in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt where NPCs just had no routine. In theory, this should allow players to follow an NPC as they move from work, to a nightclub for drinks at the end of the day, and back home to their apartment, if that is the routine that CD Projekt RED has designed for them.

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Another bummer is how little you can actually explore the mega apartment V lives in, especially considering it's one of the few interior areas like that you can enter.

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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's not a "weapon art", it's an ANIMATION Registered User regular
    edited January 19
    Couscous wrote: »
    This was from June 2020:

    https://gamerant.com/cyberpunk-2077-npcs/
    Cyberpunk 2077 will feature more than 1,000 non-playable characters who all have their own daily lives, developer CD Projekt RED has revealed. Fans may get to see more of these NPCs in the Cyberpunk 2077 Night City Wire event which has now been delayed to the end of the month.

    German gaming site GameStar spoke to Cyberpunk 2077 senior level designer Miles Tost and senior quest designer Philipp Weber in a new series of podcasts. Fans translations on Reddit reveal that the developers confirmed that more than 1,000 NPCs in the game will have "a handmade routine." In comparison, there are areas in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt where NPCs just had no routine. In theory, this should allow players to follow an NPC as they move from work, to a nightclub for drinks at the end of the day, and back home to their apartment, if that is the routine that CD Projekt RED has designed for them.

    And it's entirely possible this shit was either:

    1. Never really in there and someone at marketing ran with it
    2. Really tanking performance
    3. Trimmed completely because the results weren't worth the processing budget required

    This is marketing, management, and c suite people not knowing when to just shut the fuck up.

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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's not a "weapon art", it's an ANIMATION Registered User regular
    edited January 19
    Say what you will about From Software but they built up Elden Ring without saying a single goddamned thing, so nobody can say they were lying or being misleading.

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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's not a "weapon art", it's an ANIMATION Registered User regular
    Another bummer is how little you can actually explore the mega apartment V lives in, especially considering it's one of the few interior areas like that you can enter.

    I managed to clip my way in to one of the other elevators (don't do it you can't get out) and it was going to a different floor than the other one was.

    More cut content.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    Being able to explore that place was another promise thing. In the same video where they talk about all npcs having their own routines they talk about V's apartment building being this flourishing complex you can fully explore. And then you kinda just go down a few corridors and take the lift outside.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    This was from June 2020:

    https://gamerant.com/cyberpunk-2077-npcs/
    Cyberpunk 2077 will feature more than 1,000 non-playable characters who all have their own daily lives, developer CD Projekt RED has revealed. Fans may get to see more of these NPCs in the Cyberpunk 2077 Night City Wire event which has now been delayed to the end of the month.

    German gaming site GameStar spoke to Cyberpunk 2077 senior level designer Miles Tost and senior quest designer Philipp Weber in a new series of podcasts. Fans translations on Reddit reveal that the developers confirmed that more than 1,000 NPCs in the game will have "a handmade routine." In comparison, there are areas in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt where NPCs just had no routine. In theory, this should allow players to follow an NPC as they move from work, to a nightclub for drinks at the end of the day, and back home to their apartment, if that is the routine that CD Projekt RED has designed for them.

    And it's entirely possible this shit was either:

    1. Never really in there and someone at marketing ran with it
    2. Really tanking performance
    3. Trimmed completely because the results weren't worth the processing budget required

    This is marketing, management, and c suite people not knowing when to just shut the fuck up.

    The fact that they still thought they could do it in June would be really damning in itself.

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  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    The frustrating thing about any game that tries to hype "NPC's have their own routines" is that I doubt most players actually care about it. And most of the remainder are just going to think "neat" for about 5 seconds before moving on to actually playing the game and it never crossing their mind again. And if they do, it's likely because they are annoyed that they are made to wait "for no reason" because NPC Alice who they need to talk to for a mission is only found at the noodle shop after sundown.

    Now personally it would be nice if that same crowd wasn't outside the apartment at all hours, but simply spawning a different crowd at night vs day would have been enough to give a hint of a schedule without needing actual "full daily routines" BS. But I suspect this was all just another victim on the pile of trying to run it on last gen consoles. Heck, the incredibly aggressive memory cleanup of having NPC's and cars immediately disappear if you turn around is vastly worse to me than them lacking "daily routines".

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    The frustrating thing about any game that tries to hype "NPC's have their own routines" is that I doubt most players actually care about it. And most of the remainder are just going to think "neat" for about 5 seconds before moving on to actually playing the game and it never crossing their mind again. And if they do, it's likely because they are annoyed that they are made to wait "for no reason" because NPC Alice who they need to talk to for a mission is only found at the noodle shop after sundown.

    Now personally it would be nice if that same crowd wasn't outside the apartment at all hours, but simply spawning a different crowd at night vs day would have been enough to give a hint of a schedule without needing actual "full daily routines" BS. But I suspect this was all just another victim on the pile of trying to run it on last gen consoles. Heck, the incredibly aggressive memory cleanup of having NPC's and cars immediately disappear if you turn around is vastly worse to me than them lacking "daily routines".

    Or the Phantom Cars in the distance thing.

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Again I don't think the issue is "people don't care" the problem is them promising one thing literally up to release, and then backing off without telling anyone. Things like car customization, which lots of people do care about, or the original incarnation of both the Mantis Blades and the Robo-dog, etc. Many many things that were legitimately interesting or looked fun, just gone without much explanation.

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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    the lack of interior spaces is a huge problem overall i think

    just adding dlc that fills out interior after interior - add some genuinely large explorable corp buildings etc - would add hugely to the sense of wonder

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  • SimpsoniaSimpsonia Registered User regular
    Recent interviews have shown that they didn't actually start any real work on CP2077 until 2016.
    Again I don't think the issue is "people don't care" the problem is them promising one thing literally up to release, and then backing off without telling anyone. Things like car customization, which lots of people do care about, or the original incarnation of both the Mantis Blades and the Robo-dog, etc. Many many things that were legitimately interesting or looked fun, just gone without much explanation.

    With regard to "without telling people", I guess what did you expect, a pre-launch press release listing features that were cut in development and may or may not have been mentioned in marketing materials potentially multiple years prior? I can't imagine any mass consumer industry where it works that way.

    Yeah broken promises are perfectly valid to hold against developers, but I don't think any company could or would ever announce them before launch.

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  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited January 19
    Man I didn't even know about half this stuff. Yeah if I was following the development I would be (more) disappointed too.

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