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Cyberpunk 2077 | Enemies, like dogs, cannot look up

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  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    Because it bears repeating & repeating: Making video games is really fucking hard. Doubly so for the AAA or AAAA portion of the industry. Because management just wants their money-filled swimming pools and has utterly no fucking clue what you do or how you do it, just that it gets fucking done until you collapse from exhaustion.

    Even for people with Phd's. Especially when the hardware you're writing for is a constantly dynamic, shifting, moving target.

    So the actual programmers are blameless, IMO. They obviously tried their best under what was likely very tough working conditions, only to have the internet take a massive shit all over them and their mental health.

    Zilla360 on
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  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    edited November 26
    The internets' understanding of software development is at a level that can be described as "not even wrong yet". "It's just a couple of lines of code to fix that, so if they don't that means they're just lazy" is an actual thing I have read on this topic.

    It's rather unsurprising that it results in "and the internet shits on it". Someone writes a mod, or a little game that's 1, 3, even 5-10k lines of code, and they inappropriately expand that experience to the much larger scale of something like a AAA game or big app. (Things like your browsers, your mail clients, your Big Things used by A Lot Of People)

    Fuck, even in what I work on, 5-10k lines of code can be "a single invisible component"; the millions of lines of code in anything we use every day is just a mindboggling scale, even when it's what you do all day. Nobody has all of Chrome in their head, there's not a single person who can tell you how all of iOS or Windows functions, nobody can "fix any bug in Photoshop" without probably needing to grab some other team by the metaphorical collar and figure out why in Hades they did THAT and what the hell is even this entire file.


    tl;dr shit's hard, people are human, and the amount of code/complexity in these projects is mindboggling even to those who work on them. https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks ought to cover it.

    dporowski on
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  • StormwatcherStormwatcher Blegh BlughRegistered User regular
    why say "lazy devs" when you should say "bad managers"

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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    why say "lazy devs" when you should say "bad managers"
    Because capitalism has convinced people into thinking that all company failings are personal moral flaws on the part of workers rather than examples of systemic exploitation by the ruling class in the form of trying to exploit laborers for all they are worth while paying as little as possible.

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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited November 26
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year
    why say "lazy devs" when you should say "bad managers"

    and in this case we have enough information to not even have to guess - the failure being entirely management is just a matter of record

    surrealitycheck on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    why say "lazy devs" when you should say "bad managers"
    Because capitalism has convinced people into thinking that all company failings are personal moral flaws on the part of workers rather than examples of systemic exploitation by the ruling class in the form of trying to exploit laborers for all they are worth while paying as little as possible.

    I think it's less a capitalism thing and more of a human tendency to examine people, not systems.

    Bigity
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    why say "lazy devs" when you should say "bad managers"
    Because capitalism has convinced people into thinking that all company failings are personal moral flaws on the part of workers rather than examples of systemic exploitation by the ruling class in the form of trying to exploit laborers for all they are worth while paying as little as possible.

    I think it's less a capitalism thing and more of a human tendency to examine people, not systems.
    A tendency which capitalism reinforces in order to keep workers from developing class consciousness!

    OlivawStormwatcherDarmakJazzNightslyrAistanThe DeliveratorZilla360GnomeTankbalerbower
  • DirtyDirty Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    And that's where the thinking stops and that's the problem. Alas.

    What the hell are you talking about

    Some checkoint systems are great. Some are not. Proper save systems are always superior.

    Lot of games were designed with checkpoints due to system limitations and then since people got used to them and some do them well and it's become the de facto method and hence a downgrade overall.

    Want checkpoints? Do both!

    Not sure how we got to this from defending mods, but weirder things have happened.

    Wait, by "checkpoints" and "proper saves", do you mean auto saves and manual saves?

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's not a "weapon art", it's an ANIMATION Registered User regular
    Theres a huge misunderstanding of how software development works, a large societal “common sense” archetype of the lazy worker, and a huge dose of Dunning-Kruger all wrapped up into one thing.

    OlivawEspantaPajaroTychoCelchuuuFencingsaxStormwatcherJazzGiantGeek2020NightslyrZilla360GnomeTankPenumbraschuss
  • KarlKarl Registered User regular
    why say "lazy devs" when you should say "bad managers"

    There is an equivalent of me at CDPR (An IT Project Manager) who should be fired for the absolute fuck up that was the launch.

    Please note, I have not played Cyberpunk 2077 (beyond a few minutes at a friend's house) but the sheer volume of media on it's issues speaks volumes.

    Everything about this game's issues screams "scope creep".

    StormwatcherNightslyrOlivaw
  • StormwatcherStormwatcher Blegh BlughRegistered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    why say "lazy devs" when you should say "bad managers"

    There is an equivalent of me at CDPR (An IT Project Manager) who should be fired for the absolute fuck up that was the launch.

    Please note, I have not played Cyberpunk 2077 (beyond a few minutes at a friend's house) but the sheer volume of media on it's issues speaks volumes.

    Everything about this game's issues screams "scope creep".

    oh it's worse than scope creep alone (of course there's that too).
    they only started the game several years after the first trailer, for starters. It all went downhill after that.

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  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    I would bet good money that the devs would have loved to fix a number of lingering engine issues but were tasked with other priorities. We’re not talking about Valve here.

    "I see everything twice!"


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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

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  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Apparently STEAM reviews on Cyberpunk are starting to trend upwards which is a good sign.

    Zilla360GiantGeek2020
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited November 27
    I would bet good money that the devs would have loved to fix a number of lingering engine issues but were tasked with other priorities. We’re not talking about Valve here.

    This is common in all types of software engineering. It's extremely common for software to ship with a bunch of "known shippable" issues, or "non-blocking" issues depending on your nomenclature. Generally devs and QA know a large chunk of the issues people are going to run in to before something ships. Obviously once large groups of users get a hold of something statistics takes over and new and wonderful issues that the dev team never thought of will be found....but prior to that devs and QA tend to know pretty well what the big stumbling blocks are.

    Everything in software development is a game of prioritization, which generally the devs themselves don't directly control. If you have management and project leaders who are bad at prioritizing, easily fall in to sunk cost fallacies, or are unable to push back against bad priorities driven by financials, well...things like Cyberpunk's release happen.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

    Based on how Witcher 3 ended up, is what most people are basing it on.

  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

    Based on how Witcher 3 ended up, is what most people are basing it on.

    And the longer they go without significant system overhauls and the more they delay things, the more I think that maybe they’re just not gonna do the thing

    Either that or the things they want to fix or update are so monumentally fucked that they can’t even get it out this year? The year after the game came out? Which only makes CDPR’s project management look even more inept because holy shit if the game needs this much work how in high holy FUCK did you think it could ship last year?

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  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

    Based on how Witcher 3 ended up, is what most people are basing it on.

    And the longer they go without significant system overhauls and the more they delay things, the more I think that maybe they’re just not gonna do the thing

    Either that or the things they want to fix or update are so monumentally fucked that they can’t even get it out this year? The year after the game came out? Which only makes CDPR’s project management look even more inept because holy shit if the game needs this much work how in high holy FUCK did you think it could ship last year?

    You know there's still a plague, right?

    Like, actively? I haven't seen my office since 2019. I've got coworkers I've never met. Am I still productive? Sure, yeah. Am I, is my industry, my business exactly as productive as you know, when there wasn't a plague? Nope! We don't know if we'll ever even be working the same way! Collaboration? Hope you like Zoom, bitches! Huddle up over a prob... NOPE! Hey can we pair on... Yeah lemme send you an Outlook invite. Tomorrow? Cool.

    I had a full lab at work, with every piece of hardware I could need. A bank of monitors that made me feel like I was in a spaceship, albeit one with kinda shitty coffee and wonky HVAC. I've now got a laptop and a semi-permanent backache. Everything is at a minimum 30% slower, just because, and that's before you get into things like "people losing their shit and quitting", "hey maybe your developer's aunt died of the plague we still have", or just the pure attrition of say, purely hypothetically, crunching for eternity on something, then having the internet shit on you for ineptitude, as well as complain you're not done fixing it yet. Because you're clearly inept. No other reason, totes.

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  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    Yeah, I don't blame the devs and the boots-on-the-ground workers. They're just doing their jobs and getting fucked over by management and by people whose only passion is money -- not fun, or hobbies, or video games.

    That being said, I'm still waiting for the game to be fixed before I invest anymore time into it. Maybe that will happen. Or maybe not! Either way, there are so many other good games to play that I'm not sweating it. I like to check in with this thread every so often to take a pulse of how the game is doing these days. Which sounds like right now it has stagnated a bit. It's sad. But again, not a huge loss to me, because I have lots of other game I can play while I wait for them to fix it.

    I don't have any ill will towards CDPR or the fine folks who made this game. What I do have ill will towards is corporate greed and placing the value of money over the value of the human lives they are trodding upon to create the games (and also I care about my hobby and I don't like seeing my hobby ruined by people who would rather turn quarterly profits than release great games). That last bit applies to the entire games industry. It is way too corporate now. So many flops and disappointments. Cyberpunk, Warcraft 3 Reforged, Battlefield 2042, Marvel's Avengers, Anthem, and the list goes on. So many games that are rushed and/or ruined by upper management chasing trends and dollars, rather than allowing their workers to create something they can be proud of.

    Rant over.

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  • EtiowsaEtiowsa Registered User regular
    dporowski wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

    Based on how Witcher 3 ended up, is what most people are basing it on.

    And the longer they go without significant system overhauls and the more they delay things, the more I think that maybe they’re just not gonna do the thing

    Either that or the things they want to fix or update are so monumentally fucked that they can’t even get it out this year? The year after the game came out? Which only makes CDPR’s project management look even more inept because holy shit if the game needs this much work how in high holy FUCK did you think it could ship last year?

    You know there's still a plague, right?

    Like, actively? I haven't seen my office since 2019. I've got coworkers I've never met. Am I still productive? Sure, yeah. Am I, is my industry, my business exactly as productive as you know, when there wasn't a plague? Nope! We don't know if we'll ever even be working the same way! Collaboration? Hope you like Zoom, bitches! Huddle up over a prob... NOPE! Hey can we pair on... Yeah lemme send you an Outlook invite. Tomorrow? Cool.

    I had a full lab at work, with every piece of hardware I could need. A bank of monitors that made me feel like I was in a spaceship, albeit one with kinda shitty coffee and wonky HVAC. I've now got a laptop and a semi-permanent backache. Everything is at a minimum 30% slower, just because, and that's before you get into things like "people losing their shit and quitting", "hey maybe your developer's aunt died of the plague we still have", or just the pure attrition of say, purely hypothetically, crunching for eternity on something, then having the internet shit on you for ineptitude, as well as complain you're not done fixing it yet. Because you're clearly inept. No other reason, totes.

    Other companies have managed to ship acceptable products and provide adequate post launch support despite covid, why is CDPR special in this regard?

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

    its close to a given both on previous form and on iirc reported board and management intention - cp2077 so damaged faith in cdpr as a brand (and has left them still very much in the black) that they feel they have to commit to righting the ship (i imagine its a 2 year full dev team type situation + a smaller team doing pre-prod on new project, then they coincide going into full prod with the end of major support for cp2077 unless theres a pressing need not to) + size of next gen market is going up and up, so long-tail could be thick with a well timed re-release that actually works to attract people who were let down by last gen attempts / put off by release word of mouth + possible multiplayer

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  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    Etiowsa wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

    Based on how Witcher 3 ended up, is what most people are basing it on.

    And the longer they go without significant system overhauls and the more they delay things, the more I think that maybe they’re just not gonna do the thing

    Either that or the things they want to fix or update are so monumentally fucked that they can’t even get it out this year? The year after the game came out? Which only makes CDPR’s project management look even more inept because holy shit if the game needs this much work how in high holy FUCK did you think it could ship last year?

    You know there's still a plague, right?

    Like, actively? I haven't seen my office since 2019. I've got coworkers I've never met. Am I still productive? Sure, yeah. Am I, is my industry, my business exactly as productive as you know, when there wasn't a plague? Nope! We don't know if we'll ever even be working the same way! Collaboration? Hope you like Zoom, bitches! Huddle up over a prob... NOPE! Hey can we pair on... Yeah lemme send you an Outlook invite. Tomorrow? Cool.

    I had a full lab at work, with every piece of hardware I could need. A bank of monitors that made me feel like I was in a spaceship, albeit one with kinda shitty coffee and wonky HVAC. I've now got a laptop and a semi-permanent backache. Everything is at a minimum 30% slower, just because, and that's before you get into things like "people losing their shit and quitting", "hey maybe your developer's aunt died of the plague we still have", or just the pure attrition of say, purely hypothetically, crunching for eternity on something, then having the internet shit on you for ineptitude, as well as complain you're not done fixing it yet. Because you're clearly inept. No other reason, totes.

    Other companies have managed to ship acceptable products and provide adequate post launch support despite covid, why is CDPR special in this regard?

    I'm disinclined to, in a situation like this, say things like "well they're fine, you should be too". I cannot overstate how disruptive this shit has been, and I'm in an industry/location/position where we could keep going reasonably well, everyone's got their shots, we even could stay home to begin with, we heavily used remote conferencing tools, etc and so forth.

  • EtiowsaEtiowsa Registered User regular
    dporowski wrote: »
    Etiowsa wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

    Based on how Witcher 3 ended up, is what most people are basing it on.

    And the longer they go without significant system overhauls and the more they delay things, the more I think that maybe they’re just not gonna do the thing

    Either that or the things they want to fix or update are so monumentally fucked that they can’t even get it out this year? The year after the game came out? Which only makes CDPR’s project management look even more inept because holy shit if the game needs this much work how in high holy FUCK did you think it could ship last year?

    You know there's still a plague, right?

    Like, actively? I haven't seen my office since 2019. I've got coworkers I've never met. Am I still productive? Sure, yeah. Am I, is my industry, my business exactly as productive as you know, when there wasn't a plague? Nope! We don't know if we'll ever even be working the same way! Collaboration? Hope you like Zoom, bitches! Huddle up over a prob... NOPE! Hey can we pair on... Yeah lemme send you an Outlook invite. Tomorrow? Cool.

    I had a full lab at work, with every piece of hardware I could need. A bank of monitors that made me feel like I was in a spaceship, albeit one with kinda shitty coffee and wonky HVAC. I've now got a laptop and a semi-permanent backache. Everything is at a minimum 30% slower, just because, and that's before you get into things like "people losing their shit and quitting", "hey maybe your developer's aunt died of the plague we still have", or just the pure attrition of say, purely hypothetically, crunching for eternity on something, then having the internet shit on you for ineptitude, as well as complain you're not done fixing it yet. Because you're clearly inept. No other reason, totes.

    Other companies have managed to ship acceptable products and provide adequate post launch support despite covid, why is CDPR special in this regard?

    I'm disinclined to, in a situation like this, say things like "well they're fine, you should be too". I cannot overstate how disruptive this shit has been, and I'm in an industry/location/position where we could keep going reasonably well, everyone's got their shots, we even could stay home to begin with, we heavily used remote conferencing tools, etc and so forth.

    Again, their situation is not unique. Pandemic's fucked over everything. Even allowing for covid disruption, the support cyberpunk has received has been crap. They managed to put out 1 'major' patch that barely fixed anything, and then nothing for months. I get that people like to go to the mat for their favorite corporations, but I can't understand how anyone can look at CDPR's efforts wrt cyberpunk and think, 'It'll be fine.'

    FencingsaxJubal77furlion
  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    Alternately, instead of corporate favoritism/bias, I might simply disagree with you as regards appropriate corporate employee productivity in a pandemic context.

    Nightslyr
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Etiowsa wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

    Based on how Witcher 3 ended up, is what most people are basing it on.

    And the longer they go without significant system overhauls and the more they delay things, the more I think that maybe they’re just not gonna do the thing

    Either that or the things they want to fix or update are so monumentally fucked that they can’t even get it out this year? The year after the game came out? Which only makes CDPR’s project management look even more inept because holy shit if the game needs this much work how in high holy FUCK did you think it could ship last year?

    You know there's still a plague, right?

    Like, actively? I haven't seen my office since 2019. I've got coworkers I've never met. Am I still productive? Sure, yeah. Am I, is my industry, my business exactly as productive as you know, when there wasn't a plague? Nope! We don't know if we'll ever even be working the same way! Collaboration? Hope you like Zoom, bitches! Huddle up over a prob... NOPE! Hey can we pair on... Yeah lemme send you an Outlook invite. Tomorrow? Cool.

    I had a full lab at work, with every piece of hardware I could need. A bank of monitors that made me feel like I was in a spaceship, albeit one with kinda shitty coffee and wonky HVAC. I've now got a laptop and a semi-permanent backache. Everything is at a minimum 30% slower, just because, and that's before you get into things like "people losing their shit and quitting", "hey maybe your developer's aunt died of the plague we still have", or just the pure attrition of say, purely hypothetically, crunching for eternity on something, then having the internet shit on you for ineptitude, as well as complain you're not done fixing it yet. Because you're clearly inept. No other reason, totes.

    Other companies have managed to ship acceptable products and provide adequate post launch support despite covid, why is CDPR special in this regard?

    Oh yes, the AAA market at the moment is perfectly fine, like Battlefield! Or ESoccer! Or Forza Horizon! Or well I guess technically Halo is still in Beta I think!

    syndalisZilla360rahkeesh2000NightslyrThe Deliverator
  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    The main reason for the turnaround in steam reviews is that we're past the absurd hype phase.
    People playing it now aren't expecting The Ultimate Game. They've read all the articles about how this turned into a dumpster fire and everything, so their expectations are thoroughly tempered.

    Then they try the game because it's come down to an acceptable price to risk it, they're braced for it to be a mess, and it's turning out to be okay!
    Basically, this.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
    FencingsaxHappylilElfJazzZilla360GiantGeek2020NightslyrBRIAN BLESSEDThe DeliveratorAistan
  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    edited November 27
    dporowski wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

    Based on how Witcher 3 ended up, is what most people are basing it on.

    And the longer they go without significant system overhauls and the more they delay things, the more I think that maybe they’re just not gonna do the thing

    Either that or the things they want to fix or update are so monumentally fucked that they can’t even get it out this year? The year after the game came out? Which only makes CDPR’s project management look even more inept because holy shit if the game needs this much work how in high holy FUCK did you think it could ship last year?

    You know there's still a plague, right?

    Like, actively? I haven't seen my office since 2019. I've got coworkers I've never met. Am I still productive? Sure, yeah. Am I, is my industry, my business exactly as productive as you know, when there wasn't a plague? Nope! We don't know if we'll ever even be working the same way! Collaboration? Hope you like Zoom, bitches! Huddle up over a prob... NOPE! Hey can we pair on... Yeah lemme send you an Outlook invite. Tomorrow? Cool.

    I had a full lab at work, with every piece of hardware I could need. A bank of monitors that made me feel like I was in a spaceship, albeit one with kinda shitty coffee and wonky HVAC. I've now got a laptop and a semi-permanent backache. Everything is at a minimum 30% slower, just because, and that's before you get into things like "people losing their shit and quitting", "hey maybe your developer's aunt died of the plague we still have", or just the pure attrition of say, purely hypothetically, crunching for eternity on something, then having the internet shit on you for ineptitude, as well as complain you're not done fixing it yet. Because you're clearly inept. No other reason, totes.

    I think it’s weird that you think I’m blaming people like you and not the person above you, the guy paid way more who got a bigger bonus and who decided what was and was not acceptable to ship in the first place, and refused to put out a concrete road map with actual clearly stated intentions

    Olivaw on
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    PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
  • EtiowsaEtiowsa Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Etiowsa wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

    Based on how Witcher 3 ended up, is what most people are basing it on.

    And the longer they go without significant system overhauls and the more they delay things, the more I think that maybe they’re just not gonna do the thing

    Either that or the things they want to fix or update are so monumentally fucked that they can’t even get it out this year? The year after the game came out? Which only makes CDPR’s project management look even more inept because holy shit if the game needs this much work how in high holy FUCK did you think it could ship last year?

    You know there's still a plague, right?

    Like, actively? I haven't seen my office since 2019. I've got coworkers I've never met. Am I still productive? Sure, yeah. Am I, is my industry, my business exactly as productive as you know, when there wasn't a plague? Nope! We don't know if we'll ever even be working the same way! Collaboration? Hope you like Zoom, bitches! Huddle up over a prob... NOPE! Hey can we pair on... Yeah lemme send you an Outlook invite. Tomorrow? Cool.

    I had a full lab at work, with every piece of hardware I could need. A bank of monitors that made me feel like I was in a spaceship, albeit one with kinda shitty coffee and wonky HVAC. I've now got a laptop and a semi-permanent backache. Everything is at a minimum 30% slower, just because, and that's before you get into things like "people losing their shit and quitting", "hey maybe your developer's aunt died of the plague we still have", or just the pure attrition of say, purely hypothetically, crunching for eternity on something, then having the internet shit on you for ineptitude, as well as complain you're not done fixing it yet. Because you're clearly inept. No other reason, totes.

    Other companies have managed to ship acceptable products and provide adequate post launch support despite covid, why is CDPR special in this regard?

    Oh yes, the AAA market at the moment is perfectly fine, like Battlefield! Or ESoccer! Or Forza Horizon! Or well I guess technically Halo is still in Beta I think!

    Oh, for sure, there are other devs shitting the bed as well. But like with CDPR, I blame those situations on incompetence as opposed to quarantine problems. i don't doubt covid made things worse, but they'd still probably have sucked even without it.

  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    Etiowsa wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

    Based on how Witcher 3 ended up, is what most people are basing it on.

    And the longer they go without significant system overhauls and the more they delay things, the more I think that maybe they’re just not gonna do the thing

    Either that or the things they want to fix or update are so monumentally fucked that they can’t even get it out this year? The year after the game came out? Which only makes CDPR’s project management look even more inept because holy shit if the game needs this much work how in high holy FUCK did you think it could ship last year?

    You know there's still a plague, right?

    Like, actively? I haven't seen my office since 2019. I've got coworkers I've never met. Am I still productive? Sure, yeah. Am I, is my industry, my business exactly as productive as you know, when there wasn't a plague? Nope! We don't know if we'll ever even be working the same way! Collaboration? Hope you like Zoom, bitches! Huddle up over a prob... NOPE! Hey can we pair on... Yeah lemme send you an Outlook invite. Tomorrow? Cool.

    I had a full lab at work, with every piece of hardware I could need. A bank of monitors that made me feel like I was in a spaceship, albeit one with kinda shitty coffee and wonky HVAC. I've now got a laptop and a semi-permanent backache. Everything is at a minimum 30% slower, just because, and that's before you get into things like "people losing their shit and quitting", "hey maybe your developer's aunt died of the plague we still have", or just the pure attrition of say, purely hypothetically, crunching for eternity on something, then having the internet shit on you for ineptitude, as well as complain you're not done fixing it yet. Because you're clearly inept. No other reason, totes.

    Other companies have managed to ship acceptable products and provide adequate post launch support despite covid, why is CDPR special in this regard?

    Halo, which is backed by WAY more moneys than CDPR, was delayed over a year for multiplayer, single player coming out post release, and co-op, one of the flagship features of the franchise, is pushed into 2022.

    Baldur's Gate 3 is waaaaaaaaaaaaay behind schedule.

    Numerous titles have had key features descoped or have been delayed. Have not heard shit about a ton of things that were announced at E3 2020. Like, I really would like to see Avowed some day.

    I could keep going, but you get the idea. "Other companies" in the gaming industry are still reeling from the disruption.

    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
    Zilla360FencingsaxPixelated PixieGiantGeek2020Jazzrahkeesh2000NightslyrThe DeliveratorschussMassena
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited November 27
    Etiowsa wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Etiowsa wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Banzai5150 wrote: »
    In it's current shape, is it worth the Black Friday Sale price of $29 on PC?

    its 60% really fabulous world building, art, music setting etc 20% average deus ex lite gameplay 20% things that are cripplingly obviously unfinished or broken

    i got 100 hours of enjoyment out of it but this was almost entirely from character, immersion, setting and enjoying just wandering around. if that sounds like something u would enjoy then yes its very much worth it; if you want something thats well oiled on all fronts i would say wait for the huge ass "we fixed everything plus some content" expansion that is surely coming next year

    Is that a given? Not to be negative, genuinely curious.

    Based on how Witcher 3 ended up, is what most people are basing it on.

    And the longer they go without significant system overhauls and the more they delay things, the more I think that maybe they’re just not gonna do the thing

    Either that or the things they want to fix or update are so monumentally fucked that they can’t even get it out this year? The year after the game came out? Which only makes CDPR’s project management look even more inept because holy shit if the game needs this much work how in high holy FUCK did you think it could ship last year?

    You know there's still a plague, right?

    Like, actively? I haven't seen my office since 2019. I've got coworkers I've never met. Am I still productive? Sure, yeah. Am I, is my industry, my business exactly as productive as you know, when there wasn't a plague? Nope! We don't know if we'll ever even be working the same way! Collaboration? Hope you like Zoom, bitches! Huddle up over a prob... NOPE! Hey can we pair on... Yeah lemme send you an Outlook invite. Tomorrow? Cool.

    I had a full lab at work, with every piece of hardware I could need. A bank of monitors that made me feel like I was in a spaceship, albeit one with kinda shitty coffee and wonky HVAC. I've now got a laptop and a semi-permanent backache. Everything is at a minimum 30% slower, just because, and that's before you get into things like "people losing their shit and quitting", "hey maybe your developer's aunt died of the plague we still have", or just the pure attrition of say, purely hypothetically, crunching for eternity on something, then having the internet shit on you for ineptitude, as well as complain you're not done fixing it yet. Because you're clearly inept. No other reason, totes.

    Other companies have managed to ship acceptable products and provide adequate post launch support despite covid, why is CDPR special in this regard?

    Oh yes, the AAA market at the moment is perfectly fine, like Battlefield! Or ESoccer! Or Forza Horizon! Or well I guess technically Halo is still in Beta I think!

    Oh, for sure, there are other devs shitting the bed as well. But like with CDPR, I blame those situations on incompetence as opposed to quarantine problems. i don't doubt covid made things worse, but they'd still probably have sucked even without it.

    My point is that other companies are shipping products with bugs of similar severities.

    Fencingsax on
  • KarlKarl Registered User regular
    I'm going to put my PM hat on and say it's actually good there are delays.

    It's better to push out release dates etc then launch a load of bollocks.

    FencingsaxSpoitNightslyrHappylilElfZilla360furlionGiantGeek2020PenumbraOlivawDark Raven X
  • JazzJazz Registered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    I'm going to put my PM hat on and say it's actually good there are delays.

    It's better to push out release dates etc then launch a load of bollocks.

    “A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever.” - Shigeru Miyamoto

    Less of a given in this age of online updates etc. But the basic principle is still sound. Halo Infinite is a pretty great recent example - the delay did it the world of good - and even then the piecemeal launches of its further various aspects (multiplayer out of beta, campaign, co-op) are still yet to come.

    Zilla360GiantGeek2020
  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    First impressions mean a lot. A whole lot. A game still has to ship in a good state or a game will be flagged as being a bad game in people's minds. Forever. In most cases. Yes, sometimes there are major outliers like No Man's Sky and FFXIV which are the two golden standards of a bad game redemption arc. But those are the exception to the rule. Most games that launch bad stay bad and die bad.

    FencingsaxurahonkyZilla360furlionGiantGeek2020Olivaw
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    First impressions mean a lot. A whole lot. A game still has to ship in a good state or a game will be flagged as being a bad game in people's minds. Forever. In most cases. Yes, sometimes there are major outliers like No Man's Sky and FFXIV which are the two golden standards of a bad game redemption arc. But those are the exception to the rule. Most games that launch bad stay bad and die bad.

    Yep. Recent examples are Anthem and Marvel Avengers.

  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    The main reason for the turnaround in steam reviews is that we're past the absurd hype phase.
    People playing it now aren't expecting The Ultimate Game. They've read all the articles about how this turned into a dumpster fire and everything, so their expectations are thoroughly tempered.

    Then they try the game because it's come down to an acceptable price to risk it, they're braced for it to be a mess, and it's turning out to be okay!
    Basically, this.

    Honestly this is why I liked Metal Gear Survive a lot. Literally never read a single good things about it from anyone. It showed up at my house from Gamefly and I was going to try it as a joke... And ultimately enjoyed myself. I braced myself for the worst game ever and came away with 40+ hours.

    FencingsaxQanamilZilla360Jazz
  • BRIAN BLESSEDBRIAN BLESSED Maybe you aren't SPEAKING LOUDLY ENOUGHHH Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    The main reason for the turnaround in steam reviews is that we're past the absurd hype phase.
    People playing it now aren't expecting The Ultimate Game. They've read all the articles about how this turned into a dumpster fire and everything, so their expectations are thoroughly tempered.

    Then they try the game because it's come down to an acceptable price to risk it, they're braced for it to be a mess, and it's turning out to be okay!
    Basically, this.

    As a BioWare fan, this has been my general experience playing BioWare games for the past decade looking in on the """"fanbase""""

    So none of this surprises me at all

  • MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular
    Y'know I'm really not sure why everyone was expecting this game to have a bunch of polish to it.

    After all, the Polish budget was spent on the development team

    Na Zdrowie!

    dkj3oHf.jpg
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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    The main reason for the turnaround in steam reviews is that we're past the absurd hype phase.
    People playing it now aren't expecting The Ultimate Game. They've read all the articles about how this turned into a dumpster fire and everything, so their expectations are thoroughly tempered.

    Then they try the game because it's come down to an acceptable price to risk it, they're braced for it to be a mess, and it's turning out to be okay!
    Basically, this.

    Honestly this is why I liked Metal Gear Survive a lot. Literally never read a single good things about it from anyone. It showed up at my house from Gamefly and I was going to try it as a joke... And ultimately enjoyed myself. I braced myself for the worst game ever and came away with 40+ hours.

    I loved V, but it was mostly for the story, and playing it without that & just having zombies instead of tactical espionage just seemed... weak.

    ePITGr0.png
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    edited November 29
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    The main reason for the turnaround in steam reviews is that we're past the absurd hype phase.
    People playing it now aren't expecting The Ultimate Game. They've read all the articles about how this turned into a dumpster fire and everything, so their expectations are thoroughly tempered.

    Then they try the game because it's come down to an acceptable price to risk it, they're braced for it to be a mess, and it's turning out to be okay!
    Basically, this.

    Honestly this is why I liked Metal Gear Survive a lot. Literally never read a single good things about it from anyone. It showed up at my house from Gamefly and I was going to try it as a joke... And ultimately enjoyed myself. I braced myself for the worst game ever and came away with 40+ hours.

    I loved V, but it was mostly for the story, and playing it without that & just having zombies instead of tactical espionage just seemed... weak.

    I'm 100% in the minority but after 3 the MGS games weren't for me anymore (note that I've never played 5). However I'm super into resource gathering and building games. So when I watched a video that was titled "Metal Gear Survive is the worst game I've ever played" for shits n giggles and saw that it had those two... Caused me to put it in my Gamefly queue. Worst case scenario I lose a day or so giving it a shot.

    urahonky on
  • furlionfurlion Riskbreaker Lea MondeRegistered User regular
    So I finished one of the endings and have 3 of the districts completed. The game is much more stable on my PS4 in the literal meaning of the word, it has only crashed twice in about 20 hours. But from a technical viewpoint the game is deficient in a way I have never actually played before. When I drive from point a to point b I have to intentionally slow down or I will outrun the games ability to render the floor and just fall right through. When I run from a fast travel point to an NPC to do any interaction, I have to wait 30 seconds or more for the textures to load in. It is so painfully bad that I would legitimately be embarrassed to put my name to it. Really hope that whatever big surprise they have waiting for the 1.5 patch is worth it.

    sig.gif Gamertag: KL Retribution
    PSN:Furlion
    jungleroomxGaddezZilla360
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