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Microsoft announces coffee table

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I really wish they'd make something like this, but with the possibility for each pixel to also have a 'height' element, and actually protrude a small distance (maybe a couple of millimetres) from the surface. That way you could have a keyboard that you could really feel.

    And oh wow, I just realised. If you properly manipulated the pixels so they moved in a 'wave' of sorts, it'd be potentially possible for the computer to move items around on its surface without interaction from the user. Imagine that for tabletop games: the physical enemy pieces moved automatically by the Surface system. That would be so, so awesome.

    Unless you are talking about optical illusions, I don't think they have the technology for sensing somebody touching a light particle projected off a screen. Shit, I don't even think they have the technology to visually show what you are describing, let alone give you the ability to sense it or it to sense you. It's not a holodeck. It's just a big touch screen that can handle multiple inputs.
    Unfortuantly, protuding a small distance into thin air is probably still a long long way away, if it ever happens at all.

    Uh, I don't mean the light. I mean the physical pixel. I have no idea how feisable it is, but having each 'pixel' as a separate physical object capable of being extended above the surface to a height dictated by software doesn't seem super unrealistic to me.

    Uh. A pixel is the result of light, it is not a seperate entity in and of itself. It's defined as the smallest possible discrete part of an image on a computer screen. In the case of a Cathode Ray Tube, it is the light from the emitter in the back of the monitor passing through the screen and into your eyes, where it is registered as a part of the image. In the case of lcds, little cell shaped thingies that emit a glow, I don't really know how they work too well, but its basically a light emitting thing, and the result is the same, your eyes registering the light as an image.

    It's impossible to talk about a pixel being "lifted off the surface by a few millimeters", because its a process and not a thing. It's a unit of measurement. It's like saying: "hey wouldn't it be great if we could lift the centimeters off this ruler a few millimeters into thin air" It's meaningless to say that.
    In order for what you want them to create to happen, you need a physical object (such as a dust particle, for example) above the surface to reflect light off and then into your eyes or you wont be able to see anything that you can measure as a pixel. What this object is I don't know (dust particles are pretty heavy really), but when talking about lifting something physical several millimeters above the surface of an object you have to consider what is holding it in place, because that is a huge distance, and gravity wont be "happy" about that. I don't think there is anything that exists that can do what you are describing.
    A possible idea is a second surface that holds some kind of gas that the light can be reflected off, like a very deep plasma screen, but then it wont really be lifted off the surface, it will just be trapped under a second surface.
    The technology to do what you want wont happen for a very long time, because you are talking about controlled anti-gravity, in a way. Perhaps some kind of magnetism or static charge to hold the physical particles up, I don't know, but these things are impossible to control to any kind of precision right now and probably for a long time to come.

    Incidentally, even if this did happen, all you would feel if you touched it is whatever is reflecting the light into your eyes. And if the force that is holding it up (lets use my suggestions here) is, eg, magnetism, its entirely possible that the weak magnetic field of your body would dissipate whatever image is being formed. If held up by a static charge, it would earth itself onto you. Zap.
    If a deep plasma screen, all you would feel is the glass outer surface.
    Also any breeze at all would probably destroy it completely by blowing away the particles, so don't breathe.

    Amazing how confusing things can get if you attribute physical properties to things that don't technically exist eh?

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    rayofashrayofash Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    rayofash wrote: »
    I did see those, and they didn't interest me. I'm not denying this is amazing technology, all I'm saying is what can it offer me? I don't eat at restraunts that could afford a machine like that, nor do I use a GPS. If I have a board game, I play it on it the board it came with.

    The only thing I could see myself doing with it is hooking up a sound system and loading all my music onto it, that way people could mess around with whatever is playing when they come to my house. But that isn't worth the money it would cost to get it.

    Edit: Now if I could pull up a keyboard (that I assume would be a part of the interface, like pulling up the music app) and use it to program and play games like a normal computer and draw like a large tablet, It would be baught so frikkin hard.

    Well duh. That's only what half the thread has already suggested...
    In fact, you could probably just plop an actual bluetooth keyboard down and start typing.
    As for what else this can offer you, how about reading some of the suggestions made in this thread? Quite aside from the various game ideas, the basic technology underlying this is quite revolutionary.

    Also, you need to eat somewhere other than Mickey D's. Seriously, that shit just ain't healthy...

    The bluetooth keyboard idea is better.

    Also, I live in San Diego, here you have the choice of either eating at a fancy restraunt or paying your rent. I eat at independant food joints, their cheaper and better than eating at places like McDonalds or Carls Jr. I don't think any of the restraunts around here could afford something like this. Maybe a few of the bigger ones down town where a slice of cake costs you 50 bucks, but not here.
    I really wish they'd make something like this, but with the possibility for each pixel to also have a 'height' element, and actually protrude a small distance (maybe a couple of millimetres) from the surface. That way you could have a keyboard that you could really feel.

    And oh wow, I just realised. If you properly manipulated the pixels so they moved in a 'wave' of sorts, it'd be potentially possible for the computer to move items around on its surface without interaction from the user. Imagine that for tabletop games: the physical enemy pieces moved automatically by the Surface system. That would be so, so awesome.

    Unless you are talking about optical illusions, I don't think they have the technology for sensing somebody touching a light particle projected off a screen. Shit, I don't even think they have the technology to visually show what you are describing, let alone give you the ability to sense it or it to sense you. It's not a holodeck. It's just a big touch screen that can handle multiple inputs.
    Unfortuantly, protuding a small distance into thin air is probably still a long long way away, if it ever happens at all.

    There are actually holographic displays you can grab and rotate. I don't think you can feel them though, because it's just light being controlled. I can't remember if they use lasers or whatnot, but basically they sense where the light is being broken, think 'okay i'm being touched here', and act accordingly.

    As for pixels, it's impossible, that doesn't even make any sense. Unless you think of pixels as light, then it makes perfect sense.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel

    rayofash on
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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Rayofash, it won't be revolutionary NOW, true.

    However, revolutions are slow. Don't think of the now, when a single Surface table costs 5000 US dollars. Think about the ten years from now, when the only way to get a table without a Surface is to make it yourself. THAT'S when the revolution really hits.

    I mean, look at 1960s-1970s computing. They were big calculators at best. Then the software started forming, and the hardware got cheaper, and look where we are now. Capable of watching hours upon hours of video content in REAL TIME, no downloads or anything. Capable of even DEVISING a multitouch screen. You get the point? It's never about what changes the day after the product's around, it's about the changes to the product that put it everywhere, and what happens THEN.

    yalborap on
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    TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I can't believe there are people who have no vision of the kind of future this could usher in. People say all it'd change is decor... that's a giant sweeping change in it's own.

    Imagine this. Imagine a house with no television, no radio, nothing. You don't need those anymore. That room you have devoted to a TV? Meaningless now. You don't need to have a physical tv anymore. Your desk at home? With the big-ass computer monitor and the TV screen and the keyboard and the lamp and all that stuff? Gone.

    It's all built into the wall now. You're walking around your kitchen, and want to watch tv. Just take two fingers, and draw a box. Boom, a tv screen appears on the wall in front of you. You walk from the fridge to the stove, and the tv screen follows you, always staying in your point of view. No need to even swivel your head anymore to watch the screen.

    You're fixing your checkbook at your desk. Well, no more physical paper spreadsheet anymore. Just draw a square on the desk, and boom. A spredsheet appears. No need to type with a keyboard anymore, you simply write on the virtual spreadsheet. You need a calculator while fixing your checkbook. Draw one next to you, and start using it. Or even better, have it built into the spreadsheet your using. As you write your payments into the spredsheet, you see the calculations being done for you, without you doing a thing.

    No more physical phones. Imagine just talking, into the air, and having it work. No more radios, just select what you want played on the wall, and boom, it works. No more clocks. Just draw one on your wall and it starts ticking. Change it up. You want something that looks like a grandfather clock in your living room? Download grandfather clock v 3.0. Want a digital clock on your wall? Download one and drag it to the desired position.

    Wallpapers themselves become amazing. Don't like the wallpaper? Design your own. Start drawing on the wall. Download a new one. Even animate it. Or make your wall into a giant television screen. Or even a window. Make virtual windows. Always wanted to look outside and see the ocean? Draw a screen, and have it link up with wifi to provide actual video of the ocean.

    Gaming, least of all, would expand in crazy ways. Imagine the DS... EVERYWHERE. Don't like that? Imagine a gaming controller with no face buttons, but instead the buttons appear depending on how they need to appear. There's already technology to add feeling to touch screens.

    Imagine how doctors could benifit from this. Or airline services. Imagine how different movies will be. Of course this won't happen in 10 years, it probably won't happen in 20 or 30. Yes, there will be areas that never get this level of technology. But it will happen, and it will trickle down. It might take 40, 50, even 60 years, but eventually this will be the reality of what home computers are.

    This is the future.

    EDIT: And this is all ideas from our time. We can't even begin to conceive the kind of future, unthinkable uses for this technology. It's the way technology evolves. We won't know what it's capable of until it's already begun to trickle down. And if they release an SDK for surface (which, let's not kid ourselfs, they will) then imagine the possibilities. This is some very exciting stuff.

    TheSonicRetard on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    yes.

    LewieP on
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    CarnivoreCarnivore Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I just want pretty much all the technology featured in Minority Report to be true. I would be extremely pleased.

    Carnivore on
    hihi.jpg
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Carnivore wrote: »
    I just want pretty much all the technology featured in The Matrix to be true. I would be extremely pleased.

    Fix'd for me.

    LewieP on
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    Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Carnivore wrote: »
    I just want pretty much all the technology featured in Minority Report to be true. I would be extremely pleased.
    It's all right there, on that Surface that Microsoft built. And you don't even need a special bloody glove.

    In ten years, twelve year old kids are gonna see Minority Report for the first time and say "you have to use a glove? That's like a baby's toy!"

    Mr_Rose on
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    Bob The MonkeyBob The Monkey Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I really wish they'd make something like this, but with the possibility for each pixel to also have a 'height' element, and actually protrude a small distance (maybe a couple of millimetres) from the surface. That way you could have a keyboard that you could really feel.

    And oh wow, I just realised. If you properly manipulated the pixels so they moved in a 'wave' of sorts, it'd be potentially possible for the computer to move items around on its surface without interaction from the user. Imagine that for tabletop games: the physical enemy pieces moved automatically by the Surface system. That would be so, so awesome.

    Unless you are talking about optical illusions, I don't think they have the technology for sensing somebody touching a light particle projected off a screen. Shit, I don't even think they have the technology to visually show what you are describing, let alone give you the ability to sense it or it to sense you. It's not a holodeck. It's just a big touch screen that can handle multiple inputs.
    Unfortuantly, protuding a small distance into thin air is probably still a long long way away, if it ever happens at all.

    Uh, I don't mean the light. I mean the physical pixel. I have no idea how feisable it is, but having each 'pixel' as a separate physical object capable of being extended above the surface to a height dictated by software doesn't seem super unrealistic to me.

    Uh. A pixel is the result of light, it is not a seperate entity in and of itself. It's defined as the smallest possible discrete part of an image on a computer screen. In the case of a Cathode Ray Tube, it is the light from the emitter in the back of the monitor passing through the screen and into your eyes, where it is registered as a part of the image. In the case of lcds, little cell shaped thingies that emit a glow, I don't really know how they work too well, but its basically a light emitting thing, and the result is the same, your eyes registering the light as an image.

    It's impossible to talk about a pixel being "lifted off the surface by a few millimeters", because its a process and not a thing. It's a unit of measurement. It's like saying: "hey wouldn't it be great if we could lift the centimeters off this ruler a few millimeters into thin air" It's meaningless to say that.
    In order for what you want them to create to happen, you need a physical object (such as a dust particle, for example) above the surface to reflect light off and then into your eyes or you wont be able to see anything that you can measure as a pixel. What this object is I don't know (dust particles are pretty heavy really), but when talking about lifting something physical several millimeters above the surface of an object you have to consider what is holding it in place, because that is a huge distance, and gravity wont be "happy" about that. I don't think there is anything that exists that can do what you are describing.
    A possible idea is a second surface that holds some kind of gas that the light can be reflected off, like a very deep plasma screen, but then it wont really be lifted off the surface, it will just be trapped under a second surface.
    The technology to do what you want wont happen for a very long time, because you are talking about controlled anti-gravity, in a way. Perhaps some kind of magnetism or static charge to hold the physical particles up, I don't know, but these things are impossible to control to any kind of precision right now and probably for a long time to come.

    Incidentally, even if this did happen, all you would feel if you touched it is whatever is reflecting the light into your eyes. And if the force that is holding it up (lets use my suggestions here) is, eg, magnetism, its entirely possible that the weak magnetic field of your body would dissipate whatever image is being formed. If held up by a static charge, it would earth itself onto you. Zap.
    If a deep plasma screen, all you would feel is the glass outer surface.
    Also any breeze at all would probably destroy it completely by blowing away the particles, so don't breathe.

    Amazing how confusing things can get if you attribute physical properties to things that don't technically exist eh?

    I'm pretty sure I suggested that the display could have its 'pixels' as separate physical objects. As in, each 'smallest discrete dot of light' would be, effectively, a tiny screen with a resolution of 1x1, which can be moved independently of other pixels. I am well aware that in current screen technology this is not the case, but discussion of possibility is a long way from discussion of reality.

    Gosh, people seem to be putting very little effort into understanding what I'm trying to say, and a lot of effort into telling me why I'm wrong, especially when we're discussing the potential applications of future technologies.

    Bob The Monkey on
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    rayofashrayofash Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    Carnivore wrote: »
    I just want pretty much all the technology featured in Minority Report to be true. I would be extremely pleased.
    It's all right there, on that Surface that Microsoft built. And you don't even need a special bloody glove.

    In ten years, twelve year old kids are gonna see Minority Report for the first time and say "you have to use a glove? That's like a baby's toy!"

    If they implement the paper-thin OLED displays with this, then it would be like Minority Report. Otherwise these things would be like comparing the old computers with the levers that take up the whole room to the computers we have today.

    rayofash on
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    CarnivoreCarnivore Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    On my 40th birthday I wanna be reading the newspaper on one sheet of paper and touching the surface to navigate the articles, which by the way, stream into the pad throughout the day.

    Carnivore on
    hihi.jpg
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    JCRooksJCRooks Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I can't believe there are people who have no vision of the kind of future this could usher in. People say all it'd change is decor... that's a giant sweeping change in it's own.

    ... long snip of a lot of cool ideas

    This is the future.

    EDIT: And this is all ideas from our time. We can't even begin to conceive the kind of future, unthinkable uses for this technology. It's the way technology evolves. We won't know what it's capable of until it's already begun to trickle down. And if they release an SDK for surface (which, let's not kid ourselfs, they will) then imagine the possibilities. This is some very exciting stuff.

    A lot of those ideas, or similar ones, are demo-ed at the Microsoft Home, which is basically a dreamer's view of the future. BillG has done lots of demos for press and at our annual company meeting. It's a lot of cool stuff. Sure, it's not quite real yet, and there's a lot of smoke & mirrors, or it just isn't affordable/practical yet, but we still need people to envision this stuff. Eventually the practicality and affordability will be there, just like it took years for that "ultra cool flat panel monitor" tech to make it mainstream and finally become cheap enough.

    And by no means does Microsoft have a "monopoly" on these ideas. I'm certain (hoping?) that other companies are doing the same thing. Heck, that's why you have research departments dedicated to finding the "next big thing". I think it's really cool that a lot of technology (both hardware and software) is coming together to create neat products like this.

    One day, I'd love to actually join a research group that gets to think up things like this. Of course, that probably means getting my Ph.D as well, since they're super competitive ...

    JCRooks on
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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Awesomeness

    ...And then the power cuts out.

    A useful thing for me would being able to watch TV in bed, either lying on my back with the screen on the ceiling, or on my side with the screen at ninety degrees. My Latin teacher talks about putting the grammar paradigms in the bathroom so that you look at them every day and they sink in - in the future, people could have flocks of verb conjugations following them around the house like ducklings.

    Wikipedia on-demand would save running back and forth to the Internet during conversations, as would the IMBD on your armrest when you're watching a film.

    One issue I have with this futuristic screen-world is the viewing of private data - but hell, tattoo a screen onto my forearm.

    Rhesus Positive on
    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Awesomeness

    ...And then the power cuts out.

    A useful thing for me would being able to watch TV in bed, either lying on my back with the screen on the ceiling, or on my side with the screen at ninety degrees. My Latin teacher talks about putting the grammar paradigms in the bathroom so that you look at them every day and they sink in - in the future, people could have flocks of verb conjugations following them around the house like ducklings.

    Wikipedia on-demand would save running back and forth to the Internet during conversations, as would the IMBD on your armrest when you're watching a film.

    One issue I have with this futuristic screen-world is the viewing of private data - but hell, tattoo a screen onto my forearm.

    Hopefully we'll perfect wireless energy around the same time these sort of ideas start becoming reality.

    TheSonicRetard on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I really wish they'd make something like this, but with the possibility for each pixel to also have a 'height' element, and actually protrude a small distance (maybe a couple of millimetres) from the surface. That way you could have a keyboard that you could really feel.

    And oh wow, I just realised. If you properly manipulated the pixels so they moved in a 'wave' of sorts, it'd be potentially possible for the computer to move items around on its surface without interaction from the user. Imagine that for tabletop games: the physical enemy pieces moved automatically by the Surface system. That would be so, so awesome.

    Unless you are talking about optical illusions, I don't think they have the technology for sensing somebody touching a light particle projected off a screen. Shit, I don't even think they have the technology to visually show what you are describing, let alone give you the ability to sense it or it to sense you. It's not a holodeck. It's just a big touch screen that can handle multiple inputs.
    Unfortuantly, protuding a small distance into thin air is probably still a long long way away, if it ever happens at all.

    Uh, I don't mean the light. I mean the physical pixel. I have no idea how feisable it is, but having each 'pixel' as a separate physical object capable of being extended above the surface to a height dictated by software doesn't seem super unrealistic to me.

    Uh. A pixel is the result of light, it is not a seperate entity in and of itself. It's defined as the smallest possible discrete part of an image on a computer screen. In the case of a Cathode Ray Tube, it is the light from the emitter in the back of the monitor passing through the screen and into your eyes, where it is registered as a part of the image. In the case of lcds, little cell shaped thingies that emit a glow, I don't really know how they work too well, but its basically a light emitting thing, and the result is the same, your eyes registering the light as an image.

    It's impossible to talk about a pixel being "lifted off the surface by a few millimeters", because its a process and not a thing. It's a unit of measurement. It's like saying: "hey wouldn't it be great if we could lift the centimeters off this ruler a few millimeters into thin air" It's meaningless to say that.
    In order for what you want them to create to happen, you need a physical object (such as a dust particle, for example) above the surface to reflect light off and then into your eyes or you wont be able to see anything that you can measure as a pixel. What this object is I don't know (dust particles are pretty heavy really), but when talking about lifting something physical several millimeters above the surface of an object you have to consider what is holding it in place, because that is a huge distance, and gravity wont be "happy" about that. I don't think there is anything that exists that can do what you are describing.
    A possible idea is a second surface that holds some kind of gas that the light can be reflected off, like a very deep plasma screen, but then it wont really be lifted off the surface, it will just be trapped under a second surface.
    The technology to do what you want wont happen for a very long time, because you are talking about controlled anti-gravity, in a way. Perhaps some kind of magnetism or static charge to hold the physical particles up, I don't know, but these things are impossible to control to any kind of precision right now and probably for a long time to come.

    Incidentally, even if this did happen, all you would feel if you touched it is whatever is reflecting the light into your eyes. And if the force that is holding it up (lets use my suggestions here) is, eg, magnetism, its entirely possible that the weak magnetic field of your body would dissipate whatever image is being formed. If held up by a static charge, it would earth itself onto you. Zap.
    If a deep plasma screen, all you would feel is the glass outer surface.
    Also any breeze at all would probably destroy it completely by blowing away the particles, so don't breathe.

    Amazing how confusing things can get if you attribute physical properties to things that don't technically exist eh?

    I'm pretty sure I suggested that the display could have its 'pixels' as separate physical objects. As in, each 'smallest discrete dot of light' would be, effectively, a tiny screen with a resolution of 1x1, which can be moved independently of other pixels. I am well aware that in current screen technology this is not the case, but discussion of possibility is a long way from discussion of reality.

    Gosh, people seem to be putting very little effort into understanding what I'm trying to say, and a lot of effort into telling me why I'm wrong, especially when we're discussing the potential applications of future technologies.

    Ah, I think I see the problem.
    We are talking about stuff using very imprecise language, is there any wonder we aren't getting each other? Pixel only has one definition. But you didn't indicate you were making a new one. How am I supposed to know that pixel for you means something other than measurement?
    It's just communication error.
    So you are talking about, like, a keyboard made out of light emmiting material or something that is still connected to the surface but is raised? Or are you wanting the images to be able to change?

    I'm having difficulty understanding still what you are saying. English is so clumsy.

    Also just talk to me, you don't need to refer to me as "people".

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I really wish they'd make something like this, but with the possibility for each pixel to also have a 'height' element, and actually protrude a small distance (maybe a couple of millimetres) from the surface. That way you could have a keyboard that you could really feel.

    And oh wow, I just realised. If you properly manipulated the pixels so they moved in a 'wave' of sorts, it'd be potentially possible for the computer to move items around on its surface without interaction from the user. Imagine that for tabletop games: the physical enemy pieces moved automatically by the Surface system. That would be so, so awesome.

    Unless you are talking about optical illusions, I don't think they have the technology for sensing somebody touching a light particle projected off a screen. Shit, I don't even think they have the technology to visually show what you are describing, let alone give you the ability to sense it or it to sense you. It's not a holodeck. It's just a big touch screen that can handle multiple inputs.
    Unfortuantly, protuding a small distance into thin air is probably still a long long way away, if it ever happens at all.

    Uh, I don't mean the light. I mean the physical pixel. I have no idea how feisable it is, but having each 'pixel' as a separate physical object capable of being extended above the surface to a height dictated by software doesn't seem super unrealistic to me.

    Uh. A pixel is the result of light, it is not a seperate entity in and of itself. It's defined as the smallest possible discrete part of an image on a computer screen. In the case of a Cathode Ray Tube, it is the light from the emitter in the back of the monitor passing through the screen and into your eyes, where it is registered as a part of the image. In the case of lcds, little cell shaped thingies that emit a glow, I don't really know how they work too well, but its basically a light emitting thing, and the result is the same, your eyes registering the light as an image.

    It's impossible to talk about a pixel being "lifted off the surface by a few millimeters", because its a process and not a thing. It's a unit of measurement. It's like saying: "hey wouldn't it be great if we could lift the centimeters off this ruler a few millimeters into thin air" It's meaningless to say that.
    In order for what you want them to create to happen, you need a physical object (such as a dust particle, for example) above the surface to reflect light off and then into your eyes or you wont be able to see anything that you can measure as a pixel. What this object is I don't know (dust particles are pretty heavy really), but when talking about lifting something physical several millimeters above the surface of an object you have to consider what is holding it in place, because that is a huge distance, and gravity wont be "happy" about that. I don't think there is anything that exists that can do what you are describing.
    A possible idea is a second surface that holds some kind of gas that the light can be reflected off, like a very deep plasma screen, but then it wont really be lifted off the surface, it will just be trapped under a second surface.
    The technology to do what you want wont happen for a very long time, because you are talking about controlled anti-gravity, in a way. Perhaps some kind of magnetism or static charge to hold the physical particles up, I don't know, but these things are impossible to control to any kind of precision right now and probably for a long time to come.

    Incidentally, even if this did happen, all you would feel if you touched it is whatever is reflecting the light into your eyes. And if the force that is holding it up (lets use my suggestions here) is, eg, magnetism, its entirely possible that the weak magnetic field of your body would dissipate whatever image is being formed. If held up by a static charge, it would earth itself onto you. Zap.
    If a deep plasma screen, all you would feel is the glass outer surface.
    Also any breeze at all would probably destroy it completely by blowing away the particles, so don't breathe.

    Amazing how confusing things can get if you attribute physical properties to things that don't technically exist eh?

    I'm pretty sure I suggested that the display could have its 'pixels' as separate physical objects. As in, each 'smallest discrete dot of light' would be, effectively, a tiny screen with a resolution of 1x1, which can be moved independently of other pixels. I am well aware that in current screen technology this is not the case, but discussion of possibility is a long way from discussion of reality.

    Gosh, people seem to be putting very little effort into understanding what I'm trying to say, and a lot of effort into telling me why I'm wrong, especially when we're discussing the potential applications of future technologies.

    Ah, I think I see the problem.
    We are talking about stuff using very imprecise language, is there any wonder we aren't getting each other? Pixel only has one definition. But you didn't indicate you were making a new one. How am I supposed to know that pixel for you means something other than measurement?
    It's just communication error.
    So you are talking about, like, a keyboard made out of light emmiting material or something that is still connected to the surface but is raised? Or are you wanting the images to be able to change?

    I'm having difficulty understanding still what you are saying. English is so clumsy.

    Also just talk to me, you don't need to refer to me as "people".

    I keep pointing this out, and I don't think people are reading it, but we already have touch screens which provide tactile feedback. There are phones in japan with touchscreen keypads, and when you press the buttons on the screen, it feels like you're physically pressing a button.

    The exact technology behind it is beyond me, but from what I read, your brain is tricked by vibration and makes you think you're pressing an actual button.

    TheSonicRetard on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited May 2007

    I keep pointing this out, and I don't think people are reading it, but we already have touch screens which provide tactile feedback. There are phones in japan with touchscreen keypads, and when you press the buttons on the screen, it feels like you're physically pressing a button.

    The exact technology behind it is beyond me, but from what I read, your brain is tricked by vibration and makes you think you're pressing an actual button.

    That's interesting.

    There you go Bob, no need for pixel stuff, just get your vibration on if you want tactile feedback.

    You could have a flat keyboard on the Surface that would feel like you are pressing keys.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    PharezonPharezon Struggle is an illusion. Victory is in the Qun.Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Have you guys forgotten Endwar? http://www.gametrailers.com/umwatcher.php?id=67524

    That military commander using the touch table will be realized. Freakin sweet.

    Pharezon on
    jkZziGc.png
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    TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited May 2007

    I keep pointing this out, and I don't think people are reading it, but we already have touch screens which provide tactile feedback. There are phones in japan with touchscreen keypads, and when you press the buttons on the screen, it feels like you're physically pressing a button.

    The exact technology behind it is beyond me, but from what I read, your brain is tricked by vibration and makes you think you're pressing an actual button.

    That's interesting.

    There you go Bob, no need for pixel stuff, just get your vibration on if you want tactile feedback.

    You could have a flat keyboard on the Surface that would feel like you are pressing keys.

    Yeah, we had a topic about it here on PA... but I can't find it anymore.

    TheSonicRetard on
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    DigDug2000DigDug2000 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Ah, I think I see the problem. We are talking about stuff using very imprecise language, is there any wonder we aren't getting each other? Pixel only has one definition. But you didn't indicate you were making a new one. How am I supposed to know that pixel for you means something other than measurement?
    It's just communication error. So you are talking about, like, a keyboard made out of light emmiting material or something that is still connected to the surface but is raised? Or are you wanting the images to be able to change?

    I'm having difficulty understanding still what you are saying. English is so clumsy. Also just talk to me, you don't need to refer to me as "people".

    I keep pointing this out, and I don't think people are reading it, but we already have touch screens which provide tactile feedback. There are phones in japan with touchscreen keypads, and when you press the buttons on the screen, it feels like you're physically pressing a button.

    The exact technology behind it is beyond me, but from what I read, your brain is tricked by vibration and makes you think you're pressing an actual button.
    I don't think I really agree with you about "pixels" being light. Pixels are tiny little devices on a screen. It doesn't matter how they're lit, whether its an electron striking them or an LED with a voltage put across it. They're still just little devices. Thousands of them arranged in a grid to form a screen. All he's suggesting is that each pixel, or even every set of 10 pixels, should be able to be moved up or down somehow to create a surface texture.

    As far as I know, something like that is probably possible with things like LED's, as each one has its own circuitry anyway. You're just putting them on a stick and pushing it up and down (or just use a field to pull or push it if you wanna get fancy). The trickiest part I imagine is that people want screens with smaller and smaller pixels, meaning that you'd also have to miniaturize whatever was pushing them up and down too.

    I looked at those haptic displays TSR. Looks like they pretty much just vibrate to give ya' feedback, sorta like the click whell on an iPod, except... vibrating instead of clicking. They claim it feels like a button. The mind is so weird sometimes, maybe it works.

    DigDug2000 on
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited May 2007
    For those of you seeking haptic feedback via textured or raised screens, take a gander at paisoelectric surfaces.

    If they can create an OLED cloth that is Paisoelectrically charged, then you can send a current through the cloth that would force it to take on rigid shapes.

    Yes, like the cape from batman. But folks were talking about this well before the film.

    syndalis on
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    PharezonPharezon Struggle is an illusion. Victory is in the Qun.Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Pharezon on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Will it come preloaded with an LCARS interface?

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    ArcSynArcSyn Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    What if they integrated this technology with something similar to what we've seen in XMen (the scene in the first movie as they plan to approach the statue of liberty with the jet and you see the table raise up to form an image of NY and then slide and move toward the statue) where each pixel is also attached to a fiber-optic rod capable of raising to create a 3D topographic representation of an image? I imagine it would be quite fragile with current technology, but amazing to see in practice.

    This could also create a similar tactile feedback for a keyboard by lowering the rods as you touch them simulating a keyboard. Similar to my phone though, I feel that eventually we won't need a button to press, but rather just noticing a certain amount of necessary pressure before recognizing a keypress to avoid accidental typing.

    ArcSyn on
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    ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Most of the ground-breaking stuff people are talking about in this thread would be a consequence of having a thin, extremely cheap screen, not multi-touch.

    Æthelred on
    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited May 2007
    Most of the ground-breaking stuff people are talking about in this thread would be a consequence of having a thin, extremely cheap screen, not multi-touch.
    And you do not see multitouch as a vital part of the whole experience?

    Multitouch is one of the biggest hurdles, IMO. I don't even need to have all of my walls replaced by this stuff; the kitchen table, the coffee table... my car console... those will all be good enough to sparkt he revolution, and the thinner screens that replace walls can come later.

    syndalis on
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    Dublo7Dublo7 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I must say, it does look pretty fucking sweet.

    Dublo7 on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    ArcSyn wrote: »
    What if they integrated this technology with something similar to what we've seen in XMen (the scene in the first movie as they plan to approach the statue of liberty with the jet and you see the table raise up to form an image of NY and then slide and move toward the statue) where each pixel is also attached to a fiber-optic rod capable of raising to create a 3D topographic representation of an image? I imagine it would be quite fragile with current technology, but amazing to see in practice.

    This could also create a similar tactile feedback for a keyboard by lowering the rods as you touch them simulating a keyboard. Similar to my phone though, I feel that eventually we won't need a button to press, but rather just noticing a certain amount of necessary pressure before recognizing a keypress to avoid accidental typing.

    tactile porn you say...

    DanHibiki on
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    MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    DigDug2000 wrote: »
    Ah, I think I see the problem. We are talking about stuff using very imprecise language, is there any wonder we aren't getting each other? Pixel only has one definition. But you didn't indicate you were making a new one. How am I supposed to know that pixel for you means something other than measurement?
    It's just communication error. So you are talking about, like, a keyboard made out of light emmiting material or something that is still connected to the surface but is raised? Or are you wanting the images to be able to change?

    I'm having difficulty understanding still what you are saying. English is so clumsy. Also just talk to me, you don't need to refer to me as "people".

    I keep pointing this out, and I don't think people are reading it, but we already have touch screens which provide tactile feedback. There are phones in japan with touchscreen keypads, and when you press the buttons on the screen, it feels like you're physically pressing a button.

    The exact technology behind it is beyond me, but from what I read, your brain is tricked by vibration and makes you think you're pressing an actual button.
    I don't think I really agree with you about "pixels" being light. Pixels are tiny little devices on a screen. It doesn't matter how they're lit, whether its an electron striking them or an LED with a voltage put across it. They're still just little devices. Thousands of them arranged in a grid to form a screen. All he's suggesting is that each pixel, or even every set of 10 pixels, should be able to be moved up or down somehow to create a surface texture.

    As far as I know, something like that is probably possible with things like LED's, as each one has its own circuitry anyway. You're just putting them on a stick and pushing it up and down (or just use a field to pull or push it if you wanna get fancy). The trickiest part I imagine is that people want screens with smaller and smaller pixels, meaning that you'd also have to miniaturize whatever was pushing them up and down too.

    I looked at those haptic displays TSR. Looks like they pretty much just vibrate to give ya' feedback, sorta like the click whell on an iPod, except... vibrating instead of clicking. They claim it feels like a button. The mind is so weird sometimes, maybe it works.

    Let's end this.
    Wikipedia wrote:
    A pixel is generally thought of as the smallest complete sample of an image. The definition is highly context sensitive; for example, we can speak of printed pixels in a page, or pixels carried by electronic signals, or represented by digital values, or pixels on a display device, or pixels in a digital camera (photosensor elements).

    You're both right.

    To put what he was theorizing in simpler terms, remember that metal display in the first X-Men? The one that raised up small columns of metal to form 3D shapes? He's thinking of something along that line. A display made of thousands of small, raiseable screens. Even if they only moved up a millimeter it would be enough of a difference to make buttons. And yes, with the right programming, they could move objects around a table.

    However, It wouldn't be feasible for a LONG time as each pixel/screen/whatever would need to be synced to the rest of the display AND would need a mechanism for moving it up and down. That's intricate work. Probably a lot easier to break too.

    MuddBudd on
    There's no plan, there's no race to be run
    The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
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    ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    syndalis wrote: »
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Most of the ground-breaking stuff people are talking about in this thread would be a consequence of having a thin, extremely cheap screen, not multi-touch.
    And you do not see multitouch as a vital part of the whole experience?

    Not really, no. Looking at TSR's list:
    Imagine this. Imagine a house with no television, no radio, nothing. You don't need those anymore. That room you have devoted to a TV? Meaningless now. You don't need to have a physical tv anymore. Your desk at home? With the big-ass computer monitor and the TV screen and the keyboard and the lamp and all that stuff? Gone.

    'cause of cheap screens.
    It's all built into the wall now. You're walking around your kitchen, and want to watch tv. Just take two fingers, and draw a box. Boom, a tv screen appears on the wall in front of you. You walk from the fridge to the stove, and the tv screen follows you, always staying in your point of view. No need to even swivel your head anymore to watch the screen.

    Take one finger. ;-)
    You're fixing your checkbook at your desk. Well, no more physical paper spreadsheet anymore. Just draw a square on the desk, and boom. A spredsheet appears. No need to type with a keyboard anymore, you simply write on the virtual spreadsheet. You need a calculator while fixing your checkbook. Draw one next to you, and start using it. Or even better, have it built into the spreadsheet your using. As you write your payments into the spredsheet, you see the calculations being done for you, without you doing a thing.

    I guess typing requires two fingers at once - for the shift key. If we're imagining the future though, why not go the whole hog and have speech-recognition?
    No more physical phones. Imagine just talking, into the air, and having it work. No more radios, just select what you want played on the wall, and boom, it works. No more clocks. Just draw one on your wall and it starts ticking. Change it up. You want something that looks like a grandfather clock in your living room? Download grandfather clock v 3.0. Want a digital clock on your wall? Download one and drag it to the desired position.

    Wallpapers themselves become amazing. Don't like the wallpaper? Design your own. Start drawing on the wall. Download a new one. Even animate it. Or make your wall into a giant television screen. Or even a window. Make virtual windows. Always wanted to look outside and see the ocean? Draw a screen, and have it link up with wifi to provide actual video of the ocean.
    Cheap screens again.
    Gaming, least of all, would expand in crazy ways. Imagine the DS... EVERYWHERE. Don't like that? Imagine a gaming controller with no face buttons, but instead the buttons appear depending on how they need to appear. There's already technology to add feeling to touch screens.

    But if we're talking advanced gaming, yeah, multi-touch will be awesome.


    I'm sympathetic to what TSR is saying here, but the key component is surface-monitors at very low cost. I could technically cover my house with screens at the moment, but it'd be hella expensive.

    Æthelred on
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    CyrixdCyrixd Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I'm sympathetic to what TSR is saying here, but the key component is surface-monitors at very low cost. I could technically cover my house with screens at the moment, but it'd be hella expensive.

    But could you draw on said screens, let alone have the amount of control and interaction that TSR is talking about? A "cheap screen" is nothing at all like an interactive multi-touch platform.

    Cyrixd on
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    ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Cyrixd wrote: »
    I'm sympathetic to what TSR is saying here, but the key component is surface-monitors at very low cost. I could technically cover my house with screens at the moment, but it'd be hella expensive.

    But could you draw on said screens, let alone have the amount of control and interaction that TSR is talking about? A "cheap screen" is nothing at all like an interactive multi-touch platform.

    I know, but nearly everything touted in here as a benefit could be done with a single stylus. I'm open to suggestions about what it could do that's as ground-breaking as having ubiquitous monitors / computers. I've no doubt multi-touch will be very cool as a workstation, but all the talk of them being all over your house got a bit much.

    Æthelred on
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    CyrixdCyrixd Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Cyrixd wrote: »
    Æthelred wrote: »
    I'm sympathetic to what TSR is saying here, but the key component is surface-monitors at very low cost. I could technically cover my house with screens at the moment, but it'd be hella expensive.

    But could you draw on said screens, let alone have the amount of control and interaction that TSR is talking about? A "cheap screen" is nothing at all like an interactive multi-touch platform.

    I know, but nearly everything touted in here as a benefit could be done with a single stylus. I'm open to suggestions about what it could do that's as ground-breaking as having ubiquitous monitors / computers. I've no doubt multi-touch will be very cool as a workstation, but all the talk of them being all over your house got a bit much.

    But is it done today? Can you actually have a home system set up where you can create a TV viewing window anywhere there is a screen? Can you set one wall of a room to a live video feed from a beach, and then change it back to any number of different wallpapers?

    To me, that's the true appeal of this technology. It's not just 'ooo multi-touch!' but it's the possible applications of it. Multi-touch facilitates its use, such as providing an easy platform for consumers to shop on, or a simple interface for the technology disinclined to program their schedule, but it's not the reason this is so revolutionary. I like TSR's ideas a lot, because that's 'the future' aspect of what the Surface could become, and I think that's what Microsoft aims to do with it.

    Cyrixd on
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    YesNoMuYesNoMu Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Multitouch in general, and integration into the home specifically, is very exciting. This is a great time to be alive.

    YesNoMu on
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    Dead Guy PerezDead Guy Perez Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Feral wrote: »
    Will it come preloaded with an LCARS interface?


    Maybe not, but some Trekkie will probably have a skin put together for download within weeks of public release.

    My question is whether Surface will talk to me with Majel Barrett's voice. Then I'll know I'm living in the future.

    Dead Guy Perez on
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    DigDug2000DigDug2000 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Heh. I remember hearing awhile ago about you being able to just paint OLED's onto your walls as light sources. That sounds, overall, more useful to me than TVs that follow me around or spreadsheets appearing on my desk (unlike my normal checkbook, which I keep on my desk). That might just be because 2/3 of the rooms in my apartment doesn't even have built in light fixtures though.

    To be honest, most of those touchscreen house ideas just sound kinda freaky to me. I'm against it all.

    DigDug2000 on
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    ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Computers everywhere in our homes, with cameras in? Who sees what year this is going.


    To Cyrixd: I can't have any of that - because computers and monitors are too expensive and aren't built that large, not because of any technical restrictions. Though I've no idea how big a monitor you can actually make before they start being impracticable. What's the biggest ever produced?

    Æthelred on
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    MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Feral wrote: »
    Will it come preloaded with an LCARS interface?


    Maybe not, but some Trekkie will probably have a skin put together for download within weeks of public release.

    My question is whether Surface will talk to me with Majel Barrett's voice. Then I'll know I'm living in the future.

    Here's the commercial for it.

    Some nerd is using the Surface with LCARS, and it starts responding with her voice. He is ecstatic and mentions this aloud. Perhaps he is showing it off to his friends.

    Camera cuts to just his face, and Majel Barrett comes out of nowhere behind him, whispers in his ear "It's not a program" in her most ominous voice. Cue dramatic sting music and cut to black.

    MuddBudd on
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    The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Will it come preloaded with an LCARS interface?


    Maybe not, but some Trekkie will probably have a skin put together for download within weeks of public release.

    My question is whether Surface will talk to me with Majel Barrett's voice. Then I'll know I'm living in the future.

    Here's the commercial for it.

    Some nerd is using the Surface with LCARS, and it starts responding with her voice. He is ecstatic and mentions this aloud. Perhaps he is showing it off to his friends.

    Camera cuts to just his face, and Majel Barrett comes out of nowhere behind him, whispers in his ear "It's not a program" in her most ominous voice. Cue dramatic sting music and cut to black.

    I'll buy seven.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited May 2007
    If your entire wall was a large cheap screen, you will really want multitouch, if for no other reason than it would suck having all that real estate and only having one person able to use it.

    You could not do a gaming table in the way we have discussed with one stylus, unless everyone is willing to wait their turn to do their writing and shit.

    Really, multitouch is an essential part of the equation.

    syndalis on
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