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[Star Trek] Keep On Trekkin' (Lower Decks stuff in SPOILERS)

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    I just feel the episode lacked one final scene, where they sit down with Tuvok and Neelix and finally ask them what they want.

    "Ok, knowing all that we know now, and knowing we can replicate the accident again, how do you feel? Do you want to go back to being Tuvix and let him live?"
    "Fuck the fuck off no FUCKING way.
    "All right. Now what's your say, Neelix?"

    Or serious talk, if they genuinely had that scene and both said something to the effect of "No we don't want to go back, thank you for saving us", would that have just broken the whole "moral quandary" issue?

    Imo no, it wouldn't. The solution still involved the destruction of a sentient being with its own wants and needs. Outside of a fantasy third option "we just re-jigger the boondoggle to make all three of them survive" there were no good options, and that was the point. It wasn't intended to be a feel good story where there's a last minute perfect solution, it was supposed to be a story about being forced to choose between two bad options, and dealing with the consequences*.

    *except for the consequences part because it's Voyager and the reset button got hit at the end of the episode and no one ever talks about this ever again

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Pale Moonlight frames the entire story around Sisko trying to come to terms with what he'd done. Even if DS9 had been a completely episodic show, that framing would still have put the focus on the morality of Sisko's choices. Tuvix... not so much. It's the standard linear things happen storytelling with the dilemma coming at the very end of the tale, and at the end the only person who stands up for Neelix is the Doctor. Janeway made the decision and pulled the trigger, but the entire bridge crew agreed with her, or lacked the spine to formally object. Pale Moonlight has multiple people objecting or giving Sisko the stink eye, or in the case of Quark being really happy and excited at what he's doing.

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    Pale Moonlight nobody except Sisko and Garak really knew what was going on, but everyone who had to get involved with a small part didn't like it - Bashir only knew that Sisko was doing something with biowhatsit gel, and Odo only knew he couldn't lock up a troublemaker, but for both that was enough to object. Even Sisko tries to back out, it's Garak who pulls the trigger and kills Vreenak, clearly his plan all along. Sisko then spends the framing scenes removing his uniform and ends by trying to convince himself he can live with it, and clearly failing.

    Voyager's entire crew was fully informed and in the loop, and Janeway never flinched.


    To repeat what I said about The Thaw the other day: Sisko is intimidating, but Janeway is chilling.

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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Unfortunately for Tuvix, Janeway's solution to the trolley problem requires that somebody dies.

    Actually, Janeway's solution to the trolley problem is to use the Tomas Riker transporter bug to create a second trolley and run over both sets of people simultaneously.

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  • HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    edited May 5
    Richy wrote: »
    Unfortunately for Tuvix, Janeway's solution to the trolley problem requires that somebody dies.

    Actually, Janeway's solution to the trolley problem is to use the Tomas Riker transporter bug to create a second trolley and run over both sets of people simultaneously.

    janeway problems require janeway solutions.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Unfortunately for Tuvix, Janeway's solution to the trolley problem requires that somebody dies.

    So do all solutions to the trolley problem. That's the point of the trolley problem.

    Except the trolley problem usually starts off with everyone alive. If you think that Tuvok and Neelix are dead, then it's more like necromancy fueled by human sacrifice.
    I think what's extra disturbing is that there was a month between his creation and the eventual development of the technique that would kill him. This wasn't a snap decision, it was four weeks of research on how to undo this person's existence.

    There's been many variations for as long as I'm aware. That distinction is irrelevant to the core idea of the trolley problem. Part of the idea has always been action vs inaction. Whatever you do someone lives and someone dies. But does it feel different if you just do nothing rather then actively chose? The episode presents 2 different options. Either you do nothing and 2 people are dead or you throw the switch and 1 person is dead.

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    See I absolutely love the characterization of Janeway as someone who is somewhat merciless in getting towards her desired conclusion. Not someone who is evil, mind you, but someone who knows she's out on the brink without the resources of Starfleet, who has to make do with what little she can find. The few times Janeway is ever called on her actions in the show, it's always presented as a misunderstanding by the person accusing her - I wish more of those moments were really about how Janeway made a mistake, how she genuinely did choose something harmful because all paths led to someone getting harmed and she had to choose from many bad options, or even just because she fucked up.

    I think if Janeway as this anyway, since either the writers or the show's producer did ultimately make her this way without intending to because they didn't think things through. Like so many things about Voyager, I just wish it had been more intentional.

    While it doesn't seem that any rich were eaten. It definitely feels like a soup course with broth made from rich stock - bouillonaire if you will - was had.

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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    voyager was okay. it had the potential to be great

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited May 5
    Cambiata wrote: »
    See I absolutely love the characterization of Janeway as someone who is somewhat merciless in getting towards her desired conclusion. Not someone who is evil, mind you, but someone who knows she's out on the brink without the resources of Starfleet, who has to make do with what little she can find. The few times Janeway is ever called on her actions in the show, it's always presented as a misunderstanding by the person accusing her - I wish more of those moments were really about how Janeway made a mistake, how she genuinely did choose something harmful because all paths led to someone getting harmed and she had to choose from many bad options, or even just because she fucked up.

    I think if Janeway as this anyway, since either the writers or the show's producer did ultimately make her this way without intending to because they didn't think things through. Like so many things about Voyager, I just wish it had been more intentional.

    This is very similar to how I view Voyager, and it made me like the show a lot more.

    One addition I have: she was not a good captain at the start of the series and did not have the full confidence of command. Her mission in the Badlands was one that she couldn't really fail - she could capture or kill the Maquis and it's problem solved. If she retrieved Tuvok but lost the Maquis it's at least a partial success. If she failed to retrieve she hopefully won't blow his cover in which case the mission continues. If Tuvok were killed she would be basically weapons free in the vastly superior ship, so the only real failure condition (lose Tuvok AND the Maquis) is the least likely (if Tuvok died and she slaughtered the Maquis, the failure would haunt her, but to Starfleet... Spies die and Tuvok accepted the risks, and while capture was preferable killing the Maquis is going to be a politically acceptable outcome).

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I was just introduced to the Jem HDar at the end of season two and that's a great introduction! They blew up a galaxy class ship! (That's what the one that looks like the Enterprise. Right?)

    Also, glad to see Quark's work on Tulaberry Wine futures is paying off.

    Luwuxana Troi is great and I think I have her Star Trek TCG card somewhere. She has like Diplomacy x2.

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I like the Voyager episide where they're getting experimented on and Janeway (under stimulation of her aggressive tendencies) snaps and flies through a dangerous star formation to scare the aliens off.

  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    i remember a weird episode where an entity took over the ship and kicked everyone off and Janeway was like "Oh, btw, you need people standing around pressing buttons all day or else the ship just falls apart in a week. lol"

  • MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    Pale Moonlight nobody except Sisko and Garak really knew what was going on, but everyone who had to get involved with a small part didn't like it - Bashir only knew that Sisko was doing something with biowhatsit gel, and Odo only knew he couldn't lock up a troublemaker, but for both that was enough to object. Even Sisko tries to back out, it's Garak who pulls the trigger and kills Vreenak, clearly his plan all along. Sisko then spends the framing scenes removing his uniform and ends by trying to convince himself he can live with it, and clearly failing.

    Voyager's entire crew was fully informed and in the loop, and Janeway never flinched.


    To repeat what I said about The Thaw the other day: Sisko is intimidating, but Janeway is chilling.

    Pale Moonlight also involved Siskin making some rather more consequential decisions - he doesn't just kill Vreenak, he kills everyone on that ship, as well as (IIRC) the forger, subverts the justice system, and traffics in extremely dangerous contraband, all of which will lead to a war with a major power if it's ever discovered. He should treat it as a much bigger deal than the Tuvix situation, because it is a much bigger deal.

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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited May 5
    CroakerBC wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    since tuvix came up:

    I do not understand why people hate janeway in this episode. ya sure she sucks, but not because of this. she clearly did what had to be done which was restore 2 god damn living people who only merged cause of a freak accident, neither of which seemed particularly troubled about being revived at the end of the show!

    Because utilitarianism isn’t everything. She started with two people, sure. But then she got one person, a unique, loving feeling breathing individual who did not want to die. And she killed that person to get the other two back.

    That kind of call is what they (don’t) pay her for, but it’s by no means an obvious choice.

    ETA: I seem to remember that Janeway really isn’t on board with Tuvix as a person, either, and essentially starts from a position of abrogating their autonomy at all. But it’s been a while, so I may be mixing that up with the way she treats the Doctor.

    right but tuvix sucks

    so that makes it a lot easier

    edit -

    Tuvix didn't want to be "dead" any more than Tuvok and Neelix wanted to be "dead"; they both have every right to life as well, and they have prior claim to exist over Tuvix essentially forcing the two people to remain as himself. Leaving them as Tuvix is basically trapping them both in a life they didn't choose.

    But the big thing that falls apart for me is that Neelix is empathetic enough and Tuvok smart and rational enough that their merged experience would produce somebody who, yes, would wish to live, but would also be unwilling to keep their life at the expense of two others especially when the singular entity knows and feels the lives of being two people before. Tuvix having a breakdown about wishing to live? Yeah, definitely buy that. But I would've bought the situation a whole lot more if Tuvix figured out a way to split himself and did it while the crew tried to figure things out, then the question was left hanging with the crew what they would've done.

    Janeway's handling of the situation was pretty nasty, though.


    ok this serious reply is a lot better than my joke reply

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  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    My only response to the Tuvix debate is this:
    dr8yb5dzrn2t.jpg

    That will be all.

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited May 5
    Casual wrote: »
    I just feel the episode lacked one final scene, where they sit down with Tuvok and Neelix and finally ask them what they want.

    "Ok, knowing all that we know now, and knowing we can replicate the accident again, how do you feel? Do you want to go back to being Tuvix and let him live?"
    "Fuck the fuck off no FUCKING way.
    "All right. Now what's your say, Neelix?"

    Or serious talk, if they genuinely had that scene and both said something to the effect of "No we don't want to go back, thank you for saving us", would that have just broken the whole "moral quandary" issue?

    Imo no, it wouldn't. The solution still involved the destruction of a sentient being with its own wants and needs. Outside of a fantasy third option "we just re-jigger the boondoggle to make all three of them survive" there were no good options, and that was the point. It wasn't intended to be a feel good story where there's a last minute perfect solution, it was supposed to be a story about being forced to choose between two bad options, and dealing with the consequences*.

    *except for the consequences part because it's Voyager and the reset button got hit at the end of the episode and no one ever talks about this ever again

    I would feel fine with the episode if Tuvok and Neelix harbored resentment, both of them remember the terror that Janeway was about to murder them

    but really Tuvix was a better character than Neelix and Tuvok put together, mostly because Neelix' negative rating surpassed Tuvok's positive rating

    maybe like another way out of the no win scenario is that Janeway could have sacrificed Harry to create Neerry or Heelix while giving her Tuvok back

    override367 on
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    I just feel the episode lacked one final scene, where they sit down with Tuvok and Neelix and finally ask them what they want.

    "Ok, knowing all that we know now, and knowing we can replicate the accident again, how do you feel? Do you want to go back to being Tuvix and let him live?"
    "Fuck the fuck off no FUCKING way.
    "All right. Now what's your say, Neelix?"

    Or serious talk, if they genuinely had that scene and both said something to the effect of "No we don't want to go back, thank you for saving us", would that have just broken the whole "moral quandary" issue?

    Imo no, it wouldn't. The solution still involved the destruction of a sentient being with its own wants and needs. Outside of a fantasy third option "we just re-jigger the boondoggle to make all three of them survive" there were no good options, and that was the point. It wasn't intended to be a feel good story where there's a last minute perfect solution, it was supposed to be a story about being forced to choose between two bad options, and dealing with the consequences*.

    *except for the consequences part because it's Voyager and the reset button got hit at the end of the episode and no one ever talks about this ever again

    I would feel fine with the episode if Tuvok and Neelix harbored resentment, both of them remember the terror that Janeway was about to murder them

    but really Tuvix was a better character than Neelix and Tuvok put together, mostly because Neelix' negative rating surpassed Tuvok's positive rating

    maybe like another way out of the no win scenario is that Janeway could have sacrificed Harry to create Neerry or Heelix while giving her Tuvok back

    I agree, Voyager sucked at following through on consequences and that robbed the story of a lot of impact.

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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    What if the planet the doctor got cloned to that thought they were villians was right all along?

    override367
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    What if the planet the doctor got cloned to that thought they were villians was right all along?

    what if that time the crew got kidnapped, they never came back, and the entire crew ended p just being the doctor making copies of himself so it was just 200 robert picardos

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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    What if the planet the doctor got cloned to that thought they were villians was right all along?

    what if that time the crew got kidnapped, they never came back, and the entire crew ended p just being the doctor making copies of himself so it was just 200 robert picardos

    200 Robert Picardos...
    Sounds like the Doctor has a great follow up holo-novel in him.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Okay well that bad ass reveal of the Defiant didn't last now did it?

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  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Unfortunately for Tuvix, Janeway's solution to the trolley problem requires that somebody dies.

    So do all solutions to the trolley problem. That's the point of the trolley problem.

    Except the trolley problem usually starts off with everyone alive. If you think that Tuvok and Neelix are dead, then it's more like necromancy fueled by human sacrifice.
    I think what's extra disturbing is that there was a month between his creation and the eventual development of the technique that would kill him. This wasn't a snap decision, it was four weeks of research on how to undo this person's existence.

    There's been many variations for as long as I'm aware. That distinction is irrelevant to the core idea of the trolley problem. Part of the idea has always been action vs inaction. Whatever you do someone lives and someone dies. But does it feel different if you just do nothing rather then actively chose? The episode presents 2 different options. Either you do nothing and 2 people are dead or you throw the switch and 1 person is dead.

    I don't think it's irrelevant, because the question is now about killing one living person to bring back (for all intents and purposes) two people who are already dead. It was never established that Tuvok and Neelix were somehow still existing as distinct entities within a Tuvix gestalt, but that he was (again, for all intents and purposes) their child. The blending of both into something new and unique and distinct. That's fundamentally different than the core idea of just swapping one stranger for two friends.

    It also should be mentioned that Janeway intentionally ran Voyager as a Starfleet ship. One of Starfleet's mission statements is discovering new life. Tuvix was that new life. And she decides to kill him because he's not her friend. Not only is she a murderer, she's a hypocrite.

    For me, Tuvix is a dumb episode masquerading as a smart one. The choice really isn't difficult, and she made the wrong one.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    I've never actually seen the episode. Sometimes I think that may be for the best.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 6
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Unfortunately for Tuvix, Janeway's solution to the trolley problem requires that somebody dies.

    So do all solutions to the trolley problem. That's the point of the trolley problem.

    Except the trolley problem usually starts off with everyone alive. If you think that Tuvok and Neelix are dead, then it's more like necromancy fueled by human sacrifice.
    I think what's extra disturbing is that there was a month between his creation and the eventual development of the technique that would kill him. This wasn't a snap decision, it was four weeks of research on how to undo this person's existence.

    There's been many variations for as long as I'm aware. That distinction is irrelevant to the core idea of the trolley problem. Part of the idea has always been action vs inaction. Whatever you do someone lives and someone dies. But does it feel different if you just do nothing rather then actively chose? The episode presents 2 different options. Either you do nothing and 2 people are dead or you throw the switch and 1 person is dead.

    I don't think it's irrelevant, because the question is now about killing one living person to bring back (for all intents and purposes) two people who are already dead. It was never established that Tuvok and Neelix were somehow still existing as distinct entities within a Tuvix gestalt, but that he was (again, for all intents and purposes) their child. The blending of both into something new and unique and distinct. That's fundamentally different than the core idea of just swapping one stranger for two friends.

    It also should be mentioned that Janeway intentionally ran Voyager as a Starfleet ship. One of Starfleet's mission statements is discovering new life. Tuvix was that new life. And she decides to kill him because he's not her friend. Not only is she a murderer, she's a hypocrite.

    For me, Tuvix is a dumb episode masquerading as a smart one. The choice really isn't difficult, and she made the wrong one.

    Nah. This is just like saying the only choice is to not touch the lever and let the train run over 2 people and then claim that's the only choice.

    Tuvok and Neelix can exist or Tuvik can exist. If you push the button, you get the first outcome. If you don't, you get the second. That's the core dilemma the episode raises.

    The episode I think is actually quite smart. It correctly raises a couple of key points. Like the fact that if they'd been able to push the button right away, no one would have hesitated. "Ooops, transporter accident, let's reverse that right now" and everyone moves on. It also tackles the idea that in face of these kind of questions we do actually honestly think things like "But which of the people do I like better?".

    They wring a shockingly interesting question from a deeply stupid premise.

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  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    I don't see how the trolley question is accurate in the case of Tuvix because Tuvok and Neelix don't exist anymore. I don't see how one can sidestep that. They're, for all intents and purposes, gone. The trolley problem is you have to make a choice between living people.

    Yes, if we're reductive enough, it can be "either these people exist or this person exists", but that's ignoring the act of necromancy going on and also ignores that in the trolley problem, the person has a choice before something bad happens. Tuvix / Neelix / Tuvok is after something bad happens.

    If we're guessing the intentions of the writers, it felt more like a reference to the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In this case, Tuvix was not only outnumbered by Neelix and Tuvok, but Janeway felt Voyager needed those two far more than Tuvix.

    So, Tuvix died.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    I don't see how the trolley question is accurate in the case of Tuvix because Tuvok and Neelix don't exist anymore. I don't see how one can sidestep that. They're, for all intents and purposes, gone. The trolley problem is you have to make a choice between living people.

    Yes, if we're reductive enough, it can be "either these people exist or this person exists", but that's ignoring the act of necromancy going on and also ignores that in the trolley problem, the person has a choice before something bad happens. Tuvix / Neelix / Tuvok is after something bad happens.

    If we're guessing the intentions of the writers, it felt more like a reference to the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In this case, Tuvix was not only outnumbered by Neelix and Tuvok, but Janeway felt Voyager needed those two far more than Tuvix.

    So, Tuvix died.

    Why does the fact that the button brings them back to the life instead of just not letting them die in the first place matter?

    It's still either 2 people are dead, or you push the button and those 2 people are not dead and 1 different person is dead in their place.

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I'm very confused about the two part opener of season three of DS9. What exactly was real or part of the Founders simulator? Did the Odyssey get blown up?

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I'm very confused about the two part opener of season three of DS9. What exactly was real or part of the Founders simulator? Did the Odyssey get blown up?

    Yes that did happen.

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I'm very confused about the two part opener of season three of DS9. What exactly was real or part of the Founders simulator? Did the Odyssey get blown up?
    Everything from the Defiant getting captured and not with Odo/Kira is deepfake

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Now this is what I'm talking about,

    "In order to boost his business and gain respect, Quark lies about killing a Klingon, then winds up forced to marry the dead man's widow."

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  • Smaug6Smaug6 Registered User regular
    CroakerBC wrote: »
    CroakerBC wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    since tuvix came up:

    I do not understand why people hate janeway in this episode. ya sure she sucks, but not because of this. she clearly did what had to be done which was restore 2 god damn living people who only merged cause of a freak accident, neither of which seemed particularly troubled about being revived at the end of the show!

    Because utilitarianism isn’t everything. She started with two people, sure. But then she got one person, a unique, loving feeling breathing individual who did not want to die. And she killed that person to get the other two back.

    That kind of call is what they (don’t) pay her for, but it’s by no means an obvious choice.

    ETA: I seem to remember that Janeway really isn’t on board with Tuvix as a person, either, and essentially starts from a position of abrogating their autonomy at all. But it’s been a while, so I may be mixing that up with the way she treats the Doctor.

    Tuvix didn't want to be "dead" any more than Tuvok and Neelix wanted to be "dead"; they both have every right to life as well, and they have prior claim to exist over Tuvix essentially forcing the two people to remain as himself. Leaving them as Tuvix is basically trapping them both in a life they didn't choose.

    But the big thing that falls apart for me is that Neelix is empathetic enough and Tuvok smart and rational enough that their merged experience would produce somebody who, yes, would wish to live, but would also be unwilling to keep their life at the expense of two others especially when the singular entity knows and feels the lives of being two people before. Tuvix having a breakdown about wishing to live? Yeah, definitely buy that. But I would've bought the situation a whole lot more if Tuvix figured out a way to split himself and did it while the crew tried to figure things out, then the question was left hanging with the crew what they would've done.

    Janeway's handling of the situation was pretty nasty, though.

    I actually like that the episode refuses to give a clean out. Janeway has to make an ethical call, and it’s not easy. She has to kill, with her own hands, someone who has publicly begged for their life, to save two others.

    The Doctor, it’s worth noting, refuses to perform the procedure himself, on ethical grounds.

    The episode makes you think about the issue - we’re still discussing it, what, twenty years later? Personally I’m not sure I would have made the same decision Janeway did, but these decisions, these points of philosophy and thoughtfulness that engage the audience as adults, and ask questions, are what I always hoped would shape Voyager as a series.

    (It’s also a sign of the whipsaw writing for Janeway that she can do something like this - or about half the stuff she does to the Doctor - and still give Ransom the ethical high horse treatment in Equinox)

    See I thought the opposite, I thought it just made her hypocrisy so much worse. Especially as she quickly descended into captain Ahab mode and risked a prisoners life against the space creatures for information.

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  • Smaug6Smaug6 Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    I don't see how the trolley question is accurate in the case of Tuvix because Tuvok and Neelix don't exist anymore. I don't see how one can sidestep that. They're, for all intents and purposes, gone. The trolley problem is you have to make a choice between living people.

    Yes, if we're reductive enough, it can be "either these people exist or this person exists", but that's ignoring the act of necromancy going on and also ignores that in the trolley problem, the person has a choice before something bad happens. Tuvix / Neelix / Tuvok is after something bad happens.

    If we're guessing the intentions of the writers, it felt more like a reference to the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In this case, Tuvix was not only outnumbered by Neelix and Tuvok, but Janeway felt Voyager needed those two far more than Tuvix.

    So, Tuvix died.

    Why does the fact that the button brings them back to the life instead of just not letting them die in the first place matter?

    It's still either 2 people are dead, or you push the button and those 2 people are not dead and 1 different person is dead in their place.

    Imagine going to work everyday for a month working to create that button. Everyday for 8 hours you are laboring away to create a murder machine that will resurrect two friends. Everyday you get to hear from the condemned, who committed no crime aside from existing, that it wants to live. You spend a month of your life doing that. I would not do that.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 6
    Smaug6 wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    I don't see how the trolley question is accurate in the case of Tuvix because Tuvok and Neelix don't exist anymore. I don't see how one can sidestep that. They're, for all intents and purposes, gone. The trolley problem is you have to make a choice between living people.

    Yes, if we're reductive enough, it can be "either these people exist or this person exists", but that's ignoring the act of necromancy going on and also ignores that in the trolley problem, the person has a choice before something bad happens. Tuvix / Neelix / Tuvok is after something bad happens.

    If we're guessing the intentions of the writers, it felt more like a reference to the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In this case, Tuvix was not only outnumbered by Neelix and Tuvok, but Janeway felt Voyager needed those two far more than Tuvix.

    So, Tuvix died.

    Why does the fact that the button brings them back to the life instead of just not letting them die in the first place matter?

    It's still either 2 people are dead, or you push the button and those 2 people are not dead and 1 different person is dead in their place.

    Imagine going to work everyday for a month working to create that button. Everyday for 8 hours you are laboring away to create a murder machine that will resurrect two friends. Everyday you get to hear from the condemned, who committed no crime aside from existing, that it wants to live. You spend a month of your life doing that. I would not do that.

    I'm not sure how this makes it not just another very obvious variation of the trolley problem. All your explanation here is doing is saying that (for unstated reasons) you would chose the "don't push the button" option when it came to this variation.

    And the episode itself basically tackles what you are talking about. It asks "Would you trade the life of one person for the life of 2 people you know better?".

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Also, no one created "that button", they created a transporter. Something we've seen in the past has created clones (Second Chances), been able to store a human for extended periods of time (Relics, Our Man Bashir) outright murdered people (Star Trek: The Motion Picture), turned adults into children (Rascals). Like the Holodeck, Transporters in the real world would be an extremely ethically dubious product that feels like it would be banned from any society outside of hardened criminals. But neither this episode nor any other actually asks us to question the ethics of the device itself, only the ethics of the choice.

    While it doesn't seem that any rich were eaten. It definitely feels like a soup course with broth made from rich stock - bouillonaire if you will - was had.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, no one created "that button", they created a transporter. Something we've seen in the past has created clones (Second Chances), been able to store a human for extended periods of time (Relics, Our Man Bashir) outright murdered people (Star Trek: The Motion Picture), turned adults into children (Rascals). Like the Holodeck, Transporters in the real world would be an extremely ethically dubious product that feels like it would be banned from any society outside of hardened criminals. But neither this episode nor any other actually asks us to question the ethics of the device itself, only the ethics of the choice.

    That's not what 'murdered' means. And they did spend a month looking for a way to reverse the process, 'that button' is more metaphorical than literal in this case.

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Okay, Quark confronting the Klingon High Council with his spreadsheets and Gowron trying to follow along was great.

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  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    It's one of the best DS9s imo

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  • GaryOGaryO Registered User regular
    Quark also delivers the best insult ever said to a Klingon imo

    'I am Quark, son of Keldar, and I have come to answer the challenge of D'Ghor, son of… whatever'

    Just the dismissiveness in the way he trails off with 'whatever' is absolutely brutal. I love it.

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  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited May 6
    shryke wrote: »
    Why does the fact that the button brings them back to the life instead of just not letting them die in the first place matter?

    It's still either 2 people are dead, or you push the button and those 2 people are not dead and 1 different person is dead in their place.

    It's minor, yeah, but it's really about culpability. The trolley is going to kill someone, you're choosing who dies.

    With Tuvix, that decision has already been made. Tuvok and Neelix are dead. Janeway is deciding that that decision is unacceptable, for a variety of reasons, and changing the results after the fact. In this scenario, she is actively stepping in after an event and causing a death....if we're going to compare it to the trolley, it's grabbing Tuvix, tying him to the tracks, and causing his death in the hopes it brings back the dead. In the original trolley scenario, you're not doing that, you're trying to mitigate / choose the best possible outcome for an event that's about to happen (you can't untie anyone from the tracks, etc).

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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Why does the fact that the button brings them back to the life instead of just not letting them die in the first place matter?

    It's still either 2 people are dead, or you push the button and those 2 people are not dead and 1 different person is dead in their place.

    It's minor, yeah, but it's really about culpability. The trolley is going to kill someone, you're choosing who dies.

    With Tuvix, that decision has already been made. Tuvok and Neelix are dead. Janeway is deciding that that decision is unacceptable, for a variety of reasons, and changing the results after the fact. In this scenario, she is actively stepping in after an event and causing a death....if we're going to compare it to the trolley, it's grabbing Tuvix, tying him to the tracks, and causing his death in the hopes it brings back the dead. In the original trolley scenario, you're not doing that, you're trying to mitigate / choose the best possible outcome for an event that's about to happen (you can't untie anyone from the tracks, etc).

    I feel like your whole stance is skipping over a LOT of major nuance to find a pretty absolute stance. First and foremost, death, as we know it today, is essentially irreversible. You can discuss it in terms of necromancy if you like, but this is essentially outside of our experience to have proper terms for it. I mean, if Tuvok/Neelix were so easily restorable (for some definitions of easily), were they dead, or simply in a specialized form of suspended animation? Especially if it's the latter, then wouldn't Tuvok and Neelix have some claim on the matter/etc of their corporeal bodies (which also brings up the question of is that matter "theirs" after going through the transporter, or they even really them after a successful transport even?). Ignoring the moral side for a minute, what about the legal. Does Tuvix inherit all of both Tuvok and Neelix possessions?

    Point is, while you are entitled to your opinion, I rightly think the show was correct in NOT deciding it, and I do almost think it would take someone being as ruthless as Janeway to make that decision. To this day I STILL haven't decided which one is right.

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