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[Star Trek] Keep On Trekkin' (Lower Decks stuff in SPOILERS)

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    Hell, I didn't even cover the half of it, either. I think the 2020's was the earthquake that sank Los Angeles into the ocean, and there's whatever happened in France so that by the 2100's everyone there had English accents. And during WWIII everyone's armies were raging drug addicts with cocaine dispensing tubes in the collars of their body armor. Global hyperinflation eliminated all standing wealth in the run up to the war, and what survived was destroyed when the nukes fell.


    Like, real world 2020 is shit but Star Trek 2020 is just so much worse and just keeps getting worse until the Vulcans show up and tried to figure out how the fuck we scraped a warp drive together out of all that.

  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited May 9
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    There's an insane two part DS9 time travel episode where Sisko and Bashir end up in a period of time that's going to lead to massive social improvements in the USA because of a riot that kills a few hundred people.

    Of course they end up fucking up that riot and have to make it happen again.

    First, the idea that a few hundred dead rioters would lead to any massive change in US social policy is quaint.

    Second, Bashir walking around just slamming how shitty the US is at this time is pretty funny.

    I don't know man, BLM riots haven't killed anybody and they the impetus for huge social movements.

    25 people were killed last I checked

    DanHibiki on
  • Smaug6Smaug6 Registered User regular
    One last thought on Tuvix. The dead only know one thing, it is better to be alive.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    So with that new Pike show coming, I've been thinking of giving nuTrek another chance. Picard was too cynical, Lower Decks kinda turned me off but I think I'm coming around on it after someone described it as a "Comedy show ABOUT Star Trek" instead of a comedy show set in the Star Trek universe, and while I loved the cast of Discovery, I felt the season arcs just resulted in disappointment every single time and I stopped after the Season 2 finale.

    How did Season 3 of Discovery turn out? More of the same?

  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    Season 3 started better, but it's more that it started slower, spending a few episodes putting the team back together and then a couple more teaching them new technobabble.

  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    So with that new Pike show coming, I've been thinking of giving nuTrek another chance. Picard was too cynical, Lower Decks kinda turned me off but I think I'm coming around on it after someone described it as a "Comedy show ABOUT Star Trek" instead of a comedy show set in the Star Trek universe, and while I loved the cast of Discovery, I felt the season arcs just resulted in disappointment every single time and I stopped after the Season 2 finale.

    How did Season 3 of Discovery turn out? More of the same?

    terrible with a side of Pike isn't in it so they don't even have the 1 good thing in the show anymore!

    (I'm looking forward to the Pike show though because i'm a glutton for punishment)

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    Season 3 started better, but it's more that it started slower, spending a few episodes putting the team back together and then a couple more teaching them new technobabble.

    Does it stick the landing this time?

  • exisexis Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    Season 3 started better, but it's more that it started slower, spending a few episodes putting the team back together and then a couple more teaching them new technobabble.

    Does it stick the landing this time?

    I didn't find it as bad as most, but it has the same old problem of feeling the need to make the stakes way too high. Based on the S4 trailer it seems like this might just be par for the course for Disco. Was more enjoyable during the slower episodes but it runs out of breath at the end.

    Commander ZoomMonwyn
  • BlarghyBlarghy Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    But again, both these things are core components of the trolley problem. The balance of "more lives saved vs less lives saved" against "action vs inaction". There's always been a ton of discussion when it comes to the trolley problem over whether you are morally culpable for your inaction.

    This is exactly like Tuvok and Neelix on one track and Tuvik on the other, with the train heading for Tuvok and Neelix. Do you push the button and actively save 2 people by letting 1 die? Or do you do nothing, let 2 people die rather then only 1 and feel not morally culpable for those deaths because you didn't act to make their deaths happened, you just let their deaths occur via inaction?

    I think more then anything the episode exposes the number of people who really want to believe there's only 1 right answer to the trolley problem.
    I don't think it does except when one is reductionist to the extreme. It also doesn't indicate that people believe there's only one right answer to the trolley problem because, in Tuvix, people are already dead.

    Again, you reference the trolley, but the person didn't tie them to the tracks. They came after the fact and were left to the decision on whether to redirect the trolley to save two or not. With the trolley, redirecting or doing nothing results in death, but is still the result of a choice by the person....but they presumably didn't create the original problem.

    In Tuvix, the deaths have already happened, completely separate from Janeway, and Janeway is unrelated to Tuvok and Neelix going poof. Janeway comes in after the fact, backs the trolley up, figuratively then ties Tuvix to the train track, and kills in the hopes it brings two people back to life.

    In the trolley scenario, the person (presumably hah) didn't tie any of the people to the track. They came upon a bad situation and they're left with a choice. In the Tuvix scenario, it's a bit more....malicious.


    ***

    The messy part of this whole debate, though, is it's a sci-fi, so like Hydropolo said, we have the magic devices that can do anything except save Tuvix. "Oh they're not really dead" etc., stuff like that.

    First, that's BS, we all know transporters murder you and clone you every time they transport you (and I know what the inventor said and that it didn't work that way, BUT OF COURSE he'd say that for legal reasons, and look at the transporter buffer / how it works!)….but secondarily, it also prevents any real debate in the end because it's a magic machine that works how the authors want it to.

    Of course it can reform Tuvok and Neelix, but not save Tuvix. That's what the authors wanted. It's magic.

    **
    Finally, Voyager was just inconsistent as hell. Here's Janeway talking about how she can't kill someone to get back the lungs stolen from Neelix, despite the fact that Neelix was going to die.

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Phage_(episode)
    Act Five

    Once found, the aliens, who call themselves Vidiians, surrender. They explain that their civilization has been plagued for centuries by a terrible disease, the phage, and that as a result they often use body parts of other species to replenish and/or replace their own degraded ones. They prefer to use cadavers, but if pressed, will steal from the living if they can't find a body in time, a situation that they are not proud of. Dereth, one of the Vidiians in custody states that he has already transformed Neelix' lungs for transplantation into Motura and thus is unable to retransplant Neelix' lungs back without killing him. Janeway is outraged at what the Vidiians have done, but she is not willing to kill Motura to save her crewmember. Unable to turn the two over for trial, and unwilling to carry them both in the brig for the forseeable future Janeway is left with no choice but to let them both go free. However, she gives both of them a message to take back to their society and makes it clear, in no uncertain terms, that even the slightest transgression against Voyager and its crew will be met with the deadliest force.

    Naturally, they find a solution, but the point is Voyager is a badly written show from a consistency perspective :).
    Hevach wrote: »
    Season 3 started better, but it's more that it started slower, spending a few episodes putting the team back together and then a couple more teaching them new technobabble.

    Does it stick the landing this time?

    It wasn't a massive messy CGI battle for the galaxy, and was a more classic Star Trekky resolution than previously, though I found the underlying premise incredibly forced and barely believable. It was ok, though. If they can just wean themselves off needing to have A BIG UNIVERSE ENDING plot ever season, there are signs it could be a Voyager level show.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Blarghy wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Season 3 started better, but it's more that it started slower, spending a few episodes putting the team back together and then a couple more teaching them new technobabble.

    Does it stick the landing this time?

    It wasn't a massive messy CGI battle for the galaxy, and was a more classic Star Trekky resolution than previously, though I found the underlying premise incredibly forced and barely believable. It was ok, though. If they can just wean themselves off needing to have A BIG UNIVERSE ENDING plot ever season, there are signs it could be a Voyager level show.

    Faint praise indeed.
    Also: They won't. If anything, they probably see that as a feature.

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  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    I have to say I enjoyed the Sisko and Gul Dukat trapped on the planet "mask off" episode quite a bit. Though, as I understand it Dukat goes downhill as a character from here?

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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    I have to say I enjoyed the Sisko and Gul Dukat trapped on the planet "mask off" episode quite a bit. Though, as I understand it Dukat goes downhill as a character from here?
    Yeah from then on he's just drunk dialing random people and bragging about doing their mom.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    The writers went "oh crap, we made the Nazi too relatable; quick, turn him into a cartoon!"

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Waltz was a fine culmination of Dukat's character, which was a mistake if you intended to use him after that episode.

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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    I have to say I enjoyed the Sisko and Gul Dukat trapped on the planet "mask off" episode quite a bit. Though, as I understand it Dukat goes downhill as a character from here?
    Yeah from then on he's just drunk dialing random people and bragging about doing their mom.

    This isn't really a comical exaggeration either

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    I have to say I enjoyed the Sisko and Gul Dukat trapped on the planet "mask off" episode quite a bit. Though, as I understand it Dukat goes downhill as a character from here?
    Yeah from then on he's just drunk dialing random people and bragging about doing their mom.

    This isn't really a comical exaggeration either

    Somehow a solid episode though.

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited May 10
    Waltz was a fine culmination of Dukat's character, which was a mistake if you intended to use him after that episode.

    The show had done, I think, a decent job setting up Wynn to worship the space devil, the whole pah wraith arc could have been done without making Sisko's spiritual rival take a back seat to his military one. They established years back that she spent days at a time in front of the orbs and never had any kind of experience, and the way that this was revealed made clear she despised that outsiders like Sisko and Dax had experiences without even understanding what they were.

    She wanted divine contact more than anything, and some tweaks to the cult episode could let her see that the pah wraiths weren't so picky about who they talk to and put her on the path to unleash Kosst Amojan on her own.

    A non trivial reason why the finale kind of petered out halfway through was because they didn't let Dukat die in that cave broken, alone, and screaming at the voices in his head.

    Hevach on
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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    I have to say I enjoyed the Sisko and Gul Dukat trapped on the planet "mask off" episode quite a bit. Though, as I understand it Dukat goes downhill as a character from here?
    Yeah from then on he's just drunk dialing random people and bragging about doing their mom.

    This isn't really a comical exaggeration either

    Somehow a solid episode though.

    I'm pretty disappointed it was never referenced in later episodes though. Kira finding out what her mother did during the Occupation should have been a world-shattering revelation for her, not something that should have been contained in one episode.

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  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    Who Mourns for Morn was a fun episode (if a little dragged out for lack of a B-plot), though I didn't believe for a second they would leave him dead by the end of it.

    Snicketysnick
  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    Who Mourns for Morn was a fun episode (if a little dragged out for lack of a B-plot), though I didn't believe for a second they would leave him dead by the end of it.

    Yeah you don't just throw away someone with that many cool lines

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited May 11
    Winky wrote: »
    Who Mourns for Morn was a fun episode (if a little dragged out for lack of a B-plot), though I didn't believe for a second they would leave him dead by the end of it.

    At the start of the episode it was perfectly plausible, IMO. Minor character, had exactly zero lines, just a dude in a rubber face, everything we knew about him was 100% tell not show. Exactly the kind of character they would kill off for cheap drama without actually upsetting the status quo.

    About the time the Nigerian Prince showed up in person and things had gone off the rails in true Zany Ferengi Hijinks fashion, now...

    Hevach on
  • MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Who Mourns for Morn was a fun episode (if a little dragged out for lack of a B-plot), though I didn't believe for a second they would leave him dead by the end of it.

    At the start of the episode it was perfectly plausible, IMO. Minor character, had exactly zero lines, just a dude in a rubber face, everything we knew about him was 100% tell not show. Exactly the kind of character they would kill off for cheap drama without actually upsetting the status quo.

    About the time the Nigerian Prince showed up in person and things had gone off the rails in true Zany Ferengi Hijinks fashion, now...

    The best part of this ep is Quark losing his shit because all he has is worthless gold

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  • KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    I may watch Picard tonight.

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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Who Mourns for Morn was a fun episode (if a little dragged out for lack of a B-plot), though I didn't believe for a second they would leave him dead by the end of it.

    At the start of the episode it was perfectly plausible, IMO. Minor character, had exactly zero lines, just a dude in a rubber face, everything we knew about him was 100% tell not show. Exactly the kind of character they would kill off for cheap drama without actually upsetting the status quo.

    About the time the Nigerian Prince showed up in person and things had gone off the rails in true Zany Ferengi Hijinks fashion, now...

    The best part of this ep is Quark losing his shit because all he has is worthless gold

    I thought Morn's speech in the end was really touching. That guy's got a real way with words.

    WinkyStrikorCambiataWeaverShadowenRichy
  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    Just saw Far Beyond the Stars, it was incredibly on the nose but I think that just made it better. It's episodes like these that make you feel like Star Trek is as relevant as ever, and it's basically the thesis of the entire franchise.

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    Just saw Far Beyond the Stars, it was incredibly on the nose but I think that just made it better. It's episodes like these that make you feel like Star Trek is as relevant as ever, and it's basically the thesis of the entire franchise.

    It's a worthy successor to Let That Be Your Last Battlefield in that subtlety is for cowards way.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    oh, but YouTube says that Trek has only recently been political and "woke". :rotate:

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    oh, but YouTube says that Trek has only recently been political and "woke". :rotate:

    I have no idea how people reach this conclusion but then, I've seen alt-righters non-ironically engage in "Dukat was right" arguments. The human capacity for cognitive dissonance really has no limit.

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    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
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  • KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    It's those young people out there.

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    lk528evbu2z9.jpg

    While it doesn't seem that any rich were eaten. It definitely feels like a soup course with broth made from rich stock - bouillonaire if you will - was had.

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  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    edited May 12
    My journey to watch all of TNG is still going strong. I think I'm near the end of Season 6. Last night's episode is when we find out there's a second Riker. Holy shit what a great story!

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  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    My journey to watch all of TNG is still going strong. I think I'm near the end of Season 6. Last night's episode is when we find out there's a second Riker. Holy shit what a great story!

    Second Riker does come back much later in the franchise, but I think he's overall criminally underused.

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    lk528evbu2z9.jpg

    I just remembered something Cirroc Lofton said on What We Left Behind, that when Avery Brooks introduces him to people he calls him "my son", or if Cabral Brooks is there it's "these are my sons." That story also made me cry.

    While it doesn't seem that any rich were eaten. It definitely feels like a soup course with broth made from rich stock - bouillonaire if you will - was had.

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    My journey to watch all of TNG is still going strong. I think I'm near the end of Season 6. Last night's episode is when we find out there's a second Riker. Holy shit what a great story!

    Second Riker does come back much later in the franchise, but I think he's overall criminally underused.

    Probably the same reason Nick Locarno's name magically changed. Why pay the writer who created the character when you have a perfectly good Eddington on regular cast already?

  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    lk528evbu2z9.jpg

    Honest to god question, was there a decent example of a healthy/functional single father and child relationship on TV by that point that wasn't a comedy? Much less a black family? I've only grown to appreciate this relationship more as I've gotten older and have kids myself now.

  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    Fresh Prince as an Uncle/surrogate Father role maybe?

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Pailryder wrote: »
    Fresh Prince as an Uncle/surrogate Father role maybe?

    I thought of that too (and damn, the bit at the end of the EP with Ben Vereen as Will's absentee dad still resonates), but 1, comedy (mostly), and 2, not single (surrogate) father.

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  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    Is there a reason to exclude comedies? Sitcoms were the staple "family life" genre for a long stretch of time. I don't watch that kind of TV as an adult so I can't comment now, but there were absolutely a lot of widely celebrated black family sitcoms with, I imagine, good relationships and morals throughout.

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  • DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    Johnny Quest? :bzz:

  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Is there a reason to exclude comedies? Sitcoms were the staple "family life" genre for a long stretch of time. I don't watch that kind of TV as an adult so I can't comment now, but there were absolutely a lot of widely celebrated black family sitcoms with, I imagine, good relationships and morals throughout.
    Sit coms often play off sexist notions of "lol dad is a bumbling fool and not a great caretaker" along with using dysfunctional behaviors for laughs because injecting conflict allows you to produce scenarios for the plot. While there are examples of single father raising a son through the years (Andy Griffith Show probably is the best example), the only show that had a single POC father and son relationship modeled that I can think of (prior to DS9, of course) is "Sanford and Son", and both individuals were grown men in that show.

    There are other examples of single dads with extended support networks ("My Two Dads", "Full House", etc.), certainly, but I think the Siskos are pretty special, if not unique. There are several recent shows that had a single POC father in recent years, but I don't think any of them had much traction (I'd love to hear about them, though, if I'm wrong).

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