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[Star Trek] Keep On Trekkin' (Lower Decks stuff in SPOILERS)

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  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    What we need is a Star Trek: West Wing where one of the supporting characters has to deal with all the political shitstorms caused by PD violations and time travel hijinks.

    DisruptedCapitalistThat_GuyGiantGeek2020hlprmnkyMatevNightslyrHarry DresdenZilla360
  • HellboreHellbore A bad, bad man Registered User regular
    A show featuring the Federation's Temporal Liaison, where it's linear for the main character, but the temporal events they have to deal with are all out of order.

    ShadowhopeDoodmannNightslyr
  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    I want a show set in the TOS era that covers their use of time travel to observe and document historical events. There's no way The Enterprise was the only ship they sent back. In my head canon The Federation sent an entire fleet of ships to document the majority of noteworthy events in earth history.

    The show could be one of those "new place and time every week" sort of shows in the vain of Quantum Leap.

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    I want a show set in the TOS era that covers their use of time travel to observe and document historical events. There's no way The Enterprise was the only ship they sent back. In my head canon The Federation sent an entire fleet of ships to document the majority of noteworthy events in earth history.

    The show could be one of those "new place and time every week" sort of shows in the vain of Quantum Leap.

    Maybe that explains the Jack The Ripper issue that someone mentioned a couple pages back? That the computer identified Jack.

    As long as they're not changing the course of history, finding out who he was would be one of the first mysteries I would think to definitively prove.

    Well, after debunking (or proving) a whole bunch of conspiracy theories.

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Also you'd think they would have locked the software down after the first half dozen hacks.

    Unless they want to keep that possibility open so they can pat people on the heads for thinking outside of the box.

    Yeah, I don't have an issue with people up and changing the scenario to make it winnable. Starfleet may want to see how a person handles failing the test, but that's a one-size-fits-all test that won't necessarily be an adequate test of everyone.

    In the case of somebody like Kirk, they hit somebody whose response to an impossible situation was to change it to a possible situation. So now Starfleet knows they have somebody who might actually be able to beat an actual no-win scenario if it happens rather than just satisfying their curiosity over how they would choose to die in a no-win scenario.

    Because ultimately, the test doesn't function as advertised. It's just a simulation and cadets know that, so it tells Starfleet actually nothing about how an officer would handle a similar situation. Kirk is right in calling the test a cheat unto itself.

  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Also you'd think they would have locked the software down after the first half dozen hacks.

    Unless they want to keep that possibility open so they can pat people on the heads for thinking outside of the box.

    Yeah, I don't have an issue with people up and changing the scenario to make it winnable. Starfleet may want to see how a person handles failing the test, but that's a one-size-fits-all test that won't necessarily be an adequate test of everyone.

    In the case of somebody like Kirk, they hit somebody whose response to an impossible situation was to change it to a possible situation. So now Starfleet knows they have somebody who might actually be able to beat an actual no-win scenario if it happens rather than just satisfying their curiosity over how they would choose to die in a no-win scenario.

    Because ultimately, the test doesn't function as advertised. It's just a simulation and cadets know that, so it tells Starfleet actually nothing about how an officer would handle a similar situation. Kirk is right in calling the test a cheat unto itself.

    That's the reason for the Wesley version in TNG, isn't it? They did this in the equivalent version of SG1 too with the cadets on that show.

    Cadets know it's a test, don't take it seriously, pass "the test", are put in a bad situation immediately after, and it turns out that was the "real test".

    Because sitting in a simulator, "treat this as if it were real life", no cadet is going to run for the escape pods/teleporters/freak-out/freeze, which might happen under real threat. So the initial test is only ever intended to show how a cadet would react in a simulation of a no-win situation, and the value of that is zero.

    Commander ZoomBloodySlothNightslyr
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I mean the real way to test someone like that for real would be to transport them into a holosuite while they were asleep and allow the holographic test to happen without telling them what's real.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • hlprmnkyhlprmnky Registered User regular
    Maybe not exactly zero, once the body of telemetry on actual no-win situations gets big enough to correlate. If I know that everyone who did X in the tank for the KM test went on to go down gibbering and gnawing the armrest of the Big Chair when faced with their actual inescapable doom, whether or not a new cadet also does X in the tank is correlative information that might lead to, say, a particular bank of questions at that cadet’s post-exam debrief with a counselor.

    _
    iOS: hlprmnky | PSN: hlprmnky_2 | SC2: Callow.126
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Also you'd think they would have locked the software down after the first half dozen hacks.

    Unless they want to keep that possibility open so they can pat people on the heads for thinking outside of the box.

    Yeah, I don't have an issue with people up and changing the scenario to make it winnable. Starfleet may want to see how a person handles failing the test, but that's a one-size-fits-all test that won't necessarily be an adequate test of everyone.

    In the case of somebody like Kirk, they hit somebody whose response to an impossible situation was to change it to a possible situation. So now Starfleet knows they have somebody who might actually be able to beat an actual no-win scenario if it happens rather than just satisfying their curiosity over how they would choose to die in a no-win scenario.

    Because ultimately, the test doesn't function as advertised. It's just a simulation and cadets know that, so it tells Starfleet actually nothing about how an officer would handle a similar situation. Kirk is right in calling the test a cheat unto itself.

    It's not intended to be a problem to solve. It's intended to be a lesson. Not all of the latter are constructed as the former.

    Knowing that you have someone who thinks out-of-the-box and always tries to find a solution is already something you can determine with just a very challenging problem, as opposed to one that is explicitly designed to force you to choose and will never have a "perfect" outcome. This is the ST equivalent of the trolley problem. If you have someone in the captain's chair who always thinks they can find a way out to a happy ending, then this lesson is even more important for them to learn - life isn't a video game.

    Oftentimes you must proceed with less information or fewer options than you would like, and there is not always a Full Paragon ending that leaves with everyone alive and happy. If you choose to "not choose" and keep trying to find other solutions, then everyone will die. That's the lesson. Sometimes you have to be willing to make a sub-optimal decision in the given time constraints, as not making a decision results in even more catastrophic consequences.
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I mean the real way to test someone like that for real would be to transport them into a holosuite while they were asleep and allow the holographic test to happen without telling them what's real.

    This is probably the biggest flaw with the Kobayashi Maru. Once one cadet takes that test, every single cadet in the future will know about the existence of that test, and be able to prepare themselves accordingly. This robs the test of its value, because cadets will be able to just brush off this one "failure" as "programmed inevitability" and will fail to learn the lesson being taught.

    The only way I can think of that might mitigate this a little are tricks like teleporting them in their sleep, or weaving the KM scenario within a larger lesson plan so that they think it's a normal scenario/test when it's in fact the KM. Even then, it's not a foolproof way to address that issue.

    I'm not even fully convinced that the KM is the best way to be teaching that lesson. But I'm not sure I can think of a better one other than real experience.

    Commander Zoom
  • CroakerBCCroakerBC TorontoRegistered User regular
    Also you'd think they would have locked the software down after the first half dozen hacks.

    Unless they want to keep that possibility open so they can pat people on the heads for thinking outside of the box.

    Yeah, I don't have an issue with people up and changing the scenario to make it winnable. Starfleet may want to see how a person handles failing the test, but that's a one-size-fits-all test that won't necessarily be an adequate test of everyone.

    In the case of somebody like Kirk, they hit somebody whose response to an impossible situation was to change it to a possible situation. So now Starfleet knows they have somebody who might actually be able to beat an actual no-win scenario if it happens rather than just satisfying their curiosity over how they would choose to die in a no-win scenario.

    Because ultimately, the test doesn't function as advertised. It's just a simulation and cadets know that, so it tells Starfleet actually nothing about how an officer would handle a similar situation. Kirk is right in calling the test a cheat unto itself.

    It's not intended to be a problem to solve. It's intended to be a lesson. Not all of the latter are constructed as the former.

    Knowing that you have someone who thinks out-of-the-box and always tries to find a solution is already something you can determine with just a very challenging problem, as opposed to one that is explicitly designed to force you to choose and will never have a "perfect" outcome. This is the ST equivalent of the trolley problem. If you have someone in the captain's chair who always thinks they can find a way out to a happy ending, then this lesson is even more important for them to learn - life isn't a video game.

    Oftentimes you must proceed with less information or fewer options than you would like, and there is not always a Full Paragon ending that leaves with everyone alive and happy. If you choose to "not choose" and keep trying to find other solutions, then everyone will die. That's the lesson. Sometimes you have to be willing to make a sub-optimal decision in the given time constraints, as not making a decision results in even more catastrophic consequences.
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I mean the real way to test someone like that for real would be to transport them into a holosuite while they were asleep and allow the holographic test to happen without telling them what's real.

    This is probably the biggest flaw with the Kobayashi Maru. Once one cadet takes that test, every single cadet in the future will know about the existence of that test, and be able to prepare themselves accordingly. This robs the test of its value, because cadets will be able to just brush off this one "failure" as "programmed inevitability" and will fail to learn the lesson being taught.

    The only way I can think of that might mitigate this a little are tricks like teleporting them in their sleep, or weaving the KM scenario within a larger lesson plan so that they think it's a normal scenario/test when it's in fact the KM. Even then, it's not a foolproof way to address that issue.

    I'm not even fully convinced that the KM is the best way to be teaching that lesson. But I'm not sure I can think of a better one other than real experience.

    I think we may be underestimating the immersiveness of the holodeck experience, viewing it as we do from a 2d screen. It's easy to say that cadets will act as if the KM is a simulation, but I assume tha tonce the bridge is on fire, and you can smell the ozone, and the blood of the helmsman is all over your face, and you can feel the atmo getting thinner and thinner as the structural integrity field arond that big hole on what used to be your bridge slowly fails...then the monkey brain takes over and you stop thinking about what's real and what isn't, and start making choices.

  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    CroakerBC wrote: »
    Also you'd think they would have locked the software down after the first half dozen hacks.

    Unless they want to keep that possibility open so they can pat people on the heads for thinking outside of the box.

    Yeah, I don't have an issue with people up and changing the scenario to make it winnable. Starfleet may want to see how a person handles failing the test, but that's a one-size-fits-all test that won't necessarily be an adequate test of everyone.

    In the case of somebody like Kirk, they hit somebody whose response to an impossible situation was to change it to a possible situation. So now Starfleet knows they have somebody who might actually be able to beat an actual no-win scenario if it happens rather than just satisfying their curiosity over how they would choose to die in a no-win scenario.

    Because ultimately, the test doesn't function as advertised. It's just a simulation and cadets know that, so it tells Starfleet actually nothing about how an officer would handle a similar situation. Kirk is right in calling the test a cheat unto itself.

    It's not intended to be a problem to solve. It's intended to be a lesson. Not all of the latter are constructed as the former.

    Knowing that you have someone who thinks out-of-the-box and always tries to find a solution is already something you can determine with just a very challenging problem, as opposed to one that is explicitly designed to force you to choose and will never have a "perfect" outcome. This is the ST equivalent of the trolley problem. If you have someone in the captain's chair who always thinks they can find a way out to a happy ending, then this lesson is even more important for them to learn - life isn't a video game.

    Oftentimes you must proceed with less information or fewer options than you would like, and there is not always a Full Paragon ending that leaves with everyone alive and happy. If you choose to "not choose" and keep trying to find other solutions, then everyone will die. That's the lesson. Sometimes you have to be willing to make a sub-optimal decision in the given time constraints, as not making a decision results in even more catastrophic consequences.
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I mean the real way to test someone like that for real would be to transport them into a holosuite while they were asleep and allow the holographic test to happen without telling them what's real.

    This is probably the biggest flaw with the Kobayashi Maru. Once one cadet takes that test, every single cadet in the future will know about the existence of that test, and be able to prepare themselves accordingly. This robs the test of its value, because cadets will be able to just brush off this one "failure" as "programmed inevitability" and will fail to learn the lesson being taught.

    The only way I can think of that might mitigate this a little are tricks like teleporting them in their sleep, or weaving the KM scenario within a larger lesson plan so that they think it's a normal scenario/test when it's in fact the KM. Even then, it's not a foolproof way to address that issue.

    I'm not even fully convinced that the KM is the best way to be teaching that lesson. But I'm not sure I can think of a better one other than real experience.

    I think we may be underestimating the immersiveness of the holodeck experience, viewing it as we do from a 2d screen. It's easy to say that cadets will act as if the KM is a simulation, but I assume tha tonce the bridge is on fire, and you can smell the ozone, and the blood of the helmsman is all over your face, and you can feel the atmo getting thinner and thinner as the structural integrity field arond that big hole on what used to be your bridge slowly fails...then the monkey brain takes over and you stop thinking about what's real and what isn't, and start making choices.

    I think the problem is that the cadet still knows they're a cadet. You can't just beam them into a holodeck and have them wake up thinking they're in command of a starship.
    You could have them assigned to a ship, then write a holodeck KM program where every ranking officer on the ship is incapacitated, leaving Cadet Sue in command, but at that point the simulation is already lost.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    I get the impression that while the Kobayashi Maru started as a real test, by the time we get to Kirk's day it's more a right of passage.

    Even a "surprise" test would only be so effective given the Academy has a set curriculum. If every cadet knows "third-years get transported onto a holodeck for a test," then that will effect their mindset. When a crisis happens, they're first thought won't be "oh, God, oh, God," it'll be "okay, time to ace this thing."

    You can't train away panic. What you do is drill so hard and so often that the proper responses become instinct. The fact that you can never 100% know how someone will respond to crisis until it happens...well, that's part of the risk of putting someone in a uniform.

    Oh, something that occurred to me that the episode "Valiant:" it shows that, had Jake decided on Starfleet, he probably would've been pretty good at the job.

    Dark_SideNightslyr
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    The original, ST 2 era KM test used no holodeck(s) - it was on a standing bridge set, that was rigged with actual pyrotechnics etc (in-universe as well as out).

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    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    the other StarFleet tests in TNG kind of makes it seem like they're seeking out sociopaths more than testing the resolve of the candidates.

  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    the other StarFleet tests in TNG kind of makes it seem like they're seeking out sociopaths more than testing the resolve of the candidates.
    I'm not going to just sit here and let you imply the writers of Star Trek may not have fully thought through their ideas

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    Commander ZoomhlprmnkyMancingtomshrykeDonnictonGiantGeek2020NightslyrMechMantisAbsoluteZeroMatevLanlaornZilla360Jandaru
  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    imagine the first year that they transport a group of cadets into a holodeck and don't tell them and they spend the whole year in a holodeck and think they are out on a real ship or something and its all just a big test.

  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    Pailryder wrote: »
    imagine the first year that they transport a group of cadets into a holodeck and don't tell them and they spend the whole year in a holodeck and think they are out on a real ship or something and its all just a big test.

    every Star Fleet officer starts and ends the day with the same mantra "Computer, end program"

    StrikorGiantGeek2020NightslyrMatevJacobkoshZilla360
  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    Pailryder wrote: »
    imagine the first year that they transport a group of cadets into a holodeck and don't tell them and they spend the whole year in a holodeck and think they are out on a real ship or something and its all just a big test.
    And then as a control group they just keep some of them on the holodeck their entire careers

    B L A C K M I R R O R

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    NaphtaliZilla360
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Pailryder wrote: »
    imagine the first year that they transport a group of cadets into a holodeck and don't tell them and they spend the whole year in a holodeck and think they are out on a real ship or something and its all just a big test.

    every Star Fleet officer starts and ends the day with the same mantra "Computer, end program"

    pretty sure i'd occasionally do this unbidden if i were in starfleet anyway

    MegaMan001Zilla360
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited June 23
    I would reprogram the computer so if anyone used holodeck commands when not on the holodeck, it would respond, "Holodeck commands are not available at your current level."

    Worse: it would not do this for anyone new on the ship, but would start randomly after they try 2 to 5 times.

    Extra worse: if somebody demonstrated this to another crew member, and the second person tried to show that it happened to them, too, the computer will not respond to the second person because holograms can't use holodeck commands. It's the little details that ensure the eventual chaos.

    Hevach on
    CaedwyrPailryderhlprmnkyMatevZilla360Jandaru
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    Lower Decks needs to include that as a backstory to a new character, "The only person drummed out of Starfleet entirely because of pranks. That was their masterpiece. Put a fleet admiral into the psych ward. The admiral admitted it was pretty funny after they signed the discharge order."

    HevachNightslyrAbsoluteZeroMatevboogedybooZilla360
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Pailryder wrote: »
    imagine the first year that they transport a group of cadets into a holodeck and don't tell them and they spend the whole year in a holodeck and think they are out on a real ship or something and its all just a big test.

    What about 7 years? And don't just use cadets. Experienced crew members too. Just need to check in occasionally to throw an extra spanner in the works, and make sure everything else is ticking along.
    I mean, what is TNG, from Farpoint to All Good Things..., but a 7 year simulation to see how the crew reacts under stress?

    Doodmann
  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    You know what, all this got me thinking.... If Enterprise was all just a TNG holoprogram, and we know how after a century or two little details get lost... maybe it explains some of just the BULLSHIT from Enterprise. Like the Temporal Cold War. Someone had been filling the holes a little... creatively. It would also explain the theme music. Someone thought Rod Stewart/power ballads were the height of popular music of the Enterprise era, so scored his holo programs to it to give it that "in time period" feel.

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited June 24
    If it was Rikers program that at least explains the ridiculous semi naked Vulcan lady scenes

    nexuscrawler on
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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    I still love how ridiculous the Riker holoprogram thing was. Did this dude really go through nearly 100 episodes of records just to "clear his mind" before a big decision?

    That's a lot of time to dedicate to sitting in the holodeck...

  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited June 24
    If the whole series was Riker's holodeck program, he had another 400ish episodes we didn't see, because the timeline jumped from February of 2155 to October of 2061, which would have been the start of season 11.

    But he specifically says he goes to that one exact mission every time he's got a significant decision of his own, it doesn't fit the shows timeline, and the characters were all written hamfistedly different than their usual hamfistedness (there's so much hamfisting on the show it's hard to tell, kind of have to take Brannon Braga's word that he was going for that even though it's like having an AI tell you that was a joke after saying something horrifying) to signify them as inexact recreations and not the real deals.

    Hevach on
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Temporal Cold War gets brought up in Discovery S3, so it's unfortunately still canon.

  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    It was also kicked off by Voyager with the 5 or 6 Captains Braxton. ("There's two more of him in my brig. We'll have them all sorted out in time for the trial though.")

  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Temporal Cold War gets brought up in Discovery S3, so it's unfortunately still canon.

    Disco must be a holodeck program too, it explains it skipping so much "classic" content. Handled.

  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    all the shows are holodeck programs, all being simultaneously analyzed by giga-barclay wired into the Enterprise Z, sole living life form in the quadrant in the year 9 billion

    Pailryder
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Discovery had some fun stuff to it, but it gave itself almost no time to build up to things or let itself breathe.

  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    edited June 24
    GUYS GUYS WHAT IF
    They're all just poorly written TV shows and we are analyzing it far more than the writers did.

    That_Guy on
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    GUYS GUYS WHAT IF
    They're all just poorly written TV shows and we are analyzing it far more than the writers did.

    :eek:

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    MegaMan001NightslyrJacobkoshT-bolt
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    If the whole series was Riker's holodeck program, he had another 400ish episodes we didn't see, because the timeline jumped from February of 2155 to October of 2061, which would have been the start of season 11.

    But he specifically says he goes to that one exact mission every time he's got a significant decision of his own, it doesn't fit the shows timeline, and the characters were all written hamfistedly different than their usual hamfistedness (there's so much hamfisting on the show it's hard to tell, kind of have to take Brannon Braga's word that he was going for that even though it's like having an AI tell you that was a joke after saying something horrifying) to signify them as inexact recreations and not the real deals.

    For 12 years, that was the last episode of Star Trek.

    I still can't believe they made the season finale a holodeck episode. How did that get out of the writer's room?

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    If the whole series was Riker's holodeck program, he had another 400ish episodes we didn't see, because the timeline jumped from February of 2155 to October of 2061, which would have been the start of season 11.

    But he specifically says he goes to that one exact mission every time he's got a significant decision of his own, it doesn't fit the shows timeline, and the characters were all written hamfistedly different than their usual hamfistedness (there's so much hamfisting on the show it's hard to tell, kind of have to take Brannon Braga's word that he was going for that even though it's like having an AI tell you that was a joke after saying something horrifying) to signify them as inexact recreations and not the real deals.

    For 12 years, that was the last episode of Star Trek.

    I still can't believe they made the season finale a holodeck episode. How did that get out of the writer's room?

    Rick Berman.

    Commander ZoomShadowenchrono_travellerautono-wally, erotibot300NightslyrboogedybooRichy
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    If the whole series was Riker's holodeck program, he had another 400ish episodes we didn't see, because the timeline jumped from February of 2155 to October of 2061, which would have been the start of season 11.

    But he specifically says he goes to that one exact mission every time he's got a significant decision of his own, it doesn't fit the shows timeline, and the characters were all written hamfistedly different than their usual hamfistedness (there's so much hamfisting on the show it's hard to tell, kind of have to take Brannon Braga's word that he was going for that even though it's like having an AI tell you that was a joke after saying something horrifying) to signify them as inexact recreations and not the real deals.

    For 12 years, that was the last episode of Star Trek.

    I still can't believe they made the season finale a holodeck episode. How did that get out of the writer's room?

    Rick Berman.

    Dude had to take one last piss all over the show/franchise.

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    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    CambiataMancingtomautono-wally, erotibot300Nightslyr
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    He pissed on the show and told us it was a love letter to the franchise.

    Now I'm normally not one to yuck yums but that sort of stuff requires honesty and clear boundaries and he provided neither.

    CambiataMancingtomNightslyr
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited June 24
    To be fair, Johnathan Frakes was all about making a run on Majel Barrett's appearance record, too, so things lined up a little too easily for everyone involved.

    Hevach on
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    To be fair, Johnathan Frakes was all about making a run on Majel Barrett's appearance record, too, so things lined up a little too easily for everyone involved.

    Then they should've done a hat trick for time travel finales. Captain Archer meets Captain Riker, we see the Titan on screen in 2005. That's how you do a crowd-pleaser.

    Cambiatachrono_travellerZilla360Harry Dresden
  • Quantum TigerQuantum Tiger Half Pam/Half Garf/All Lovin Where all your dreams come true!Registered User regular


    I hate this

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