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[Star Trek] Keep On Trekkin' (Lower Decks stuff in SPOILERS)

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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    Auralynx wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    I would point out that the ability sense when somebody is mentally sick(aka Telepathy) is such a huge step forward for the that we can't see it from here. Vulcan Telepathy is such a game changer vis a vis psychology that its not even funny. Combine that with tricorders that can scan exactly what is wrong with you biochemically at a wave in your direction, replicators that can make the exact medication you need without the trial and error we are stuck with, down to variation for metabolism, age and weight... its magic by our standards.

    That's not even going into the ability to repair damage genes and fix biochemical birth defects causing schizophrenia/BPD. Autism would probably be extinct in the Trek universe, at least in its more extreme forms.

    All this for a field of study that is less than 150 years old in our time and less than 50 years of actual scientific progress.
    That seems like an absolutely terrible idea, mind melds are a two way street. I mean yeah you effectively diagnosed a psychopath but 9 times out of 10 you then end up with two psychopaths running around the ship.

    ... I really want to see an oughts-style Magical Autism Detective show but in the TOS era with a Vulcan protagonist now. Just nothing but batshit-crazy Mind Meld Problems / Sex Ghost / Energy Being stories solved by absurd logical rigor and / or the human partner with a heart of gold.

    every episode ends like a reverse Scooby Doo episode where instead of them unmasking the ghost, they unmask Old Man Withers to reveal that he's actually a ghost pirate pretending to be a creepy old man.

    Auralynx
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited March 4
    I had always assumed that the money that the officers on DS9 had was given to Starfleet by the Bajoran Government as an administration fee, or whatever the Bajorans would call it, so that Sisko could have an operational budget in a part of space where latinum is the preferred currency - after all the economy on the station would be pretty shit if the officers running it had no money to engage with the locals - they could just install a holodeck, but paying Quark to use his moves money around the station economy in a way that would be beneficial to acceptance of Starfleet by the locals

    We know for a fact that while Sisko pays bills when required with his budget, he doesn't give a shit if Starfleet is ever paid back by locals who owe them money - the entire thing is just politics to help make people feel at ease with starfleet and make the transition easier. In many ways, the quality of life of the Starfleet officers would be a lot better if they whined to Starfleet and got a Fed holodeck and entertainment dome constructed, but they very *very* much want to avoid looking to the Bajorans like their "superiors" living in luxury above a toiling world

    meanwhile, the industrial replicator that Bajor was given by Starfleet is likely more valuable (to empires that use money, like the Cardassians) than the entire planet's GDP

    override367 on
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    hlprmnky wrote: »
    Weeeeeeeell, first you gotta have people who can feel in-group empathy that isn’t scoped by Dunbar’s number.

    This is where I had to stop a moment and laugh. Well, I suppose that if you have a society that can (also) travel faster than c and "compensate" for Heisenberg (wtf?), sure, why not! I mean, if I had to say which of those is the most impossible seeming...

    (Seriously, though, great post.)

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    CroakerBC wrote: »
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    I would point out that the ability sense when somebody is mentally sick(aka Telepathy) is such a huge step forward for the that we can't see it from here. Vulcan Telepathy is such a game changer vis a vis psychology that its not even funny. Combine that with tricorders that can scan exactly what is wrong with you biochemically at a wave in your direction, replicators that can make the exact medication you need without the trial and error we are stuck with, down to variation for metabolism, age and weight... its magic by our standards.

    That's not even going into the ability to repair damage genes and fix biochemical birth defects causing schizophrenia/BPD. Autism would probably be extinct in the Trek universe, at least in its more extreme forms.

    All this for a field of study that is less than 150 years old in our time and less than 50 years of actual scientific progress.
    That seems like an absolutely terrible idea, mind melds are a two way street. I mean yeah you effectively diagnosed a psychopath but 9 times out of 10 you then end up with two psychopaths running around the ship.

    Pretty much, I mean Voyager has a few episodes where tuvok tried to treat or cure that crewman that was a sociopathic serial killer and that didn't work at all and almost drove tuvok insane in the process


    Also I don't think they can cure genetic diseases yet or picard wouldn't still be running around with shalafts syndrome

    Part of that is the deep taboo against genetic modification, thanks to WW3, and all the other general augment chaos since, I think. One of Earth’s particular bugbears, which may affect genetic cures (leaving aside the ethical dilemma around “curing” certain conditions)

    One of the conceits/assumptions of the setting, expanded on in the ancillary material (including STO), is that almost every species has tried messing with the genome and it never turns out well. Either the Nazis supermen take over, or something else goes wrong. There's a strong underlying message/moral of "don't try to take shortcuts or let your technological progress outstrip social. Just let development proceed in its divinely ordained destined/fated natural course, and everything will work out for the best." (Unless your entire civilization is wiped out by a random asteroid or supernova, or a plague or genetic disorder you could have fixed if only... :P )

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    Doodmann
  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Compensating for Heisenberg is just making sure there is no blue meth running around, come on now.

  • evilmrhenryevilmrhenry Registered User regular
    Humanity's strength in Star Trek is education, and I can believe they've figured out how to consistently teach "how to have empathy for people you don't see as part of the tribe". It won't work for everybody, but as long as it works for enough people, you'll be in good shape, socially.

    Doodmann
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    Humanity's strength in Star Trek is education, and I can believe they've figured out how to consistently teach "how to have empathy for people you don't see as part of the tribe". It won't work for everybody, but as long as it works for enough people, you'll be in good shape, socially.
    And you know, even in S1 TNG when Gene was seeing himself as a literal prophet (lol), the storylines were still often about humans doing something bad.

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    Jacobkosh
  • StrikorStrikor Calibrations? Calibrations! Registered User regular
    They really tried with the ferengi, though. Boy did they try.

    I was killing Thresher Maws on foot before I knew it was a Krogan rite of passage.
    Shadowen
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 5
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    Richy on
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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    The problem with trying to discuss the Federations economy is that fans watching the series as a whole years after the fact like to treat each individual piece of information given in different episodes like they're a small part of a coherent larger narrative, the trouble is this isn't the case. I don't think there's any strategic oversight when dozens of different writers over decades have each made individual little snippets that are only meant to serve a plot point of the episode they're in. Then fans come along and attempt to stitch it all together and it doesn't make any sense.

    The world building foundations of the Federations society are very intentionally left blank because all the viewer needs to know is "it's better/more advanced than yours". Star Trek isn't "Das Kapital", it isn't one mans attempt to redefine the foundations of society. Gene Roddenberry did not know how to build a post-economic, post-scarcity society from scratch. It's a dorky sci-fi show that's a vehicle for morality plays. When you start picking at the veneer and trying to peek behind the curtain it falls apart pretty quickly and you realise you're looking at a theatre stage set not a real world.

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
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    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Yeah that's the thing. Star Trek can't show us the intricate workings of a futuristics post-scarcity society because no one know how one would actually work

    Add to that that this was never the focus of the show, but a part of the backdrop, and you get a very hazy view on the whole topic.



    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
    Richy
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    None of which stops fans from trying!
    Because we're nerds.

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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    The Federation functions on a King Crimson based economy ... it just works

    Naphtali
  • Lost CanuckLost Canuck World's Greatest Escape Artist Doctor Vundabar's Murder MachineRegistered User regular
    The Federation's economy is based on larks' tongues in aspic?

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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    The Federation's economy is based on larks' tongues in aspic?

    Well, replicated aspic, but yes.
    Real larks' tongue though. Gotta have that fresh consistency.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    I mean it's true the writers aren't as interested as Iain M. Banks in describing anarcho-communism and how it's totally feasible with enough technology and automation

    But I don't think American audiences would have largely been receptive to Jake breaking down why private property is bad, it's only just now starting to be not shocking in mainstream American political discourse to even breath that kind of thing

    Granted, I would love it if Star Trek did this, and I do kind of hate that NuTrek is largely uninterested in exploring this optimistic future where capitalism is a dragon we slew long ago. Shit could you imagine if enterprise or discovery were more smartly written and actually showed us Earth casting off the last vestiges of capitalism, and the unavoidable temporary unrest that would have caused?

    Terra Nova showing the last gasp of Humanity First/Fascism as a centralized, organised movement was really cool, so something like that!

    A post scarcity society progresses naturally from capitalism, there's no dragon to slay. Everything becomes more and more efficient until the basic necessities are "too cheap to meter" and thus free.

    Getting rid of private property still sounds crazy and as far as I can tell Star Trek has done no such thing, but yea sure I agree any kind of "life in the Federation" angles like this would be neat to explore.

    Whaaaat? How?

    Capitalism's natural conclusion is a handful of entities owning literally everything and doling out the barest minimum they can so that their workers can buy cheap mass produced goods. As an example I'll point to Amazon's fight against worker unionization or the mere fact that we could end homelessness practically overnight if we wanted to, for less money than Jeff Bezos is worth

    at some point there would have to be a massive populist movement to decide that "Private property is bad", capitalism isn't going to decide that Landlords as a concept are evil for example


    Edit: "Getting rid of private property sounds crazy"? I mean in our current climate, sure does, what sense does it make in Star Trek? I will clarify that Private Property refers to ownership of property that you as an individual are unable to make use of

    Private Property would not be the Hansons owning a spaceship, it would be Beverly Crusher owning The Enterprise. Your home is still your home, but you don't get to own 32000 homes in a metropolitan area and start a corporation that collects passive value from people because you have a regional monopoly on one of the basic needs of human beings

    Almost assuredly, property other than personal property is collectively owned by the community in Federation "core worlds" and if, say, you want to open a restaurant, you'd probably have to prove to a board or committee or whatever that you were serious about it for them to grant you one of the few limited resources left: prime real estate

    "Natural" does not necessarily mean peaceful.

    Ultimately the end point of capitalism is either a communist revolution, bloodless or otherwise, or a global cull ala Galt's Gulch. My money is on communism just because the proletariat is, by definition, bigger.

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  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    Point of order. The Federation is a socialist society, not a communist one. The workers of The Federation do not directly control and benefit from the means of production. The state owns the means of production and distributes resources equally to the workers.

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  • CroakerBCCroakerBC TorontoRegistered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Point of order. The Federation is a socialist society, not a communist one. The workers of The Federation do not directly control and benefit from the means of production. The state owns the means of production and distributes resources equally to the workers.

    Based on what?
    Surely if a citizen has a replicator in their home, they do control the means of production.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    CroakerBC wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Point of order. The Federation is a socialist society, not a communist one. The workers of The Federation do not directly control and benefit from the means of production. The state owns the means of production and distributes resources equally to the workers.

    Based on what?
    Surely if a citizen has a replicator in their home, they do control the means of production.

    Replicators are not all the same (see the continually referenced "industrial replicator") and still require power anyway.

    Pailryder
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited March 5
    Yeah that's the thing. Star Trek can't show us the intricate workings of a futuristics post-scarcity society because no one know how one would actually work

    Add to that that this was never the focus of the show, but a part of the backdrop, and you get a very hazy view on the whole topic.



    I mean, Banks does a pretty great job of it compared to most of Star Trek

    You can hand wave away most of the messy bits when unlimited energy, automation, and matter replication are a thing

    Unless you mean the transition because that's easy enough, a unification of humanity in the face of a vast galaxy leads to people suddenly not caring so much about their tax rate, and things just get more and more democratically socialist until they just bleed into being socialist

    override367 on
  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    CroakerBC wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Point of order. The Federation is a socialist society, not a communist one. The workers of The Federation do not directly control and benefit from the means of production. The state owns the means of production and distributes resources equally to the workers.

    Based on what?
    Surely if a citizen has a replicator in their home, they do control the means of production.

    Replicators are not all the same (see the continually referenced "industrial replicator") and still require power anyway.

    Exactly. I'm talking about energy production. The Federation controls the means of energy production which in turn controls the means of producing goods via replicator.

    steam_sig.png
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    CroakerBC wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Point of order. The Federation is a socialist society, not a communist one. The workers of The Federation do not directly control and benefit from the means of production. The state owns the means of production and distributes resources equally to the workers.

    Based on what?
    Surely if a citizen has a replicator in their home, they do control the means of production.

    Replicators are not all the same (see the continually referenced "industrial replicator") and still require power anyway.

    Exactly. I'm talking about energy production. The Federation controls the means of energy production which in turn controls the means of producing goods via replicator.

    I don't think they ever show that Star Fleet controlling resources like that. The only time they talk about power generators was in DS9 during the terrorist attack on earth, and those were controlled by Earth's government.

    All resources seem to be from member worlds, either donated or given in trade and distributed to improve quality of life for Federation members or general "good neighbor" policies for non members.

  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    CroakerBC wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Point of order. The Federation is a socialist society, not a communist one. The workers of The Federation do not directly control and benefit from the means of production. The state owns the means of production and distributes resources equally to the workers.

    Based on what?
    Surely if a citizen has a replicator in their home, they do control the means of production.

    Replicators are not all the same (see the continually referenced "industrial replicator") and still require power anyway.

    Exactly. I'm talking about energy production. The Federation controls the means of energy production which in turn controls the means of producing goods via replicator.

    I don't think they ever show that Star Fleet controlling resources like that. The only time they talk about power generators was in DS9 during the terrorist attack on earth, and those were controlled by Earth's government.

    All resources seem to be from member worlds, either donated or given in trade and distributed to improve quality of life for Federation members or general "good neighbor" policies for non members.

    But Earth's government IS the Federation. I'm not talking about StarFleet. We see plenty of examples of communist societies outside of The Federation. I'll also admit the line gets pretty blurry when anyone can take a 10TW power generator that will run for 1000 years to a planet and setup their own society structured however the hell they want. However, inside of it's borders, The Federation controls the production of energy, the distribution of replicators and securing scarce resources, And that's not a bad thing. They make a policy of giving everyone whatever they want so the only limiting factor is your own personal skill and achievements.

    It's kind of freaky, The Federation's fanatical devotion to biological and genetic purity. Getting augmented in any way is seen as a bad thing and any divergence from "the path to ascension" will, at best make you a paria and ultimately lead to your own downfall most of the time. There is this unnerving theme of evolution being this linier path that ultimately unlocks godhood in a way not entirely dissimilar to a certain monotheistic religion we have now. Only, instead of righteousness being the path to eternal life in heaven, biological purity becomes the path. I kind of understand that becoming the dominant philosophy after contact with Q and The Traveler but it still just weird to me.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited March 6
    I mean, if we wanna go that route, then it's about who controls the giant antimatter production plants on inner planets like Mercury, which turn solar power into anti-deuterium so it can be shipped all over and put into M/AM reactors.
    And I would say that the government has something of a vested interest in controlling both those plants and their output. Sure, this is Star Trek and writers have managed to invent stuff which is somehow even more destructive and dangerous, like Omega molecules and red matter, but...

    (That energy ultimately comes from stars, but Trek is still a bit low on the Kardashev scale for literally controlling access to those to be a thing.)

    Commander Zoom on
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited March 6
    That_Guy wrote: »
    It's kind of freaky, The Federation's fanatical devotion to biological and genetic purity. Getting augmented in any way is seen as a bad thing and any divergence from "the path to ascension" will, at best make you a paria and ultimately lead to your own downfall most of the time. There is this unnerving theme of evolution being this linier path that ultimately unlocks godhood in a way not entirely dissimilar to a certain monotheistic religion we have now. Only, instead of righteousness being the path to eternal life in heaven, biological purity becomes the path. I kind of understand that becoming the dominant philosophy after contact with Q and The Traveler but it still just weird to me.

    Well, it's clearly how that universe works. Like I said (and you too, after a fashion), people have tried other ways and it always ends badly. It's an intrinsic bias to (that) reality, a divine law as observable and reproducible as any other scientific fact, baked into the setting by its creators, the writers. "YOU AM PLAY GODS!"

    Commander Zoom on
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited March 6
    (let's go for three, shall we?)

    I mean, for all that Trek likes to pretend to be more grounded than the likes of Star Wars or Lensmen or comic books, it's a setting with not only faster-than-light travel and communication, but time travel (separate from the previous), telepathy and other psychic/paranormal abilities, "ghosts" by any other name, evolutionary "levels" and all sorts of other pseudoscience. Also that there's some ineffable "human" quality that's lost when someone gets their mind put in a synthetic body, but not when they go through a transporter (or, more recently, when it's done to the star of the show). And that's before we get into the really silly stuff, all the justifications they made up for real-world production necessities and cost-saving measures like most species looking like humans in makeup and most societies looking like some part of Earth's history and/or the Paramount backlot. These things are no less fantastic than the Force, or banking/coasting to a stop in space (something Trek does too), or ionizing radiation giving you super-powers.

    With all of that in mind, is it any wonder that the social science is just as much asspull bullshit? :rotate:

    Commander Zoom on
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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited March 6
    That_Guy wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    CroakerBC wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Point of order. The Federation is a socialist society, not a communist one. The workers of The Federation do not directly control and benefit from the means of production. The state owns the means of production and distributes resources equally to the workers.

    Based on what?
    Surely if a citizen has a replicator in their home, they do control the means of production.

    Replicators are not all the same (see the continually referenced "industrial replicator") and still require power anyway.

    Exactly. I'm talking about energy production. The Federation controls the means of energy production which in turn controls the means of producing goods via replicator.

    I don't think they ever show that Star Fleet controlling resources like that. The only time they talk about power generators was in DS9 during the terrorist attack on earth, and those were controlled by Earth's government.

    All resources seem to be from member worlds, either donated or given in trade and distributed to improve quality of life for Federation members or general "good neighbor" policies for non members.

    But Earth's government IS the Federation. I'm not talking about StarFleet. We see plenty of examples of communist societies outside of The Federation. I'll also admit the line gets pretty blurry when anyone can take a 10TW power generator that will run for 1000 years to a planet and setup their own society structured however the hell they want. However, inside of it's borders, The Federation controls the production of energy, the distribution of replicators and securing scarce resources, And that's not a bad thing. They make a policy of giving everyone whatever they want so the only limiting factor is your own personal skill and achievements.

    It's kind of freaky, The Federation's fanatical devotion to biological and genetic purity. Getting augmented in any way is seen as a bad thing and any divergence from "the path to ascension" will, at best make you a paria and ultimately lead to your own downfall most of the time. There is this unnerving theme of evolution being this linier path that ultimately unlocks godhood in a way not entirely dissimilar to a certain monotheistic religion we have now. Only, instead of righteousness being the path to eternal life in heaven, biological purity becomes the path. I kind of understand that becoming the dominant philosophy after contact with Q and The Traveler but it still just weird to me.

    It absolutely is not, Earth government is a member of the Federation, a big member that's very important, but it like any other member maintains autonomy, that's why the Federation has to get permission to do anything on Earth. Other members have even more autonomy, keeping their own fleets and warships rather than sitting back and letting the Federation do everything for them.

    It's also how so many Earth citizens are able to just go off and make an autonomous colony... until a space monster shows up at which point they run crying back to the Federation.

    DanHibiki on
    Commander Zoomoverride367
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited March 6
    Edit

    TubularLuggage on
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    It's also how so many Earth citizens are able to just go off and make an autonomous colony... until a space monster shows up at which point they run crying back to the Federation.

    Wait, so it's a bad idea that a bunch of pacifist space hippies fly off to contested space to set up colonies right next door to a space fascist civilization so fascist that they have literally elevated parts of fascism to be part of art, then help out said colonists when they start whining about how the nearby fascists are conquering them while saying, and I quote, "what are you flower-eating humans going to do in retaliation, grow potatoes at us?" And then they eat all the potatoes! Aggressively!

  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    It's also how so many Earth citizens are able to just go off and make an autonomous colony... until a space monster shows up at which point they run crying back to the Federation.

    Wait, so it's a bad idea that a bunch of pacifist space hippies fly off to contested space to set up colonies right next door to a space fascist civilization so fascist that they have literally elevated parts of fascism to be part of art, then help out said colonists when they start whining about how the nearby fascists are conquering them while saying, and I quote, "what are you flower-eating humans going to do in retaliation, grow potatoes at us?" And then they eat all the potatoes! Aggressively!

    "First of all, you don't eat potatoes raw, second of all, that's an onion. "
    "Na ah, that's totally how they're supposed to be eaten!" Said the Gul with tears flowing down his face.

    CambiataShadowenhlprmnky
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    It's also how so many Earth citizens are able to just go off and make an autonomous colony... until a space monster shows up at which point they run crying back to the Federation.

    Wait, so it's a bad idea that a bunch of pacifist space hippies fly off to contested space to set up colonies right next door to a space fascist civilization so fascist that they have literally elevated parts of fascism to be part of art, then help out said colonists when they start whining about how the nearby fascists are conquering them while saying, and I quote, "what are you flower-eating humans going to do in retaliation, grow potatoes at us?" And then they eat all the potatoes! Aggressively!

    "First of all, you don't eat potatoes raw, second of all, that's an onion. "
    "Na ah, that's totally how they're supposed to be eaten!" Said the Gul with tears flowing down his face.

    The argument continues for nine thousand pages, creating the first classic Cardassian repetitive epic in which a non-Cardassian is acknowledged.

    AuralynxMatevShadowenoverride367
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    It's also how so many Earth citizens are able to just go off and make an autonomous colony... until a space monster shows up at which point they run crying back to the Federation.

    Wait, so it's a bad idea that a bunch of pacifist space hippies fly off to contested space to set up colonies right next door to a space fascist civilization so fascist that they have literally elevated parts of fascism to be part of art, then help out said colonists when they start whining about how the nearby fascists are conquering them while saying, and I quote, "what are you flower-eating humans going to do in retaliation, grow potatoes at us?" And then they eat all the potatoes! Aggressively!

    "First of all, you don't eat potatoes raw, second of all, that's an onion. "
    "Na ah, that's totally how they're supposed to be eaten!" Said the Gul with tears flowing down his face.

    The argument continues for nine thousand pages, creating the first classic Cardassian repetitive epic in which a non-Cardassian is acknowledged.

    Little known fact, but "I'm not owned, you're owned" is actually a Cardassian proverb.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

    Commander ZoomMatevShadowen
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    (let's go for three, shall we?)

    I mean, for all that Trek likes to pretend to be more grounded than the likes of Star Wars or Lensmen or comic books, it's a setting with not only faster-than-light travel and communication, but time travel (separate from the previous), telepathy and other psychic/paranormal abilities, "ghosts" by any other name, evolutionary "levels" and all sorts of other pseudoscience. Also that there's some ineffable "human" quality that's lost when someone gets their mind put in a synthetic body, but not when they go through a transporter (or, more recently, when it's done to the star of the show). And that's before we get into the really silly stuff, all the justifications they made up for real-world production necessities and cost-saving measures like most species looking like humans in makeup and most societies looking like some part of Earth's history and/or the Paramount backlot. These things are no less fantastic than the Force, or banking/coasting to a stop in space (something Trek does too), or ionizing radiation giving you super-powers.

    With all of that in mind, is it any wonder that the social science is just as much asspull bullshit? :rotate:

    If somebody is sitting there getting red-faced angry and feeling personally insulted that the TV show man said that you can have a society where people's worth isn't measured in dollars, I think that's indicative of something deeper and more serious than TV writers from decades ago not being physics whizzes.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    (let's go for three, shall we?)

    I mean, for all that Trek likes to pretend to be more grounded than the likes of Star Wars or Lensmen or comic books, it's a setting with not only faster-than-light travel and communication, but time travel (separate from the previous), telepathy and other psychic/paranormal abilities, "ghosts" by any other name, evolutionary "levels" and all sorts of other pseudoscience. Also that there's some ineffable "human" quality that's lost when someone gets their mind put in a synthetic body, but not when they go through a transporter (or, more recently, when it's done to the star of the show). And that's before we get into the really silly stuff, all the justifications they made up for real-world production necessities and cost-saving measures like most species looking like humans in makeup and most societies looking like some part of Earth's history and/or the Paramount backlot. These things are no less fantastic than the Force, or banking/coasting to a stop in space (something Trek does too), or ionizing radiation giving you super-powers.

    With all of that in mind, is it any wonder that the social science is just as much asspull bullshit? :rotate:

    If somebody is sitting there getting red-faced angry and feeling personally insulted that the TV show man said that you can have a society where people's worth isn't measured in dollars, I think that's indicative of something deeper and more serious than TV writers from decades ago not being physics whizzes.

    Well, yes, see above:
    Because we're nerds.

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    This reminds me of when I was in my 20s, sharing anime with my nieces and nephews. We were watching Trigun, and my oldest brother was sitting in with his kids watching. We got to the part where Vash says he "messed up", because someone he was fighting actually got hit with a bullet, then it comes out that Vash is fighting in a way such that no one gets killed, that's his end goal. My brother was pissed off at this, saying that Vash was wrong to live that way. I was still hardline conservative back then, but even I wasn't hard enough right to understand why he took that line. I was like, sure for most people that would be too difficult, but there's nothing wrong with someone taking on a specific burden like that, like this is his chosen ministry. Nope, Vash is just wrong, end of story.

    Maybe in retrospect I can see that since my brother was basically a professional soldier all his life, he could not accept even a fictional character who rejected his way of life. LIke how people who get mad at teetotalers or vegans. Also I've since realized that most of my family is insane, so that probably helps.

    It's amazing how little of that kind of talking at the screen happened in our house when Star Trek was on. At most I can remember my mother once remarking on a rerun of The Inner Light how dated a story about environmentalism would seem in the future. Oh, mom.

    While it doesn't seem that any rich were eaten. It definitely feels like a soup course with broth made from rich stock - bouillonaire if you will - was had.

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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Actually, at least in circles I run with, you don't pull a gun or fire a gun unless you are aiming to kill. No going for wounding shots, no going for warning shots, etc. For someone who really/truly takes this level of gun safety to heart, I can imagine it's a lot like "2 people typing on the same keyboard to beat a hacker".

  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    Yea I've never even held a gun in my life but "don't fire a weapon at anything you don't intend to destroy" is such a basic rule that just makes so much sense. I personally hate the "hitting someone on the head to safely knock them out" nonsense that media does.

    Anyway I wouldn't read too much into that sort of thing.

  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    Eh, it's a trope in anime for characters to intentionally limit themselves in various ways. It's why shonen has a lot of charging up, and final forms, and ultimate attacks.

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    If my brother had simply stated the gun safety rule I probably wouldn't remember it to this day, because I was also raised to understand that rule. No, he was specifically mad that Vash chose to never kill anyone.

    While it doesn't seem that any rich were eaten. It definitely feels like a soup course with broth made from rich stock - bouillonaire if you will - was had.

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