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[Legends of Runeterra] Vault skip has arrived! Hooray!

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  • YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    There's other themes in Ionia than Lee's "cares about spells" archetype that could get some attention though.

    Recall/stun, handbuff, support, first/double strike, and ephemerals are all things that have gotten support but never been viable.

    All they've ever had are elusives (which are outclassed by Burblefish currently), barrier, counterspells, and Lee Sin + Eye of the Dragon.

    Steam - BNet: Yilias #1224 - Riot: Yilias #moc
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    It would be nice to have a karma deck be viable but her level up is equal parts devastating and useless

    MNC DoverMoridin889
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Happy Vault day everyone! Let's see what rewards I got this week:

    9/2/3/1 and 2.6k Shards

    Not too bad. Quite a few WC upgrades and a sweet triple Epic from my last Diamond chest. That puts me at 50% of the EofA set completed after only two weeks, not counting my region/event stuff.

    How'd your Vault go?

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  • ChaosHatChaosHat Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    What were the changes?

    Also, and I hate to say this, but I think balance patches need to be more frequent than 4 weeks. I get not shaking things up too much since Shurima just dropped, but not hitting TF in some way made this next wait more difficult.

    I feel like the seasonal tournaments might be effecting balance changes. That would really suck if that's the case. I know some of you here are big into the tournament stuff, but I don't like the idea of it slowing down overdue changes. Players can and should have to adjust to changes in the meta on the fly.

    I actually think the move to multiple smaller expansion drops killed balance patches. Before it was really the only way to gin up new interest in a stale ladder. "Come see what we've nerfed! Maybe deck you hate isn't so good anymore! There's fun new shit to do, remember this card?" Now the new card drop drives traffic and also allows for an obscuring of balance issues. "Well we don't want to introduce new cards AND nerf a bunch of shit because we need to see if our new cards fix it!"

    Yilias
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    feel pretty strongly that ionia cards are being held back by lee sin

    I think it's pretty clear that Karma could be unnerfed with no penalty since the problem with her deck was always Ezreal anyways.

  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    pshhh didn't get a single epic in my vault

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    I got a Taliyah who is basically useless but free champ I won't complain too much.

    MNC Dover
  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    Ya I got a rhaza, mostly just shards. But I finished the shurima reward track.

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    MNC Dover
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    I’d be fine with a balance patch between expansions, but I’d also like a mini-balance for cards that have proven to be problematic over a long period of time.

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  • ChaosHatChaosHat Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    I’d be fine with a balance patch between expansions, but I’d also like a mini-balance for cards that have proven to be problematic over a long period of time.

    I think every patch should be able to be as large or small a balance patch as is warranted, imo.

    MNC DovershrykeIvelliusKasyn
  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    It's been the same way with lol forever. They just released new stuff and ignore old problems until they completely nerf something into the ground or completely change/rework it.

    3ds FC: 0645 - 7166 - 9801
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I feel like we've been getting small tweaks pretty regularly before the last few months. I wonder how much of it is specifically stuff like trying to figure out how to balance TF.

    MNC Dover
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    I like the 2v2, but once in a while you end up with that person that doesn't understand that no I can't play a focus spell in combat, and even if I could quick attack doesn't work when blocking so stop getting mad at me

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    I spent a minute in the 2v2 queue with a friend and then ended up playing a bot match and I went "welp I guess we missed the window when this was popular" and then did something else.

    I do think it's a kind of terrible 2v2 implementation. Give me two boards side by side and then we'll talk.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I think both co-op modes have been kinda bad personally.

    Just right off the top they suffer heavily from the fact that there's nothing about them that makes 2 players necessary. It's turn-based and you've got the exact same information as your partner. It just ends up feeling like you are waiting around most of the time and hoping your partner isn't doing anything stupid. Which makes it both irritating and boring because there's just a TON of downtime.

    The original vs-AI one also suffered from just terrible deck balance. A ton of the player decks were just complete shite. And the enemy decks had a ton of stupid and cheesy "It doesn't matter what the board state is right now, I play this card and I win" draws after a certain point. It wasn't challenging in a fun or interesting way. Lab of Legends did a much better job on that front imo.

  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    yeah a 2 headed giant situation would be much more interesting. i hate the current 2v2 system.

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    shrykeBedlamMoridin889
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. boom Registered User regular
    y'know i do what i can to make every bucket work but boy the lissandra/taliyah bucket is a pile

    nvm i went 7 wins i'm a pro

    liEt3nH.png
    MNC Dover
  • YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    I'm pretty sure they could drop Taliyah from 5 mana to 3 and she'd still be the worst champion.

    Steam - BNet: Yilias #1224 - Riot: Yilias #moc
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. boom Registered User regular
    the taliyah card has a lot of "the play pattern of this card was awful and unfun in internal testing so we nerfed it out of standard playability" energy

    liEt3nH.png
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    Swim put up a long rambly video about the game's balance and how Riot is approaching it and such last night. One thing he mentioned there that I'd kind of thought of before but had never realised is I think actually really pervasive is that the best champs are usually the ones that get value no matter who's turn it is to attack or who's doing actions.

    Support champs, and support in general, just doesn't make sense because it's only a thing when you are attacking. In a similar vein, Taliyah does nothing unless you are attacking. She's a "copy a landmark" spell with an attached body that only does something on the attack. And there's not enough landmarks that make copying them a value play anyway. Not released yet anyway.

    I wonder if she used to have even more landmark interaction and, like you say, she got nerfed hard. Or if there's some landmark in a future card release that will justify her existence.

    shryke on
  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    I mean they are probably somewhat hesitant to make Taliyah stronger, because it limits the strength of landmark cards they can create in the future. I mean double twisted veil is almost strong enough but definitely turns on too late to ever be oppressive.

    Most support champs aren't really strong because there is just usually too many ways to stop them from going off, but fiora/shen is still a deck so, and the deck Swim goes back to every new expansion so gotum

    PSN SeGaTai
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Fiora/Shen is a Fiora deck.

  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    Right, I think it's fine that some champs are just there to eat resources and sometimes empower your wincon - every champ can't be strong enough to carry a deck

    Suppose his point there is decks are always going to be built around the same champs that can carry a deck I suppose

    PSN SeGaTai
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    What is the definition of "best champs" in this scenario? Fizz doesn't offer value unless attacking, you even have to do extra shit to get him to be a good attacker. Lucian? Only attacking. Azir, mostly only attacking. Miss Fortune needs to attack. Sivir and Ashe are good and only get real value attacking. Same for your aggro champs, Jinx, Teemo, Draven. This seems more true many patches ago. Karma and Ezreal, Karma and Lux go off for big value no matter whose turn it is. Heimer goes off on any turn.

    Maybe if best champs is limited to TF and Aphelios then yes, but I wouldn't say that really describes the top end of the LOR meta.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    What is the definition of "best champs" in this scenario? Fizz doesn't offer value unless attacking, you even have to do extra shit to get him to be a good attacker. Lucian? Only attacking. Azir, mostly only attacking. Miss Fortune needs to attack. Sivir and Ashe are good and only get real value attacking. Same for your aggro champs, Jinx, Teemo, Draven. This seems more true many patches ago. Karma and Ezreal, Karma and Lux go off for big value no matter whose turn it is. Heimer goes off on any turn.

    Maybe if best champs is limited to TF and Aphelios then yes, but I wouldn't say that really describes the top end of the LOR meta.

    You wouldn't? That's been basically the entirety of the top end of the LOR meta for ages. Aphelios only hasn't been on that list for 6 months cause we wasn't released that long ago.

  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    What is the definition of "best champs" in this scenario? Fizz doesn't offer value unless attacking, you even have to do extra shit to get him to be a good attacker. Lucian? Only attacking. Azir, mostly only attacking. Miss Fortune needs to attack. Sivir and Ashe are good and only get real value attacking. Same for your aggro champs, Jinx, Teemo, Draven. This seems more true many patches ago. Karma and Ezreal, Karma and Lux go off for big value no matter whose turn it is. Heimer goes off on any turn.

    Maybe if best champs is limited to TF and Aphelios then yes, but I wouldn't say that really describes the top end of the LOR meta.

    In scouts MF didnt usually attack until there were no blockers so she didnt die to something random. Azir is a huge wall, that can sit back and let other units summon minions when they attack. lucian's value is in letting you gain the ability to attack. teemo is just a lightning rod that sometimes puts a ton of mushrooms in the deck, but the rest of the deck can function without him, i dont even think he is really that important to the deck. draven gives free cards and is also a discard outlet so he does something other than attack. likewise jinx just gives you a bunch of cards. karma and ez you dont even need to play until they are leveled up and then let you win the game without attacking. lux offers a big blocker the turn she comes down. basically all of those offer value outside of attacking. Ashe and Sivir dont do a whole lot outside of attacking, but they also arent really considered top tier. They do provide crazy inevitability though. ashe can just make all of your units unblockable, and sivir can give quick attack and spellshield to your units which might not physically end the game, but it's going to be a massive swing.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Support units have the bigger problem of not only needing to attack, but also having another unit to Support. That means requires you have something out prior to help her curve out, which is probably a weak unit and leaves you with little mana for combat tricks. Like Lulu is a neat card, but at 3 health, she dies when she attacks to most things. The same can be said of Shen, but he's got 5 health and is really only their to grant Fiora a Barrier.

    Most of the aggro champs (Draven, Lucien, etc) have Quick Attack to help them out and others (Azir, MF) allow for other units to attack to proc their level up. The lower end champs could definitely use some buffs or reworks to make them viable.

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  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    taliyah seems like she would be hard to block when leveled, is leveling her difficult?

  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2021
    Jars wrote: »
    taliyah seems like she would be hard to block when leveled, is leveling her difficult?

    5 Landmarks is sort of tricky right now, as most of them do nothing, or have little impact, when played. This might change as more cards are added. But her bigger problem is her stat line (2/4) is abysmal for a 5-drop. Makes it so she can't attack or block most things. Even with stat buffs, she still might not be good enough.

    Another problem is that her flipped ability doesn't go through if she's killed before he ability resolves. Not sure if that's a bug or working as intended, but it should probably change to be more like Anivia's ability. Once it's on the stack, it triggers. Another buff (which might be too much) is if she had Overwhelm when flipped. Then she'd get more guaranteed damage in on the Nexus when she attacks.

    MNC Dover on
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  • ChaosHatChaosHat Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    What is the definition of "best champs" in this scenario? Fizz doesn't offer value unless attacking, you even have to do extra shit to get him to be a good attacker. Lucian? Only attacking. Azir, mostly only attacking. Miss Fortune needs to attack. Sivir and Ashe are good and only get real value attacking. Same for your aggro champs, Jinx, Teemo, Draven. This seems more true many patches ago. Karma and Ezreal, Karma and Lux go off for big value no matter whose turn it is. Heimer goes off on any turn.

    Maybe if best champs is limited to TF and Aphelios then yes, but I wouldn't say that really describes the top end of the LOR meta.

    You wouldn't? That's been basically the entirety of the top end of the LOR meta for ages. Aphelios only hasn't been on that list for 6 months cause we wasn't released that long ago.

    I don't feel like TF and Aphelios is running away with it and the gulf between tiers 1 and 2 is not totally have and have nots.
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    What is the definition of "best champs" in this scenario? Fizz doesn't offer value unless attacking, you even have to do extra shit to get him to be a good attacker. Lucian? Only attacking. Azir, mostly only attacking. Miss Fortune needs to attack. Sivir and Ashe are good and only get real value attacking. Same for your aggro champs, Jinx, Teemo, Draven. This seems more true many patches ago. Karma and Ezreal, Karma and Lux go off for big value no matter whose turn it is. Heimer goes off on any turn.

    Maybe if best champs is limited to TF and Aphelios then yes, but I wouldn't say that really describes the top end of the LOR meta.

    In scouts MF didnt usually attack until there were no blockers so she didnt die to something random. Azir is a huge wall, that can sit back and let other units summon minions when they attack. lucian's value is in letting you gain the ability to attack. teemo is just a lightning rod that sometimes puts a ton of mushrooms in the deck, but the rest of the deck can function without him, i dont even think he is really that important to the deck. draven gives free cards and is also a discard outlet so he does something other than attack. likewise jinx just gives you a bunch of cards. karma and ez you dont even need to play until they are leveled up and then let you win the game without attacking. lux offers a big blocker the turn she comes down. basically all of those offer value outside of attacking. Ashe and Sivir dont do a whole lot outside of attacking, but they also arent really considered top tier. They do provide crazy inevitability though. ashe can just make all of your units unblockable, and sivir can give quick attack and spellshield to your units which might not physically end the game, but it's going to be a massive swing.

    Ashe has been historically a pretty good card over time. MF not attacking still doesn't mean she provides value regardless of whose turn it is, same with Azir, Draven only gives the cards when he's hitting shit and if you end up trading him for one whirling blade that's a bad trade.

    I'm not debating that TF and Aphelios are good but the thought that "champ must provide value instantly regardless" to be good doesn't seem correct to me. You could reach masters or win a gauntlet using decks with basically any of those champions.

  • BedlamBedlam Registered User regular
    I tried to make a Sivir deck that uses Fist if Furry on her leveled up but it didnt give my whole line double strike like I thought it would. Not sure if thats a bug or not.

    I GOT MY FIRST WIN in Lab of Legends with Lulu! And then my second with Riven. Probably wouldnt have kept practicing if it wasnt for the bonus XP.

    I decided I was happier playing Expedition/Gauntlet than trying to grind ranked ladder so Ive been sticking to those.

    MNC Dover
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Bedlam wrote: »
    I tried to make a Sivir deck that uses Fist if Furry on her leveled up but it didnt give my whole line double strike like I thought it would. Not sure if thats a bug or not.

    I GOT MY FIRST WIN in Lab of Legends with Lulu! And then my second with Riven. Probably wouldnt have kept practicing if it wasnt for the bonus XP.

    I decided I was happier playing Expedition/Gauntlet than trying to grind ranked ladder so Ive been sticking to those.

    Apparently Double Strike is a non-sharable keyword. Seems like it should be though, even if it's situational and OP.

    BTW, here's an official list of shared/transferable keywords.

    tdah1o4x31n2.png

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  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    2 expeditions, 1 win. just the most miserable experience of terrible card offerings and draws

  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    expeditions make no sense to me. ill draft what feels like a godmode deck and get like 2 wins, then draft some pile of garbage that takes me to 7 wins. i feel like it's 90% what you get paired up against.

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    shryke
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    usually I'll be able to shrug off a deck that I know is not going anywhere and get 5-6 wins on the second attempt, but this was uniquely bad. gauntlet was much better to me with my own decks, people were scared of MF scouts so I got to play freeze fiora a lot. came up a little short in the final against zoe/aphoe but it was close, a little more damage(or them not drawing an obliterate for my 3/4 fiora) would have won it for me.

    Jars on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    What is the definition of "best champs" in this scenario? Fizz doesn't offer value unless attacking, you even have to do extra shit to get him to be a good attacker. Lucian? Only attacking. Azir, mostly only attacking. Miss Fortune needs to attack. Sivir and Ashe are good and only get real value attacking. Same for your aggro champs, Jinx, Teemo, Draven. This seems more true many patches ago. Karma and Ezreal, Karma and Lux go off for big value no matter whose turn it is. Heimer goes off on any turn.

    Maybe if best champs is limited to TF and Aphelios then yes, but I wouldn't say that really describes the top end of the LOR meta.

    You wouldn't? That's been basically the entirety of the top end of the LOR meta for ages. Aphelios only hasn't been on that list for 6 months cause we wasn't released that long ago.

    I don't feel like TF and Aphelios is running away with it and the gulf between tiers 1 and 2 is not totally have and have nots.
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    What is the definition of "best champs" in this scenario? Fizz doesn't offer value unless attacking, you even have to do extra shit to get him to be a good attacker. Lucian? Only attacking. Azir, mostly only attacking. Miss Fortune needs to attack. Sivir and Ashe are good and only get real value attacking. Same for your aggro champs, Jinx, Teemo, Draven. This seems more true many patches ago. Karma and Ezreal, Karma and Lux go off for big value no matter whose turn it is. Heimer goes off on any turn.

    Maybe if best champs is limited to TF and Aphelios then yes, but I wouldn't say that really describes the top end of the LOR meta.

    In scouts MF didnt usually attack until there were no blockers so she didnt die to something random. Azir is a huge wall, that can sit back and let other units summon minions when they attack. lucian's value is in letting you gain the ability to attack. teemo is just a lightning rod that sometimes puts a ton of mushrooms in the deck, but the rest of the deck can function without him, i dont even think he is really that important to the deck. draven gives free cards and is also a discard outlet so he does something other than attack. likewise jinx just gives you a bunch of cards. karma and ez you dont even need to play until they are leveled up and then let you win the game without attacking. lux offers a big blocker the turn she comes down. basically all of those offer value outside of attacking. Ashe and Sivir dont do a whole lot outside of attacking, but they also arent really considered top tier. They do provide crazy inevitability though. ashe can just make all of your units unblockable, and sivir can give quick attack and spellshield to your units which might not physically end the game, but it's going to be a massive swing.

    Ashe has been historically a pretty good card over time. MF not attacking still doesn't mean she provides value regardless of whose turn it is, same with Azir, Draven only gives the cards when he's hitting shit and if you end up trading him for one whirling blade that's a bad trade.

    I'm not debating that TF and Aphelios are good but the thought that "champ must provide value instantly regardless" to be good doesn't seem correct to me. You could reach masters or win a gauntlet using decks with basically any of those champions.

    I think the power level of champs like TF and Aphelios is pretty clearly a good chunk above the rest. For exactly the reason that they are incredibly versatile in terms of when they can get value.

    And no one said "champ must provide value instantly regardless". It's that only doing something when you attack makes a champ more limited and thus less powerful. Same as champs that need to level on board instead of in deck or a host of other things. Support is especially vulnerable to this issue because it's probably the most conditional and most easily disruptable thing in the game on top of being extremely risky because defender chooses blockers.

    If you wanna know why TF and Fiora and Aphelios are just floating around the best decks in the game for ages now and Lulu doesn't even have barrel left and is scrapping full steam through the foundation, that's probably why.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    expeditions make no sense to me. ill draft what feels like a godmode deck and get like 2 wins, then draft some pile of garbage that takes me to 7 wins. i feel like it's 90% what you get paired up against.

    I generally hate expeditions. The draft system fucks me over and over again when you try and build around a concept of any sort and it feels pretty random what ends up working and what doesn't.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    On the other hand, trying to get another win with MF in Lab of Legends I ended up creating a hilarious beatdown deck with a 4/4 Teemo with Scout. The last levels weren't even a challenge.

  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    I tried MF again making sure to get the +2/+2 on 1 costs again and it was a steamroll. with that I think she is the easiest champ to do it on because you can't get overwhelmed by the hextech enemies(I was winning in 3-5 turns every match).

  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Paging @Thawmus and @Lucid_Seraph! Come join us in the fun. :)

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