World's a scary place, and Wakanda knows that a lot of people would not treat their borders as their borders, so why respect that with anything else? If anything they probably requested Zemo originally and were denied and now they are proven right they should have had him to start.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I’m gonna predict that Walker loses the shield, but doesn’t die or go to jail or even lose his job, just to really rub in that privilege he’s got to the audience.
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Speaking of jurisdiction, am I the only one who thinks what the Dora Milaje said about it was pretty fucked up?
Considering it tends to be agents of US policy saying it, no.
It's also what the Avengers did. Sokovia, Lagos, they just went there and did things.
It's obviously bad when real life governments just decide that they can do whatever they want wherever they want. But in fiction, it's sometimes good people like the Avengers or the Dora Milaje hunting down genuinely dangerous people in an attempt to stop them from doing harm. Now, in this particular story the Dora Milaje were framed as somewhat antagonistic (because we, the audience, know that Zemo's been actually helpful in tracking down the Flag Smashers), but from their point of view they're the king's personal guard who are hunting down the person who killed their former king. They're not trying to overthrow governments or assassinate political figures, they're just looking to arrest a murderer. Perfectly justifiable good guy behaviour.
Speaking of jurisdiction, am I the only one who thinks what the Dora Milaje said about it was pretty fucked up?
Yeah it did, but I think that was the entire point. They have no more or less jurisdiction than anyone else in that room. The audience is only given a chance to have it feel really awkward from one team though. It very much feels like it was meant to make the audience question their own feelings about vigilantes trying to right the worlds wrongs. I really love it as a moment.
Speaking of jurisdiction, am I the only one who thinks what the Dora Milaje said about it was pretty fucked up?
Yeah it did, but I think that was the entire point. They have no more or less jurisdiction than anyone else in that room. The audience is only given a chance to have it feel really awkward from one team though. It very much feels like it was meant to make the audience question their own feelings about vigilantes trying to right the worlds wrongs. I really love it as a moment.
I disagree, although I agree with your assessment that no one has any offical say in that moment.
For me it was a "put your money where your mouth is or sit down" challenge.
Walker ante'ed up and got hosed anyway.
I mean props on trying but getting butthurt because you lost with a weapon you aren't proficient with against professionals was supremely weak.
Also I know this likely ain't how it works, but woulda been cool of Walker to split the serum with Battlestar so he didn't get instagibbed
Two half super soliders is probably better than one dickhead whole
Which brings the question of how the dosing of that vial actually works. Like, does it do nothing until you reach a certain threshold, then VEINS ON FIRE and then Super strength? What about weight differences? Why aren't they dosing it based on weight and BMI?
Also I know this likely ain't how it works, but woulda been cool of Walker to split the serum with Battlestar so he didn't get instagibbed
Two half super soliders is probably better than one dickhead whole
Which brings the question of how the dosing of that vial actually works. Like, does it do nothing until you reach a certain threshold, then VEINS ON FIRE and then Super strength? What about weight differences? Why aren't they dosing it based on weight and BMI?
Speaking of jurisdiction, am I the only one who thinks what the Dora Milaje said about it was pretty fucked up?
Yeah it did, but I think that was the entire point. They have no more or less jurisdiction than anyone else in that room. The audience is only given a chance to have it feel really awkward from one team though. It very much feels like it was meant to make the audience question their own feelings about vigilantes trying to right the worlds wrongs. I really love it as a moment.
I disagree, although I agree with your assessment that no one has any offical say in that moment.
For me it was a "put your money where your mouth is or sit down" challenge.
Walker ante'ed up and got hosed anyway.
I mean props on trying but getting butthurt because you lost with a weapon you aren't proficient with against professionals was supremely weak.
He is proficient with it, they showed video of his training, he literally managed to throw it in such a way to land perfectly under Battlestar while hanging from the back of a truck. The point is that somehow, the three skinny, unenhanced women, have more raw strength than the career soldier. Which I didn't get. But eh. Like outskilling him fine, it still leaves him beaten. But he is absolutely proficient with the shield. The only time he isn't seems to be when he is enhanced and throws it so hard it embeds in a wall instead of just bouncing off it.
I wonder who's gonna pimp slap Walker. Both Sam and Bucky have reason to, but I'm not warm to the idea of Walker being such a boss that he can stand up to either of em on his own.
I'm hoping Zemo ... Maybe with Sam's big hero moment being talking Zemo down, rather than beating Walker up.
I think we got a taste of what a super solider that throws punches to kill looks like with Walker in this ep. Walker isn't trying to hold back at all, whereas the Flagsmashies up to that point haven't been using deadly force (well using their powers anyways). Also can I just say, Zemo should be dead from taking that shield to the dome.
Lots of good use of music motifs in this ep too, when nuCap gets his ass kicked by Dora Milaje it plays the Civil War theme slowly.
Speaking of jurisdiction, am I the only one who thinks what the Dora Milaje said about it was pretty fucked up?
Yeah it did, but I think that was the entire point. They have no more or less jurisdiction than anyone else in that room. The audience is only given a chance to have it feel really awkward from one team though. It very much feels like it was meant to make the audience question their own feelings about vigilantes trying to right the worlds wrongs. I really love it as a moment.
I disagree, although I agree with your assessment that no one has any offical say in that moment.
For me it was a "put your money where your mouth is or sit down" challenge.
Walker ante'ed up and got hosed anyway.
I mean props on trying but getting butthurt because you lost with a weapon you aren't proficient with against professionals was supremely weak.
He is proficient with it, they showed video of his training, he literally managed to throw it in such a way to land perfectly under Battlestar while hanging from the back of a truck. The point is that somehow, the three skinny, unenhanced women, have more raw strength than the career soldier. Which I didn't get. But eh. Like outskilling him fine, it still leaves him beaten. But he is absolutely proficient with the shield. The only time he isn't seems to be when he is enhanced and throws it so hard it embeds in a wall instead of just bouncing off it.
Being able to throw the shield at a stationary target isn't demonstrating proficiency.
Or put another way: I assume those Wakandan warriors train their entire lives using those spears and practice fighting people with different equipment/skill sets.
Walker can huck the thing but has no experience fighting outside of a modern military role.
Re: strength.
He was outclassed and picked a 2v3 fight.
To be fair there were plenty of folks who were just peak human who were expected to sign the accords. And before we talk about Hawkeye or Falcon in that capacity, I do think running around with a modified armor jacket, helmet that can eat a grenade, and being able to chuck a disc made out of vibranium with incredible precision makes that list.
Walker seems to handle the shield ok to start. For an average human to toss it and have it go exactly where they want it to is likely really difficult. The issue isn't that he isn't skilled enough to be Cap (on paper he is), he doesn't have the character to be anything like what Cap needs to be. He doesn't have humility or honesty on his side.
I think we got a taste of what a super solider that throws punches to kill looks like with Walker in this ep. Walker isn't trying to hold back at all, whereas the Flagsmashies up to that point haven't been using deadly force (well using their powers anyways). Also can I just say, Zemo should be dead from taking that shield to the dome.
Lots of good use of music motifs in this ep too, when nuCap gets his ass kicked by Dora Milaje it plays the Civil War theme slowly.
Zemo took the shield to the head prior to Walker even picking up the vial (thus, before Walker had super strength). Which, I mean, a Vibranium shield to the head probably could still be deadly. But he was nursing a head injury with a cold pack while lying down in a subsequent scene.
Walker seems to handle the shield ok to start. For an average human to toss it and have it go exactly where they want it to is likely really difficult. The issue isn't that he isn't skilled enough to be Cap (on paper he is), he doesn't have the character to be anything like what Cap needs to be. He doesn't have humility or honesty on his side.
Yeah, Walker losing to the Doras isn't down to his lack of skill, so much as proof that the Doras are really fucking good at fighting. They also handled Sam and Bucky easily.*
The key parts of the scene are Walker's snide disregard for the Doras before the fight starts and his childish reaction to losing afterward.
*I would note that Sam/Bucky and the Doras weren't fighting each other at full bore. Sam/Bucky were definitely just trying to keep them stabbing Walker/Battlestar and in turn the Doras were just "please get out of our way."
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Speaking of jurisdiction, am I the only one who thinks what the Dora Milaje said about it was pretty fucked up?
Yeah it did, but I think that was the entire point. They have no more or less jurisdiction than anyone else in that room. The audience is only given a chance to have it feel really awkward from one team though. It very much feels like it was meant to make the audience question their own feelings about vigilantes trying to right the worlds wrongs. I really love it as a moment.
I disagree, although I agree with your assessment that no one has any offical say in that moment.
For me it was a "put your money where your mouth is or sit down" challenge.
Walker ante'ed up and got hosed anyway.
I mean props on trying but getting butthurt because you lost with a weapon you aren't proficient with against professionals was supremely weak.
He is proficient with it, they showed video of his training, he literally managed to throw it in such a way to land perfectly under Battlestar while hanging from the back of a truck. The point is that somehow, the three skinny, unenhanced women, have more raw strength than the career soldier. Which I didn't get. But eh. Like outskilling him fine, it still leaves him beaten. But he is absolutely proficient with the shield. The only time he isn't seems to be when he is enhanced and throws it so hard it embeds in a wall instead of just bouncing off it.
Oh, that was another neat thing. We knew Isaiah Bradley was a super soldier when he threw an ashtray into the wall, so just in case you're unsure if Walker has taken the serum or not, he does the same thing with the shield.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
There seems to be an argument being made by the show that they should've made Hoskins the new Cap, too. They actually had a decent choice standing right next to Walker, and they chose the white guy who got all the glory instead of the black guy who apparently was standing next to him the whole time. The person who also served as Walker's conscience and empathy. So when he dies...
I think we got a taste of what a super solider that throws punches to kill looks like with Walker in this ep. Walker isn't trying to hold back at all, whereas the Flagsmashies up to that point haven't been using deadly force (well using their powers anyways). Also can I just say, Zemo should be dead from taking that shield to the dome.
Lots of good use of music motifs in this ep too, when nuCap gets his ass kicked by Dora Milaje it plays the Civil War theme slowly.
Zemo took the shield to the head prior to Walker even picking up the vial (thus, before Walker had super strength). Which, I mean, a Vibranium shield to the head probably could still be deadly. But he was nursing a head injury with a cold pack while lying down in a subsequent scene.
I don't care who you are, taking a metal shield to the head that fast cracks your skull if you're a normal human. Unless vibranium is like, tin foil or something
saw a neat theory floating on the interwebs, namely:
zemo injects sam with some serum. Him acknowledging rogers as an acceptable super and his whole "if you want it, you aren't suitable for it" philosophy combined with sam outright rejecting it could pave the way!
Oh, that was another neat thing. We knew Isaiah Bradley was a super soldier when he threw an ashtray into the wall, so just in case you're unsure if Walker has taken the serum or not, he does the same thing with the shield.
Ash trays aren't shields.
In comics, the shield has a blunt side and a sharp side, and captain America can control which side he uses thanks to skill. That's also why falcon can catch the shield in the trailer.
saw a neat theory floating on the interwebs, namely:
zemo injects sam with some serum. Him acknowledging rogers as an acceptable super and his whole "if you want it, you aren't suitable for it" philosophy combined with sam outright rejecting it could pave the way!
I was wondering if he had pocketed some with his smashing spree.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
saw a neat theory floating on the interwebs, namely:
zemo injects sam with some serum. Him acknowledging rogers as an acceptable super and his whole "if you want it, you aren't suitable for it" philosophy combined with sam outright rejecting it could pave the way!
I don't see him hanging onto one of the vials, especially since that conversation was after he smashed them. Granted, if for some reason he had, it would have probably prompted his asking Sam about it.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I'm fine with the idea of Sam becoming a super soldier.
I am not fine with Sam becoming a super soldier without his consent. That's way too close to what was done to Isaiah.
I loved it when Steve gave Sam the shield in Endgame. I'd love if Sam takes up the mantle. I'd hate it—truly, deeply, hate it—if it's forced on him in any way.
I do like that Zemo is basically the only one of them that knows how to deal with the displaced persons. It makes sense, considering that he is from a war-torn, Eastern European nation. Even if (possibly especially because) he was part of a death squad, he's got a better idea of what they've been through and how to approach them than two American soldiers.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I'm fine with the idea of Sam becoming a super soldier.
I am not fine with Sam becoming a super soldier without his consent. That's way too close to what was done to Isaiah.
I loved it when Steve gave Sam the shield in Endgame. I'd love if Sam takes up the mantle. I'd hate it—truly, deeply, hate it—if it's forced on him in any way.
It would depend on how you do it, but from a distance there are more differences than similarities:
Isaiah was experimented on to produce a serum and after fielding testing it was used as a guinea pig to make of the stuff with no official recognition of what happened.
None of that would apply to Sam. On the contrary, him having the shield, being powered and being a worthy successor to Steve would force the government, for once in their miserable history, to do the right thing.
If anyone is getting milked for the serum, it's Karli. I could see Sharon kidnapped her and hiring some more scientists.
Oh, that was another neat thing. We knew Isaiah Bradley was a super soldier when he threw an ashtray into the wall, so just in case you're unsure if Walker has taken the serum or not, he does the same thing with the shield.
Ash trays aren't shields.
In comics, the shield has a blunt side and a sharp side, and captain America can control which side he uses thanks to skill. That's also why falcon can catch the shield in the trailer.
Presumably, walker would be at least that level.
I mean, this wasn't a skilled throw, he's off-balance and throws it at someone who isn't there any longer (and then needs both hands to pull it out of a concrete wall, so not something he could have done without the serum regardless of skill), but I'm not arguing the logistics of it, I'm saying it's neat how the filmmakers mirror the reveal of Isaiah being a supersoldier (angrily throwing an object at a wall with enough force to imbed it) with Walker doing the same once he's become one.
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Considering it tends to be agents of US policy saying it, no.
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It's also what the Avengers did. Sokovia, Lagos, they just went there and did things.
It's obviously bad when real life governments just decide that they can do whatever they want wherever they want. But in fiction, it's sometimes good people like the Avengers or the Dora Milaje hunting down genuinely dangerous people in an attempt to stop them from doing harm. Now, in this particular story the Dora Milaje were framed as somewhat antagonistic (because we, the audience, know that Zemo's been actually helpful in tracking down the Flag Smashers), but from their point of view they're the king's personal guard who are hunting down the person who killed their former king. They're not trying to overthrow governments or assassinate political figures, they're just looking to arrest a murderer. Perfectly justifiable good guy behaviour.
I know they can't do that because this is Sam's story and Sam needs to earn his victory himself.
But it would be great to see.
Two half super soliders is probably better than one dickhead whole
Yeah it did, but I think that was the entire point. They have no more or less jurisdiction than anyone else in that room. The audience is only given a chance to have it feel really awkward from one team though. It very much feels like it was meant to make the audience question their own feelings about vigilantes trying to right the worlds wrongs. I really love it as a moment.
I disagree, although I agree with your assessment that no one has any offical say in that moment.
For me it was a "put your money where your mouth is or sit down" challenge.
Walker ante'ed up and got hosed anyway.
I mean props on trying but getting butthurt because you lost with a weapon you aren't proficient with against professionals was supremely weak.
Just think of it like a vaccine.
He is proficient with it, they showed video of his training, he literally managed to throw it in such a way to land perfectly under Battlestar while hanging from the back of a truck. The point is that somehow, the three skinny, unenhanced women, have more raw strength than the career soldier. Which I didn't get. But eh. Like outskilling him fine, it still leaves him beaten. But he is absolutely proficient with the shield. The only time he isn't seems to be when he is enhanced and throws it so hard it embeds in a wall instead of just bouncing off it.
I'm hoping Zemo ... Maybe with Sam's big hero moment being talking Zemo down, rather than beating Walker up.
"The Dora Milaje don't have jurisdiction here."
-Captain America, trying to arrest someone in Latvia
- John Stuart Mill
Lots of good use of music motifs in this ep too, when nuCap gets his ass kicked by Dora Milaje it plays the Civil War theme slowly.
Probably not, but since he's an actual member of the military he's probably under even more restrictions than just what the Accords would describe
In fact him taking the serum without consulting the government might have him end up as the next Isiah
Being able to throw the shield at a stationary target isn't demonstrating proficiency.
Or put another way: I assume those Wakandan warriors train their entire lives using those spears and practice fighting people with different equipment/skill sets.
Walker can huck the thing but has no experience fighting outside of a modern military role.
Re: strength.
He was outclassed and picked a 2v3 fight.
Yeah, Walker losing to the Doras isn't down to his lack of skill, so much as proof that the Doras are really fucking good at fighting. They also handled Sam and Bucky easily.*
The key parts of the scene are Walker's snide disregard for the Doras before the fight starts and his childish reaction to losing afterward.
*I would note that Sam/Bucky and the Doras weren't fighting each other at full bore. Sam/Bucky were definitely just trying to keep them stabbing Walker/Battlestar and in turn the Doras were just "please get out of our way."
Disarmed.
Oh, that was another neat thing. We knew Isaiah Bradley was a super soldier when he threw an ashtray into the wall, so just in case you're unsure if Walker has taken the serum or not, he does the same thing with the shield.
- John Stuart Mill
I don't care who you are, taking a metal shield to the head that fast cracks your skull if you're a normal human. Unless vibranium is like, tin foil or something
The choice means more when turned down, and means even more when Walker literally steals his shot at powers
Ash trays aren't shields.
In comics, the shield has a blunt side and a sharp side, and captain America can control which side he uses thanks to skill. That's also why falcon can catch the shield in the trailer.
Presumably, walker would be at least that level.
I was wondering if he had pocketed some with his smashing spree.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I don't see him hanging onto one of the vials, especially since that conversation was after he smashed them. Granted, if for some reason he had, it would have probably prompted his asking Sam about it.
- John Stuart Mill
I am not fine with Sam becoming a super soldier without his consent. That's way too close to what was done to Isaiah.
I loved it when Steve gave Sam the shield in Endgame. I'd love if Sam takes up the mantle. I'd hate it—truly, deeply, hate it—if it's forced on him in any way.
- John Stuart Mill
It would depend on how you do it, but from a distance there are more differences than similarities:
Isaiah was experimented on to produce a serum and after fielding testing it was used as a guinea pig to make of the stuff with no official recognition of what happened.
None of that would apply to Sam. On the contrary, him having the shield, being powered and being a worthy successor to Steve would force the government, for once in their miserable history, to do the right thing.
If anyone is getting milked for the serum, it's Karli. I could see Sharon kidnapped her and hiring some more scientists.
But eventually he's going to realize that the world needs a Captain America and there's no one else in line.
I forget, was Sam around when everyone was trying to pick up the hammer?
pleasepaypreacher.net
I mean, this wasn't a skilled throw, he's off-balance and throws it at someone who isn't there any longer (and then needs both hands to pull it out of a concrete wall, so not something he could have done without the serum regardless of skill), but I'm not arguing the logistics of it, I'm saying it's neat how the filmmakers mirror the reveal of Isaiah being a supersoldier (angrily throwing an object at a wall with enough force to imbed it) with Walker doing the same once he's become one.