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U.S Immigration

ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
Here is a thread for discussing American immigration and related policy. The last thread was closed because people were being snarky, hostile, and generally acting in ways not conducive to enjoyable discussion. It is okay to engage in impassioned debate! It is not okay to use that passion to make this thread an unpleasant place for others, even if you care really super hard about something. It is also not okay to tell someone what their TRUE motivations OBVIOUSLY are, or rehash old arguments from other threads.

We are starting this thread with some preemptive kickings. We are not against adding more to the list, and this thread is operating on a pretty zero tolerance policy right now.

Happy trails, folks!

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Posts

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Geth, kick @Elendil from the thread.

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  • GethGeth Legion Perseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    Affirmative ElJeffe. @Elendil banned from this thread.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Geth, kick @Smrtnik from the thread.

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  • GethGeth Legion Perseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    Affirmative ElJeffe. @Smrtnik banned from this thread.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Photos of the conditions inside the immigrant detention centers have been coming out and uh its pretty fuckin bad.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56491941

    Still, last I checked, no outside lawyers being allowed in either.

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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Yep, any goodwill I had for this admin on this issue is either just about gone or beyond gone. Any action has to be immediate and fundamental at this point, not just "We're working on it". Kids on floors is NOT better than kids in cages.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited March 24
    The condition of the facilities being reported by children interviewed by lawyers should horrify everyone, but not because it's children going through this. I think our focus in the latter pages of the previous thread on discussing what to do with "unaccompanied" minors had us lose sight of the fact that no one, regardless of age, should be being held in these conditions.
    On March 2, the Donna complex was holding more than 1,800 people — 729% of its pandemic-era capacity, which is designed for 250 migrants, according to an internal CBP document reviewed by CBS News.
    ..."One of them shared that he could only see the sun when he showered, because you can see the sun through the window," Desai said, noting the children raised this issue during their interviews outside the CBP facility.
    ...
    "Multiple kids said the exact same sentence: 'the only time I get up is to throw away trash or go to the bathroom,'" she said.

    I refer to "unaccompanied" minors because many of these children are traveling with adult guardians who are not recognized as such by authorities, and/or have people they know in America who are waiting and willing to care for them, given the opportunity. Emphasis on "given the opportunity."
    The Associated Press this week interviewed the mother of one 4-year-old girl from Guatemala who crossed the border March 5 with her aunt. Border authorities expelled the aunt and labeled the girl unaccompanied by a parent, placing her in the Donna tent.

    The girl’s parents live in Maryland. Her mother told the AP that she didn’t know their daughter’s whereabouts until Sunday and didn’t speak to her until Monday. According to the mother, the girl was unable to speak in a nearly 20-minute phone call. The AP is not identifying the girl or her mother to protect the child’s privacy.

    Also because while Biden has ceased the practice of deporting unaccompanied minors, the administration has not halted the deportation of families, which means that some parents are making the hard decision to send their children over the border while remaining behind in Mexico for the time being

    Also from the AP article:
    President Joe Biden’s administration denied the lawyers access to the tent facility. During the administration of former President Donald Trump, attorney visits to Border Patrol stations revealed severe problems, including dozens of children held at one rural station without adequate food, water, or soap.

    “It is pretty surprising that the administration talks about the importance of transparency and then won’t let the attorneys for children set eyes on where they’re staying,” said Leecia Welch of the National Center for Youth Law, one of the lawyers. “I find that very disappointing.”

    US Rep Henry Cuellar's office has just released photographs from inside the Donna, Texas facility. Axio was the first to publish them but they have since been carried by most major news outlets and are confirmed as genuine. They match up perfectly with the descriptions given by the children to lawyers. I encourage everyone to look at them before trying to talk about what the conditions inside these places are like.

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  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The condition of the facilities being reported by children interviewed by lawyers should horrify everyone, but not because it's children going through this. I think our focus in the latter pages of the previous thread on discussing what to do with "unaccompanied" minors had us lose sight of the fact that no one, regardless of age, should be being held in these conditions.

    Nobody should be held in those conditions, yes. But that they're willing to put even children in them is horrifying and shows a complete lack of humanity.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The condition of the facilities being reported by children interviewed by lawyers should horrify everyone, but not because it's children going through this. I think our focus in the latter pages of the previous thread on discussing what to do with "unaccompanied" minors had us lose sight of the fact that no one, regardless of age, should be being held in these conditions.

    Nobody should be held in those conditions, yes. But that they're willing to put even children in them is horrifying and shows a complete lack of humanity.

    I will point out that while federal law stipulates they're only supposed to hold children in these facilities for up to 72 hours before being transferred to HHS custody, more than 800 children have been in Border Patrol custody for more than 10 days according to documents obtained by CNN, and they report that the average time in CBP custody for unaccompanied children is around 130 hours.

    I will also point out that while the children moved to HHS custody are ostensibly being held in more humane conditions, we really have no idea what the conditions they are living in are like without the lawyers for these children being allowed access, and there is no reason to give the government the benefit of the doubt on anything involving immigration.

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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Let's be clear, I'm not sure there is even room for the Biden admin to say "we didn't know, it was CBP", at least not without some pretty compelling evidence as to why it was ... well not ok, but.. understandable? I mean, if CBP was essentially being a rogue agency... MAYBE? But even then, it feels like that should have been a much bigger deal.

    I don't see how this isn't forever an indelible black mark on Biden's (and the rest of the American govt's, since this isn't new) record of immigration. I was really hoping for better, but I'm not COMPLETELY surprised.

  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The condition of the facilities being reported by children interviewed by lawyers should horrify everyone, but not because it's children going through this. I think our focus in the latter pages of the previous thread on discussing what to do with "unaccompanied" minors had us lose sight of the fact that no one, regardless of age, should be being held in these conditions.

    Nobody should be held in those conditions, yes. But that they're willing to put even children in them is horrifying and shows a complete lack of humanity.

    I will point out that while federal law stipulates they're only supposed to hold children in these facilities for up to 72 hours before being transferred to HHS custody, more than 800 children have been in Border Patrol custody for more than 10 days according to documents obtained by CNN, and they report that the average time in CBP custody for unaccompanied children is around 130 hours.

    I will also point out that while the children moved to HHS custody are ostensibly being held in more humane conditions, we really have no idea what the conditions they are living in are like without the lawyers for these children being allowed access, and there is no reason to give the government the benefit of the doubt on anything involving immigration.

    The HHS head was confirmed ~5 days ago, so let's go for some housecleaning there. I think the border patrol is more "flamethrower" than house cleaning; there's unconfirmed reports they're deliberately stalling processing people to fuck with the migrants and drive anti immigrant sentiment.

    Incident that "massive surge" the media is all agog about? Doesn't really exist.
    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a35917469/no-border-surge-crisis-joe-biden/
    During fiscal year 2019, under the Trump administration, total apprehensions increased 31 percent during the same period, a bigger jump than we’re seeing now. We’re comparing fiscal year 2021 to 2019 because the pandemic changed the pattern in 2020. In 2018, the increase is about 25 percent from February to March — somewhat smaller but still pronounced.

    (children specifically are apparently up more, but I lost that cite)

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  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    A logistical problem 4+ years in the making not solved in 2 months is hardly a surprise. Looking at the pictures, there is clearly food and water being handed out, mattresses, and mylar blankets(not sure why not normal blankets maybe a bed bugs/lice control thing). They apparently have proper facilities rather than drunk tank style open toilets like earlier.

    ORR is swamped and that is back feeding into these CBP processing facilities and ORR already has something like 10k kids in convention centers and other such temporary facilities.

    There are some paperwork changes being done to speed up the ORR process, but 'go across the US border, get CBP to detain you, and then eventually they'll get you to your uncle in Cleveland' is basically the system at the moment. Until that changes this will always be a clusterfuck.

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The condition of the facilities being reported by children interviewed by lawyers should horrify everyone, but not because it's children going through this. I think our focus in the latter pages of the previous thread on discussing what to do with "unaccompanied" minors had us lose sight of the fact that no one, regardless of age, should be being held in these conditions.

    Nobody should be held in those conditions, yes. But that they're willing to put even children in them is horrifying and shows a complete lack of humanity.

    I will point out that while federal law stipulates they're only supposed to hold children in these facilities for up to 72 hours before being transferred to HHS custody, more than 800 children have been in Border Patrol custody for more than 10 days according to documents obtained by CNN, and they report that the average time in CBP custody for unaccompanied children is around 130 hours.

    I will also point out that while the children moved to HHS custody are ostensibly being held in more humane conditions, we really have no idea what the conditions they are living in are like without the lawyers for these children being allowed access, and there is no reason to give the government the benefit of the doubt on anything involving immigration.

    The HHS head was confirmed ~5 days ago, so let's go for some housecleaning there. I think the border patrol is more "flamethrower" than house cleaning; there's unconfirmed reports they're deliberately stalling processing people to fuck with the migrants and drive anti immigrant sentiment.

    Incident that "massive surge" the media is all agog about? Doesn't really exist.
    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a35917469/no-border-surge-crisis-joe-biden/
    During fiscal year 2019, under the Trump administration, total apprehensions increased 31 percent during the same period, a bigger jump than we’re seeing now. We’re comparing fiscal year 2021 to 2019 because the pandemic changed the pattern in 2020. In 2018, the increase is about 25 percent from February to March — somewhat smaller but still pronounced.

    (children specifically are apparently up more, but I lost that cite)

    This is a Not Okay situation, people need to be fired over this and if the HHS head doesn't go in guns blazing (so to speak)... ugh

    (I mean people should be more than fired over this, but I have no hopes of any actual justice here)

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    It's the lawyer situation that really does it for me. Lack of space, lack of beds, that stuff might, maybe, be excusable due to a lack of resources or whatever. Maybe. Not letting lawyers in to see their clients? Yeah... that's just administrative fuckery and there's no excuse for it.

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  • MillMill Registered User regular
    We'll probably have to wait at least a week, if not more, to see how things work out with the HHS having a proper head. I have to cautioned, none of this shit can be resolved quickly or easily. There is stuff in place to slow things down for better or worse and I'll point out some of those speed bumps did work in our favor on immigration when it was Trump sitting in the WH. Just remember, that probably prevented both him and Miller from being able to implement the cruelest of measures they wanted and slow down what they did get it. Also said things prevented Trump's people from purging the HHS of decent people. All that said, the downside to those hurdles is that now that Trump's racist fuck ass is gone, those do prove to be an impediment for unfucking things. There are probably a handful of people that Trump got in, that can't be easily removed because their jobs aren't at will and if they were even remotely competent, they've probably done all their need to avoid getting fired for cause. Anyways, what I would looking for with the HHS to get any idea of how things are moving.

    -Personnel shuffling, this was one of the things Trump did to fuck with agencies that he couldn't purge. Shunt a bunch of people into the most useless team or project they could, so that his flunkies had more reign on what they wanted to fuck with.
    -Termination of the handful of people that weren't within Biden's range of firing, but at within range of the HHS head to fire on a whim.
    -A hiring push, the hiring freeze is probably what's going to fuck things the most because there are processes, mandated by Congress, that have to be done in order to get certain things done. After what Trump fucking did, I will not be surprised if it proves to be difficult to find new hires; especially, with the fact that his party is still beholden to him. Like I don't fault honest people for not wanting to uproot their lives to go to get these open jobs, when there is a real risk that in 4, 8 or 12 years that they'll get shit canned for BS reasons. Also doesn't help that they could without pay during any year because the GOP decide to throw a tantrum and shut the government down.
    -Rule changes. On this note, I'm disappointed that democrats seem reluctant to use the CRA to kill many of Trump's BS policies that are eligible to be nuked by it.

    Anyways expect to be frustrated because unfortunately, even though the process likely did stymie the last administrations worst impulses. The fact remains, it's far easier to fuck something up into a piss poor state, if not destroy it, than it is to build or unfuck things.

    As I've said before, one of the biggest issues here is that Congress won't act because of republicans. By law the Biden administration has it's hands tied on a number of immigration issues. A big one is that we probably need to burn CBP to the ground and I know some will disagree, but then replace it with something that isn't racist and deals with the legit issues that CBP may or may not be doing and if it is doing those, likely doing a piss poor job. Given that I know someone is going to ask, one such legit function is screening stuff coming over the border and keeping stuff out that will cause issues. For example a thing that is often missed, is this is a good way to prevent invasive species from getting into biomes and fucking things up further than we've already have because not everyone shipping cargo legally realizes that what they want to import in is a problematic plant or animal species or sometimes they don't realize their cargo has been contaminated with such a thing. Unfortunately, this is kind of half-assed because only a fraction of cargo gets checked, got to wonder how much more could be checked if the agency wasn't staffed by so many fucking nazis, that would rather waste resources intimidating minorities.

    Then there is ICE, which just needs to be nuked to the ground, but we'd need Congress to authorize.

    I'll likely withhold judgment on this admin until we're about 6 months in because that seems like about the point where shit should have started moving in a proper direction and if it hasn't then that would be on the administration. Obviously, if they do some really shitty, I can pass judgment sooner. All that said, I do think people need to be less prone to jumping on the Biden administration for some of the fucking awful shit going one and directing that ire at Congress, primarily the republicans, but there are a some democrats that are also well deserving of blame here. I'd say a decent chunk of our issues with immigration comes down to shit that Congress has passed, refused to repeal or outright refused to update. Like of democrats that deserve to get a fair bit of shit over this, Manchin, Sinema and Feingold come to mind because they want to keep the filibuster, which makes it easier for the party of white supremacist shitlords to keep everything in a broken state. Then of course, if you do some digging, yes, you can find each individual that has some really shitty stances on immigration, but right now those three are preventing getting anything done on like the handful of things that could be fixed if the filibuster didn't exist because their is enough support within Congress for them to happen.

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  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    this applies to more than the concentration camps themselves which are entirely indefensible (as is any opinion on them that isn't "let everyone currently imprisoned go and burn them to the ground," in my opinion), the democrats are going to need to figure out a way to get those senators in line so they can do literally anything or they're in serious trouble. "vote for us some more even though we can't get even close the concentration camps because members of our party don't want to" is not a winning message to go into the midterms with, especially when kids in cages was one of the main lines they used last year

    anyway, let everyone currently imprisoned go and burn them to the ground. we've used less severe and less well-verified shit than our concentration camps as pretext for orchestrating coups and murderous sanctions and invasions in other countries, i see no reason to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt

    also for what it's worth, "decompression facility" is maybe the laziest euphemism i've ever heard in my life. can't even call them internment camps like the last time this country imprisoned large numbers of people based on what they look like and where they came from

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited March 24
    On immigration policy, the Biden admin pretty much just said the quiet part outloud: Those vaccines sent to Mexico have a price attached to them:
    The White House is not denying it is sending COVID-19 vaccine doses to Mexico in return for help curbing the flow of migrants from Central America.

    The Biden administration announced earlier this week it will ship 2.5 million doses of AstraZeneca’s coronavirus vaccine to Mexico, along with over 1 million to Canada. That prompted some contentions from Biden critics that the new president is using the inoculations to compel Mexican officials to stop groups of migrants heading to their northern border with the United States.

    White House principal deputy press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre was pressed on whether part of the vaccine deal was a sort of quid pro quo on rounding up groups of Central Americans — which would amount to the Biden administration reviving a Trump administration policy by luring Mexican officials to help ease an influx at the border.

    “So, as you can imagine, when you're, when you're having … conversation with countries, different countries … you're talking about different issues, right,” she told reporters traveling with President Biden to Georgia on Air Force One. “And so that is ... what's happening there, there are just conversations on different issues, and yes [the] pandemic, which is, you know, unprecedented, is part of those conversations that we're having in a parallel way.”

    At another point in her back-and-forth with an NPR reporter, Jean-Pierre said the COVID-19 virus knows “no borders.” That means the U.S. wants to help its neighbors with efforts on “mitigating the infections.”

    She then appeared to link the Mexican vaccine shipments directly to migrant flows, saying it is also key to be “getting help on the Central American migration, getting help from Mexico.”

    "The Wall" is a campaign slogan. Even the Trump admin realized that is easier to just put pressure on Mexico and Guatemala to "deal with the problem".

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  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud friend pelican soft and relaxing mouthRegistered User regular
    I'm willing to give the Biden administration a little leeway given that they inherited Trump's exacerbation of Obama's unaddressed problem. But not long. This is an extreme violation of human rights and needs remedied immediately. I hold all politicians culpable regardless of party until it is resolved.

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    I'm willing to give the Biden administration a little leeway given that they inherited Trump's exacerbation of Obama's unaddressed problem. But not long. This is an extreme violation of human rights and needs remedied immediately. I hold all politicians culpable regardless of party until it is resolved.

    I think whoever came into office would have been faced with this exact problem and would also be almost starting from scratch since the Trump admin did everything they could to make this as bad as possible.

    Things need to move fast, but I do think Biden is truly trying to fix this and treat these refugees as humanely and safely as possible.

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  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    I'm willing to give the Biden administration a little leeway given that they inherited Trump's exacerbation of Obama's unaddressed problem. But not long. This is an extreme violation of human rights and needs remedied immediately. I hold all politicians culpable regardless of party until it is resolved.

    I think whoever came into office would have been faced with this exact problem and would also be almost starting from scratch since the Trump admin did everything they could to make this as bad as possible.

    Things need to move fast, but I do think Biden is truly trying to fix this and treat these refugees as humanely and safely as possible.

    It's not just that Trump dismantled and intentionally sabotaged anything the Biden administration needed to possibly manage this situation. The CBP / INS continue to undermine and sabotage the Biden administration while the GOP obstructs everything in the senate (HHS was only confirmed what, last week?) and Republican border states actively undermine any efforts by the Biden administration.

    Hopefully this will get resolved soon, and I expect nothing less than heroic effort by Biden and his administration to correct this mess, but this disaster was engineered by Trump and Miller and to some degree unavoidable.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited March 24
    Miller isnt responsible for the Biden administration keeping out lawyers. If purges don't occur soon CBP or whoever undermining the administration loses its power to excuse.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Purges don't magically fix the problem either. Going from bad staff to no staff doesn't make things go faster. And takes time in and of itself

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  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    this applies to more than the concentration camps themselves which are entirely indefensible (as is any opinion on them that isn't "let everyone currently imprisoned go and burn them to the ground," in my opinion), the democrats are going to need to figure out a way to get those senators in line so they can do literally anything or they're in serious trouble. "vote for us some more even though we can't get even close the concentration camps because members of our party don't want to" is not a winning message to go into the midterms with, especially when kids in cages was one of the main lines they used last year

    anyway, let everyone currently imprisoned go and burn them to the ground.

    Go where? Okay 11 year old girl, you are free to go....

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    You'd think at the very least we could get them some of those damn cots everyone was talking about when we had pictures of National Guardsmen dozing on the floor of the capitol.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    You'd think at the very least we could get them some of those damn cots everyone was talking about when we had pictures of National Guardsmen dozing on the floor of the capitol.

    I would think between the army and FEMA and such we should be able to set up decent living conditions in short order. Or could, except that probably requires an act of congress for money.

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  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    this applies to more than the concentration camps themselves which are entirely indefensible (as is any opinion on them that isn't "let everyone currently imprisoned go and burn them to the ground," in my opinion), the democrats are going to need to figure out a way to get those senators in line so they can do literally anything or they're in serious trouble. "vote for us some more even though we can't get even close the concentration camps because members of our party don't want to" is not a winning message to go into the midterms with, especially when kids in cages was one of the main lines they used last year

    anyway, let everyone currently imprisoned go and burn them to the ground.

    Go where? Okay 11 year old girl, you are free to go....

    this is a really bad justification for not only keeping concentration camps open but expanding their size and use, and being that i'm not trying to defend such it isn't really on me to figure out what to do instead

    in any case almost all of the children in the concentration camps were going to a particular place (usually family) before they got kidnapped by immigration agents. a lot of them were also with their parents before they got separated! "go where" is a problem that was almost entirely caused by the camps' existence in the first place

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    this applies to more than the concentration camps themselves which are entirely indefensible (as is any opinion on them that isn't "let everyone currently imprisoned go and burn them to the ground," in my opinion), the democrats are going to need to figure out a way to get those senators in line so they can do literally anything or they're in serious trouble. "vote for us some more even though we can't get even close the concentration camps because members of our party don't want to" is not a winning message to go into the midterms with, especially when kids in cages was one of the main lines they used last year

    anyway, let everyone currently imprisoned go and burn them to the ground.

    Go where? Okay 11 year old girl, you are free to go....

    this is a really bad justification for not only keeping concentration camps open but expanding their size and use, and being that i'm not trying to defend such it isn't really on me to figure out what to do instead

    in any case almost all of the children in the concentration camps were going to a particular place (usually family) before they got kidnapped by immigration agents. a lot of them were also with their parents before they got separated! "go where" is a problem that was almost entirely caused by the camps' existence in the first place

    It’s not, it’s the reality of the situation. Many of these children arrived without a parent, simply “letting them go” isn’t a solution because while they may have family here, they might live several states away. It takes time to locate family and make sure these migrants will be going to a safe place here in the US.

    They were not “kidnapped” by border agents. Come on, framing things this way isn’t helpful to discussion. Refugees are not being separated from their parents if they arrive as a family.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    I dont think 11 year old with literally nowhere to go accurately describes your average individual here.

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited March 24
    The vast majority of these children and teenagers arrive at the United States with the address and the phone number of a sibling, relative, or a family friend they intend to stay with. And that's where they're going to end up, if/when they're let out of detention. The reason they're being held is that this was a policy started by Donald Trump to discourage immigration through mistreatment. If this policy is good, and Biden intended to continue it, then Biden at no point made it clear he intended to continue this policy, just the opposite.

    What he's doing is inexcusable.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    One factor that is important to consider is not just the moral (which is clearly in the favor of the refugees) but the tendency of centrist voters to be wildly xenophobic even if they are economically quite left-wing. If they perceive Biden as opening the floodgates for foreigners to come in, they will vote Republican.

    As far as I can tell, this is behind the wild swing to the right that most Western countries have taken recently. Climate change -> leads to unrest in the third world -> leads to refugees -> leads to racism in host countries -> leads to right-wing nutjobs getting elected on a platform of "foreigners out."

    It's not nice, and I'm sure I'm going to get yelled at, but it's a nasty tendency I've noticed in recent years.

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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    I believe it was on one of the Crooked Media pods where they talked about how these kids do indeed show up with a name/phone number/address or some combination thereof, but that the people who are to receive the kids are still vetted to make sure it's safe to hand them over to their care. Apparently there were some scandals in years past where it was taken on more of the honour system and some kids ended up in unfit homes, or the recipient was actually a trafficker or something like that? I'd have to go looking for the exact quote, but the main thrust of the point was that it takes time and personnel to do.

    Is falling short on due diligence better than being held in those conditions? I honestly don't know.

    The pod also explicitly called out the time limit they're supposed to be on, and how it was being exceeded. I'm empathetic to a situation brought on by an uptick in arrivals while needing to rebuild the system and possibly clean house (which then necessitates more rebuilding).

    Not to predict the future, but if they don't vet the homes and people being brought in/retained to do the work, I imagine at least some of the outrage about the speed of this situation would be replaced with outrage that they didn't take more time to do it right, especially with the GOP obstructing and presumably a bunch of assholes in the system slow rolling and digging in their heels.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    One factor that is important to consider is not just the moral (which is clearly in the favor of the refugees) but the tendency of centrist voters to be wildly xenophobic even if they are economically quite left-wing. If they perceive Biden as opening the floodgates for foreigners to come in, they will vote Republican.

    As far as I can tell, this is behind the wild swing to the right that most Western countries have taken recently. Climate change -> leads to unrest in the third world -> leads to refugees -> leads to racism in host countries -> leads to right-wing nutjobs getting elected on a platform of "foreigners out."

    It's not nice, and I'm sure I'm going to get yelled at, but it's a nasty tendency I've noticed in recent years.

    I'm not sure what we're supposed to do with this. Are you arguing that Biden has to keep kids in plastic boxes on concrete floors because voters? Because thats not true.

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  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    edited March 24
    Elki wrote: »
    The vast majority of these children and teenagers arrive at the United States with the address and the phone number of a sibling, relative, or a family friend they intend to stay with. And that's where they're going to end up, if/when they're let out of detention. The reason they're being held is that this was a policy started by Donald Trump to discourage immigration through mistreatment. If this policy is good, and Biden intended to continue it, then Biden at no point made it clear he intended to continue this policy, just the opposite.

    What he's doing is inexcusable.

    Even if we accept that the majority of these kids do have the name / address / phone number of a person who they intend to stay with, that doesn't immediately solve the issue. The government still needs to contact those people here in the US, determine if they are willing to take the kids and capable of providing a safe / stable environment, arrange transportation for the kids and setup monitoring to ensure the kids are properly tracked and cared for. All of which takes time and manpower that it sounds like simply isn't there.

    In the best case - a good safe home nearby that is responsive to government contact and willing to accept the kid - you're still talking about significant effort to validate and verify all of that in a system that is utterly overwhelmed in addition to being maliciously gutted by Trump the past four years.

    I certainly extend the CBP / ICE people no goodwill or assume good faith in this by any measure. But sometimes shit is just overwhelming. But I damn well expect the Biden administration to pull out all stops to get this resolved pronto.

    Edit - I also wonder how many of those name / address / phone number are for citizens / permanent residents and how many are people who are going to be especially wary and try to avoid any CBP / ICE / HHS contact making it even harder to validate and release the kids into their care.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Id expect real reform from an administration that wasnt blocking lawyers.

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  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    The vast majority of these children and teenagers arrive at the United States with the address and the phone number of a sibling, relative, or a family friend they intend to stay with. And that's where they're going to end up, if/when they're let out of detention. The reason they're being held is that this was a policy started by Donald Trump to discourage immigration through mistreatment. If this policy is good, and Biden intended to continue it, then Biden at no point made it clear he intended to continue this policy, just the opposite.

    What he's doing is inexcusable.

    Even if we accept that the majority of these kids do have the name / address / phone number of a person who they intend to stay with, that doesn't immediately solve the issue. The government still needs to contact those people here in the US, determine if they are willing to take the kids and capable of providing a safe / stable environment, arrange transportation for the kids and setup monitoring to ensure the kids are properly tracked and cared for. All of which takes time and manpower that it sounds like simply isn't there.

    In the best case - a good safe home nearby that is responsive to government contact and willing to accept the kid - you're still talking about significant effort to validate and verify all of that in a system that is utterly overwhelmed in addition to being maliciously gutted by Trump the past four years.

    I certainly extend the CBP / INS people no goodwill or assume good faith in this by any measure. But sometimes shit is just overwhelming. But I damn well expect the Biden administration to pull out all stops to get this resolved pronto.

    The contact, tracking, and vetting is actually HHS not CBP/INS when it comes to unaccompanied minors. Again though limited manpower, moving large amount of kids during a pandemic, transportation, health screenings, providing care for those who are sick or injured.

    Intake of kids who made a thousand plus mile journey through unfriendly terrain is a costly, manpower intensive, and hard process and the resources and systems to do it have been underfunded, gutted, and/or had resources redirected under last administration for 4 years and do take years to rebuild and change and shift. And there will be a lot of terrible things. But at the same time the Biden admin is activating FEMA to increase safe places for the kids. As pointed out they are putting them where they can but there are only so many locations.

    And government hiring is slow. Even if they have the money it will take months to hire, train, and put more boots on the ground to process and care for the kids in a safe verified way. You want to make sure the people taking care of the kids as we find out where they are going are vetted and trained to work with children and young adults who have experienced trauma. It isn't just a job you can throw anyone into.

    It isn't an excuse, but it is a reality.

    And at the same time the Biden admin is setting up systems to let kids apply where they are to help them skip the dangerous journey through Central America and Mexico and make it a safer system to help bring them in as refugees and avoid this entire issue. But that is taking months at minimum to establish and many of these kids would have started their journey months ago.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    One factor that is important to consider is not just the moral (which is clearly in the favor of the refugees) but the tendency of centrist voters to be wildly xenophobic even if they are economically quite left-wing. If they perceive Biden as opening the floodgates for foreigners to come in, they will vote Republican.

    As far as I can tell, this is behind the wild swing to the right that most Western countries have taken recently. Climate change -> leads to unrest in the third world -> leads to refugees -> leads to racism in host countries -> leads to right-wing nutjobs getting elected on a platform of "foreigners out."

    It's not nice, and I'm sure I'm going to get yelled at, but it's a nasty tendency I've noticed in recent years.

    I'm not sure what we're supposed to do with this. Are you arguing that Biden has to keep kids in plastic boxes on concrete floors because voters? Because thats not true.

    I'm not driving at that. I'm as distressed as anyone at the plight of the children. But I'm also very concerned about the rise of the racist right. People are presenting this as just as simple as "Biden needs to free the children" but life is always more complicated than that.

    The morally correct thing to do would be for us to allow unlimited refugees from the broken and poor countries to our south (and elsewhere) but that would lead to a fascist government for sure. A lot of people are xenophobic and scared: even people from immigrant families themselves.

    OrcaCalica
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    One factor that is important to consider is not just the moral (which is clearly in the favor of the refugees) but the tendency of centrist voters to be wildly xenophobic even if they are economically quite left-wing. If they perceive Biden as opening the floodgates for foreigners to come in, they will vote Republican.

    As far as I can tell, this is behind the wild swing to the right that most Western countries have taken recently. Climate change -> leads to unrest in the third world -> leads to refugees -> leads to racism in host countries -> leads to right-wing nutjobs getting elected on a platform of "foreigners out."

    It's not nice, and I'm sure I'm going to get yelled at, but it's a nasty tendency I've noticed in recent years.

    I'm not sure what we're supposed to do with this. Are you arguing that Biden has to keep kids in plastic boxes on concrete floors because voters? Because thats not true.

    I'm not driving at that. I'm as distressed as anyone at the plight of the children. But I'm also very concerned about the rise of the racist right. People are presenting this as just as simple as "Biden needs to free the children" but life is always more complicated than that.

    The morally correct thing to do would be for us to allow unlimited refugees from the broken and poor countries to our south (and elsewhere) but that would lead to a fascist government for sure. A lot of people are xenophobic and scared: even people from immigrant families themselves.

    Doing a little fascism to stave off more fascism?

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
    YamiB.
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Id expect real reform from an administration that wasnt blocking lawyers.

    Any real reform needs to come from Congress not the Biden Administration. Anything Biden does is just temporarily spackling over the giant holes Trump punched in the walls (in a house that was already collapsing).

    Also, the story about 'blocking lawyers' was from before HHS was confirmed, and only said they weren't able (no details on if it was a refusal or simply / other constraints) able to interview all the children and CBP denied a tour of the facility. Not going to extend CBP benefit of the doubt, but that's already a huge step past what Trump admin did.

  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Yeah, you don't win the argument about "hordes of migrants will overrun the us" by agreeing with them and keeping the borders closed. You win the argument by proving that to be false fear mongering.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Again, I want to stress that while being concerned about the children is all well and good, we should not forget about the adults who are being held in these conditions as well, and unlike the children, they don't get to be moved to "more humane conditions" after an average of 130 hours.

    Folks who are 18 and older are being held in these places for years. That's unconscionable even before factoring in that we're in the middle of a pandemic.

    As the LA Times reported, a detainee who had been in custody since April 2019 was released - without his lawyer being informed - because he was so sick with COVID that he died 3 days later, and ICE dumped him so that they wouldn't have a COVID death on their books. This man had been living in the United States for over 50 years. He should not have been arrested and held in the first place.

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