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U.S Immigration

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Posts

  • HenroidHenroid Affiliate Streamer Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    kime token gestures are the easiest taken away or reversed measures. Look at what happened with DACA. I don't know how else to explain this to you. Yes, DACA is back or whatever, but it doesn't mean immigration is saved and it doesn't mean the issue shouldn't be handled with criticism. If it weren't, politicians would be signaled to that people aren't interested in further change on the matter.

    This is why we fight hard for bigger changes all the time. Because white and/or middle class America decides something and those who have to live with things don't get heard, let alone helped on the matter.

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  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    The fact that we can even compare Biden to Trump feels like a complete failure on the Biden administrations part.

    That's why all of this is unacceptable for me, we're so far down this rabbit hole.
    To put it in Forar's terms Obama was not at a 6, he was at a 2. Trump was a -10 and Biden seems to be at a -5 currently.

    Like, how is Biden doing compared to Reagan or Nixon?

    I dunno, we were just talking the other day about how - in spite of **all this** the US still manages to consistently rank near the top of all countries for immigration. Top ten by almost any metric or survey, usually near the top five.

    So while it's an easy argument that immigration is fucked every way to Sunday everywhere, it's silly trying to rank on some -10 to 10 scale when there is literally no real world example that would rank higher than a 2 or 3 by your scale.

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    No here one is happy with the state of affairs, but if you don't want to be picked apart for making false statements then perhaps you should consider not doing that?

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  • HenroidHenroid Affiliate Streamer Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Better Than Trump is not really a metric I give a shit about

    That’s fine, people are allowed to feel differently and express that.
    The thrust of Styrofoam's post is that "Better Than Trump™" is so catastrophically low that nobody should be patting themselves on the back for having cleared it. One may as well congratulate themself for not calling a person of color a slur today, while they otherwise ignore the plight of those people in this country.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    The fact that we can even compare Biden to Trump feels like a complete failure on the Biden administrations part.

    That's why all of this is unacceptable for me, we're so far down this rabbit hole.
    To put it in Forar's terms Obama was not at a 6, he was at a 2. Trump was a -10 and Biden seems to be at a -5 currently.

    Like, how is Biden doing compared to Reagan or Nixon?

    I dunno, we were just talking the other day about how - in spite of **all this** the US still manages to consistently rank near the top of all countries for immigration. Top ten by almost any metric or survey, usually near the top five.

    So while it's an easy argument that immigration is fucked every way to Sunday everywhere, it's silly trying to rank on some -10 to 10 scale when there is literally no real world example that would rank higher than a 2 or 3 by your scale.

    The metric provided was self reporting on how ok with living near immigrants you are.

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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    The fact that we can even compare Biden to Trump feels like a complete failure on the Biden administrations part.

    That's why all of this is unacceptable for me, we're so far down this rabbit hole.
    To put it in Forar's terms Obama was not at a 6, he was at a 2. Trump was a -10 and Biden seems to be at a -5 currently.

    Like, how is Biden doing compared to Reagan or Nixon?

    I dunno, we were just talking the other day about how - in spite of **all this** the US still manages to consistently rank near the top of all countries for immigration. Top ten by almost any metric or survey, usually near the top five.

    So while it's an easy argument that immigration is fucked every way to Sunday everywhere, it's silly trying to rank on some -10 to 10 scale when there is literally no real world example that would rank higher than a 2 or 3 by your scale.

    You aren't making the argument you think you are making. The fact that most places are garbage about immigration doesn't make the US better by comparison.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    To be frank, if Biden and the democrats truly earn a stamp of approval and not just begrudging acceptance I'll be blown away. I don't think Obama 2.0 could pull off that much. Americans and especially the people who use media to manipulate Americans would turn on anyone actually going far enough to satisfy.

  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    The fact that we can even compare Biden to Trump feels like a complete failure on the Biden administrations part.

    That's why all of this is unacceptable for me, we're so far down this rabbit hole.
    To put it in Forar's terms Obama was not at a 6, he was at a 2. Trump was a -10 and Biden seems to be at a -5 currently.

    Like, how is Biden doing compared to Reagan or Nixon?

    I dunno, we were just talking the other day about how - in spite of **all this** the US still manages to consistently rank near the top of all countries for immigration. Top ten by almost any metric or survey, usually near the top five.

    So while it's an easy argument that immigration is fucked every way to Sunday everywhere, it's silly trying to rank on some -10 to 10 scale when there is literally no real world example that would rank higher than a 2 or 3 by your scale.

    Except for America was better at this, even 30-40 years ago we were much better by that same metric. Probably a 4, maybe a 5.

    Comparing the Biden administration to the Trump administration is the continued normalization of 20+ years of Overton shift

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  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    The fact that we can even compare Biden to Trump feels like a complete failure on the Biden administrations part.

    That's why all of this is unacceptable for me, we're so far down this rabbit hole.
    To put it in Forar's terms Obama was not at a 6, he was at a 2. Trump was a -10 and Biden seems to be at a -5 currently.

    Like, how is Biden doing compared to Reagan or Nixon?

    I dunno, we were just talking the other day about how - in spite of **all this** the US still manages to consistently rank near the top of all countries for immigration. Top ten by almost any metric or survey, usually near the top five.

    So while it's an easy argument that immigration is fucked every way to Sunday everywhere, it's silly trying to rank on some -10 to 10 scale when there is literally no real world example that would rank higher than a 2 or 3 by your scale.

    The metric provided was self reporting on how ok with living near immigrants you are.

    This has been studied by more than one internet poll.

    And the US is consistently rated among the best in the world.

    Now granted, lots of those figures are like US healthcare where our hospitals are the best in the world (if you have good insurance) and are take two aspirin and die in a gutter, that'll be $25,000 (if you don't).

  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    To be frank, if Biden and the democrats truly earn a stamp of approval and not just begrudging acceptance I'll be blown away. I don't think Obama 2.0 could pull off that much. Americans and especially the people who use media to manipulate Americans would turn on anyone actually going far enough to satisfy.

    I've said this upthread, and I'll say it again. If Biden really were out to improve immigration, he and the Dems could actually put out the messaging, and Biden right now controls the biggest bully pulpit probably in the world. Use the damn thing.

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  • HenroidHenroid Affiliate Streamer Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    To be frank, if Biden and the democrats truly earn a stamp of approval and not just begrudging acceptance I'll be blown away. I don't think Obama 2.0 could pull off that much. Americans and especially the people who use media to manipulate Americans would turn on anyone actually going far enough to satisfy.
    Y'all know me to be a fair person. The day Biden actually succeeds at something to the benefit of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans I will be in here going "fuck yeah."

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    The fact that we can even compare Biden to Trump feels like a complete failure on the Biden administrations part.

    That's why all of this is unacceptable for me, we're so far down this rabbit hole.
    To put it in Forar's terms Obama was not at a 6, he was at a 2. Trump was a -10 and Biden seems to be at a -5 currently.

    Like, how is Biden doing compared to Reagan or Nixon?

    I dunno, we were just talking the other day about how - in spite of **all this** the US still manages to consistently rank near the top of all countries for immigration. Top ten by almost any metric or survey, usually near the top five.

    So while it's an easy argument that immigration is fucked every way to Sunday everywhere, it's silly trying to rank on some -10 to 10 scale when there is literally no real world example that would rank higher than a 2 or 3 by your scale.

    Except for America was better at this, even 30-40 years ago we were much better by that same metric. Probably a 4, maybe a 5.

    Comparing the Biden administration to the Trump administration is the continued normalization of 20+ years of Overton shift

    No, we weren't - Harvest of Shame, Murrow's documentary on the atrocious bracero program, was from 1960, for one notable point. The US has never been good about immigration.

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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    The fact that we can even compare Biden to Trump feels like a complete failure on the Biden administrations part.

    That's why all of this is unacceptable for me, we're so far down this rabbit hole.
    To put it in Forar's terms Obama was not at a 6, he was at a 2. Trump was a -10 and Biden seems to be at a -5 currently.

    Like, how is Biden doing compared to Reagan or Nixon?

    I dunno, we were just talking the other day about how - in spite of **all this** the US still manages to consistently rank near the top of all countries for immigration. Top ten by almost any metric or survey, usually near the top five.

    So while it's an easy argument that immigration is fucked every way to Sunday everywhere, it's silly trying to rank on some -10 to 10 scale when there is literally no real world example that would rank higher than a 2 or 3 by your scale.

    The metric provided was self reporting on how ok with living near immigrants you are.

    This has been studied by more than one internet poll.

    And the US is consistently rated among the best in the world.

    Now granted, lots of those figures are like US healthcare where our hospitals are the best in the world (if you have good insurance) and are take two aspirin and die in a gutter, that'll be $25,000 (if you don't).

    Sorry, wait. You are using internet polls to back up your arguments? I mean, that's a thing you can do....

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited April 8
    Doodmann wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    The fact that we can even compare Biden to Trump feels like a complete failure on the Biden administrations part.

    That's why all of this is unacceptable for me, we're so far down this rabbit hole.
    To put it in Forar's terms Obama was not at a 6, he was at a 2. Trump was a -10 and Biden seems to be at a -5 currently.

    Like, how is Biden doing compared to Reagan or Nixon?

    I dunno, we were just talking the other day about how - in spite of **all this** the US still manages to consistently rank near the top of all countries for immigration. Top ten by almost any metric or survey, usually near the top five.

    So while it's an easy argument that immigration is fucked every way to Sunday everywhere, it's silly trying to rank on some -10 to 10 scale when there is literally no real world example that would rank higher than a 2 or 3 by your scale.

    Except for America was better at this, even 30-40 years ago we were much better by that same metric. Probably a 4, maybe a 5.

    Comparing the Biden administration to the Trump administration is the continued normalization of 20+ years of Overton shift

    No, we weren't - Harvest of Shame, Murrow's documentary on the atrocious bracero program, was from 1960, for one notable point. The US has never been good about immigration.

    America has a lot of propaganda about how we love immigrants because we wanted them to come over and die in our factories. Everyone except the white straight cismale Protestant Christian land owners have had to fight for every inch of fairness since the country was founded.

    Incenjucar on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    "We cannot acknowledge progress because there is still work to be done" is a toxic narrative btw



    EDIT: Before anyone tries to reply with "he was talking about the civil rights movement," we all know the original context. I am posting it because what is said is directly applicable to this discussion about immigration policy and the reformation of it. Biden has arguably not even acknowledged the knife in the back, except maybe implying that Trump put it there. But that is not the case, it was buried there a long time before Trump.

    It remains a counter-productive toxic narrative and is propaganda rather than fact regardless of who also used the same propaganda tool. Nuance doesn't make for a great rallying cry but this isn't a rally.

    Incremental progess, however insufficient, is still factually progress, just as getting the knife away from your more vital organs is progress, even if it's not nearly enough to make it okay.

    Is Biden doing enough, fast enough? No. Is Biden exactly the same or as bad as Trump? No. Constantly, desperately, and exhaustively trying to convince people to ignore this admittedly dull fact just distracts from the issue because now you've got to filter out the rhetoric every three posts to talk about the actual situation.

    Biden is being goddamn slow with his fixes, is not being loud enough about accelerating them, has provided suspiciously little transparency, and has given himself a timeline that is long enough to allow him to fail without media attention, all suggesting that this isn't a major priority of his. There is a chance that this indicates that he doesn't plan to change things as much as his propaganda suggested. This is all true or at least not counter-factual given the evidence. We don't need to BS each other to talk about Biden's half-assery on this.

    Basically all the political organizers I hear talking about getting people involved and out to help and vote speak about how negativity is bad politics too. There is just no real conceivable gain to refusing to acknowledge gains you've made.

    As for Biden's slowness on this stuff, it depends how you look at the situation. As I mentioned already, Biden dropped an immigration bill proposal the first day he was in office. Along with several executive orders on the matter. But most of their time in office has been consumed with COVID relief and now his primary infrastructure agenda. Because those things, especially the first, are the most important things happening right now and the things people care about the most. The truth is that immigration is just not a big concern right now and to the extent that it is a political concern it's mostly been a "crisis on the border, waves of filthy non-americans washing up on our shores, etc" narrative manufactured by republicans and laundered by the idiot media. Because they don't want to talk about popular legislation they are going to vote against.

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  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    We've been promised incremental progress for decades and have shit to show for it. And we're being assured that "this time it will be different," just as we were promised with Obama. See how cyclical this is becoming?

    So trying to reinforce the narrative of "but progress is being made" doesn't actually help the situation. The only thing it helps is white people from feeling guilty.

    That's because a lot of what you call "progress" is stuff the majority of the country doesn't desire.

    If your benchmark for progress is essentially the dissolution of the border. Yeah we will never make sufficient progress for you.

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  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    The fact that we can even compare Biden to Trump feels like a complete failure on the Biden administrations part.

    That's why all of this is unacceptable for me, we're so far down this rabbit hole.
    To put it in Forar's terms Obama was not at a 6, he was at a 2. Trump was a -10 and Biden seems to be at a -5 currently.

    Like, how is Biden doing compared to Reagan or Nixon?

    I dunno, we were just talking the other day about how - in spite of **all this** the US still manages to consistently rank near the top of all countries for immigration. Top ten by almost any metric or survey, usually near the top five.

    So while it's an easy argument that immigration is fucked every way to Sunday everywhere, it's silly trying to rank on some -10 to 10 scale when there is literally no real world example that would rank higher than a 2 or 3 by your scale.

    The metric provided was self reporting on how ok with living near immigrants you are.

    This has been studied by more than one internet poll.

    And the US is consistently rated among the best in the world.

    Now granted, lots of those figures are like US healthcare where our hospitals are the best in the world (if you have good insurance) and are take two aspirin and die in a gutter, that'll be $25,000 (if you don't).

    Sorry, wait. You are using internet polls to back up your arguments? I mean, that's a thing you can do....

    No, Sammich tried to dismiss my point by saying it was a single metric and I explained that they are incorrect because this isn't a single cherry-picked internet poll.

    There is a body of work that shows the US is consistently one of the best nations for immigrants, to immigrate to, and when rating how progressive or diverse the US system is vs. the rest of the world. Along with things like number of refugees / asylum seekers accepted, etc.

    Also the idea that the US used to be great on immigration kinda ignores that in 1954 there was literally 'Operation <slur for Mexicans>' that far exceeded anything Trump tried to do - literally rounding up Mexican Americans at gunpoint, packing them into trucks, and deporting them with no due process whatsoever. Or a million other examples that the US and everywhere else have kinda mostly always sucked on immigration.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    The fact that we can even compare Biden to Trump feels like a complete failure on the Biden administrations part.

    That's why all of this is unacceptable for me, we're so far down this rabbit hole.
    To put it in Forar's terms Obama was not at a 6, he was at a 2. Trump was a -10 and Biden seems to be at a -5 currently.

    Like, how is Biden doing compared to Reagan or Nixon?

    I dunno, we were just talking the other day about how - in spite of **all this** the US still manages to consistently rank near the top of all countries for immigration. Top ten by almost any metric or survey, usually near the top five.

    So while it's an easy argument that immigration is fucked every way to Sunday everywhere, it's silly trying to rank on some -10 to 10 scale when there is literally no real world example that would rank higher than a 2 or 3 by your scale.

    Except for America was better at this, even 30-40 years ago we were much better by that same metric. Probably a 4, maybe a 5.

    Comparing the Biden administration to the Trump administration is the continued normalization of 20+ years of Overton shift

    No, we weren't - Harvest of Shame, Murrow's documentary on the atrocious bracero program, was from 1960, for one notable point. The US has never been good about immigration.

    America has a lot of propaganda about how we love immigrants because we wanted them to come over and die in our factories. Everyone except the white straight cismale Protestant Christian land owners have had to fight for every inch of fairness since the country was founded.

    It is both true (and not uniquely american either) that america has always been shit to immigrants and also that america has always been good for immigrants. In that people have wanted to immigrate to the US for a reason. And still do.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    We've been promised incremental progress for decades and have shit to show for it. And we're being assured that "this time it will be different," just as we were promised with Obama. See how cyclical this is becoming?

    So trying to reinforce the narrative of "but progress is being made" doesn't actually help the situation. The only thing it helps is white people from feeling guilty.

    That's because a lot of what you call "progress" is stuff the majority of the country doesn't desire.

    If your benchmark for progress is essentially the dissolution of the border. Yeah we will never make sufficient progress for you.

    We're still locking immigrants in boxes, so idk maybe another round of "you just want open borders" is kind of silly. Henroid is an exceptionally reasonable person.

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    To be frank, if Biden and the democrats truly earn a stamp of approval and not just begrudging acceptance I'll be blown away. I don't think Obama 2.0 could pull off that much. Americans and especially the people who use media to manipulate Americans would turn on anyone actually going far enough to satisfy.
    Y'all know me to be a fair person. The day Biden actually succeeds at something to the benefit of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans I will be in here going "fuck yeah."

    With respect, I don't believe that. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's nothing you need to prove to anyone (it's your own opinion after all), but.... yeah, sorry.
    Henroid wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Better Than Trump is not really a metric I give a shit about

    That’s fine, people are allowed to feel differently and express that.
    The thrust of Styrofoam's post is that "Better Than Trump™" is so catastrophically low that nobody should be patting themselves on the back for having cleared it. One may as well congratulate themself for not calling a person of color a slur today, while they otherwise ignore the plight of those people in this country.

    No one's patting themselves on the back, just recognizing reality so that we can continue to discuss what to do moving forward.

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  • HenroidHenroid Affiliate Streamer Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    We've been promised incremental progress for decades and have shit to show for it. And we're being assured that "this time it will be different," just as we were promised with Obama. See how cyclical this is becoming?

    So trying to reinforce the narrative of "but progress is being made" doesn't actually help the situation. The only thing it helps is white people from feeling guilty.

    That's because a lot of what you call "progress" is stuff the majority of the country doesn't desire.

    If your benchmark for progress is essentially the dissolution of the border. Yeah we will never make sufficient progress for you.
    It's refreshing that someone is just bluntly saying they're in favor of all this shit, in a way.

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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    I was talking about border and immigration policy, not about immigrant (or otherwise) labor struggles throughout the 20th century.

    In a way you're arguing "immigration is better now that it's mostly been criminalized than it was back those damned immigrants kept unionizing"

    But clearly we're of wildly different perspective and have different long term goals.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    We've been promised incremental progress for decades and have shit to show for it. And we're being assured that "this time it will be different," just as we were promised with Obama. See how cyclical this is becoming?

    So trying to reinforce the narrative of "but progress is being made" doesn't actually help the situation. The only thing it helps is white people from feeling guilty.

    That's because a lot of what you call "progress" is stuff the majority of the country doesn't desire.

    If your benchmark for progress is essentially the dissolution of the border. Yeah we will never make sufficient progress for you.
    It's refreshing that someone is just bluntly saying they're in favor of all this shit, in a way.

    That's a pretty unreasonable and unfair take.

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  • R-demR-dem Registered User regular
    Okay, I'm the first to admit that my personal immigration policy being "Bienvenidos!" is a big minority opinion outside of specific circles, and yeah I doubt any American administration is going to go far enough in supporting immigrants to make me happy, but Biden could have done a lot more than a few lip service measures and appointing Harris to "look into" the border two weeks ago with nary a word since.

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  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    The fact that we can even compare Biden to Trump feels like a complete failure on the Biden administrations part.

    That's why all of this is unacceptable for me, we're so far down this rabbit hole.
    To put it in Forar's terms Obama was not at a 6, he was at a 2. Trump was a -10 and Biden seems to be at a -5 currently.

    Like, how is Biden doing compared to Reagan or Nixon?

    I dunno, we were just talking the other day about how - in spite of **all this** the US still manages to consistently rank near the top of all countries for immigration. Top ten by almost any metric or survey, usually near the top five.

    So while it's an easy argument that immigration is fucked every way to Sunday everywhere, it's silly trying to rank on some -10 to 10 scale when there is literally no real world example that would rank higher than a 2 or 3 by your scale.

    Except for America was better at this, even 30-40 years ago we were much better by that same metric. Probably a 4, maybe a 5.

    Comparing the Biden administration to the Trump administration is the continued normalization of 20+ years of Overton shift
    Yogi Berra wrote:
    No one goes there anymore. It's too crowded

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/20/key-findings-about-u-s-immigrants/

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  • HenroidHenroid Affiliate Streamer Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Henroid is an exceptionally reasonable person.
    Look I'll press F to doubt on this one, I'm just having a better day than usual when talking about all this.
    kime wrote: »
    No one's patting themselves on the back-
    The Biden Administration is. Hence me going "what the fuck" all up and down on this thread.

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  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    edited April 8
    Henroid wrote: »
    We've been promised incremental progress for decades and have shit to show for it. And we're being assured that "this time it will be different," just as we were promised with Obama. See how cyclical this is becoming?

    So trying to reinforce the narrative of "but progress is being made" doesn't actually help the situation. The only thing it helps is white people from feeling guilty.

    That's because a lot of what you call "progress" is stuff the majority of the country doesn't desire.

    If your benchmark for progress is essentially the dissolution of the border. Yeah we will never make sufficient progress for you.

    I mean I'm fine with having open borders as a utopian goal, I mostly support it as an ideal goal.

    That being a goal doesn't mean that anything less is an abject failure and only worthy of derision.

    zagdrob on
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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    We've been promised incremental progress for decades and have shit to show for it. And we're being assured that "this time it will be different," just as we were promised with Obama. See how cyclical this is becoming?

    So trying to reinforce the narrative of "but progress is being made" doesn't actually help the situation. The only thing it helps is white people from feeling guilty.

    That's because a lot of what you call "progress" is stuff the majority of the country doesn't desire.

    If your benchmark for progress is essentially the dissolution of the border. Yeah we will never make sufficient progress for you.

    I mean I'm fine with having open borders as a utopian goal, I mostly support it as an ideal goal.

    That being a goal doesn't mean that anything less is an abject failure and only worthy of derision.

    Do you guys actually think we're upset Biden hasnt dissolved the borders?

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  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    edited April 8
    .

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  • HenroidHenroid Affiliate Streamer Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    The fact that we can even compare Biden to Trump feels like a complete failure on the Biden administrations part.

    That's why all of this is unacceptable for me, we're so far down this rabbit hole.
    To put it in Forar's terms Obama was not at a 6, he was at a 2. Trump was a -10 and Biden seems to be at a -5 currently.

    Like, how is Biden doing compared to Reagan or Nixon?

    I dunno, we were just talking the other day about how - in spite of **all this** the US still manages to consistently rank near the top of all countries for immigration. Top ten by almost any metric or survey, usually near the top five.

    So while it's an easy argument that immigration is fucked every way to Sunday everywhere, it's silly trying to rank on some -10 to 10 scale when there is literally no real world example that would rank higher than a 2 or 3 by your scale.

    Except for America was better at this, even 30-40 years ago we were much better by that same metric. Probably a 4, maybe a 5.

    Comparing the Biden administration to the Trump administration is the continued normalization of 20+ years of Overton shift
    Yogi Berra wrote:
    No one goes there anymore. It's too crowded

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/20/key-findings-about-u-s-immigrants/

    lmgjd30q3pfr.png
    You'll notice that with this rise has come all the shit discussed the last few pages. Children in cages, Operation Gatekeeper, ICE's creation, etc.

    White / middle America has an irrational fear of immigrants. That's all you've helped demonstrate here. Hell that graph doesn't even distinguish where the immigrants come from - plenty are getting here by sea or air.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Idk man this whole "you'll never be happy" meme when we're posting about a Democratic administration putting kids in boxes and splitting up families seems kind of grotesque.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Decades ago, probably few people cared about the the conditions of detained immigrants, and assuming that was because things weren't bad for them isn't necessarily correct

    shryke
  • OghulkOghulk Registered User regular
    Idk man this whole "you'll never be happy" meme when we're posting about a Democratic administration putting kids in boxes and splitting up families seems kind of grotesque.

    I don't know if this particular context matters much when this conversation happens in almost every single politics thread on this forum.

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  • HenroidHenroid Affiliate Streamer Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Yeah, Henroid said as much last page.
    Henroid wrote: »
    Let me try an alternate phrasing since people are sorta maybe dancing around it?

    If you want myself and others to acknowledge that Biden has saved the day on immigration reform, the metric for this is the problem tangibly solved. Giving him that credit when the problem is ongoing just because of a few ideas thrown around or a couple small actions taken is not enough and will not be enough and it is logically not enough. It is wrong to give "problem solved" credit right now.

    Edit - And this applies to any sort of "acknowledge that he's trying" because no. The metric is, problem solved, yes or no.

    Edit - and then I asked how they define problem solved and the response was essentially 'open borders'.
    Why didn't you quote my post where I bullet pointed things? You're trying to lean on the propagandized term "open borders" a bit too much. It wasn't part of the post in question but a day or two ago I was noting in this thread that people at the border should be doing paperwork, getting their temporary ID, leaving contact info with immigration officials, and then be allowed to proceed to a hotel or motel or prepared home. Is that an "open border"? I mean I dunno compared to what we have I guess. But we'd still be getting people the means to get Social Security numbers and green cards and shit. It's about easing the restrictions and barriers of entry that are arbitrary (because again, whatever "but our jobs" concerns there are, it's the lowest income stuff that white America doesn't want, pays low anyway, and would self-solve because more people in country means more demand means more work).

    But sure just say "open borders" to make it sound scary or unreasonable or whatever it is the term is meant to do, depending on if you ask a Republican or Centrist.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Oghulk wrote: »
    Idk man this whole "you'll never be happy" meme when we're posting about a Democratic administration putting kids in boxes and splitting up families seems kind of grotesque.

    I don't know if this particular context matters much when this conversation happens in almost every single politics thread on this forum.

    Yeah its a persistent bit of nonsense

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  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Yeah, Henroid said as much last page.
    Henroid wrote: »
    Let me try an alternate phrasing since people are sorta maybe dancing around it?

    If you want myself and others to acknowledge that Biden has saved the day on immigration reform, the metric for this is the problem tangibly solved. Giving him that credit when the problem is ongoing just because of a few ideas thrown around or a couple small actions taken is not enough and will not be enough and it is logically not enough. It is wrong to give "problem solved" credit right now.

    Edit - And this applies to any sort of "acknowledge that he's trying" because no. The metric is, problem solved, yes or no.

    Edit - and then I asked how they define problem solved and the response was essentially 'open borders'.
    Why didn't you quote my post where I bullet pointed things? You're trying to lean on the propagandized term "open borders" a bit too much. It wasn't part of the post in question but a day or two ago I was noting in this thread that people at the border should be doing paperwork, getting their temporary ID, leaving contact info with immigration officials, and then be allowed to proceed to a hotel or motel or prepared home. Is that an "open border"? I mean I dunno compared to what we have I guess. But we'd still be getting people the means to get Social Security numbers and green cards and shit. It's about easing the restrictions and barriers of entry that are arbitrary (because again, whatever "but our jobs" concerns there are, it's the lowest income stuff that white America doesn't want, pays low anyway, and would self-solve because more people in country means more demand means more work).

    But sure just say "open borders" to make it sound scary or unreasonable or whatever it is the term is meant to do, depending on if you ask a Republican or Centrist.

    I realized I was being uncharitable which is why I removed the post and am going to take a break from the discussion.

  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    From the perspective of someone who has read every post in the thread (and that of many other previous versions of said thread), it feels like it basically goes along these lines;

    Imagine a ten point scale. Ideally US immigration would get to a perfect 10. I don't care what that is, especially since it's subjective and many will have a differing (if not mutually exclusive) views of it.

    Maybe Obama era policy was a 4 or 5. Hell, perhaps even a 6! Not great, maybe barely average, but better than it has been (in some ways, NOT ALL) in the past, Dreamers, etc.

    Trump era policy was, on said scale, like... a -14.

    The debate on 'better' versus 'perfect' seems to be an ongoing verbal battle over statements that the Biden administration seems to be back in that 4-6 range (from my perspective, at least), give or take a little. Objectively better than it was, but still with room for improvement, and there are elements that are not ideal and likely won't be ideal for a while for a variety of reasons.

    A major disparity really seems to be the folks who are like "US immigration is shit, has always been shit, and they've all been -1488 out of 10, and fuck you for thinking otherwise!" (hyperbole for humour present, I'm obviously not quoting anyone here specifically). The perspectives aren't in the same ballpark, and are so wildly disparate as to cause friction simply trying to put the conversation in a similar frame.

    There is minimal argument that US policy has had shitty elements. It's been fucked on just so many levels for so long. And then it got a lot worse. A return to the pre-Trump baseline isn't perfect, nobody is claiming it is, but it is better (AT LEAST IN SOME WAYS), and still requires work to improve further. If nothing else, 4 years of an absolute shitshow weren't going to be cleared up in the first 3 months (let alone tidying up issues and racism that have been present for longer than any of us have been alive), and yes, administrations can do more than one thing at a time, but there are also a rather remarkable number of fires to put out currently. To clear out the backlog, to go back to assisting these countries financially and in policy in ways that will tangibly improve quality of life, and more. Nobody who notes a return to that previous baseline (that I've read) has said so assuming that it's perfect and fine, and it is exasperating to have the inevitable "oh so you think kids in cages is great, eh? MONSTER!" hot take responses. As though every post has to have a thesis worth of referencing and caveats.

    But especially the last few variations on the thread have felt like a car repeatedly running into a brick wall; noisy, destructive, and prone to points being handed out. I'll leave it up to everyone's imagination as to which 'side' is which in this analogy. Especially since we are all ostensibly on the same side, even if we have reasonable and varied differing views on exact end goals, how to get there, prioritization and how swiftly they should be tackled.

    I get it. It's an important topic that is close to everyone's hearts. Passions flare, tempers rise, but being on these forums as long as I have, I feel fairly safe saying that no, very few people here actively 'want kids in cages', even if some form of detention or holding facility while establishing identities and vetting the safety of their destination homes might entail some need for *insert some form of humane detention/lodging here that isn't going to set off eighty eight more pages of outrage*.

    I also get that complacency is dangerous, but at the same time nobody is capable of remaining at an 11/10 in outrage forever, and striving to do so is unhealthy. We're all under incredible stress these days, we all have our challenges, and clearly we all care enough to keep abreast of the matter and commit time and thought to it here. The 'even when it's better we just have to yell at them more' might be great to aim at politicians of all levels, but unless I've lost track of the general forumer employment situation, nobody here can directly do much to change existing policy (as written and in application), so any expectations of ceaselessly calling for heads to (figuratively) roll as some kind of 'fuck the carrot, more stick, MORE STICK!' stance on things is also going to get pushback.

    I get where the view is coming from, but it makes an already exhausting topic verge on insufferable. "Oh look, a way that things got a tiny bit better!" is met with "and there are a billion ways it's still awful and just the worst"... which... yeah. No improvement we are likely to see in our lifetimes will bump that 4 or 5 up to a 9 overnight, and yelling about the 5 or 6 as being as bad as the aforementioned -14 just feels like nothing will ever be good enough or that there is any ground to hold actual discussion.

    It's bad, has always been bad, likely will always be bad, eat at Arbys.

    Like, the fact that you put Obama/Biden in the 4-6 and Trump at a -14 shows the actual problem. Trump was bad. Clearly deserves all the scorn he got. But Obama/Bid\en at best are in the low 1-2 range. People tend to overlook immigration, especially during D control eras because it tends to ride the status quo. Multiple times the Dems have controlled all 3 branches of government (though not necessarily filibuster proof) and real honest to god bills designed to fix things haven't even really made progress. Honestly, the biggest support we tend to see for immigration reform is by Dem's during Republican control. In 20 years, NEITHER HOUSE has even been able to pass the DREAM act, something most people on both sides generally agree is a "good thing" and certainly enjoys overwhelming support among Democrats.

    In my opinion, most of the "Best" things that have come down to help undocumented immigrants in the last few years have come down for specific reasons that benefit people OTHER than the immigrants. Sanctuary cities, by allowing immigrants to reach out to the police w/o fear of deportation reduces and prevents crime.

    Being better than Trump is a good thing, but it's an INCREDIBLY low bar to clear. If Biden et al want any real approval from the pro-immigration camp, they need to do a lot more.

    I mean, frankly, given the views expressed, I don't think it's unreasonable to grade on a curve here.

    I live in Canada, and feel fairly confident in saying that our immigration policies are, on the whole, generally and over the course of my lifetime at least, mostly better than the US and still also probably a 2 or 3 at best, based on how people react here.

    If the US is a 1 or 2, and no nation on Earth is likely higher than a 4 or 5, then we no longer have a 10 point scale, we have a 5 point scale with an upper end that might as well consist of perfectly spherical frictionless cows.

    The US can both have shitty immigration policies and also be better than it was and also have room for improvement without yelling KIDS IN CAGES every other post, as frankly this thread seems to have devolved into.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited April 8
    Biden literally undoing everything the Trump administration implemented would not be "progress," because that would merely be a reversion to the Obama-era immigration policies.

    Undoing all of Trump's policies is less than the acceptable bare minimum, and Biden hasn't even undone all of them yet.

    This is why I chafe at people demanding we give Biden credit for all the "progress" he is making.

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  • HenroidHenroid Affiliate Streamer Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Biden literally undoing everything the Trump administration implemented would not be "progress," because that would merely be a reversion to the Obama-era immigration policies.

    Undoing all of Trump's policies is less than the acceptable bare minimum, and Biden hasn't even undone all of them yet.

    This is why I chafe at people demanding we give Biden credit for all the "progress" he is making.
    To get specific, this would still leave our "economic" qualifiers (roundabout racism) in place, it would still leave Operation Gatekeeper in place, it would still leave child separation (no matter how politely phrased) in place, and ICE would still exist. Just to name a few things. A reset button is not progress enough.

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 8
    Would anyone, literally anyone in this thread go into an LGBTQ thread and talk in terms like "you won't be happy unless bigotry ceases to exist, so why should we try to make you happy?" Why is it okay to talk in those terms about human rights and treatment of immigrants, is it just because none of us know any of these children or their families?

    I hope I'm conveying how insane it is to dismiss people who are upset that the orphan crushing machine is still on just because they may or may not see open borders as the ideal situation in some undefined end-state of immigration policy. Nobody is mad at Biden for not turning America into The Culture. We want Biden to turn the orphan crushing machine off, as he campaigned fairly vigorously on doing so, as did his entire political party

    Like, I want all corporations to be owned by their employees, but me saying that doesn't mean I think it's a reasonable expectation - raising corporate taxes however is a reasonable expectation because Biden ran on it, and he should be expected to do it. This is no different.

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