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The Epic Apple fight

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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    edited May 2021
    Couscous wrote: »
    Evans is going to explain the difference between a “foremarket” and “aftermarket” distinction. A “foremarket” would be buying a printer, for instance, while an “aftermarket” is a purchase made after that initial buy — like toner for that printer.
    The smartphone is a foremarket here, and the apps are an aftermarket, Evans says. Basically, allegation is that Apple is using the foremarket to monopolize the aftermarket.
    I’m sure your friendly neighborhood lawyer or @reckless etc. can explain this much better than I can, but the upshot is, Apple created a big and unique ecosystem that it’s controlling access to, and Epic argues this is an antitrust violation.
    Again, don't see why this doesn't apply to consoles even more so given selling at a loss or very small profit to monopolize the aftermarket is kind of what consoles have done usually.

    If the argument is that the app market is different because it is more diverse, that seems really arbitrary and not that meaningful. The console markets are clearly big enough that Sony can use its control of access to its market to force Epic to do shit it definitely doesn't want to do in order to access it in the way it wants

    i dont know if this is what they are trying to say or not, but if I were in debate class, I'd say the distinction here is that if you are buying a game console you are expecting a certain amount of control from the vendor, whereas a phone is more of a general computing device and the expectations might not be built in

    this is all stupid timey-wimey shit... but the point that epic isn't going for (and in fact cooperating with) console makers is definitely a big hole in the logical argument... but law and logic don't always go together

    but if their case hinges on proving fortnite is an "ecosystem" and not an "app" then I'd say they're pretty fucked

    Jasconius on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    i dont know if this is what they are trying to say or not, but if I were in debate class, I'd say the distinction here is that if you are buying a game console you are expecting a certain amount of control from the vendor, whereas a phone is more of a general computing device and the expectations might not be built in
    Why wouldn't I expect that from a iPhone when Apple has always kept control over its app market?

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    cursedkingcursedking Registered User regular
    I wonder if this goes epic’s way, if that will impact other industries.

    Like keurig coffee makers now control the aftermarket because you can’t use other coffee pods due to scanning, and I’m sure the ones that are acceptable pay keurig a fee. Seems like exactly the same situation?

    Types: Boom + Robo | Food: Sweet | Habitat: Plains
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    HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    I wonder if this goes epic’s way, if that will impact other industries.

    Like keurig coffee makers now control the aftermarket because you can’t use other coffee pods due to scanning, and I’m sure the ones that are acceptable pay keurig a fee. Seems like exactly the same situation?

    Probably there should be some sort of extremely lengthy legal circus to hash this exact situation out

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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    I wonder if this goes epic’s way, if that will impact other industries.

    Like keurig coffee makers now control the aftermarket because you can’t use other coffee pods due to scanning, and I’m sure the ones that are acceptable pay keurig a fee. Seems like exactly the same situation?

    i dont know but I'm sure this forum will work vigorously to argue in favor of coffee DRM because grrrrr tim sweeney

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    SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    chock full of coffee cucks

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    ElaroElaro Apologetic Registered User regular
    Jasconius wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    I wonder if this goes epic’s way, if that will impact other industries.

    Like keurig coffee makers now control the aftermarket because you can’t use other coffee pods due to scanning, and I’m sure the ones that are acceptable pay keurig a fee. Seems like exactly the same situation?

    i dont know but I'm sure this forum will work vigorously to argue in favor of coffee DRM because grrrrr tim sweeney

    Hey, most of us are against both Epic and Apple. Who knows, maybe the judge will be so tired she'll make selling software licenses illegal make bundling proprietary software with closed-source hardware illegal declare Computer Communism once and for all! Wouldn't that be cool? I'm rooting for that outcome.

    Oh no, I'm not betting on it, but I am rooting for it.

    Children's rights are human rights.
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    Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2021
    Jasconius wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    I wonder if this goes epic’s way, if that will impact other industries.

    Like keurig coffee makers now control the aftermarket because you can’t use other coffee pods due to scanning, and I’m sure the ones that are acceptable pay keurig a fee. Seems like exactly the same situation?

    i dont know but I'm sure this forum will work vigorously to argue in favor of coffee DRM because grrrrr tim sweeney

    damn you definitely got our number, just a bunch of Apple apologists in here clearly. we definitely only have it out for Epic and think Apple is great.

    Houk the Namebringer on
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    Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    honestly the legal machinations of this whole thing is so far over my head that i just assume that whatever the outcome is it'll probably be worse for me when it's all over.

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    CarpyCarpy Registered User regular
    If the minimum outcome is all these walled gardens have to allow a mechanism to side load apps that seems like a pure win for the consumer.

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    I would kind of like it if consoles were forced to open up

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    would that flood their stores with smut

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    CarpyCarpy Registered User regular
    No, Apple would still control what goes into the app store they just have to allow you to run apps that you download directly.

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    Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    I genuinely believe Nintendo would sooner leave the console market than open up

    I'm not sure if I actually believe that, but I can't say I'd be surprised

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    you know the demand for smut is huge, and one of the main reasons for keeping it out is to be 'kid friendly'. but kids don't have any money so I wonder if that is actually the best thing to do

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    MvrckMvrck Dwarven MountainhomeRegistered User regular
    Jasconius wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    I wonder if this goes epic’s way, if that will impact other industries.

    Like keurig coffee makers now control the aftermarket because you can’t use other coffee pods due to scanning, and I’m sure the ones that are acceptable pay keurig a fee. Seems like exactly the same situation?

    i dont know but I'm sure this forum will work vigorously to argue in favor of coffee DRM because grrrrr tim sweeney

    I'm probably the biggest Epic apologist on these forums, and genuinely believe they are probably the most intentionally consumer friendly of the gaming/marketplace companies.

    Tim Sweeney is still a giant fucking ass and Epic just as much does good things in spite of him rather than because of him.

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    HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    Probably the executive class should be hanged

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    I still think Epic "winning" here has the best potential to, even if only incidentally, help other developers

    But the arguments they're trying to make to get there are positively deranged

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    HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    edited May 2021
    I'm not saying that hanging them all in public will like fix everything but wouldnt it be a shame for the lights to go out before we really stick it Mussolini style to all them pieces of shit

    Hobnail on
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    JedocJedoc In the scuppers with the staggers and jagsRegistered User regular
    I'm currently reading a book about the Ottoman empire, and most of the people with wealth and power were slaves who were plucked from the outskirts of the empire by people whose whole job was to pick the handsomest farmers out of the fields and train them from childhood to govern well. And when they died their wealth all went back to the state and their kids couldn't get the same gig.

    I'm not saying that's what we should do, but I do like the idea of nobody getting to inherit money anymore.

    Plus the big cheese had to strangle all his brothers to get the job, so we wouldn't have had to put up with Jeb.

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    RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    What book? Sounds interesting

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG
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    JedocJedoc In the scuppers with the staggers and jagsRegistered User regular
    Lords of the Horizons by Jason Goodwin. @Indie Winter recommended it in the history thread recently, and it is a really fascinating read!

    GDdCWMm.jpg
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    ElaroElaro Apologetic Registered User regular
    Jedoc wrote: »
    I'm currently reading a book about the Ottoman empire, and most of the people with wealth and power were slaves who were plucked from the outskirts of the empire by people whose whole job was to pick the handsomest farmers out of the fields and train them from childhood to govern well. And when they died their wealth all went back to the state and their kids couldn't get the same gig.

    I'm not saying that's what we should do, but I do like the idea of nobody getting to inherit money anymore.

    Plus the big cheese had to strangle all his brothers to get the job, so we wouldn't have had to put up with Jeb.

    Inheritance is bullshit. When people die, other people should mourn them, not pick over the financial remains like a pack of vultures. Same goes for life insurance. Every family should be cared for regardless of whether they have a breadwinner that takes care of them.

    Children's rights are human rights.
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    XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    psshh

    If I have money when I kick off, I want my kids to have it.

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    DepressperadoDepressperado I just wanted to see you laughing in the pizza rainRegistered User regular
    when you die, all your money and assets should be used to throw the most radical wake ever

    like, you save up your whole life so that when you pop off, your family throws an 8 day rager. a party so dope it's illegal

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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    when you die, all your money and assets should be used to throw the most radical wake ever

    like, you save up your whole life so that when you pop off, your family throws an 8 day rager. a party so dope it's illegal

    Honestly, this seems like not a terrible idea economically. It's dumping giant amounts of money into local businesses (and, admittedly, it trickles up to the big corporations, but still). Better than inheritance anyways.

    Steam: Polaritie
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    DepressperadoDepressperado I just wanted to see you laughing in the pizza rainRegistered User regular
    when bezos dies, we'll have to move to the moon and orbital stations because the party left the earth uninhabitable for 40 years

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    when bezos dies, we'll have to move to the moon and orbital stations because the party left the earth uninhabitable for 40 years

    Jokes on you in like five years Bezos will buy the moon

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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    when bezos dies, we'll have to move to the moon and orbital stations because the party left the earth uninhabitable for 40 years

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    liEt3nH.png
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    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Like many things, applying the same rules to the mega wealthy and everyone else doesn't make much sense when it comes to inheritance

    There's a biiiig difference between "when I die I want my savings to go toward paying off some bills and maybe giving my spouse/kids a solid rainy day fund" and "when I die I want my estate to be managed in the most tax-dodgy way possible so as to help my next of kin continue to consolidate our financial empire"

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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    when you die, all your money and assets should be used to throw the most radical wake ever

    like, you save up your whole life so that when you pop off, your family throws an 8 day rager. a party so dope it's illegal

    I'm having a gender-reveal funeral; people will find out my gender assigned at birth and get to start a raging wildfire.

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    ButlerButler 89 episodes or bust Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    hey, Stadia could be the next M&Ms!

    This reads like an extremely American zen koan.

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    OptyOpty Registered User regular
    Epic is in the position of "side that could do the most good by winning" only they're fucking it up by being weird wishy-washy dipshits about stuff they need to be extremely specific about to even have a chance of winning their case.

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    Indie WinterIndie Winter die Krähe Rudi Hurzlmeier (German, b. 1952)Registered User regular
    Jedoc wrote: »
    Lords of the Horizons by Jason Goodwin. "Indie Winter" recommended it in the history thread recently, and it is a really fascinating read!

    @Jedoc if you liked that one then I also heartily recommend Let Our Fame Be Great about the people of the Caucuses and their history before, during and after the Russian conquest of the area in the 19th century

    wY6K6Jb.gif
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    MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    when you die, all your money and assets should be used to throw the most radical wake ever

    like, you save up your whole life so that when you pop off, your family throws an 8 day rager. a party so dope it's illegal

    I'm having a gender-reveal funeral; people will find out my gender assigned at birth and get to start a raging wildfire.

    But gender reveal funerals are already happening across the nation, and they, too, cause wildfires.

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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Elaro wrote: »
    Jedoc wrote: »
    I'm currently reading a book about the Ottoman empire, and most of the people with wealth and power were slaves who were plucked from the outskirts of the empire by people whose whole job was to pick the handsomest farmers out of the fields and train them from childhood to govern well. And when they died their wealth all went back to the state and their kids couldn't get the same gig.

    I'm not saying that's what we should do, but I do like the idea of nobody getting to inherit money anymore.

    Plus the big cheese had to strangle all his brothers to get the job, so we wouldn't have had to put up with Jeb.

    Inheritance is bullshit. When people die, other people should mourn them, not pick over the financial remains like a pack of vultures. Same goes for life insurance. Every family should be cared for regardless of whether they have a breadwinner that takes care of them.

    People want to make a nest egg for their offspring, that's not something you can really prevent.

    But if everyone is cared for, and well, regardless of what happens to their parents, then that problem becomes a lot smaller.

    So... good schools, good education, more than enough healthy food and housing for everyone. But it's kind of a hen/egg problem.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    If we really lived in a meritocratic society inheritance wouldn't be a thing. I mean, a lot of other things wouldn't be things either, and society would need to ensure that everyone gets a equal start to life, so inheritance would only really be a small change in the grand scheme of things. But people who believe in meritocracy tend to also believe in inheritance, and they don't really fit together. At least on an individual level.

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    Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited May 2021
    People in line to inherit an amoral amount of wealth also get a lot of privilege in a meritocracy

    We wouldn’t need to prevent amoral inheritance if we didn’t permit amoral personal wealth accumulation

    ::smiles and nods self-satisfiedly::

    Captain Inertia on
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    MrMonroeMrMonroe passed out on the floor nowRegistered User regular
    I'm happy to let folks create a "nest egg" for their kids.

    I just think that over a certain size we should tax it at 100%. What is that number? Tough to say. Probably best to peg it to some index, but I cannot imagine anyone "needs" or certainly deserves an inheritance larger than, say $5M in today's dollars.

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    Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    while i agree that the estate tax should be higher because it doesn't even matter in any real way to anyone who's not gigawealthy, i'm more interested in jacking up the top marginal rate so these people can't really exist in the first place.

    the top marginal rate should, at the very minimum, be twice as high as it is now. billionares taxed at 37% is straight up wrong, to say nothing of the ridiculous tax avoidance schemes they engage in to drop their effective rates to pathetic amounts.

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