[Warhammer], space or old world everyone needs hammers

Karl

Trace wrote: »

So yeah finished Lion Son of the Forest

This is good shit, read it.

Dante shows up at the end and lets Lion know about Guilliman being up and about as well.

Dante: Look there's two of you. Can I just fucking die now

Everyone:LMAO no.

Trace

Karl wrote: »

Trace wrote: »

So yeah finished Lion Son of the Forest

This is good shit, read it.

Dante shows up at the end and lets Lion know about Guilliman being up and about as well.

Dante: Look there's two of you. Can I just fucking die now

Everyone:LMAO no.

I sincerely can't wait until we get Primarchs and Necrons in the same book.

Solar

italianranma wrote: »

I'm almost halfway through The Lion Son of the Forest, and I'll give my final opinions when I finish it. If you're looking for the bullet-points on what happens in the book there are a few YouTube channels doing that, but I've been avoiding Warhammer videos recently to avoid such spoilers. I figured I'd give some general impressions on it though, and talk a little about what I really want to see in my chainsword & bolter fiction.

Very mild spoilers here regarding the Lion's reappearance, his demeanor, and the general tone of the prose. Also referencing some lore from the Lion Arks of Omen book...

The book opens with the Lion literally awakening from his long slumber and dives headfirst into Arthurian imagery. I had to put it down for a minute and have a laugh when the first character he encounters is a literal fisher king. It's not at all subtle about it, but Warhammer isn't known for either subtlety or restraint. From there the book wants to reintroduce us both to the Lion and the various types of Dark Angel Fallen that occupy the Dark Imperium half of the galaxy. There are three POV characters thus far: the Lion himself; Zabriel, a sort of Knight-errant who represents the Fallen who were "wrong place wrong time" but otherwise loyal; and Baelor, a not-yet-corrupted Space Marine who's allied with a Chaos Warband. The Lion and Zabriel meet relatively early and Brooks, I presume, uses them as the template for how that template of Fallen will be reintegrated back into the Dark Angels proper. Baelor serves the primary antagonists but as yet hasn't encountered the Lion, and I wonder how that encounter will shape up. The Horus Heresy Lion el Johnson would have swiftly decapitated him with backhand, but I'm not sure what this newer, gentler Lion will do...

This is the first Mike Brooks novel I've read and so far my opinion is "not bad for a Warhammer author." I.e. damning with faint praise. I've been reading a lot of Dan Abnett naturally, and Aaron Dembski-Bowden's work I think transcends the genre, so I might be a little spoiled. The action parts are alright, more on my gripes with it below, but the narrative is just... well, not boring but not that interesting either. I imagine Brooks was given an end state of what the Lion and his relationship to the Fallen, the Dark Angels, and the Imperium at large needed to be, and rather than come up with a narrative arc for how a taciturn, unsympathetic warlord becomes an empathetic and inspiring leader, the Lion just sort of is that now? He wonders about it internally, justifying that he could get away with being an asshole 10,000 years ago, but now he's got to use all those other diplomatic tools. Even with that justification it's hard to rectify this version of the Lion who puts his personal safety at risk to save a few humans with the one who was ready to tactically nuke a planet because Kurze was on it. The old Lion was utterly bereft of empathy and almost completely defined by his single-minded determination to exterminate his enemies at any cost. While I'm fine with a more nuanced and empathetic character who prioritizes protecting Imperial citizens, I was really hoping to see some reason for that change. Age can certainly mellow a personality, and 10,000 years is a lot of time to mellow, but also almost no time at all has passed for the Lion so... I guess all he really needed was a little nap, like a cranky toddler. That's how the whole book has gone so far. Everything is played completely straight. The Lion is all the things he was before. The Fallen are all the variations they've ever been. The Imperial Nihilus is basically D&D 4E's Points of Light setting. The chaos warband exactly what you expect for an appropriate challenge to the party. Everything comes together exactly as it needs to in order to move the story forward. The narrative exists simply to tell us what happened between the Lion getting a new model, and his self-titled Arks of Omen release, and maybe give us a little direction for what might come in the next Dark Angels codex.

That might come off as a little harsh, and it is, and I am. As a former military instructor it was my job to be critical, and I've taken that perspective into my hobbies as well. Some people really dislike that and want to just "turn their brains off" and enjoy the things they like, and I've got no problems with that. I just can't do it myself, or rather I enjoy a work by deconstructing it. I'm still reading (or rather listening) to the audiobook and it doesn't feel like a slog by any means. Just because I'm critical doesn't mean I don't enjoy simple, mindless fun on occasion. Although if I'm being completely honest I would have stopped the book 4 hours ago if it wasn't Warhammer. I enjoy the IP, and specifically Dark Angels content, and so I'm willing to put up with the quality of writing that I'd find on Fanfiction.net. I assume anyway, it's been years since I was reading Ranma fanfiction. That makes me a little sad though. I think we deserve better quality writing for 40k. Certainly the company could afford some name-brand authors. Or maybe they can clone ADB a few times...

I keep bringing up ADB because I think he alone has been able to translate the concept of post-human super-soldier in prose. I'll caveat that with the fact that I haven't read any of Abnett's Horus Heresy novels, or anything at all by Chris Wraight whom I've heard is pretty good. But Gav Thorpe, Guy Haley, and now Mike Brooks all seem to fall to the same mistakes that I think define Warhammer fiction as mediocre. All of these authors imagine the same scene: the heroic codex cover art with heroes shooting or punching something really hard, and they set that as the highest level of "cool" in their novels. If it's about Imperial Guardsmen, then that hero gets to act effectively, make reasonable decisions, and encounter challenging but not overwhelming odds that cements their place in the narrative. I think most readers can empathize with that character and think "Yeah, I could see a heroic human doing these things." But if it's a Space Marine, or a Primarch, or a Necron Overlord, or whatever, they all act with about the same level of intelligence, capability, and agency. The rest of the universe simply gets scaled around them. It's not a perfect analogy, but I'm not a professional author. I imagine that if I was I'd do some research and write better characters analogies. For example (slight spoiler from the novel, should be safe to click on):

At a certain point the Lion finds himself in command of an Imperial Garrison in the Imperial Nihilus. He takes command and Brooks describes him issuing orders for hours. Then (because it's late and his staff needs sleep) he has a "humanizing" moment where he can't find a bed that fits him because he's a giant Primarch. I've got so many questions! Why is he sleeping? If the garrison is in as much danger as he thinks it is shouldn't he use some of that Super-Superhuman endurance and work for a week straight? Why is his staff on just one shift? On an entire planet are there not enough executive officers to cover him 24-7? What kinds of orders is he issuing? Also, how much does the Lion weigh that he can't sleep in several beds lined together so that he'll crush them, but he can apparently sit on a chair they found?

Real-life military commanders do need sleep, but they also have co-commanders on rotating shifts along with specific thresholds of urgency on when to wake them up because operations are run 24-7. Brooks makes it seem like commanding multiple planets is day job with intervals of rest and activity... What? Moreover he's unable to give any sort of insight into why a Primarch can take a hopeless situation and turn it into something achievable. He wrote about why this might be:

Mike Brooks wrote:

The problem with writing Primarchs is that you need to show their staggering intellect and tactical brilliance when you, the author, lack those traits! Writing the Lion physically kicking butt was easy – he’s immensely strong and fast. However, there’s a void battle which takes place at one point, and it was somewhat daunting to come up with tactics that felt worthy of a Primarch for it.

Yeah, I can empathize with trying to write someone smarter than myself, especially in a situation where I personally might not have that kind of experience. What would ADB do in this situation?

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:

I did a lot of additional context/flavour research for this one, which involved talking to a lot of people with specific, extreme experiences to share. Firefighters who’ve been blind in burning buildings. WWII veterans, including a survivor of a Japanese POW camp and a deck gunner on the HMS Belfast. Cops, surgeons, nurses – the list goes on and on. Anuradha, the narrator, had to have a specific way of seeing the world, which I really wanted to come across. She’s not a Space Marine, but she perceives and processes things most of us will never really deal with. I wanted her to be credible, and that meant grounding her in as much context as I could collect.

source.

There's no Primarch currently on Terra to interview, but there are plenty of military vets who have experience in rapidly evolving contingency planning, and that sort of insight and retelling would likely seem superhuman to someone without any experience in that field. Maybe find one or two of them who like Warhammer? We exist. Vets love talking about there experiences. It's hard to get us to shut up sometimes...

Speaking of, I considered myself to be a sub-par fighter pilot. And, if I'm being honest, my evaluations supported that assessment. But there were guys in the squadron whom I was in awe of. Tactical geniuses who seemed to read radar screens instantaneously and make decisions in tenths of seconds. They seemed to have no wasted time or efforts, and they'd always be moving ahead of what seemed to be happening from my perspective. That's how I imagine Space Marines. I know everyone's interpretation of them should be valid, but I wish Games Workshop writing standards would incorporate that aspect, because every time I see (or read) a Space Marine not moving towards the most advantageous position in any given tactical situation I feel intimidate disappointment. Too often they're just standing still and hip firing weathering any assault by nature of their 3+ armor save rather than any tactical acumen. The Astartes series is just about the only time I think I've seen Space Marines portrayed in the way that fits my vision of them, and I think that economy of action is what makes that series different from any of the other ones, official or otherwise. Mike Brooks' prose isn't terrible in this aspect, but it's not great either. There's a lot of Space Marines fighting each other, but it doesn't feel particularly super-human. It feels like someone translating a turn-based RPG into prose. Not even a particularly good one. Like ATB-era Final Fantasy combat. It's fine as an abstraction of combat, but it's not the action-oriented combat that I crave.

Honestly I think even ADBs stuff is pretty mediocre genre fiction. The only BL stuff that stands on its feet are the Abnett Inquisitor books imo, and even then they're Fine.

Ultimately 40K is not really fine literary work. It's grimdark fantasy superheroes. Airport fiction if you like. And that's fine, but it is what it is.

Opposing Farce

I haven't played Darktide yet but I do appreciate that wherever Dan Abnett goes he leaves a trail of at least semi-competant mortal chaos followers.

I hope one day in the future we get a codex representing these forces. I miss my Lost and the Damned. And the FW Renegades stuff. Of course you can just use the guard rules now. I mean mixing factions isn't really a thing anymore anyways (which I'm good with)

Also I have a 3d printer so I'm working on some modern themed imperial guard. I enjoy kitbashing (physically and digitally) so who knows if ill ever finish an army, let alone this one, but yeah.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAstraMilitarum/comments/135ms5h/some_more_modernthemed_guard/

Judge Jessie W

PiptheFair wrote: »

trazyn is just the best space asshole

just the most perfect piece of shit you gotta respect

I read some of the infinite and the divine and it’s basically a novel about two grumpy old dudes feuding except they’re immortal space robots and one of them can time travel and the other can steal bodies it’s fuckin rad

They’re just the bitchiest dweebs

Judge Jessie W

Also ADB’s spear of the emperor is one of the most banger sci fi novels I’ve read in a while. It’s a book about fighting a losing battle on the dark side of the rift where everything possible goes wrong and also becoming a complete independent being for the first time in your life, and it’s sick nasty

honovere

Judge Jessie W wrote: »

PiptheFair wrote: »

trazyn is just the best space asshole

just the most perfect piece of shit you gotta respect

I read some of the infinite and the divine and it’s basically a novel about two grumpy old dudes feuding except they’re immortal space robots and one of them can time travel and the other can steal bodies it’s fuckin rad

They’re just the bitchiest dweebs

They're a great Odd Couple. Both are like, I hate that guy, but at least he's not such an idiot like all these other guys.

Dayspring

I did a showcase video for my Necromunda chaos cult gang, if you're into that sort of thing!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBjlVizu7Lc

Judge Jessie W

since i was playing with my toys today, have a slightly old picture of my salamander collection, in the process of being painted



something something wiggin something something dragon army salamanders

webguy20

I love the salamander scheme. If i hadn’t gotten some BT stuff at steep discount my first marine army would have been the guys in green. Flamers for life.

Halos Nach Tariff

I forgot we had a warhammer thread in here! I was at warhammer fest last weekend cos the new venue is close to home, and had a good time playing some Warcry and meeting up with people. I also threw some entries into Golden Demon cos I've always wanted to, didn't get through into the qualifying stages or anything, but it was still fun!

Unfortunately I couldn't find a moment to take some pics of my stuff in the cabinets, but I did take some post-fest pics: