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[Labor and Unions]: Workers of the world, unite!

HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
edited May 13 in Debate and/or Discourse
Since the old thread finally closed (after seven years!), we're getting a new one. This is a thread for talking about breaking news and current issues in the world of labor, both organized and unorganized. Feel free to post articles about the ongoing struggles of workers across the world, be they in big union shops or little mom and pop outfits. As well, matters pertaining to labor like anti-worker practices by governments and workplaces are also welcome.

I'm going to do a bit of a break from the norm in DnD threads and use the OP for links to resources my fellow workers can use to coordinate things like organizing campaigns in the workplace, filing unfair labor practice complaints, or just straight up reporting someone to OSHA for safety violations. I'll edit them in as time goes on.

In the words of countless workers before me: "Workers of the world, unite! All you have to lose are your chains!"

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    In yet another depressing example of left wing groups not putting their money where their mouth is, nonprofit criminal justice news site The Appeal has retaliated against their employees unionizing by announcing mass layoffs five fucking minutes after the certification.

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  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Always count on employers, no matter how progressive they claim to be, to make a heel turn the second workers organize.

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    In the last year, 38 people have left. The Appeal typically has a staff of around 50. The majority of those who left were people of color, and more than two-thirds were women.

    This feels like the owners were up to shit even before the union busting be because damn

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  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    That's not turnover, that's meat grinding.

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  • Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Robot Girl Mimiga VillageRegistered User regular
    You'd think a place called Collectivo Coffee would be a co-op or union shop?

    lol nope.

    Remember folks, capitalists will gladly co-opt the affectations/language of true progessive movements in order to make a buck and screw over workers.

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  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited May 13
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    In the last year, 38 people have left. The Appeal typically has a staff of around 50. The majority of those who left were people of color, and more than two-thirds were women.

    This feels like the owners were up to shit even before the union busting be because damn

    Unionizing is a great way to prevent shittery, in my experience. Unfortunately it seems unionizing did not, in fact, stop them from being shits. Disappointing!

    Hacksaw on
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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    In the last year, 38 people have left. The Appeal typically has a staff of around 50. The majority of those who left were people of color, and more than two-thirds were women.

    This feels like the owners were up to shit even before the union busting be because damn

    Unionizing is a great way to prevent shittery, in my experience. Unfortunately it seems unionizing did not, in fact, stop them from being shits. Disappointing!

    Well in this case it would be asking the union to time travel which might be a bit much to ask. ;)

    Elvenshae
  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    My hope is that the union rakes them across the coals in the next round of bargaining. Absolutely take them to task for engaging in such blatantly anti-worker activity.

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Always count on employers, no matter how progressive they claim to be, to make a heel turn the second workers organize.
    Most employers dislike unions because the unions have more control and autonomy. As far as I can tell there has been one employer who actively encouraged their employees to unionize. Every other employer is so mad about them.

    HacksawHarry Dresden
  • TefTef Registered User regular
    The New Zealand government is introducing a system called The Fair Pay System. The name is a little misleading because it’s more than just pay (safety, work conditions etc).
    In essence, if 10% or 1,000 workers (whichever is less) vote to unionise, the company is legally bound to engage in negotiations with the respective union.

    Much needed and long overdue. My motherland, Australia, has had similar laws for a long time and they have been instrumental in keeping the bastard owners honest (somewhat, at least).

    https://www.mbie.govt.nz/dmsdocument/14294-the-proposed-fair-pay-agreement-system-pdf

    Random fact for the day, New Zealand was one of the first countries to introduce the 8-hour work day

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  • TefTef Registered User regular
    Thinking again about the Westgate bridge collapse. The CFMEU (Construction, Forestry, Mining, and Energy Union) put out a good video on it, I recommend checking it out

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  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    The only thing I know about NZ labor laws is that they took a big hit so the Hobbit movies could be filmed there.

    Does this new law fix that?

    zepherin
  • TefTef Registered User regular
    The only thing I know about NZ labor laws is that they took a big hit so the Hobbit movies could be filmed there.

    Does this new law fix that?

    Best I can say is, hopefully.the issue there is the vast majority of workers have been made casual, or ~contractors~ . It’s a very promising sign the Labour Gov’t is using its massive mandate to move in the correct direction. We need more attention on this specific issue; it’s not the sort of thing the average kiwi knows much about

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    You'd think a place called Collectivo Coffee would be a co-op or union shop?

    lol nope.

    Remember folks, capitalists will gladly co-opt the affectations/language of true progessive movements in order to make a buck and screw over workers.

    Or they're terrible socialists who got corrupted by power. There are capitalists who are pro-union, I'm one of them.

    Marathon
  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Always count on employers, no matter how progressive they claim to be, to make a heel turn the second workers organize.
    Most employers dislike unions because the unions have more control and autonomy. As far as I can tell there has been one employer who actively encouraged their employees to unionize. Every other employer is so mad about them.

    Most employers dislike unions because they want to grind every last red cent out of people in the short term, regardless of the long term costs. Good unions will deal with a fair amount of the things that HR has to be paid to deal with now. A healthy employer/employee relationship is incredibly beneficial to both sides. The counterweight to unions sometimes making employers jump through silly hoops to fire people is that employees also don't really like carrying their brethren's dead weight, and pissing off your fellow union members is generally a "very bad idea" (tm)

    Ticaldfjam
  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    You'd think a place called Collectivo Coffee would be a co-op or union shop?

    lol nope.

    Remember folks, capitalists will gladly co-opt the affectations/language of true progessive movements in order to make a buck and screw over workers.

    Or they're terrible socialists who got corrupted by power. There are capitalists who are pro-union, I'm one of them.

    i mean

    there is a long tradition of capital stealing left-wing and other radical symbols and people and then selling them, that's one of the main not-directly-physically-violent ways they defang things that might pose them a threat. this is a pretty well known phenomenon that you don't really need to invoke hypothetical crypto-socialist CEOs to explain

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  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    A socialist who's gone mad with power was probably never really a socialist to begin with. Wolf in sheep's whool situation.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    i mean

    there is a long tradition of capital stealing left-wing and other radical symbols and people and then selling them, that's one of the main not-directly-physically-violent ways they defang things that might pose them a threat. this is a pretty well known phenomenon that you don't really need to invoke hypothetical crypto-socialist CEOs to explain

    But this stance refutes the idea that to be pro-union is to be socialist, when it's not that simple. It cultivates the idea that to be pro-union is to be socialist, and anyone who is a socialist who is against union is just a pretend socialist therefore no socialists ever did wrong by their own workers. Socialists are people, just like capitalists.

    There are socialist CEOs who are against unions in their companies.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/10/union-campaign-that-roiled-the-young-turks-178996
    “Before IATSE came in, I think we used to have a great relationship with everyone at the company. But maybe I am Michael Scott and I thought we were friends and family but you never saw it that way,” Uygur wrote in an email to employees last week, as negotiations between the union and the company continued. “I’m hoping that isn’t the case, that some folks got you to believe that being adversarial with ‘management’ is the right thing to do.”

    The internal union battle is the latest high-profile instance of a liberal organization thrown into turmoil by the process of unionization as lower-level employees allege that managers’ progressive politics were more virtue-signaling than practiced.

    This isn't a hypothetical.

  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    cenk uygur isn't a socialist

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    A socialist who's gone mad with power was probably never really a socialist to begin with. Wolf in sheep's whool situation.

    C'mon now that's just being silly. Socialists aren't some incorruptible avatar of perfection.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    cenk uygur isn't a socialist

    He definitely is, he's not a liberal or conservative.

  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    A socialist who's gone mad with power was probably never really a socialist to begin with. Wolf in sheep's whool situation.

    It’s kind of like if a self-described republican (lower case r, not GOP) went mad with power and made themselves a king.

    Maybe not quite the adherent to the idea of a republic as claimed!

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  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    cenk uygur isn't a socialist

    He definitely is, he's not a liberal or conservative.

    i promise you he's extremely liberal

    aside from all the capitalist shit he regularly says and publishes, you can't really be a CEO of a private company and be a socialist, it is a contradiction in terms

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    i mean

    there is a long tradition of capital stealing left-wing and other radical symbols and people and then selling them, that's one of the main not-directly-physically-violent ways they defang things that might pose them a threat. this is a pretty well known phenomenon that you don't really need to invoke hypothetical crypto-socialist CEOs to explain

    But this stance refutes the idea that to be pro-union is to be socialist, when it's not that simple. It cultivates the idea that to be pro-union is to be socialist, and anyone who is a socialist who is against union is just a pretend socialist therefore no socialists ever did wrong by their own workers. Socialists are people, just like capitalists.

    There are socialist CEOs who are against unions in their companies.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/10/union-campaign-that-roiled-the-young-turks-178996
    “Before IATSE came in, I think we used to have a great relationship with everyone at the company. But maybe I am Michael Scott and I thought we were friends and family but you never saw it that way,” Uygur wrote in an email to employees last week, as negotiations between the union and the company continued. “I’m hoping that isn’t the case, that some folks got you to believe that being adversarial with ‘management’ is the right thing to do.”

    The internal union battle is the latest high-profile instance of a liberal organization thrown into turmoil by the process of unionization as lower-level employees allege that managers’ progressive politics were more virtue-signaling than practiced.

    This isn't a hypothetical.

    Unions are by their nature socialist constructs. I find it hard to argue that someone who calls themselves a socialist yet rejects unions actually has thought about socialist ideology beyond a superficial layer.

    Or to put it simply, if you say you believe in socialism and reject unions, you don't actually believe in socialism.

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  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    i mean

    there is a long tradition of capital stealing left-wing and other radical symbols and people and then selling them, that's one of the main not-directly-physically-violent ways they defang things that might pose them a threat. this is a pretty well known phenomenon that you don't really need to invoke hypothetical crypto-socialist CEOs to explain

    But this stance refutes the idea that to be pro-union is to be socialist, when it's not that simple. It cultivates the idea that to be pro-union is to be socialist, and anyone who is a socialist who is against union is just a pretend socialist therefore no socialists ever did wrong by their own workers. Socialists are people, just like capitalists.

    There are socialist CEOs who are against unions in their companies.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/10/union-campaign-that-roiled-the-young-turks-178996
    “Before IATSE came in, I think we used to have a great relationship with everyone at the company. But maybe I am Michael Scott and I thought we were friends and family but you never saw it that way,” Uygur wrote in an email to employees last week, as negotiations between the union and the company continued. “I’m hoping that isn’t the case, that some folks got you to believe that being adversarial with ‘management’ is the right thing to do.”

    The internal union battle is the latest high-profile instance of a liberal organization thrown into turmoil by the process of unionization as lower-level employees allege that managers’ progressive politics were more virtue-signaling than practiced.

    This isn't a hypothetical.

    Unions are by their nature socialist constructs. I find it hard to argue that someone who calls themselves a socialist yet rejects unions actually has thought about socialist ideology beyond a superficial layer.

    Or to put it simply, if you say you believe in socialism and reject unions, you don't actually believe in socialism.

    Is this one of those things where most Americans think socialism is “The Government Owns Or Does A Thing” instead of “The workers own the means of production versus Capitalism, where a separate ownership class who owns the means of production and workers sell their labor as a means of access to the means of production” thing?

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  • TefTef Registered User regular
    There is a generous reading where a capitalist understands the union as a necessary evil. They understand that the owner and worker relationship is inherently adversarial and for workers to receive enough to get by on, the workers need to collectively bargain. This would be in service of, consciously or not, delaying (ideally for the owners, preventing) the realisation of one of the inherent contradictions of capitalism.

    I think even when this generous reading, there is a meaningful separation between that thinking and ‘believing in’ worker unions.

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    zepherin wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Always count on employers, no matter how progressive they claim to be, to make a heel turn the second workers organize.
    Most employers dislike unions because the unions have more control and autonomy. As far as I can tell there has been one employer who actively encouraged their employees to unionize. Every other employer is so mad about them.

    Most employers dislike unions because they want to grind every last red cent out of people in the short term, regardless of the long term costs. Good unions will deal with a fair amount of the things that HR has to be paid to deal with now. A healthy employer/employee relationship is incredibly beneficial to both sides. The counterweight to unions sometimes making employers jump through silly hoops to fire people is that employees also don't really like carrying their brethren's dead weight, and pissing off your fellow union members is generally a "very bad idea" (tm)

    There is that as well, but from a psychological standpoint. Upper levels of management often have Abusive power and control narcissistic personality disorders. So while the every last cent motivator is there, the real motivator is the control. I've seen companies spend obscene amounts of money to better "control" their workers. And not really gain any efficiency.

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  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    A socialist who's gone mad with power was probably never really a socialist to begin with. Wolf in sheep's whool situation.

    C'mon now that's just being silly. Socialists aren't some incorruptible avatar of perfection.

    Maybe not, but even bog standard socialists are strong proponents of unions. It's literally a cornerstone of the philosophy. Those who aren't proponents were just appropriating socialist rhetoric in order to cover their infiltration into leftist circles for whatever insincere reason.

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  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    A socialist who's gone mad with power was probably never really a socialist to begin with. Wolf in sheep's whool situation.

    C'mon now that's just being silly. Socialists aren't some incorruptible avatar of perfection.
    People can fake an identity through public relations and eventually be discovered to be full of shit.

    HacksawShadowfireMan in the Mists
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    A socialist who's gone mad with power was probably never really a socialist to begin with. Wolf in sheep's whool situation.

    C'mon now that's just being silly. Socialists aren't some incorruptible avatar of perfection.
    People can fake an identity through public relations and eventually be discovered to be full of shit.

    This is also true sure.

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  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    cenk uygur isn't a socialist

    He definitely is, he's not a liberal or conservative.

    If he isn’t actually committed to labor owning the means of production, he really isn’t.

    Which given his track record he does not seem to be.

    Again: it’s like a king declaring they’re a republican. It’s an inherent contradiction

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  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    edited May 14
    Tef wrote: »
    There is a generous reading where a capitalist understands the union as a necessary evil. They understand that the owner and worker relationship is inherently adversarial and for workers to receive enough to get by on, the workers need to collectively bargain. This would be in service of, consciously or not, delaying (ideally for the owners, preventing) the realisation of one of the inherent contradictions of capitalism.

    I think even when this generous reading, there is a meaningful separation between that thinking and ‘believing in’ worker unions.

    Or one can be a capitalist who genuinely believes (correctly) that most unions ultimately create a more efficient and more profitable environment, and increase the quality and retention of their employees, which also increases profitability long term. There are different shades and flavor of different beliefs and ideologies, and not all capitalists are or will inevitably become short term benefit only vulture capitalist ghouls.

    And I'm not saying that as someone who would self-describe as a capitalist. I can disagree with someone who holds a more capitalistic view on markets and economics than myself and also acknowledge that some, though not most, come to similar conclusions to myself on a variety of subjects, if often for different reasons.

    And people can also think and act in contradictory ways. Someone can be a socialist, think in socialist terms, and still make shitty kneejerk decisions to maximize their own benefit without making them "not a real socialist." I mean it probably makes them a hypocrite, but hypocrisy does not instantly in of itself divest one of the whole of their ideological framework.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited May 14
    There's no reason to believe any manager or owner who says theyre on labor's side in any capacity. Doesnt matter if they call themselves socialist or not

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  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    There's no reason to believe any mamager or owner who says theyre on labor's side in any capacity. Doesnt matter if they call themselves socialist or not

    No True Scotocialist Would Do This.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    There's no reason to believe any mamager or owner who says theyre on labor's side in any capacity. Doesnt matter if they call themselves socialist or not

    No True Scotocialist Would Do This.

    Im not sure what this is, but anyone who lets the owner class talk them into thinking their relationship isnt adversarial is a mark.

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  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    edited May 14
    wikipedia wrote:
    An appeal to purity is commonly associated with protecting a preferred group. One can imagine a matter of Scottish national pride is at stake if someone regularly considered to be Scottish commits a heinous crime. Thus, there may be an active interest in protecting members of this shared Scottish heritage from a possible accusation of guilt by association by denying that the group includes this undesirable member or action. "No true Scotsman would do something so undesirable"; i.e. the people who would do such a thing are tautologically (definitionally) excluded from being part of our group such that they cannot serve as a counter-example to the group's good nature.

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  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Yes we know there's a possibility for business owners and managers to actually be good to employees.

    However, it is not the norm, nor does the economic structure of the world support it because capitalism (and thus anti-union sentiment and effort to destroy said unions) is every-goddamn-where.

    More importantly @Lord_Asmodeus the onus is on you provide examples of the outliers, not to make us do the homework for you.

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  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    no true scotsman really doesn't apply to this, that's a very big stretch

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    no true scotsman really doesn't apply to this, that's a very big stretch

    This argument about how no true socialist would ever do X is literally one of the purest examples of the no true scotsman fallacy.

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  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    no true scotsman really doesn't apply to this, that's a very big stretch

    This argument about how no true socialist would ever do X is literally one of the purest examples of the no true scotsman fallacy.

    There's a difference between a demographic and an ideoligy though. If the statement was unrelated to the tenets I'd agree, i..e no true socialist would murder someone.

    But this is closer to a vegan eating a Big Mac.

    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
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