Ach, I've accidentally hit a vein that now I want to explore a little more. CW for death of a loved one, which maybe seems wild after that previous post, but life's messy which is one my points.
Haven't talked about this On Here, but my grandmother passed last week. She'd been in decline for years - it wasn't a surprise, but that only did so much mitigate the grief.
The hospice facility let us know when she was entering her last days, and we were lucky to have enough time to get the family together to come say our goodbyes. She was entirely non-verbal, dementia had taken all her words. First time we visited, she recognized us, pulled our hands close to her face - I'm glad we could give her some comfort, but part of me was horrified that enough of Her was still inside to recognize us, that she was trapped somewhere in there.
Second time we visited, the facility was changing out her mattress. While that was happening, she had to be relocated to a couch in the facility's theater room. We sat on the floor by her side while she laid on that couch, in and out of consciousness. There were a dozen other patients in the room. One of them could only see me from the back, could only see my long hair, asked my mom "Is that a man or a woman?" Because why shouldn't weird shit intrude on grief?
But the thing I want to get to is, the TV was showing Sound of Music. My grandmother's favorite movie of all time. And when we got our time that day to see her, it was the movie's final performance of "Edelweiss," her favorite song.
And I was sitting next to my dying grandmother, holding her hand, while her favorite song from her favorite movie HAPPENED to be on screen. It was sheer, unadulterated coincidence - her in that room instead of her own, that movie on, that scene.
It was so fucking dumb.
It didn't make sense. It wasn't logical. There was coincidence on top of happenstance, it was all so pat and tidy, it wasn't "earned," it was the way the world DOESN'T work.
But it did.
And I dunno, maybe impossible moments are better than real ones.
the best part of Terminator 1 is the very beginning
Arnold Schwarzenegger, that giant slab of muscle, walks naked and unashamed into your bar and you try and start shit with him?
also good is the waitress that sees him and is like "oh nice"
T1 was punk Bill Paxton outside the observatory, T2 was in the biker bar.
dangit
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
I was going to make my own pithy post about how we define "smart" movies versus "dumb" movies but I don't think I can follow that so I'm just gonna say that I think the thematic and emotional stuff in Terminator 2, thumbs up and all, is better than the equivalent in almost every single Marvel movie and I don't think it's close
I was going to make my own pithy post about how we define "smart" movies versus "dumb" movies but I don't think I can follow that so I'm just gonna say that I think the thematic and emotional stuff in Terminator 2, thumbs up and all, is better than the equivalent in almost every single Marvel movie and I don't think it's close
I know the Marvel movies are an easy dunk (tho they kinda deserve it), and yet now I'm thinking of what the closest points in any of those films are to me, and it's probably Guardians 2? But that movie has way more moving parts to resolve where T2's arc is really straightforward, to T2's benefit
I was going to make my own pithy post about how we define "smart" movies versus "dumb" movies but I don't think I can follow that so I'm just gonna say that I think the thematic and emotional stuff in Terminator 2, thumbs up and all, is better than the equivalent in almost every single Marvel movie and I don't think it's close
every single mcu movie, to be specific, the raimi spider-man movies have multiple contenders
That being said I have a lot of nostalgia tied up in Terminator 2 and it's still sort of the platonic ideal of what a great action movie is, to me? So it's really hard for me to be objective about it
The whole Arnold's role reveal in the mall and the following fight is probably the coolest movie moment from my childhood and I was completely unspoiled on it. It's too bad it's basically impossible to not be spoiled on it these days.
That being said I have a lot of nostalgia tied up in Terminator 2 and it's still sort of the platonic ideal of what a great action movie is, to me? So it's really hard for me to be objective about it
The whole Arnold's role reveal in the mall and the following fight is probably the coolest movie moment from my childhood and I was completely unspoiled on it. It's too bad it's basically impossible to not be spoiled on it these days.
It's enough time passed that even the cultural osmosis of the quotable lines may have shifted... if you were to, say, teach a college film course today... perhaps...
Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
edited August 2021
Theres a wing place near my house where the quality of the food varies incredibly based on who is working that day. If the owner is there, it's going to be some of the best wings I've ever had. If he isn't, they might be terrible, "I should have just made it at home." And there is a Wing stop and a BWW. If I get to choose, I will do Hood wings every single time, because even if it misses, there is effort put in. Like attempt at something. The BWW are solid "ok" every time, i know what I am going to get.
I like things that are less focused on being good and more focused on being their own thing. It's better if it's good, but sometimes its bad in a weird way and that above all, interesting.
Bloods End on
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astrobstrdSo full of mercy...Registered Userregular
I feel jealous of the people who saw T2 without rabidly consuming the amount of the marketing content around it first. Every ad and presser instantly spoiled the reveal.
Terminator 1 and/or 2 are extremely fuckin stupid?
It is very stupid for a teenager to bond with a robot and teach it 90s slang and the robot gives a thumbs up as it is lowered into molten metal at a smelting plant that is somehow fully functional without any employees.
Does it rule? Yes. Absolutely yes! Is it stupid? You bet your sweet bippy.
Smart things can be bad, stupid things can be (and often are!) good, it's not an insult to acknowledge that something is what it is. Catch me on the right day and I'll have a whole THING about how "People mistaking fun things for smart things is part of what has so thoroughly befuckened modern cinema," but I don't think any of us want that.
It rules and is simultaneously not dumb. We bond with anthropomorphized things all the time, people marry them. A child desperate for attention and love from a traditional family unit makes brilliant sense, especially a hyper-protective force of nature who will do anything to ensure that child is Ok. The thumbs-up is a perfect conclusion to that bonding arc, of John teaching a killing machine to find its humanity, without having a mushy sentimental monologue that the machine just can't provide. Sarah Connor's transformation is flawless as well. Every step makes sense, every setpiece perfectly setup. The killer doesn't catch up with them because they keep making mistakes, it catches up with them because its a ruthless killing machine with access to a police network.
If you said any Terminator after 2 was dumb and potentially fun I could (maybe) understand, but T2 is a flawless and clever action film.
I wrote two lengthy pieces explaining my position. You can disagree with me without either of us being wrong, we're adults.
I also personally hold the view that nothing is flawless, that a film can be perfect and still flawed, and that perfection often comes FROM flaws, but that's more of a philosophical thing I guess
I feel like that's a reductive take on what's going on in Terminator 2, but this isn't a hill I'm passionate enough to die on.
Oh, I was absolutely being pithy. My more robust take would just be kinda annoying, but James Cameron is more interested in spectacle than in coherent ideas or philosophies and that's completely fine because he's making spectacles
I think he has philosophy it's just they don't tend to line up with making a billion dollars which is also a skillset he has so when push comes to shove you make a billion dollars because going to the marianas trench is cooler than going to space.
Dumb is being used as a synonym for "unlikely" or "fantastical" in this thread and it's bugging me a bit more each time. A time traveling robot is not dumb. The safe dragging scene from Fast 5 is dumb. There's a large difference.
Dumb is being used as a synonym for "unlikely" or "fantastical" in this thread and it's bugging me a bit more each time. A time traveling robot is not dumb. The safe dragging scene from Fast 5 is dumb. There's a large difference.
Is there?
Like, seriously, what's the difference between those two fantastical things?
I always thought smart vs dumb in a movie mostly had to do with whether it was internally consistent or not.
The fast movies are dumb in the same way bond movies are dumb, they ratchet unbelievability in ways that are not consistent with previous films and the genre they are supposedly playing in.
Fury road is insane, but it's an insane world and tends to follow the rules it sets up.
Dumb is being used as a synonym for "unlikely" or "fantastical" in this thread and it's bugging me a bit more each time. A time traveling robot is not dumb. The safe dragging scene from Fast 5 is dumb. There's a large difference.
Is there?
Like, seriously, what's the difference between those two fantastical things?
The safe dragging scene defies the laws of physics. A time traveling robot does not.
Dumb is being used as a synonym for "unlikely" or "fantastical" in this thread and it's bugging me a bit more each time. A time traveling robot is not dumb. The safe dragging scene from Fast 5 is dumb. There's a large difference.
Is there?
Like, seriously, what's the difference between those two fantastical things?
Something that COULD be true under advanced science or magical rules isn't the same thing as being clearly idiotic under a real world physical system. Tone matters, the intent matters, etc. Primer and Bill & Ted are both about time travel, only the latter could be helpfully described as "dumb". Dumb is being overused to the point of somehow meaning "fun" or "I happen to like it", it's kind of smooshing the discussion into a featureless paste.
Careless or sloppy writing isn't the same thing as an irreverent tone and so on. Specific to the Fast movies, there are unlikely/ ridiculous things that happen because it's thrilling that they could happen (dragging a safe using a sports car, jumping between two buildings in a sports car) and unlikely things that happen because the writers are terrible at plotting (let's get a MacGuffin to track the guy... who keeps arriving in person to hamper our efforts to find HIM). I don't find it very enlightening to just say "it's dumb" for every category, over and over.
Dumb is being used as a synonym for "unlikely" or "fantastical" in this thread and it's bugging me a bit more each time. A time traveling robot is not dumb. The safe dragging scene from Fast 5 is dumb. There's a large difference.
Is there?
Like, seriously, what's the difference between those two fantastical things?
The safe dragging scene defies the laws of physics. A time traveling robot does not.
...wait hold on, are you sure about the time traveling robot not defying any laws of physics
Dumb is being used as a synonym for "unlikely" or "fantastical" in this thread and it's bugging me a bit more each time. A time traveling robot is not dumb. The safe dragging scene from Fast 5 is dumb. There's a large difference.
Is there?
Like, seriously, what's the difference between those two fantastical things?
The safe dragging scene defies the laws of physics. A time traveling robot does not.
...wait hold on, are you sure about the time traveling robot not defying any laws of physics
Look I can't tell you how I know a time traveling robot is possible just accept that I know it's real.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Dumb is being used as a synonym for "unlikely" or "fantastical" in this thread and it's bugging me a bit more each time. A time traveling robot is not dumb. The safe dragging scene from Fast 5 is dumb. There's a large difference.
Is there?
Like, seriously, what's the difference between those two fantastical things?
The safe dragging scene defies the laws of physics. A time traveling robot does not.
...wait hold on, are you sure about the time traveling robot not defying any laws of physics
The robot was covered in living flesh, perfectly reasonable
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Being able to slap a gunnysack of flesh on your killer robot and thus get around the "meat only" time travel rule seems pretty hinky to me like fuck that man if you got a pacemaker and you go into the time machine then your pacemakerless heart should explode on the other end
Which is why it works! It feels like a real breathing world even as the people eater fiddles with his nipple ring, polecats wave back and forth like some sort of demented car-plant and the bullet farmer uses bullets as replacement teeth.
It's just fantastic and damnit now I need to rewatch it and also Dredd and then complain we didn't get more Dredd
I feel like the really fun part about stuff like a lot of Terminator 2, the Fast 5 safe scene, and the big car builds in Fury Road is that they're practical effects enhanced by well-applied movie magic
Which is to say, not only is there a ton of craft involved in their creation, but the over-the-top shit happening has a real kinetic believability to it
It allows for suspension of disbelief by way of making brain go "Fuck yeah, this rules and also looks/feels plausible"
This conversation, for whatever reason, is making me think of the duel from The Princess Bride. Is it a realistic sword fight? Not at all. Do they use any of the techniques from the period sword masters they mention? Nope. Is it, intelligent, in a life and death duel to fight with your off hand? No way. Is it likely for BOTH fighters to both decide to use their off hands? Slim to none.
Is it, one of my favorite sword fights in a film and an absolutely perfect fit for that film? A million percent.
Basically, things need to be assessed within the context of the larger film. Taken in isolation well, they are often “dumb” when viewed through that lens.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
The difference between smart movies and dumb movies is just whether the movie is self-conscious about believing what they're showing you.
Marvel movies are smart because they constantly ironically wink to remind you that all this superhero nonsense sure is stupid and weird, huh? I mean it's cool, but also it's lame and silly. We'll be sure to make a joke each time something fantastic happens to remind you that we only like all this superhero stuff ironically since it's really for kids.
The Fast and the Furious movies are dumb because they fully commit to their world and believe in it and do not give a shit if you think they're cool or not for it.
this is reductive as fuck but when people talk about movies being "smart" or "dumb" this is almost always the impression I get. movies get called smart if they're self-aware of being a movie about a fantastic premise, and movies get called dumb if they just fully commit to the fantastic premise.
I reserve "dumb" for anything that you "have to turn your brain off for." It's stuff that you can enjoy in the moment, but if you spend even a bit thinking about, it falls apart. Stuff like the safe dragging scene are cool action setpieces, but if you put anything thought into the the physics behind what's going on, it doesn't work in the slightest.
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The hospice facility let us know when she was entering her last days, and we were lucky to have enough time to get the family together to come say our goodbyes. She was entirely non-verbal, dementia had taken all her words. First time we visited, she recognized us, pulled our hands close to her face - I'm glad we could give her some comfort, but part of me was horrified that enough of Her was still inside to recognize us, that she was trapped somewhere in there.
Second time we visited, the facility was changing out her mattress. While that was happening, she had to be relocated to a couch in the facility's theater room. We sat on the floor by her side while she laid on that couch, in and out of consciousness. There were a dozen other patients in the room. One of them could only see me from the back, could only see my long hair, asked my mom "Is that a man or a woman?" Because why shouldn't weird shit intrude on grief?
But the thing I want to get to is, the TV was showing Sound of Music. My grandmother's favorite movie of all time. And when we got our time that day to see her, it was the movie's final performance of "Edelweiss," her favorite song.
And I was sitting next to my dying grandmother, holding her hand, while her favorite song from her favorite movie HAPPENED to be on screen. It was sheer, unadulterated coincidence - her in that room instead of her own, that movie on, that scene.
It was so fucking dumb.
It didn't make sense. It wasn't logical. There was coincidence on top of happenstance, it was all so pat and tidy, it wasn't "earned," it was the way the world DOESN'T work.
But it did.
And I dunno, maybe impossible moments are better than real ones.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
dangit
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
I know the Marvel movies are an easy dunk (tho they kinda deserve it), and yet now I'm thinking of what the closest points in any of those films are to me, and it's probably Guardians 2? But that movie has way more moving parts to resolve where T2's arc is really straightforward, to T2's benefit
every single mcu movie, to be specific, the raimi spider-man movies have multiple contenders
The whole Arnold's role reveal in the mall and the following fight is probably the coolest movie moment from my childhood and I was completely unspoiled on it. It's too bad it's basically impossible to not be spoiled on it these days.
It's enough time passed that even the cultural osmosis of the quotable lines may have shifted... if you were to, say, teach a college film course today... perhaps...
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I like things that are less focused on being good and more focused on being their own thing. It's better if it's good, but sometimes its bad in a weird way and that above all, interesting.
It rules and is simultaneously not dumb. We bond with anthropomorphized things all the time, people marry them. A child desperate for attention and love from a traditional family unit makes brilliant sense, especially a hyper-protective force of nature who will do anything to ensure that child is Ok. The thumbs-up is a perfect conclusion to that bonding arc, of John teaching a killing machine to find its humanity, without having a mushy sentimental monologue that the machine just can't provide. Sarah Connor's transformation is flawless as well. Every step makes sense, every setpiece perfectly setup. The killer doesn't catch up with them because they keep making mistakes, it catches up with them because its a ruthless killing machine with access to a police network.
If you said any Terminator after 2 was dumb and potentially fun I could (maybe) understand, but T2 is a flawless and clever action film.
I also personally hold the view that nothing is flawless, that a film can be perfect and still flawed, and that perfection often comes FROM flaws, but that's more of a philosophical thing I guess
I think he has philosophy it's just they don't tend to line up with making a billion dollars which is also a skillset he has so when push comes to shove you make a billion dollars because going to the marianas trench is cooler than going to space.
Oh absolutely. Doof warrior? Dumb. Doof warrior? Brilliant
Is there?
Like, seriously, what's the difference between those two fantastical things?
The fast movies are dumb in the same way bond movies are dumb, they ratchet unbelievability in ways that are not consistent with previous films and the genre they are supposedly playing in.
Fury road is insane, but it's an insane world and tends to follow the rules it sets up.
dumb and dumber vs dumb and dumberer
The safe dragging scene defies the laws of physics. A time traveling robot does not.
Something that COULD be true under advanced science or magical rules isn't the same thing as being clearly idiotic under a real world physical system. Tone matters, the intent matters, etc. Primer and Bill & Ted are both about time travel, only the latter could be helpfully described as "dumb". Dumb is being overused to the point of somehow meaning "fun" or "I happen to like it", it's kind of smooshing the discussion into a featureless paste.
Careless or sloppy writing isn't the same thing as an irreverent tone and so on. Specific to the Fast movies, there are unlikely/ ridiculous things that happen because it's thrilling that they could happen (dragging a safe using a sports car, jumping between two buildings in a sports car) and unlikely things that happen because the writers are terrible at plotting (let's get a MacGuffin to track the guy... who keeps arriving in person to hamper our efforts to find HIM). I don't find it very enlightening to just say "it's dumb" for every category, over and over.
...wait hold on, are you sure about the time traveling robot not defying any laws of physics
Look I can't tell you how I know a time traveling robot is possible just accept that I know it's real.
The robot was covered in living flesh, perfectly reasonable
Maybe that doesn't count for anything, but that would be my perspective on things
There is so much shit that is daft in fury road.
Which is why it works! It feels like a real breathing world even as the people eater fiddles with his nipple ring, polecats wave back and forth like some sort of demented car-plant and the bullet farmer uses bullets as replacement teeth.
It's just fantastic and damnit now I need to rewatch it and also Dredd and then complain we didn't get more Dredd
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Which is to say, not only is there a ton of craft involved in their creation, but the over-the-top shit happening has a real kinetic believability to it
It allows for suspension of disbelief by way of making brain go "Fuck yeah, this rules and also looks/feels plausible"
This conversation, for whatever reason, is making me think of the duel from The Princess Bride. Is it a realistic sword fight? Not at all. Do they use any of the techniques from the period sword masters they mention? Nope. Is it, intelligent, in a life and death duel to fight with your off hand? No way. Is it likely for BOTH fighters to both decide to use their off hands? Slim to none.
Is it, one of my favorite sword fights in a film and an absolutely perfect fit for that film? A million percent.
Basically, things need to be assessed within the context of the larger film. Taken in isolation well, they are often “dumb” when viewed through that lens.
oh that's simple
shut up
Marvel movies are smart because they constantly ironically wink to remind you that all this superhero nonsense sure is stupid and weird, huh? I mean it's cool, but also it's lame and silly. We'll be sure to make a joke each time something fantastic happens to remind you that we only like all this superhero stuff ironically since it's really for kids.
The Fast and the Furious movies are dumb because they fully commit to their world and believe in it and do not give a shit if you think they're cool or not for it.
this is reductive as fuck but when people talk about movies being "smart" or "dumb" this is almost always the impression I get. movies get called smart if they're self-aware of being a movie about a fantastic premise, and movies get called dumb if they just fully commit to the fantastic premise.
So shut your brain off and enjoy the movie, nerd!