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[Metroid] Expecting Prime 4? TOO BAD PRIME 1 REMASTER TIME.

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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Hell, there were people in here talking about a certain shinespark puzzle in Ferenia, and there were environmental texture clues on the following
    Where to start the speed booster, farthest stature
    hq5zv47h7hug.png

    Where you jump to be able to walljump to the level above, wider archway
    wnfxbbk8jtul.png

    Where you press L to turn into a ball, white light line
    pnb6h5qj0htk.png

    jungleroomx on
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Hell, there were people in here talking about a certain shinespark puzzle in Ferenia, and there were environmental texture clues on the following
    Where to start the speed booster, farthest stature
    hq5zv47h7hug.png

    Where you jump to be able to walljump to the level above, wider archway
    wnfxbbk8jtul.png

    Where you press L to turn into a ball, white light line
    pnb6h5qj0htk.png
    For that one, I started at the platform below, sprinted/stopped at the door, then jumped up, shot the blocks out, bomb rolled over, then bomb/boosted up. Took me forever though.

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  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Krathoon wrote: »

    The game fucking tells you to do this explicitly early on. Not the game's fault he wasn't paying attention.... (edit: lol as I read further, it looks like a lot of people pointed out how much of an idiot he was and he's just plugging his ears to it)

    Edit 2: lol


    Hey, Jaffe... guess what, I'm 39... you're still an idiot...

    Also, on the surface level I might have been inclined to agree if he wasn't just wrong about Dread. I agree that non-telegraphed hidden blocks are garbage and bad game design. But Dread's are quite well telegraphed and easy to find. And the game certainly doesn't keep it a secret that these blocks exist either. This isn't Metroid 1 "bomb literally everywhere because the hidden blocks are nonsensically placed and also there are invisible passages" levels of bad. It's always pretty easy to tell where a destructible block is gonna be and all it takes is a missile or bomb to confirm that it's there (if not just a regular shot). Maaaaaaaybe they could give you Scan Pulse early on like Samus Returns did, but that's a whatever...

    Also also:
    Jaffe took his feelings to Twitter where he suggested that modern developers are too obsessed with making difficult games that he believes alienates players.

    No, modern devs are too obsessed with making games easy as hell because they are afraid of alienating players. Dread was refreshingly difficult (but fair). I mean, I think back to this:


    You don't have to baby your players. Even if she wasn't super good at the game she still was having fun and stuck it out enough to beat it. I always feel there's a difference between difficult and punishing and that's where some devs get caught up.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Jaffe is just trolling for attention, don't give it to him.

    I'll admit I've been guilty of that in the past as well. It's hard not to go 'Look at this chode' when he starts threatening Sony about "knowing where the bodies are buried." but he just wants eyeballs on his dumbass opinions so he still feels relevant.

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  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    The first part of that tweet, absent context, is definitely true. The second part, well... I'll post on these forums until I die or something changes. It's perfectly civil most of the time and the way we achieved it was iron-fisted, zero-tolerance human moderation.

    If you wanted a curated experience, go somewhere curated. Stop bitching that the internet at large and social media in general isn't tailored to your generational needs.

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  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    Jaffe is just trolling for attention, don't give it to him.

    I'll admit I've been guilty of that in the past as well. It's hard not to go 'Look at this chode' when he starts threatening Sony about "knowing where the bodies are buried." but he just wants eyeballs on his dumbass opinions so he still feels relevant.

    Yeah, I don't plan on bothering with actually arguing with him. But it was such a stupid point and this guy is supposed to be a game developer -_-

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  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    I always feel there's a difference between difficult and punishing and that's where some devs get caught up.

    Difficult is "the enemies one hit kill you"
    Punishing is "and you start at your last hard save"

    Dread got it right. I feel like once the game has been out a little longer the people who love the game for what it is, instead of being the flavor of the month, will be clowning on the EMMIs relentlessly

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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I finally figured out how I want to properly describe Dread.

    Metroid Dread feels like a game the developers got extremely good at playtesting the game, and kept tweaking it harder, and harder, and harder. More enemy health, more player damage, tighter counter windows, things like that. And that is a dangerous trap to fall into. Yes, I'm sure the game is braindead easy for you who is running it the 20th time and has every parry window time memorized. I almost wonder if that's how the E.M.M.I "counter" came into being. They kept tweaking the time and tweaking the window, but playtesters were still able to hit the counter pretty regularly, until they finally settled on a "counter" that is 100% random in nature.

    I beat the game. I liked it. I'm actually tempted to try this hard mode sub 4 hour playthrough to get those rewards. At the same time, everything about Ferenia makes me not want to ever play this game again.

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Jaffe took his feelings to Twitter where he suggested that modern developers are too obsessed with making difficult games that he believes alienates players.
    If he hasn't apologised for the Valkyrie fights in GoW, then I guess hypocrisy is still in fashion.
    (I died to those winged -uh, classy ladies way more than anything in Dread)

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    I finally figured out how I want to properly describe Dread.

    Metroid Dread feels like a game the developers got extremely good at playtesting the game, and kept tweaking it harder, and harder, and harder. More enemy health, more player damage, tighter counter windows, things like that. And that is a dangerous trap to fall into. Yes, I'm sure the game is braindead easy for you who is running it the 20th time and has every parry window time memorized. I almost wonder if that's how the E.M.M.I "counter" came into being. They kept tweaking the time and tweaking the window, but playtesters were still able to hit the counter pretty regularly, until they finally settled on a "counter" that is 100% random in nature.

    I beat the game. I liked it. I'm actually tempted to try this hard mode sub 4 hour playthrough to get those rewards. At the same time, everything about Ferenia makes me not want to ever play this game again.

    I could see that being the case. It's definitely on the harder end. It should 100% have had more difficulty tiers.

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue The studying beaver That beaver sure loves studying!Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    Jaffe took his feelings to Twitter where he suggested that modern developers are too obsessed with making difficult games that he believes alienates players.
    If he hasn't apologised for the Valkyrie fights in GoW, then I guess hypocrisy is still in fashion.
    (I died to those winged -uh, classy ladies way more than anything in Dread)

    David Jaffe had nothing to do with God of War 2018. The last thing David Jaffe worked on was Drawn to Death. He can shut up.

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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    There was a time when game difficulty was dead and every single game was a mindless slog that required zero effort.

    It was a period of time where the only thing that existed were lazy ass attempts at "difficulty" by just ratcheting up numbers and thinking that's what makes a hard game enjoyable.

    That was the time period I was in to multiplayer games, because it was the only fair challenge I was able to get anywhere in video gaming, whatsoever.

    I am thankful we are no longer in that time period.

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  • TheGerbilTheGerbil Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    Jaffe took his feelings to Twitter where he suggested that modern developers are too obsessed with making difficult games that he believes alienates players.
    If he hasn't apologised for the Valkyrie fights in GoW, then I guess hypocrisy is still in fashion.
    (I died to those winged -uh, classy ladies way more than anything in Dread)

    David Jaffe had nothing to do with God of War 2018. The last thing David Jaffe worked on was Drawn to Death. He can shut up.

    Also I think he only did GoW 1, not any of the sequels. Could be wrong though.

  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    I finally figured out how I want to properly describe Dread.

    Metroid Dread feels like a game the developers got extremely good at playtesting the game, and kept tweaking it harder, and harder, and harder. More enemy health, more player damage, tighter counter windows, things like that. And that is a dangerous trap to fall into. Yes, I'm sure the game is braindead easy for you who is running it the 20th time and has every parry window time memorized. I almost wonder if that's how the E.M.M.I "counter" came into being. They kept tweaking the time and tweaking the window, but playtesters were still able to hit the counter pretty regularly, until they finally settled on a "counter" that is 100% random in nature.

    I beat the game. I liked it. I'm actually tempted to try this hard mode sub 4 hour playthrough to get those rewards. At the same time, everything about Ferenia makes me not want to ever play this game again.

    Could be the opposite. They built the game, and then the staffing issues / lack of management accountability means they weren't able to tweak the difficulty back...

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  • DrovekDrovek Registered User regular
    I finally figured out how I want to properly describe Dread.

    Metroid Dread feels like a game the developers got extremely good at playtesting the game, and kept tweaking it harder, and harder, and harder. More enemy health, more player damage, tighter counter windows, things like that. And that is a dangerous trap to fall into. Yes, I'm sure the game is braindead easy for you who is running it the 20th time and has every parry window time memorized. I almost wonder if that's how the E.M.M.I "counter" came into being. They kept tweaking the time and tweaking the window, but playtesters were still able to hit the counter pretty regularly, until they finally settled on a "counter" that is 100% random in nature.

    I beat the game. I liked it. I'm actually tempted to try this hard mode sub 4 hour playthrough to get those rewards. At the same time, everything about Ferenia makes me not want to ever play this game again.

    I'd probably think that the EMMI counter is less about keeping it from being too easy and more about the fact that you're really supposed to feel "lucky" to get it. You should not get caught by the EMMI or it's almost assuredly death unless you get lucky with the random dice roll.

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  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Personally I think the counter is in because one hit KOs are bullshit but well technically you can counter it so it's not a one hit KO

    But the whole point is you don't fight the EMMI so I almost kinda wish they'd just left it out entirely.

  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I don't really hate the E.M.M.I counter. In fact, I think they did a great job in branding it as a game over state that you can roll the dice on and get out of. But... it's still a dice roll. A one frame window you can't react to, you just hope you get lucky. It's luck. Not skill. Like I said, I'm mostly OK with that. That being said, the Ferenia E.M.M.I, I was getting real fucking salty with. Where the perceived way to get past it was to either hope it initially spawns behind you... or hope you get lucky and hit that dice roll. I was really starting to sour on the counter concept with that one.

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  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    Personally I think the counter is in because one hit KOs are bullshit but well technically you can counter it so it's not a one hit KO

    But the whole point is you don't fight the EMMI so I almost kinda wish they'd just left it out entirely.

    One of my big issues with the EMMI is that the SA-X in Fusion had a similar function but did it without the one hit kill. The SA-X catching up led to some frantic chase sequences. An EMMI catching up led to a shrug of the soldiers and some grumbling.

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  • FuriousJodoFuriousJodo Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    But if you land that counter on the EMMI it feels pretty good.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    EMMI are so much better than the chase sequences in Ori.

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  • LJDouglasLJDouglas Registered User regular
    Finally finished Dread and I think it might be my least like of the 2D Metroids I've played. There's nothing will annoy me quicker in a game than the controls not behaving the way I expect them to. It's a petty thing, but having the aim controls for the antiEMMI cannon be to rotate the joystick around in a circle, rather than just pointing up or down as the third person over the shoulder perspective would suggest is just not something i could ever get to feel natural. The whole melee counter system bugged me too, probably just my crappy old man reflexes, but against any enemy where it would matter it felt that I had to trigger the counter before you even got the flash to have it work. Going back a couple pages I got held up on the first breakable wall section, the area you come to doesn't have any real indicators that it's a piece of breakable terrain. The wall section is undamaged, and while there's an obvious corridor above it, you've already encountered corridors you have to access from a different room before, so I assumed that it was just a preview of another area I'd get to later. If they'd stuck a wall crawling enemy on the breakable section, or scuffed it up to make it look damaged I might have tried it, but having a loading screen tip telling you to that some walls are breakable isn't exactly a huge amount of signalling that the critical path requires you to shoot this one roof section in a random room in the first hour of gameplay.

    Speaking of loading screen tips, again petty, but after dieing to the same almost impossible to evade boss attack 10 times in a row, seeing the "All boss mechanics can be dodged" tip pop up does feel like rubbing salt in the wound. Also had quite a lot of instances of the controls just straight not doing what I wanted, in fairness to the game i think my joy-cons might be on their way out, but the game could be extremely pick on if you'd jumped in a way that it would let you spin jump, or wall jump. Took a lot of damage from trying to jump out of the way only apparently I wasn't pushing the joystick properly so I get the useless jump rather than literally the only jump you'd want to use in combat. Funnily enough I actually found the last boss to be one of the easiest in game, still died a fair bit, but at least understood why, and his counter windows seemed reasonably generous, most of the other bosses were huge screen filling things and I had no idea where to look to see where their counterable abilities were coming from, with the last boss there were all clearly animated. That said the game's habit of sometimes pulling the camera in close for an uninteractive cut scene but also pulling in close for a QTE melee counter was not appreciated, there were times I thought I'd won the fight only to die because *surprise* you didn't hit the counter button when you though the boss had died.

    Glad to hear other people have been having fun with the game, but I've really bounced off of it hard, won't be returning it, but won't be playing it again any time soon either.

  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    EMMI are so much better than the chase sequences in Ori.
    Possibly, but there you're at least having to make use of all those incredible move abilities and it accentuates the best parts of the game, it's just a little too punishing. Here, the EMMI encounters feel so different to what I do in the game the other 90% of the time, but you get better checkpointing.

    Not playing Metroid games very often, I was pretty disappointed with the jumping, and only the mild absurdity of the infinite jumping alleviated my least favorite double jump ability in recent memory.

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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    the double jump is just the series' traditional infinite jump powerup but you can only do one jump so it felt fine to me, as someone already perfectly used to the space jump's bullshit

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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    EMMI are so much better than the chase sequences in Ori.

    Yeah, this. My least favorite part of the entire game series.

  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Woo beat hard mode: 3:23:56.
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  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    My biggest complaint about Dread are the controls. There should be an option/control profile that puts:

    Missiles only on R1
    Grapple Beam only on R2
    Run boost only on L1 or L2

    The existing button combinations are needlessly complex. They don’t add anything to the fun factor.

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  • AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    Oh my God you guys I fucking did it! I beat the sonofabitch!

    Turns out my TV wasn't on Game Mode so there was a bit of lag on my button presses! I found out by playing Golf Story and I couldn't hit ANY shot.

    Honestly he wasn't that hard once I turned it on. First try I got to his 3rd form. Second try I killed him. Feeling really good about it!

    Dude

    First, congrats!

    Second, what is it with you an accidentally handicapping yourself?

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Septus wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    EMMI are so much better than the chase sequences in Ori.
    Possibly, but there you're at least having to make use of all those incredible move abilities and it accentuates the best parts of the game, it's just a little too punishing. Here, the EMMI encounters feel so different to what I do in the game the other 90% of the time, but you get better checkpointing.

    Not playing Metroid games very often, I was pretty disappointed with the jumping, and only the mild absurdity of the infinite jumping alleviated my least favorite double jump ability in recent memory.

    I straight up gave up on Ori after the tree water thing.

    EMMI can be annoying, certainly, but you have multiple options for dealing with them as long as you don't forget your full range of abilities.

    That said, I 100% feel they should be handled with a difficulty slider. I also would hate to be using the joycons when dealing with them.

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    There is a difficulty selector.

    Normal and Hard.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    There is a difficulty selector.

    Normal and Hard.

    Hard only unlocks after you beat the game on normal. You don't get a difficulty choice when you start out.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Septus wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    EMMI are so much better than the chase sequences in Ori.
    Possibly, but there you're at least having to make use of all those incredible move abilities and it accentuates the best parts of the game, it's just a little too punishing. Here, the EMMI encounters feel so different to what I do in the game the other 90% of the time, but you get better checkpointing.

    Not playing Metroid games very often, I was pretty disappointed with the jumping, and only the mild absurdity of the infinite jumping alleviated my least favorite double jump ability in recent memory.

    I straight up gave up on Ori after the tree water thing.

    EMMI can be annoying, certainly, but you have multiple options for dealing with them as long as you don't forget your full range of abilities.

    That said, I 100% feel they should be handled with a difficulty slider. I also would hate to be using the joycons when dealing with them.

    I started the game with the joycons and lolnoped out of that right quick. This is the first game where I've just straight up hated the joycons.

    With a pro controller, it feels pretty good, though I wish missiles were a toggle instead of having to hold down the trigger.

    Also, lol at Jaffe comparing the difficulty of Metroid Dread to fucking Returnal. I have played Returnal. Returnal is a good friend of mine. Metroid Dread, sir, is no Returnal.

    (I actually gave up on Returnal at the third boss, whereas I'll definitely play Dread to the end. I might even have a more favorable opinion on it after I beat this last fucking EMMI.)

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  • AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    It's weird how subjective difficulty can be. I found Returnal to be pretty straightforward if you get the right weapon (Hollowseeker with Portal) and the bosses I all beat on my first try. Metroid Dread, IMO, is a far more challenging game than Returnal is.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Okay, I have determined that the thing that really annoys me about this game is that it keeps placing you in situations that are extremely difficult, and that you can't get avoid and come back to later.

    Super Metroid, if you hit a difficult boss, you could just nope out and go find for more items or something. Or just run around and shoot stuff for funsies. Metroid Dread likes to stick you in an area where the only escape is through an EMMI zone or through a tough boss.

    Case in point, I just got part an EMMI zone I was stuck in. There was nowhere to go but back through this EMMI. I finally got through, after probably 30 minutes of just run-die-run-die-run again. I emerged with 1 health because I had to use every ounce of stealth I had. And it dumped me straight into a boss fight. So now when I die, I respawn before a boss room with 1 health.

    That's just legit bad design, sorry.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Okay, I have determined that the thing that really annoys me about this game is that it keeps placing you in situations that are extremely difficult, and that you can't get avoid and come back to later.

    Super Metroid, if you hit a difficult boss, you could just nope out and go find for more items or something. Or just run around and shoot stuff for funsies. Metroid Dread likes to stick you in an area where the only escape is through an EMMI zone or through a tough boss.

    Case in point, I just got part an EMMI zone I was stuck in. There was nowhere to go but back through this EMMI. I finally got through, after probably 30 minutes of just run-die-run-die-run again. I emerged with 1 health because I had to use every ounce of stealth I had. And it dumped me straight into a boss fight. So now when I die, I respawn before a boss room with 1 health.

    That's just legit bad design, sorry.

    I honestly didn't realize you didn't respawn with full health. I agree that's bad design.

  • TcheldorTcheldor Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Okay, I have determined that the thing that really annoys me about this game is that it keeps placing you in situations that are extremely difficult, and that you can't get avoid and come back to later.

    Super Metroid, if you hit a difficult boss, you could just nope out and go find for more items or something. Or just run around and shoot stuff for funsies. Metroid Dread likes to stick you in an area where the only escape is through an EMMI zone or through a tough boss.

    Case in point, I just got part an EMMI zone I was stuck in. There was nowhere to go but back through this EMMI. I finally got through, after probably 30 minutes of just run-die-run-die-run again. I emerged with 1 health because I had to use every ounce of stealth I had. And it dumped me straight into a boss fight. So now when I die, I respawn before a boss room with 1 health.

    That's just legit bad design, sorry.

    There're usually health refill stations next to bosses.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Tcheldor wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Okay, I have determined that the thing that really annoys me about this game is that it keeps placing you in situations that are extremely difficult, and that you can't get avoid and come back to later.

    Super Metroid, if you hit a difficult boss, you could just nope out and go find for more items or something. Or just run around and shoot stuff for funsies. Metroid Dread likes to stick you in an area where the only escape is through an EMMI zone or through a tough boss.

    Case in point, I just got part an EMMI zone I was stuck in. There was nowhere to go but back through this EMMI. I finally got through, after probably 30 minutes of just run-die-run-die-run again. I emerged with 1 health because I had to use every ounce of stealth I had. And it dumped me straight into a boss fight. So now when I die, I respawn before a boss room with 1 health.

    That's just legit bad design, sorry.

    There're usually health refill stations next to bosses.

    Yes, usually!

    It wasn't a super hard boss, to be fair, and what I had to do was just kill an enemy without getting hit, wait for it to respawn, wash rinse repeat a bunch of times until I maxed out my health.

    It's not a huge issue, and it's still mostly a great game, there are just little obnoxious bits that keep cropping up.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    There is a difficulty selector.

    Normal and Hard.

    Hard only unlocks after you beat the game on normal. You don't get a difficulty choice when you start out.

    That’s the joke.png

    AbsoluteZero
  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Bit more time into Prime 3 today. Man, what a long game! =/

    I know I'm getting near the end, because A) I've seen the Dread easter egg ("Almost Complete!") and B) I'm really struggling to find scan points. I think I just got my last beam upgrade for now at least.

    I also learned something very important: Holy shit does my wireless sensor bar eat batteries like nobody's business! Like, ignoring the fact it takes 4 batteries (6V) to run those two IR lights. I had gotten so used to the near infinite running time of everything else, that when I was in the middle of a friggin boss and my sensor bar kept cutting out instantly... very annoying.

    Technically this sucker has a DC adapter port on the back, but that kind of defeats the purpose a little. I'll pick up some more rechargable batteries tomorrow - today, I just scavenged some out of one of my gunpla.

    He/Him | "A boat is always safest in the harbor, but that’s not why we build boats." | "If you run, you gain one. If you move forward, you gain two." - Suletta Mercury, G-Witch
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    On the other hand

    GRAVITY SUIT MOTHERFUCKER WOOOOO

    This game is an emotional rollercoaster I tell you what.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."
    AbsoluteZeroMechMantisjungleroomxHappylilElfIncenjucarMNC DoverTalithVyolynceHedgethornLuca72NaphtaliWarlock82kime
  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    tbh I was doing my best to try and treat the EMMI rooms as "I'm going to die, a lot, until I know the room layout" and shrug rather than get frustrated

    I mean if I hit one where I know the room layout and keep dying I'm sure I'm going to get frustrated but I was trying to hold that off until it was me failing rather than me just not knowing what I'm even supposed to be doing.

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