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[Roguebook] It's like Slay the Spire with two playable heroes at once.

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    MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    This game definitely sounds like it needs the patches/dlc over time to become something really nice, ala StS. Hopefully there will be enough support by the player base to encourage the developers to continue updating it.

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    Ah_PookAh_Pook Registered User regular
    went up against Avatar of Mist for the first time just now with Aurora and Sorocco. I couldn't figure out what made him dissolve my cards? I thought it said when he dealt life damage, but he seemed to just do it every turn... He literally dissolved my entire deck, but I had enough Bleed and Frogs out that I got the win anyway 8-)

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    asofyeunasofyeun Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    there is a bug in this game where i want to click on something like a rune of sight but then the game does nothing and it can take 4-5 more clicks, clicking away and coming back, more clicking, and then finally i get to see a small pile of gold revealed in the corner of the map

    the game is fun though

    i've won a round with every combo so far

    angry ratwolf is pretty good

    edit: turtle is also good, Seifer said something insulting to Aurora and she just responded "Shut up, rat"

    asofyeun on
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    akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    I got this! It’s very pretty! I have very little idea what I’m doing!

    Haven’t been past the second chapter yet, but I’m on my… 3rd? 4th? run and I kicked chapter 1’s teeth in this time.

    I like the Alchemist. He’s neat.

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    Last SonLast Son Registered User regular
    Just beat epilogue 3.

    Aurora's energy generation and card draw are just insane if you get the right gems and/or relics. I was playing Aurora/Sorraco and between Aurora's card/energy engine and Sorraco's combo cards I was regularly playing 15+ cards per turn and just steam rolled everyone. The final boss was the one that makes all cards cost more which was a bit tricky but between my ability to gain block and a relic that doubled the damage of my first attack per turn I ground it down without a single death.

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    akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    I beat the third chapter boss. He had like 90 bleed on him. It was funny.

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    MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    I beat Epilogue 1 with Seifer/Sorocco. I never landed on a combo that cracked the game wide open, it was just a slugfest trying to play out enough block and damage each turn~

    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
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    Ah_PookAh_Pook Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    Last Son wrote: »
    Just beat epilogue 3.

    Aurora's energy generation and card draw are just insane if you get the right gems and/or relics. I was playing Aurora/Sorraco and between Aurora's card/energy engine and Sorraco's combo cards I was regularly playing 15+ cards per turn and just steam rolled everyone. The final boss was the one that makes all cards cost more which was a bit tricky but between my ability to gain block and a relic that doubled the damage of my first attack per turn I ground it down without a single death.

    Yea Aurora seems designed to break the game economy/go infinite. That's fun, but also kind of a weird thing to base a character around?

    Ah_Pook on
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    akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    a8q3enkzx2cr.jpg

    So yeah... About Aurora.

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    ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    akjak wrote: »
    I beat the third chapter boss. He had like 90 bleed on him. It was funny.
    Somewhat topical ...
    uw8uwm3eszyk.png
    Honestly, I think bleed is pretty broken and far too easy to build around effectively.

    I think I'm finished playing for a bit until they do some updating. That said, I have a big suspicion the game is never really going to be really for me either? I find the vast majority of fights are less of a nuanced grind like StS and more of an "better win quickly because like 5% of enemies in this game don't have scaling damage built in" (which makes no sense given how much longer the game takes to play a run, but here we are). I also think both last bosses are generally un-fun designs for the sort of game that this is, and "empty your deck" and "fill your hand with garbage" play out the same too, as an added layer of homogeny.

    Solid base, will be a favourite of many, and I hope they find a spirit and identity for the game that makes it shine.

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    akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    Is there a thing you can find that reveals the faeria wells? That ends a run pretty quick for me if I don't find... Like, any of them.

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Been looking for something to get me off Slay the Spire, so hoping Roguebook is it (Monster Train was not it)

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    Ah_PookAh_Pook Registered User regular
    Had to abandon a run just now where I was crushing because I had the Vaults are free but mandatory challenge activated and a rune of sight revealed a vault I couldn't get to after I had killed everything and used all my ink on the last stage. I activated it for funsies while I was walking to the boss, since I had forgotten about it. Felt bad man.

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    ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Ah_Pook wrote: »
    Had to abandon a run just now where I was crushing because I had the Vaults are free but mandatory challenge activated and a rune of sight revealed a vault I couldn't get to after I had killed everything and used all my ink on the last stage. I activated it for funsies while I was walking to the boss, since I had forgotten about it. Felt bad man.
    :|
    Suppose the same could happen with an elite if you had the L1 fight-y epilogue. That really sucks. Something to be aware of, I guess ...

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    WELP.

    @MNC Dover gave me Roguebook. So there's going to be some takes appearing in this thread.

    Blame him, not me!

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    MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    WELP.

    "MNC Dover" gave me Roguebook. So there's going to be some takes appearing in this thread.

    Blame him, not me!

    As long as your takes aren't too cynical, then I'm ok with it. We all forget that StS wasn't perfect when it first launched. Of course, we have no idea if Roguebook will get additional support to become something special.

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Zombie Penguin is like THE card game person. It's a public service for them to have the game to play.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    WELP.

    "MNC Dover" gave me Roguebook. So there's going to be some takes appearing in this thread.

    Blame him, not me!

    As long as your takes aren't too cynical, then I'm ok with it. We all forget that StS wasn't perfect when it first launched. Of course, we have no idea if Roguebook will get additional support to become something special.

    To that i'd point out that StS was in a very good state when it hit 1.0, and a lot of what's changed since then has been tuning. I dont think it was flawed at a deep mechanical level in the way Monster Train was (I still like that game, but it's draw mechanics are fundamentally broken, ontop of being opaque.)

    So far, the thing that's sticking out to me is where's fast mode? No subtitles on the opening is also a bit daft. Accessibility people! There's a few werid instances of needing to double click - like going to a shop, then having to click the npc to open the shop. UX is not very clear on what's stuff you shove into cards vs what's artifacts.

    I like the talent system. Not sure about drafting cards being hard locked to gold, but w/e.

    Just beat my first boss.

    Edit: Okay, wow, i do not like the "Thief randomly yanks an artifact" event. That's not cool game! Don't be taking control from a player like that.

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    ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    WELP.

    "MNC Dover" gave me Roguebook. So there's going to be some takes appearing in this thread.

    Blame him, not me!

    As long as your takes aren't too cynical, then I'm ok with it. We all forget that StS wasn't perfect when it first launched. Of course, we have no idea if Roguebook will get additional support to become something special.

    To that i'd point out that StS was in a very good state when it hit 1.0, and a lot of what's changed since then has been tuning. I dont think it was flawed at a deep mechanical level in the way Monster Train was (I still like that game, but it's draw mechanics are fundamentally broken, ontop of being opaque.)

    So far, the thing that's sticking out to me is where's fast mode? No subtitles on the opening is also a bit daft. Accessibility people! There's a few werid instances of needing to double click - like going to a shop, then having to click the npc to open the shop. UX is not very clear on what's stuff you shove into cards vs what's artifacts.

    I like the talent system. Not sure about drafting cards being hard locked to gold, but w/e.

    Just beat my first boss.
    Let me tell you, this being absent sticks out like a massive sore thumb the longer you play the game. I believe that's partly because some of the animations being buggy exacerbates how slow things can feel at times, mind you, but still ...

    ArcticLancer on
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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Yeah there just feels like a lot of sluggish menus or things where one thing is still on screen when you're trying to do something underneath the menu. Needs another pass through.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Well, there goes my first run - dead to the second boss because i drafted a terrible pile of cards that didnt really work toghter becuase i have no idea what i'm doing

    ..I already dislike the Embellishment system. I swear, i see a system like that, i start itching to just cheat the resource in.

    Banter between heros is good. I do like the two hero system and the switching, though i could use more clarity on how much damage is incoming (this is a sin that StS does too, and i'd like it to have changed. Forcing players into doing math is ehh, and i always worry about acessbility issues).

    Anyway!

    I've just started a second run now, and i'm live on my stream. Come keep me company and offer commentary on my terrible misfortunes!

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    BloodsheedBloodsheed Registered User regular
    Banter between heros is good. I do like the two hero system and the switching, though i could use more clarity on how much damage is incoming (this is a sin that StS does too, and i'd like it to have changed. Forcing players into doing math is ehh, and i always worry about acessbility issues).

    Hover over the End Turn button, it will show how much damage is going to be done the next turn.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    Zombie Penguin is like THE card game person. It's a public service for them to have the game to play.

    Wait, i am?

    Shit when did i get a reputation. Help! People are expecting things of me! HELP!



    Here's the VoD of my first win. Ratlad and Stabbygirl.

    Inital impression is that a lot of the issues are UX issues. I really, really dont like the long term progression mechanics - but i think anyone who knows my rougelike opinions knows i *haaate* long term progression mechanics (Outside of like, complexity gating some unlocks). I do at least like that some of them replace your generic strikes and defends. Honestly, for this sort of game i'm increasingly thinking that having generic strikes and defends is a mistake - it's a good thing for simpliclty, but i think you could do more if you emphasized characters having unique starter decks rather than "A couple of unique cards and a bunch of generics" (and yes, i even include StS in that!)

    Talent system incentivizing deck size is cool. Hiding talents until you can pick them is just bad, it makes it a memorization issue - experience players will be fine, new players are punished, it's just not good.

    This run i really felt like i was mostly playing Ratlad and Stabbygirl was sort of along for the ride/sometimes i let her get punched in the face by mistake. Which... i'm gonna reserve judgement until i've got all the heros and multiple games under my belt, but 2 heros is obviously the coolest thing, why is a game state where you're just ignoring one hero a thing that happens?

    Wounds going into your deck for a character going down is pretty punitive, and i'm not sure how i feel about it. Seems like it'd have an outsized effect on card draw which is often already at a premium in these games.

    Random musing: These games that keep doing "You have 2 card pools you draft from" - i really want to see one that goes hard on this, to the point of you draft for each pool separately and you have 2 decks, not one combined deck. Then when you draw in battle you draw say six, with 3 drawn from each deck. (...i should really get back to working on the table top card game design i have where there's 4 decks that everyone collectively shares...)

    I'mma have some food and stuff and i'll probably stream another run Soon TM, and add more thoguhts.

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    MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    I think the talent tiers are randomized per run actually?

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    I think the talent tiers are randomized per run actually?

    ...That's even worse then to hide them.

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Doesn't Griftlands have the "two deck" thing, one for fighting and one for talking?

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    MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Doesn't Griftlands have the "two deck" thing, one for fighting and one for talking?

    Yup! And honestly, the negotiations are more fun than the fights.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
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    ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    I think the talent tiers are randomized per run actually?

    ...That's even worse then to hide them.
    Not only is it worse to hide them, but it makes an inherent declaration that all talents are effectively equal and that's very far from true.

    RE two characters one deck:
    Yep. was thinking similarly about how the game might've been better off having two decks that you have to draft into, because the card distribution per run really feels like it also tends to make a main hero and side hero, and that goes a little weird with the way you resurrect characters too. It's not necessarily a mechanical problem, just that it does feel weird or sub-optimal.

    Also a big agree on the talents that replace generic cards - the only thing I wasn't sure of and didn't like is that "basic deck of strikes and defends" is at least intended to be balanced, and where the talents say to swap out for a random card I wasn't sure if that was being preserved, but I also haven't experimented with that to know if they actually replace with an appropriate attack/defend type card. While I agree that "bland decks aren't necessarily the way to go," I think you're more on base with characters having different starting kits than having semi-random elements.

    TOPICALLY, I've been playing a shit-ton of One Step From Eden because: MegaMan Battle Network Roguelite? Sign me up! and it does this to great effect. Hard game, some other issues, but from the aspect of making characters feel genuinely unique to play it really nails it.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    So right now, i really just want to kill the UX people.

    Kill might be a bit too strong, but eeeeeeesh. There's so much hidden information that dosent need to be (What higher epilouge ranks do, hidden talents - for the record, i really dig the map exploring, though some hinting as to "there's stuff buried hereish" might be good).

    Or right now, I had the card Battletoads. Summon ten frogs! Being a clever fellow, i was like "ahaha! I'll buy the +1 spirit gem from the market and stick it on Battletoads for a sweet 20 power summon!" This gem and card combo is not valid

    Just... What. Come on. That's not even a notably devasating thing to be doing!

    Okay: So, as far as i can tell cards that summon allys and cardds that have Ally on them are DIFFERENT THINGS.

    Holy fucking shit. That's such a godawful own goal. How did that get past testing? why did that get past testing!? That's so unnecessarily confusing on so many levels! It makes so many interactions incredibly fuzzy!

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Do they even tell you what gems go with what cards? It just kept telling me I couldn't do it.

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    akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    I got super mad today because I sunk a TON of gold into the following:

    Bullfrog ally that costs 5, has 1 spirit that doubles every turn, 2 slots.

    I buy: gem where it starts the battle summoned, AND gem that gives it +4 spirit.

    I don’t know what happened, but it got summoned each battle *without* the extra spirit.

    So that was 375 gold wasted. >.<

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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Oooooo another StS like game eh? I'll keep an eye on this!

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    Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    If I liked monster train and didn’t like slay the spire, where does this fall between the two

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    MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    I think the talent tiers are randomized per run actually?

    ...That's even worse then to hide them.
    Not only is it worse to hide them, but it makes an inherent declaration that all talents are effectively equal and that's very far from true.

    I don't see how it's worse, actually? It means there's no memorization pressure. It just also means you don't plan your "build" at the start of a run. It's not much different than getting a StS boss chest every 6 cards -- you're picking between 3 buffs that are a random subset of a special buff category. Doesn't seem like a deckbuilder sin to me.

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    ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    akjak wrote: »
    I got super mad today because I sunk a TON of gold into the following:

    Bullfrog ally that costs 5, has 1 spirit that doubles every turn, 2 slots.

    I buy: gem where it starts the battle summoned, AND gem that gives it +4 spirit.

    I don’t know what happened, but it got summoned each battle *without* the extra spirit.

    So that was 375 gold wasted. >.<
    Yeah, I encountered this too at some point. AFAICT the "stars summoned" gem overrides any other slots on the card, which is probably a bug?

    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    I think the talent tiers are randomized per run actually?

    ...That's even worse then to hide them.
    Not only is it worse to hide them, but it makes an inherent declaration that all talents are effectively equal and that's very far from true.

    I don't see how it's worse, actually? It means there's no memorization pressure. It just also means you don't plan your "build" at the start of a run. It's not much different than getting a StS boss chest every 6 cards -- you're picking between 3 buffs that are a random subset of a special buff category. Doesn't seem like a deckbuilder sin to me.
    It's not a sin, it's just more bad design.
    The talents could - at the very least - be tiered into groups and have a more effectively known power curve. OR, at the very least, be a bit more appropriately placed so they can be intelligently leveraged. An excellent example of this is "get double daggers" being something you would probably want to know you have access to before you're picking your 36th card in act 3 where the talent is incredibly hit or miss. <_<

    Knight_ wrote: »
    If I liked monster train and didn’t like slay the spire, where does this fall between the two
    I'm not sure we ever dug into why you didn't like StS, so it's a bit hard to say offhand. Roguebook is pretty firmly in the middle of the two, playing out much closer to StS beat-by-beat, but with a much stronger "build-up-your-synergies" methodology of Monster Train, and a bit of card crafting that results in a more similar "Did you break your run?" endgame. At least that was the case by the time I had hit epilogue 8.

    ArcticLancer on
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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    So... More thoughts having won a couple of runs and lost one.

    UX issues definitely really annoy me. There's a lot of them. Just werid double clicks or stuff that's unclear/takes up a weridly small amount of the screen. Card crafting is an example.

    I'm still mad about the Ally thing. Just so ridic unclear. There's been a bunch of those interactions where i canot understand why something's not working, like upgrading a card to pierce thoguh... wich seems like it dosent work if it kills the target?

    The embellishments stuff is just... whoof.

    Okay, so mild rant here:

    The reason i hate this sort of thing is that by and large, it's just busy work. Doubly so given the dev's stated goal that this goes along side you increasing your Epilogue level. The vast majority of it is just Grind pages, get stronger, be pitched against things that... are also stronger. you're treadmilling.

    Some of it is interesting (replacing starting strikes, starting with treasure/gems etc), but this is stuff that could just be baked in or otherwise put behind a mild complexity gate (It's easy to forget that everyone will be new to a game once and overwhelming them is not good!).

    While i can understand wanting an option for the game to get easier for a subset of your players, i think the correct choice is having something like Hade's god mode availe for people who want it.

    I unno. I'm really anti grind like that in games, honestly (Even as i enjoy say, grinding in stuff like Destiny, the power curve is a lot more flat you know?).

    Right, rant over.

    I do really like the pairing heros mechanic, and i wish they leaned harder into that, it's very good. Map exploration is pretty fun! I think maybe it'd be improved if they did something so you had an indication that there was stuff on this tile without knowing what it was, as right now it's a little too guessing game. The thief event is just bad though - Very non-interactive boobytrap. Be dramatically improved if it was something you chose to engage in

    Though it does lead me to the idea of it'd be interesting if you could see trap tiles marked (Or even generally indicated, like "There's something in this radius") that triggered events like the theif (penalty and then reward when cleared) on the map. Basically, lean into stuff for exploring the map, because that's a really good element of the game and i like it a lot!

    I'm really not sure about the hero death mechanic. It feels pretty brutal and frankly, failure spirally, and chain deaths were what killed my last run. My inital impression is that it creates a "You're either alive or you loose" type feedback loop. But i also feel it's too early in the game for me to really have a "is this fun or not" type mechanic. Personally, i think i would have done some sort of relic that has a counter on it, and each death increments that counter, get past X and it's game over.

    Mahnmut: I think in this case it could be a lot more clear what you're getting into. The fact they're random and the power curve is all over the place (ontop of the already cited Linguistic issues) is where the frustration lies.

    Overall, i think i'm having fun with this game but i dunno how long i'll stick to it. Something to stream for now - i'm very close to twitch afflitrate, so if i can just get past the 5 average viewers, maybe i can acutally make some dosh from grumbling about card game desgin =P

    Anyway, here's the VoD for my E1 win

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    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    I really like this game so far.
    I agree with most of the criticism brought up so far but I'm willing to hold my tongue while it's in early access. I'm unclear how close to 1.0 the game is relative to its current state.
    All said, it's a bit too easy for the moment. Would like to see it build to the same level of nuance as StS.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    I really like this game so far.
    I agree with most of the criticism brought up so far but I'm willing to hold my tongue while it's in early access. I'm unclear how close to 1.0 the game is relative to its current state.
    All said, it's a bit too easy for the moment. Would like to see it build to the same level of nuance as StS.

    The game is in 1.0, not early access. That's actually one of my big concerns: This is the release version, and there's so many polish issues and other stuff that should not have slipped past testing!

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    destroyah87destroyah87 They/Them Preferred: She/Her - Please UseRegistered User regular
    I really like this game so far.
    I agree with most of the criticism brought up so far but I'm willing to hold my tongue while it's in early access. I'm unclear how close to 1.0 the game is relative to its current state.
    All said, it's a bit too easy for the moment. Would like to see it build to the same level of nuance as StS.

    For the record, Roguebook is not in an early access state in the store page; it's showing as a fully released game, not in Early Access.

    That's one reason I'm judging it harshly, it doesn't have the buffer of "still being worked on" like it would if it were still identified as Early Access.

    Like, the core is good. Card interactions are badly fuzzy in really annoying moments*. There's a good number of bugs still. The game's performance is slow at battle load, presenting as a multi-second black screen and that gives a mild annoyance hit each and every battle. Animations are slow to play sometimes for no good reason, especially when there's multiple hits and/or multiple targets affect.

    *As TZPenguin's posts show, the way cards that are Ally's and cards that summon ally's as an effect interact with gems and treasures are unnecessarily confusing and really can hack off a player at the exact wrong moment.

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