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[MTG] Some call it bootlegging. Some call it racketeering. I call it Magic.

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Posts

  • UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    not to mention, without knowing what % of decks are running that combo you’d have no way of knowing if you were seeing more than the average, difficult to know if you ran into an angel deck that wasn’t doing it vs one that just didn’t draw the book that game, etc

  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    If you're not playing ranked, they've explicitly said they use deck strength matchmaking, which in almost any implementation would favor mirror matches for obvious reasons (the decks are pretty similar on any strength metric you could use).

    If you're playing ranked, the idea deck strength matchmaking exists is definitely a conspiracy theory.

    I ate an engineer
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    Yeah, no, I only play ranked.
    And when I play Tibalt's Trickery I play against Tibalt's Trickery.
    And when I play a mutate card I play against mutate decks, until I take the card out.
    And when I play deathtouch tribal, I get put against decks with the indestructible squirrel in, because he's in my deck.
    Etc.

    discrider on
  • UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    Yeah, no, I only play ranked.
    And when I play Tibalt's Trickery I play against Tibalt's Trickery.
    And when I play a mutate card I play against mutate decks, until I take the card out.
    And when I play deathtouch tribal, I get put against decks with the indestructible squirrel in, because he's in my deck.
    Etc.

    okay but I quite simply do not have that experience. Admittedly my own evidence is merely anecdotal as well, but I feel like if the deck hard-matched in ranked the way you seem to think not only would it be far more obvious to everyone, the mountains of data accumulated by deck trackers would show this on a statistical level, and it would be a known, proven thing

    maybe the algorithm is hard coded so that you, personally and specifically are matched up against similar decks?

    (or maybe confirmation bias is a thing, that's been observed in human behaviour as far back as ancient greece idk)

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    Which deck trackers are these?
    (And I think it's likely that people who don't build garbage decks don't notice, because their mirror matches are expected as part of the meta)

    discrider on
  • AntoshkaAntoshka Miauen Oil Change LazarusRegistered User regular
    I mean, I was doing well with Izzet land destruction in S22, but that was primarily because I kept being matched against that combo, so I went with it. There is actually still Cleansing wildfire, and the Kaldheim 4cmc instant. Both bad on their own, but build a deck around copying spells, and you start getting to a point where it's merely terrible, rather than unplayable.

    n57PM0C.jpg
  • UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    https://mtga.untapped.gg/ is the one I've been using, but there's a bunch like it

    provides in-game decklists so that you know what's left and your odds of drawing it, and tracks wins/losses and matchups for both ranked and unranked

    (and I'll have you know I build and play almost exclusively garbage decks)

    For example, here are some of my most played decks from last ranked season, linked because big images https://imgur.com/a/RlJiGg3
    It doesn't show opponent deck lists, just colors but that's enough to give some idea of what I faced.

    Orzhov Aggro: it's not in the screenshot (most common matchups are on top and I didn't scroll down before screenshotting), but 1 Orzhov mirror in 37 games.
    Simic Stomp: 0 Simic mirrors in 20 games
    Boros Exile/Tempo: 4 Boros mirrors in 37 games (though I believe they were mostly Winota decks, because those were goddamn everywhere last season)
    Jeskai Ramp: 1 Jeskai mirror in 19
    Azorious Blink: 1 Azorious mirror in 25

    Now this isn't a random sample, just my 5 most played decks in Ranked last month, and of those we have... 7 same-colour mirrors in 138 matches, or roughly 5% of the time.

    But again, even that isn't a big enough sample size for conclusions, one person's experience almost never is. Statistics are wild and outliers happen.

  • UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    heck even leaving Ranked, in the play queue my most-played decks were a trio of Abzan brews I was really trying hard to make work, I played 62 games between the three of them, with only 2 Abzan mirrors, for roughly 3.2%

    (One of the other Abzan decks was an Eerie Ultimatum deck, mine was a +1/+! counter cleric/grakmaw deck, the other was a Doom Foretold deck, and mine was a mutate deck.)

    I guess it's possible that my decks are TOO janky for the algorithm and that's why I get more random results, but... I think there are likelier explanations.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Those decks don't look janky.
    And your Orzhov deck would face mirrors in mono-white (second top faced deck).
    Pretty hard to see the mirrors without recorded seen cards though, and doesn't look like enough games were played in most of the decks to see.

  • UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    And yet your anecdotal recollection of what you play against is proof enough? :rotate:

    Fuck it, lets do this. I can't find a snapshot of what the meta breakdown was just last season, so the first week or so of AFR standard is in the mix a little bit, but Aetherhub lets me look at the last 90 days which should weigh STX standard way more than AFR. From that, if I add up all of the mono-white decks, it comes out to 18.77% of the meta. Based on that, if I allow you to say that mono white counts as an Orzhov mirror, if it was random I should have faced an average of 7 mono white (or Orzhov) decks in 37 games. More than that could be an indication of deck matching (or just random chance). Less than that could be random chance as well, of course. But if there was deck-matching going on and I still got less than the average distribution of "mirrors" then that would be increasingly unlikely depending on how hard you think the supposed matching algorithm is (and you seem to think it matches very hard)

    And the answer is... 5! In a meta that was almost 18.77% mono-white, I played against 4 mono-white decks and one orzhov, for 13.5%. Easily explained by random chance, less easily explained by random chance overpowering an algorithm tuned to force more mirror matches.

    But I'm not done - I decided to check again, and it turns out you can in fact see what each opponent played. Not their full deck, but what cards they actually revealed in-game. https://imgur.com/a/e29ikzj
    Common/shared cards across all 5 matches
    Deck 1: Skyclave Apparition. You know, one of the most-played cards in the colour. That's like saying "that red deck is also playing Bonecrusher Giant"
    Deck 2: Luminarch Aspirant, see above.
    Deck 3: Literally nothing in common
    Deck 4: Selfless Savior, Luminarch Aspirant. Again, we're both playing good cards.
    Deck 5: Selfless Savior

    Caveats for small sample size aside, the fact that even random chance is pointing *away* from matching rather than towards is noteworthy.

    Additionally, while I am only looking at my own data, people who choose to actually pay premium for this site (or others like it) can look at meta breakdowns and matchup rates for other decks as well, including how many matchups each archetype plays against others. If there was hamfisted deck matching like you describe, it would be very, very obvious in that data, it would show at even a casual glance if a deck that was only 10% of the overall meta played against specific decks 15, 20% of the time or anything like that. It's not happening, no matter how much you've convinced yourself that it is.

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Don't they admit to rigging the play queue do they not? 'Matchmaking'?

  • UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    beyond that, I enjoy brewing and playing different decks too much to produce any more useful data than that, I currently have a list of 30 different Standard 2022 decks I need to go through and test

    if you really want to prove that the algorithm is out to get you, feel free to install a tracker, play say 100 games of deathtouch with Toski, 100 games without, and then show some numbers

    I suspect they might surprise you. I know I felt like 1/3 to 1/2 of my matches were against Mono-Red last season, but according to untapped it was only 76 matches out of 605, or 12.56%. Our brains really do distort things a lot.

    (the overall average meta share of Mono-Red last season? About 13%. Numbers, man.)

  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Don't they admit to rigging the play queue do they not? 'Matchmaking'?

    Non-ranked is rigged, thought it’s more based on average rarity than anything else. Just so newer players aren’t immediately clocked by T1 decks.

  • UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    I don’t think it’s simply rarity though that’s close enough - it’s weighted based on how frequently crafted the rares are, so that popular, meta relevant rares get a higher deck strength value than fun jank rares

    Basically netdecks are more likely to face other netdecks, though not necessarily the same ones

    When you get into jankier territory the waters get muddied and you definitely do start seeing more decks similar to yours, as you’re using cards with similar strength/popularity

    (And again, this is all just play queue stuff)

  • RanlinRanlin Oh gosh Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Don't they admit to rigging the play queue do they not? 'Matchmaking'?

    Play queue (anything unranked, really) gets matched up against similar 'deck strengths'/popularity. Which given how hard it can be to match power levels, particularly without giving potential blowout wins to one player all the time, means you're often put up against very similar decks. There's still a win/loss input to it, iirc, but the deck's contents weighs heavily. I played a ton of mono red in play queue for a while just because I didn't actually want to play but wanted my 4-5 wins a day. Before too long it would take like 50-60 seconds to match me, and it was almost exclusively mirror matches.

    No such thing happens for any ranked queue.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    And yet your anecdotal recollection of what you play against is proof enough? :rotate:

    Fuck it, lets do this. I can't find a snapshot of what the meta breakdown was just last season, so the first week or so of AFR standard is in the mix a little bit, but Aetherhub lets me look at the last 90 days which should weigh STX standard way more than AFR. From that, if I add up all of the mono-white decks, it comes out to 18.77% of the meta. Based on that, if I allow you to say that mono white counts as an Orzhov mirror, if it was random I should have faced an average of 7 mono white (or Orzhov) decks in 37 games. More than that could be an indication of deck matching (or just random chance). Less than that could be random chance as well, of course. But if there was deck-matching going on and I still got less than the average distribution of "mirrors" then that would be increasingly unlikely depending on how hard you think the supposed matching algorithm is (and you seem to think it matches very hard)

    And the answer is... 5! In a meta that was almost 18.77% mono-white, I played against 4 mono-white decks and one orzhov, for 13.5%. Easily explained by random chance, less easily explained by random chance overpowering an algorithm tuned to force more mirror matches.

    But I'm not done - I decided to check again, and it turns out you can in fact see what each opponent played. Not their full deck, but what cards they actually revealed in-game. https://imgur.com/a/e29ikzj
    Common/shared cards across all 5 matches
    Deck 1: Skyclave Apparition. You know, one of the most-played cards in the colour. That's like saying "that red deck is also playing Bonecrusher Giant"
    Deck 2: Luminarch Aspirant, see above.
    Deck 3: Literally nothing in common
    Deck 4: Selfless Savior, Luminarch Aspirant. Again, we're both playing good cards.
    Deck 5: Selfless Savior

    Caveats for small sample size aside, the fact that even random chance is pointing *away* from matching rather than towards is noteworthy.

    Additionally, while I am only looking at my own data, people who choose to actually pay premium for this site (or others like it) can look at meta breakdowns and matchup rates for other decks as well, including how many matchups each archetype plays against others. If there was hamfisted deck matching like you describe, it would be very, very obvious in that data, it would show at even a casual glance if a deck that was only 10% of the overall meta played against specific decks 15, 20% of the time or anything like that. It's not happening, no matter how much you've convinced yourself that it is.

    Does it break the stats down by rank?

    discrider on
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    beyond that, I enjoy brewing and playing different decks too much to produce any more useful data than that, I currently have a list of 30 different Standard 2022 decks I need to go through and test

    if you really want to prove that the algorithm is out to get you, feel free to install a tracker, play say 100 games of deathtouch with Toski, 100 games without, and then show some numbers

    What I need is some more wildcards to craft Prismari Command so my Giant deck has some good cards in it and I can get paired against dragons.

  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    randomly thinking about the fan theory that the eldrazi are world-recyclers that make new worlds over time, combined with the fact that it's explicitly stated that ghosts don't get affected by emrakul

    so if that were true every world would just be filled with the ghosts of an entire precursor world that remember The Before

  • UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    beyond that, I enjoy brewing and playing different decks too much to produce any more useful data than that, I currently have a list of 30 different Standard 2022 decks I need to go through and test

    if you really want to prove that the algorithm is out to get you, feel free to install a tracker, play say 100 games of deathtouch with Toski, 100 games without, and then show some numbers

    What I need is some more wildcards to craft Prismari Command so my Giant deck has some good cards in it and I can get paired against dragons.

    This is on purpose now, right? Like, you have to see what you’re doing. Results that don’t line up with what you already believe are clearly flawed so you find areas where they’re imperfect, while your idea of positive proof is “if I make my deck a little better I will start encountering one of the most popular decks in the format

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    No, I don't know enough about your stats.
    Which is why I'd like to know if it breaks by rank, so I can use it if it does.

    And my current deck has like Frostbite in it, and.. everything with Giant on the card, as well as lands and reflections of jitt.
    It lost bonecrusher and now sucks, and I've also not seen any dragons in M22 yet.
    So.. need to see if it continues to show me not-dragons without Prisimari and dragons with, because most every other card in my deck doesn't seem to be used by anyone else (aside the modal lands), and so any effect should be outsized.

  • WhippyWhippy Moderator, Admin Emeritus Admin Emeritus
    my friend you are no longer playing magic the gathering, what you are doing is calvinball

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Frankly, I'm not sure I want to force dragons by playing Prisimari, but I'm not sure what else can be subbed in for Bonecrusher.
    Short of trying Orvar Giants and etbs again, now that there's a one mana hexproof.

  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    At least you're only a conspiracy theorist about an inconsequential video game's matchmaking, there are so many worse things to be this way about. At least, I hope you are only this way about this topic.

    BahamutZERO.gif
  • KetarKetar Come on upstairs we're having a partyRegistered User regular
    I recently found out that the dad of one of my son's friends from down the block plays Magic, and after talking a bit it seems likely that I'll end up playing actual in-person Magic for the first time in like 20 years sometime soon. Which is cool!

    But he and his group only play Commander, and they've been playing it together for years and years. Not as cool in some ways, since I hadn't bought any actual Magic cards for almost 20 years (other than a couple of boxes from recent sets when I was getting back into Magic last year prior to the pandemic and thought I'd start playing Standard somewhere local). I have a small number of my old cards, but sold off the best of them when I stopped playing long ago. Playing Commander is super appealing to me, but trying to build a deck from scratch with almost nothing in the way of a card base is a bit daunting given the prices on cards these days - especially putting together a good mana base. I bought a few crappy precon decks last year as well that I may try to modify into at least being fun if not terribly competitive.

    So, any suggestions on potential decks that could at least be playable without spending a ton of cash? Also any suggestions on good resources for getting into Commander? Websites or YouTube channels or whatever. I enjoy watching I Hate Your Deck on YT, but that's about it so far. I loved 100 card Historic Brawl on Arena, but I know that was super different since it was 1v1 (and with the way more limited Arena card selection) and my impression is that people run a lot less spot removal in actual Commander.

  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    Edhrec is a good resource for decks and can even show you budget versions of certain commanders with its filters.

    I ate an engineer
  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    At least you're only a conspiracy theorist about an inconsequential video game's matchmaking, there are so many worse things to be this way about. At least, I hope you are only this way about this topic.

    The neat thing is that if discrider ever asks why Trump supporters believe that Trump won the election, we can point to their belief that matchmaking is rigged in Magic.

    XBL: Bizazedo
    PSN: Bizazedo
    CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
  • Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    Ketar, if you're not against the idea of precons, the elf commander precon from Kaldheim isn't too bad to start with. It's okay out of the box and being Black and green has some nice options for new cards.

    58pwo4vxupcr.png
  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    Ketar wrote: »
    I recently found out that the dad of one of my son's friends from down the block plays Magic, and after talking a bit it seems likely that I'll end up playing actual in-person Magic for the first time in like 20 years sometime soon. Which is cool!

    But he and his group only play Commander, and they've been playing it together for years and years. Not as cool in some ways, since I hadn't bought any actual Magic cards for almost 20 years (other than a couple of boxes from recent sets when I was getting back into Magic last year prior to the pandemic and thought I'd start playing Standard somewhere local). I have a small number of my old cards, but sold off the best of them when I stopped playing long ago. Playing Commander is super appealing to me, but trying to build a deck from scratch with almost nothing in the way of a card base is a bit daunting given the prices on cards these days - especially putting together a good mana base. I bought a few crappy precon decks last year as well that I may try to modify into at least being fun if not terribly competitive.

    So, any suggestions on potential decks that could at least be playable without spending a ton of cash? Also any suggestions on good resources for getting into Commander? Websites or YouTube channels or whatever. I enjoy watching I Hate Your Deck on YT, but that's about it so far. I loved 100 card Historic Brawl on Arena, but I know that was super different since it was 1v1 (and with the way more limited Arena card selection) and my impression is that people run a lot less spot removal in actual Commander.

    Without knowing the level at which that group of people play Commander, it's hard for me to weigh in with anything. If they're playing with precons, or precons with 10-20 replaced cards, that's an easy thing to match. But if they're casual tryharding or serious or serious competitive, it changes what I'd recommend drastically, to outright being out of the loop.

  • UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    Also, it might be worth finding out how they feel about proxy cards. Despite what some people may think, Wizards is actually totally fine with it outside of organized/competitive play as long as someone isn't trying to distribute proxies as counterfeits of the real cards.

  • KetarKetar Come on upstairs we're having a partyRegistered User regular
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    I recently found out that the dad of one of my son's friends from down the block plays Magic, and after talking a bit it seems likely that I'll end up playing actual in-person Magic for the first time in like 20 years sometime soon. Which is cool!

    But he and his group only play Commander, and they've been playing it together for years and years. Not as cool in some ways, since I hadn't bought any actual Magic cards for almost 20 years (other than a couple of boxes from recent sets when I was getting back into Magic last year prior to the pandemic and thought I'd start playing Standard somewhere local). I have a small number of my old cards, but sold off the best of them when I stopped playing long ago. Playing Commander is super appealing to me, but trying to build a deck from scratch with almost nothing in the way of a card base is a bit daunting given the prices on cards these days - especially putting together a good mana base. I bought a few crappy precon decks last year as well that I may try to modify into at least being fun if not terribly competitive.

    So, any suggestions on potential decks that could at least be playable without spending a ton of cash? Also any suggestions on good resources for getting into Commander? Websites or YouTube channels or whatever. I enjoy watching I Hate Your Deck on YT, but that's about it so far. I loved 100 card Historic Brawl on Arena, but I know that was super different since it was 1v1 (and with the way more limited Arena card selection) and my impression is that people run a lot less spot removal in actual Commander.

    Without knowing the level at which that group of people play Commander, it's hard for me to weigh in with anything. If they're playing with precons, or precons with 10-20 replaced cards, that's an easy thing to match. But if they're casual tryharding or serious or serious competitive, it changes what I'd recommend drastically, to outright being out of the loop.

    They've been playing together for over a decade and "all have dozens of Commander decks." I would guess varying power levels and that it's unlikely they're running precons, but I can't really be sure. I'm not too interested in trying to put together a killer deck initially, just something fun that can hopefully at least hang a bit with folks that have been doing this for a long time.

  • UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    Frankly, I'm not sure I want to force dragons by playing Prisimari, but I'm not sure what else can be subbed in for Bonecrusher.
    Short of trying Orvar Giants and etbs again, now that there's a one mana hexproof.

    gonna leave the conspiracy stuff be for now, I'm done with that and try to help with the deckbuilding question as that's more fun.

    Obviously nothing is going to fully replace Bonecrusher, there's a reason it was in basically every single deck that had red mana for the past 2 years.

    In terms of options to fill the void as much as possible... there's not much. Dragon's Fire isn't going to be any more than 3 damage in a Giants deck. Going to 3 mana you've got a few more options, Prismari Command doesn't kill a lot of things you really need to right now, especially against Mono Green and Dragons. Heated Debate's "can't be countered" could be good against Goldspans, but doesn't do enough to kill Iymrakuls. Squash might be okay in a Giants deck but probably not.

    The one other option I might consider though is Burning Hands. At worst it's Stomp, but against Mono-Green (which is one of the top decks right now) it will take out Werewolf Pack Leader, Old Growth Troll, Kazandu Mammoth, etc for 2 mana

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    I'm really curious if we'll get anything approaching the removal powerlevel that is being lost with the rotation in Innistrad 3.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    Ketar wrote: »
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    I recently found out that the dad of one of my son's friends from down the block plays Magic, and after talking a bit it seems likely that I'll end up playing actual in-person Magic for the first time in like 20 years sometime soon. Which is cool!

    But he and his group only play Commander, and they've been playing it together for years and years. Not as cool in some ways, since I hadn't bought any actual Magic cards for almost 20 years (other than a couple of boxes from recent sets when I was getting back into Magic last year prior to the pandemic and thought I'd start playing Standard somewhere local). I have a small number of my old cards, but sold off the best of them when I stopped playing long ago. Playing Commander is super appealing to me, but trying to build a deck from scratch with almost nothing in the way of a card base is a bit daunting given the prices on cards these days - especially putting together a good mana base. I bought a few crappy precon decks last year as well that I may try to modify into at least being fun if not terribly competitive.

    So, any suggestions on potential decks that could at least be playable without spending a ton of cash? Also any suggestions on good resources for getting into Commander? Websites or YouTube channels or whatever. I enjoy watching I Hate Your Deck on YT, but that's about it so far. I loved 100 card Historic Brawl on Arena, but I know that was super different since it was 1v1 (and with the way more limited Arena card selection) and my impression is that people run a lot less spot removal in actual Commander.

    Without knowing the level at which that group of people play Commander, it's hard for me to weigh in with anything. If they're playing with precons, or precons with 10-20 replaced cards, that's an easy thing to match. But if they're casual tryharding or serious or serious competitive, it changes what I'd recommend drastically, to outright being out of the loop.

    They've been playing together for over a decade and "all have dozens of Commander decks." I would guess varying power levels and that it's unlikely they're running precons, but I can't really be sure. I'm not too interested in trying to put together a killer deck initially, just something fun that can hopefully at least hang a bit with folks that have been doing this for a long time.

    I think the two biggest recommendations I can make off the bat, with this information, is to stick to a single color. The most expensive thing to do well in a 3+ color Commander deck is the lands. But if you're running like, 28 swamps and a few utility lands in your monoblack deck, that shaves off a massive cost.

    My second recommendation would hinge on the first being something you're interested in. Sift through all the legendary cards by color until you find one that resonates with you and/or what you want to be doing in a game of Commander. Incorporate a theme for your deck based on the commander. So, say you pick Ayara. Try to put in a bunch of creature token generators, potentially look at ways to take advantage of the BBB cost of her by using some Devotion cards (Gray merchant being the big outlier here). Play cards that want you to have a lot of tokens to use as fodder, or ways to benefit yourself when your dumb fodder tokens die (Zulaport Cutthroat, Falkenrath Noble).

    I find the decks that focus around a theme tend to have a pretty smooth, medium power level. One issue doing this is that it can lead to some samey games over time.

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Just proxy the lands, TBH. If there's one thing nobody should give you gruff for, it's using proxies for those fuckin $100 lands

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    Yeah I would look into proxying lands if that pod is cool with it. Building a mana base if you're not playing a mono colored deck will blow up your budget. Fast lands are getting pretty pricey and some of the check lands are up there as well. Fetch lands are still up there even with enemy fetches being reprinted in MH2. Mirage fetches come into play tapped but aren't nearly expensive because of that. They're pretty slow so not necessarily good depending on the decks you're facing. The best mana rocks are incredibly expensive tbh and you'd need 600+ to get them if you don't have any already. Talismans, signets, arcane signet, lotus petal, lotus bloom, felwar stone, and sol ring are much more budget friendly.

    If you go the mono black route the price of cabal coffers has taken a nose dive and is deffo worth the price. With that and things like all the rituals, crypt ghast, and maybe extra planar lens or the higher cmc caged sun, you shouldn't be hurting for mana. What you do with the mana depends on the deck you build though.

    Macro9 on
    58pwo4vxupcr.png
  • nwrabenwrabe Insidious Squid Registered User regular
    Ketar wrote: »
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    I recently found out that the dad of one of my son's friends from down the block plays Magic, and after talking a bit it seems likely that I'll end up playing actual in-person Magic for the first time in like 20 years sometime soon. Which is cool!

    But he and his group only play Commander, and they've been playing it together for years and years. Not as cool in some ways, since I hadn't bought any actual Magic cards for almost 20 years (other than a couple of boxes from recent sets when I was getting back into Magic last year prior to the pandemic and thought I'd start playing Standard somewhere local). I have a small number of my old cards, but sold off the best of them when I stopped playing long ago. Playing Commander is super appealing to me, but trying to build a deck from scratch with almost nothing in the way of a card base is a bit daunting given the prices on cards these days - especially putting together a good mana base. I bought a few crappy precon decks last year as well that I may try to modify into at least being fun if not terribly competitive.

    So, any suggestions on potential decks that could at least be playable without spending a ton of cash? Also any suggestions on good resources for getting into Commander? Websites or YouTube channels or whatever. I enjoy watching I Hate Your Deck on YT, but that's about it so far. I loved 100 card Historic Brawl on Arena, but I know that was super different since it was 1v1 (and with the way more limited Arena card selection) and my impression is that people run a lot less spot removal in actual Commander.

    Without knowing the level at which that group of people play Commander, it's hard for me to weigh in with anything. If they're playing with precons, or precons with 10-20 replaced cards, that's an easy thing to match. But if they're casual tryharding or serious or serious competitive, it changes what I'd recommend drastically, to outright being out of the loop.

    They've been playing together for over a decade and "all have dozens of Commander decks." I would guess varying power levels and that it's unlikely they're running precons, but I can't really be sure. I'm not too interested in trying to put together a killer deck initially, just something fun that can hopefully at least hang a bit with folks that have been doing this for a long time.

    I would see if someone has a deck or two they can lend you for the first night. That way you can get a feel for how seriously they take things and you avoid the risk of buying everything for a deck and then never going back.

    Or pick up a cheap precon deck. You may wind up being underpowered, but a good group wouldn’t gang up on the new guy so you should still get to have fun. Of course, if they do immediately gang up on you, well... that says a lot about the group you’d be joining, too.

    Back when I had a regular commander group we would occasionally have precon-only days (mostly to pit new releases against each other). You could also see if that’s an option.

  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    Macro9 wrote: »
    Yeah I would look into proxying lands if that pod is cool with it. Building a mana base if you're not playing a mono colored deck will blow up your budget. Fast lands are getting pretty pricey and some of the check lands are up there as well. Fetch lands are still up there even with enemy fetches being reprinted in MH2. Mirage fetches come into play tapped but aren't nearly expensive because of that. They're pretty slow so not necessarily good depending on the decks you're facing. The best mana rocks are incredibly expensive tbh and you'd need 600+ to get them if you don't have any already. Talismans, signets, arcane signet, lotus petal, lotus bloom, felwar stone, and sol ring are much more budget friendly.

    If you go the mono black route the price of cabal coffers has taken a nose dive and is deffo worth the price. With that and things like all the rituals, crypt ghast, and maybe extra planar lens or the higher cmc caged sun, you shouldn't be hurting for mana. What you do with the mana depends on the deck you build though.

    Which mana rocks are worth this much?

  • Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Macro9 wrote: »
    Yeah I would look into proxying lands if that pod is cool with it. Building a mana base if you're not playing a mono colored deck will blow up your budget. Fast lands are getting pretty pricey and some of the check lands are up there as well. Fetch lands are still up there even with enemy fetches being reprinted in MH2. Mirage fetches come into play tapped but aren't nearly expensive because of that. They're pretty slow so not necessarily good depending on the decks you're facing. The best mana rocks are incredibly expensive tbh and you'd need 600+ to get them if you don't have any already. Talismans, signets, arcane signet, lotus petal, lotus bloom, felwar stone, and sol ring are much more budget friendly.

    If you go the mono black route the price of cabal coffers has taken a nose dive and is deffo worth the price. With that and things like all the rituals, crypt ghast, and maybe extra planar lens or the higher cmc caged sun, you shouldn't be hurting for mana. What you do with the mana depends on the deck you build though.

    Which mana rocks are worth this much?

    Mana crypt, mana vault, the moxen, etc. I didn't mean individually though.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    There are enough good budget mana rocks that I'd just use those instead of worrying about the moxen et al.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    Macro9 wrote: »
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Macro9 wrote: »
    Yeah I would look into proxying lands if that pod is cool with it. Building a mana base if you're not playing a mono colored deck will blow up your budget. Fast lands are getting pretty pricey and some of the check lands are up there as well. Fetch lands are still up there even with enemy fetches being reprinted in MH2. Mirage fetches come into play tapped but aren't nearly expensive because of that. They're pretty slow so not necessarily good depending on the decks you're facing. The best mana rocks are incredibly expensive tbh and you'd need 600+ to get them if you don't have any already. Talismans, signets, arcane signet, lotus petal, lotus bloom, felwar stone, and sol ring are much more budget friendly.

    If you go the mono black route the price of cabal coffers has taken a nose dive and is deffo worth the price. With that and things like all the rituals, crypt ghast, and maybe extra planar lens or the higher cmc caged sun, you shouldn't be hurting for mana. What you do with the mana depends on the deck you build though.

    Which mana rocks are worth this much?

    Mana crypt, mana vault, the moxen, etc. I didn't mean individually though.

    Well you can't use moxes in Commander anyway (except for the bad ones). Also, is Mana Vault actually expensive? Last I checked they were like $15.

This discussion has been closed.