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[MCU Movies] Closed Spoilers for Eternals & Spider-Man

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Posts

  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    I don't want to cure cancer, I want to turn people into dinosaurs dot jpeg

    Listen the nanotechnology on display in Tony's final Iron Man suit could cure cancer and literally all disease. Just let hunter killer nanobots loose in your blood killing every cancer cell or whatever. Nevermind the magical infinite energy from nothing that is the arc reactor.

    But the setting isn't interested in a hero who could invent a panacea or power the globe, it's about a hero punching villains and OK fair enough.

    The tech could also selectively dissolve every human being on the planet. Or dissolve just one groups another given group hates.

    Stark keeps the tech to himself for the same justified reason as Pym: once that door is opened, the Earth is fucked because there absolutely will be somebody who will abuse it. His arc reactor tech alone almost destroys civilization as we know it. Twice.

    Absolutely no fucking way would I give that tech up to the public either, not unless I WANTED to watch the Earth devolve into a hellish ball of unending murder and misery.

    If we're taking this argument seriously, this is some silly luddite thinking, every innovation by mankind makes us better at destroying ourselves and if nuclear, biological or chemical weapons didn't do the trick there's no reason to believe nanotechnological will either. Not only would Stark singlehandedly save countless lives and increase the standard of living of the entire globe, the deus-ex-machina nature of vibranium as depicted in Wakanda takes things straight into space fantasy, let alone if the actual Wizards open up a few colleges.

    But again, we don't need to twist ourselves into knots justifying this stuff. The Ancient One didn't bother justifying why she doesn't share that magic is real with the entire world, she didn't want to because that's the settings conceit and we just have to accept it.

    I know this is deeply unsatisfying from a logical perspective, we all want things to make sense for in-universe reasons but there just aren't any that make sense. At this point the MCU Earth should basically be Shadowrun but the stories are told in a world the same as ours except these few individuals are special and so it's going to stay.

    Except that in the real world, turning things like nuclear materials and biotech knowledge into weapons is hard. Really hard. You basically can't make a simple atom bomb without a big industrial base and a team of specialized scientists. Fission-fusion warheads are even harder. Even a really really basic dirty bomb requires collecting a bunch of heavily radioactive materials from somewhere, which is no small operation. Biotech is also pretty hard to actually weaponize in any reliable way and also requires an immense amount of resources and technical knowledge to get anywhere.

    In the MCU, the thresholds are immensely lower, there's not comparison. Stark built his first mini arc reactor out of missile leftovers and junk, invented nanotech between films, and time travel on a weekend. The son of his father's rival duplicates his arc reactor tech with stolen original arc reactor plans. Klau turned a Wakandan mining drill into a massive cannon. Banner accidentally turned himself into a walking WMD. Wakanda has justifiably spent centuries hiding its tech, knowing that it would effectively destroy the world. Stark's arc reactor tech and nanomachines would be the same thing. And the same thing again with Pym's shrinking tech and Banner's creation of the Hulk.

    And all of these characters do justify withholding their knowledge. Stark and T'Challa risk their lives to keep a lid on their tech proliferating. The Ancient One is extremely selective about who she takes in and we see concrete evidence as to exactly why. Banner spends so much time on the run because he's terrified of the Hulk being duplicated. Pym executes an elaborate heist plan to prevent a poor copy of his tech from, surprise surprise, being sold to HYDRA remnants. Half the MCU heroes are occupied with are concerned about the things they know proliferating in to the real world and destroying it. They aren't opposed to the world advancing, but they damn sure are opposed to putting what amounts to nuclear weapons in the hands of street-level criminals with a grudge (and we saw one of those in the Vulture, whose whole business was selling horrifically dangerous weapons made from alien tech).

    All of this shows the cat would be out of the bag against multiple nation-states. Yes, they pay lip-service to the idea that these are special individuals, but a new one pops up every other week.

    It's not hard sci-fi, and it doesn't try to be. If you want to explore the ramifications of the tech, go for it. But the writers of the setting clearly aren't interested in telling that story. The most they'll do is make an offhand joke, and then it's back to 2020, but with people that can punch harder. Spiderman Far From Home is as much as we've seen meaningfully take into account The Blip, and there it's just a side-note to explain that they're not ignoring it.

    The setting doesn't stand up to analysis any better than Star Wars does because that's not the point. It's not speculative fiction, it's fantasy.

    FANTOMASLanlaornGiantGeek2020AbsoluteZero
  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    Thinking about it, of the movies I feel like the Spiderman movies are the only ones that really attempt to even address how people might react to these, maybe because he's intended to be a street-level hero hanging out with his schoolmates. Sure, we see governments get pissed off at the Avengers in Civil War, and we even get someone upbrading Stark pretty righteously, but that still doesn't say anything about how the people on the ground might react to

    I don't know

    a whole city being dropped like a rock

    or what-have-you.

    Homecoming's main villain was the aftermath of the Avengers, and Far From Home at least touched on the Blip.

    GiantGeek2020AbsoluteZerozepherin
  • EmperorSethEmperorSeth Registered User regular
    What we're talking about here is the Superhero Paradox. Superheroes, despite being definitively a benevolent force in the world, can't really improve the world too much, or it wouldn't actually BE a superhero story. They would live in an utopian world of infinite clean energy, cures for cancer and other diseases, and engaging in space diplomacy and colonization. And we wouldn't recognize ourselves as living in this world, so the focus has to be on stopping supervillains to keep the world from being much worse than our own. Sadly, that means that a person living in a superhero universe has it actually worse than our own, since supervillains would hardly be a threat if they don't at least partially succeed from time to time. The Snap being the worst of such examples, traumatizing nearly every living being in the universe before its eventual undoing and the additional problems THAT caused.

    Personally, I don't like the Superhero Paradox. I feel that any established superhero universe should come with an expiration date, and once it hits that point, you conclude the narrative or you give up on making the world a reflection of our own. Post-Endgame, I feel the creators should have gone the latter route. We should see world now not only dealing with the Blip, but the launching of our first FTL ships, colonies on the Moon and Mars, alien diplomats popping up and maybe even alien tourists, etc. Heck, I wish these movies would go in deeper at how the world looks from civilian eyes. Are religions being abandoned now that literal gods walk among us? Or are new ones formed around the martyrdom of Start or the cosmic powers that alter their lives constantly? Do people drive flying, arc-reactor powered cars? How does racism look now that everyone is eating vibranium-infused food? That sort of thing.

    You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
    Captain CarrotLanlaornKanaThisautono-wally, erotibot300
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    It would have been fun, frankly, to see that starting with the Avengers. Because holy shit, an alien army popped out of the sky, and a handful of people with extraordinary abilities turned the tide. Surely a whole bunch of folks would have tried to pursue this new world? But that will probably have to stay in the realm of fanfiction, or possibly a small line of comics if Marvel or DC ever get interested in it as a one-off.

    LanlaornThis
  • MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    edited November 23
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    I don't want to cure cancer, I want to turn people into dinosaurs dot jpeg

    Listen the nanotechnology on display in Tony's final Iron Man suit could cure cancer and literally all disease. Just let hunter killer nanobots loose in your blood killing every cancer cell or whatever. Nevermind the magical infinite energy from nothing that is the arc reactor.

    But the setting isn't interested in a hero who could invent a panacea or power the globe, it's about a hero punching villains and OK fair enough.

    The tech could also selectively dissolve every human being on the planet. Or dissolve just one groups another given group hates.

    Stark keeps the tech to himself for the same justified reason as Pym: once that door is opened, the Earth is fucked because there absolutely will be somebody who will abuse it. His arc reactor tech alone almost destroys civilization as we know it. Twice.

    Absolutely no fucking way would I give that tech up to the public either, not unless I WANTED to watch the Earth devolve into a hellish ball of unending murder and misery.

    If we're taking this argument seriously, this is some silly luddite thinking, every innovation by mankind makes us better at destroying ourselves and if nuclear, biological or chemical weapons didn't do the trick there's no reason to believe nanotechnological will either. Not only would Stark singlehandedly save countless lives and increase the standard of living of the entire globe, the deus-ex-machina nature of vibranium as depicted in Wakanda takes things straight into space fantasy, let alone if the actual Wizards open up a few colleges.

    But again, we don't need to twist ourselves into knots justifying this stuff. The Ancient One didn't bother justifying why she doesn't share that magic is real with the entire world, she didn't want to because that's the settings conceit and we just have to accept it.

    I know this is deeply unsatisfying from a logical perspective, we all want things to make sense for in-universe reasons but there just aren't any that make sense. At this point the MCU Earth should basically be Shadowrun but the stories are told in a world the same as ours except these few individuals are special and so it's going to stay.

    20110713.gif

    Monwyn on
    uH3IcEi.png
  • MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    I've tried like four times to inline the image and it refuses, here's the pertinent link: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-07-13

    uH3IcEi.png
    physi_marcchrono_travellerCarpymrpakuOrcaShadowenShadowfireHeirJragghenChiselphaneautono-wally, erotibot300
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    Don't worry, as soon as I saw you were trying to link SMBC I knew exactly which one you meant.

    CarpyFencingsaxDark Raven XOrcaShadowenMcFodderJragghen
  • DarlanDarlan Registered User regular
    I am super, super behind on MCU stuff and finally got around to to the Falcon show—they should have made Anthony Mackie a main protagonist actor for the MCU a long time ago, this guy exudes charm.

    GiantGeek2020ChallMcFodderHeirphysi_marcAbsoluteZerocrzyangoAtomikaBrainiac 8
  • McRhynoMcRhyno Registered User regular
    He doesn't even need a writer. Just let him be himself:


    PSN: ImRyanBurgundy
    OrcaDarlantzeentchlingzepherinGiantGeek2020HappylilElf
  • Shazkar ShadowstormShazkar Shadowstorm Registered User regular
    i enjoy anthony mackie way more in every interview i've seen of him than him as falcon

    give the man some better writing i guess

    poo
    FencingsaxPailryderAbsoluteZeroWhelkOrcatzeentchlingAtlas in ChainszepherinmrpakudanxKanaautono-wally, erotibot300
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    He's like Will Smith but dialed up to 20 somehow

    Xbox - Local H Jay
    PS - Local_H_Jay
    Sub me on Youtube
    And Twitch
    zepherin
  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    edited November 24
    He's like Will Smith but dialed up to 20 somehow
    According to Burt Kreischer, Will Smiths power, is he has a python for a dong.

    zepherin on
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    He's like Will Smith but dialed up to 20 somehow

    With less scientology school, to boot!

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
    zepherinLocal H JayXantomas
  • AtomikaAtomika Cinema Vampire (alleged) Trans 🏳️‍⚧️ SylvaniaRegistered User regular
    I’m gonna do a deeper dive later but Eternals was really, really good, y’all

    Not great, but really good

    A- effort

    chrono_travellerOrcaMcFodderBrainiac 8Shadowfire
  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    Re: Eternals: I was quite startled at the reminder that Kit Harington can be a really engaging actor. It feels like such a long time since the Jon Snow-Ygritte romance.

    Thirith on
    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
    AtomikaMsAnthropy
  • AtomikaAtomika Cinema Vampire (alleged) Trans 🏳️‍⚧️ SylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Thirith wrote: »
    Re: Eternals: I was quite startled at the reminder that Kit Harington can be a really engaging actor. It feels like such a long time since the Jon Snow-Ygritte romance.

    Agreed. It’s a shame the movie doesn’t have more for him to do other than be a plot device and hook for other films

  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    True, but the film already has a lot of characters to work with. I'm fine with his part being more of a cameo and an indication that there's more to come (though I'm not really feeling most of these winks at future MCU stories in Phase 4, other than perhaps the Black Widow one).

    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
    AtomikaFencingsaxOrca
  • AtomikaAtomika Cinema Vampire (alleged) Trans 🏳️‍⚧️ SylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited November 25
    Marvel’s Eternals, or
    - Existential Crisis on Finite Earths, or
    - How to Kill a God in 7 Days, or
    - The Whale



    iymcyyznm1s8.jpeg



    What a lovely, unexpected surprise. I really had no idea what to expect going in, but I imagine that’s the norm here; nobody knows who the Eternals are. But it turns out we do! We’ve known them all along! The superhero movie was coming from inside the house 😵

    I now can see why the ad campaign was so vague and nebulous, there are some really good story beats here that were much better for not being spoiled. And on that note:

    The Good:
    - What a surprisingly mature and emotionally-complex story! The movie puts these characters in an unwinnable situation, where none of them hate each other despite their huge ideological differences, and finds a resolution that doesn’t require punching? Where everyone keeps their agency and dignity? Where accepting heartache and sacrifice is the choice the heroes have to make? Gah, yes, please give me more stories like this. Just full of wide-eyed melancholy devoid of juvenile angst and grimdarkery, with heroes and villains sharing the same traumas, people of different shapes and colors and ages and abilities making space for and celebrating each other, and actually queer characters.
    - Richard Madden brings a welcome level of gravitas and pathos to Marvel’s Superman analogue (he’s not Superman! he doesn’t wear a cape!) that both Bryan Singer and Zack Snyder reached for but could not grasp, while also finding room to be charming and funny. The end of his story was nebulous, it will be interesting to see if he pops up again in Eternals 2: The Search for More Eternals or any of the six other conceivable franchises in the stable he’d slip right into, I’d love to see more.
    - Bryan Tyree Henry’s Phaustus is such an icon, omg. Proud gay black plus-size dad whose superpower is basically being really smart and sensitive? This is the kind of thing I love about Marvel, they’re so good at making characters you feel like you’ve met before or could be in a different life. Phaustus is just a good dude.
    - Angelina Jolie’s Thena is my favorite character in this and I’m still shocked at the levels working here in the writing for her. I’m really thankful for the longer runtime as it allows not just for the tone to settle, it lets the character moments breathe organically. Thena is a living load-bearing pillar of grief and trauma and she’s starting to break, like any of us would, and she knows it and she constantly chooses to reach out to her family for help. She is the world’s healthiest mentally-ill person, and stays healthy via acceptance and grounding herself in purpose. Sure, she might dissociate and go on a killing spree every once in a while, but who among us hasn’t?
    - Sprite! I did not expect to love this character so much! Like the rest of her family, Sprite carries this intense weariness and longing, but when done by a talented child actor it really sells the heft. I’m sad we likely won’t see more of her, but what a touching end to her arc.
    - Murkari is wonderful and I only wanted more, and I even found myself hating Druig far less than I expected to.
    - The finale was so dense, emotionally, there were several parts I couldn’t help but cry. Just the goddamn weight of it all, nobody being in the wrong despite being torn apart from each other, the massive scope of loss for any outcome, the frustration and hopelessness of it all. Just . . . this is absolute next level stuff for superhero flicks. The choice Tiamut makes when it’s faced with the truth of what its birth will cost . . . just heartrending. Ugh.


    The Bad:
    - I know Gemma Chan can act. I’ve seen it. So why is she such a blank here? Like, almost purposefully nondescript. I know part of her arc is being a contrast to the more powerful members, but does that mean she can’t have a personality? She’s the main character! This seems like a huge unforced error, which I lay entirely at the feet of the writers. Quick, give me two descriptors of Sersi that aren’t her power set or physical appearance. I’ll wait.
    - The Deviants are the key antagonist focus for most of the film and they have virtually no personality, they’re just wild animals. Then the second they finally become interesting, they’re snuffed out completely. There was a lot more to mine with their shared past with the Eternals and we should have gotten more.
    - There were at least two needle-drops that seemed really forced and on-the-nose, both pulled me out of the film.


    The Snugly:
    - Did I black out? I don’t remember where Kingo was during the finale at all. Then he’s just there at the end being friends again with everyone.
    - Kit Harrington’s Dane Whitman is mostly relegated to being a plot facilitator while he has his own, completely unrelated movie going on in the background. It’s almost funny, he’s literally starting the Black Knight origin story in the margins of a movie he’s not even really in.
    - I was dreading the Harry Styles cameo and then it was amazing, so that’s on me.
    - Blade?
    - Goddamn Blade?
    - In a movie about aliens and magic swords and Greek gods?
    - Oh fuck
    - I got it
    - Eternals 2: Blade Runners
    - You know, because they’re synthetic humanoids
    - And, like, Blade
    - The vampire guy
    - Shut up, it’s fucking funny and has layers


    In summary, Eternals is a land of contrasts enormous aliens

    Atomika on
    ThirithjoshgotroDark Raven XOrcaEmperorSethGolden YakShadowenXantomaslunchbox12682Shadowfire
  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    I do think that the MCU and Chloe Zhao are an odd couple that, in some cases, produced something surprisingly sweet and in others just sits there, looking somewhat ungainly - but I would definitely say that the experiment was worth it. However, I think it's this uneasy blend may be why it wasn't entirely easy to package the appeal of the film into a trailer or two (and, a bit like Pixar, I've rarely found the MCU trailer game to be particularly good).

    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
    AtomikaOrca
  • tzeentchlingtzeentchling Doctor of Rocks OaklandRegistered User regular
    Atomika wrote: »
    Marvel’s Eternals, or
    - Existential Crisis on Finite Earths, or
    - How to Kill a God in 7 Days, or
    - The Whale



    iymcyyznm1s8.jpeg



    What a lovely, unexpected surprise. I really had no idea what to expect going in, but I imagine that’s the norm here; nobody knows who the Eternals are. But it turns out we do! We’ve known them all along! The superhero movie was coming from inside the house 😵

    I now can see why the ad campaign was so vague and nebulous, there are some really good story beats here that were much better for not being spoiled. And on that note:

    The Good:
    - What a surprisingly mature and emotionally-complex story! The movie puts these characters in an unwinnable situation, where none of them hate each other despite their huge ideological differences, and finds a resolution that doesn’t require punching? Where everyone keeps their agency and dignity? Where accepting heartache and sacrifice is the choice the heroes have to make? Gah, yes, please give me more stories like this. Just full of wide-eyed melancholy devoid of juvenile angst and grimdarkery, with heroes and villains sharing the same traumas, people of different shapes and colors and ages and abilities making space for and celebrating each other, and actually queer characters.
    - Richard Madden brings a welcome level of gravitas and pathos to Marvel’s Superman analogue (he’s not Superman! he doesn’t wear a cape!) that both Bryan Singer and Zack Snyder reached for but could not grasp, while also finding room to be charming and funny. The end of his story was nebulous, it will be interesting to see if he pops up again in Eternals 2: The Search for More Eternals or any of the six other conceivable franchises in the stable he’d slip right into, I’d love to see more.
    - Bryan Tyree Henry’s Phaustus is such an icon, omg. Proud gay black plus-size dad whose superpower is basically being really smart and sensitive? This is the kind of thing I love about Marvel, they’re so good at making characters you feel like you’ve met before or could be in a different life. Phaustus is just a good dude.
    - Angelina Jolie’s Thena is my favorite character in this and I’m still shocked at the levels working here in the writing for her. I’m really thankful for the longer runtime as it allows not just for the tone to settle, it lets the character moments breathe organically. Thena is a living load-bearing pillar of grief and trauma and she’s starting to break, like any of us would, and she knows it and she constantly chooses to reach out to her family for help. She is the world’s healthiest mentally-ill person, and stays healthy via acceptance and grounding herself in purpose. Sure, she might dissociate and go on a killing spree every once in a while, but who among us hasn’t?
    - Sprite! I did not expect to love this character so much! Like the rest of her family, Sprite carries this intense weariness and longing, but when done by a talented child actor it really sells the heft. I’m sad we likely won’t see more of her, but what a touching end to her arc.
    - Murkari is wonderful and I only wanted more, and I even found myself hating Druig far less than I expected to.
    - The finale was so dense, emotionally, there were several parts I couldn’t help but cry. Just the goddamn weight of it all, nobody being in the wrong despite being torn apart from each other, the massive scope of loss for any outcome, the frustration and hopelessness of it all. Just . . . this is absolute next level stuff for superhero flicks. The choice Tiamut makes when it’s faced with the truth of what its birth will cost . . . just heartrending. Ugh.


    The Bad:
    - I know Gemma Chan can act. I’ve seen it. So why is she such a blank here? Like, almost purposefully nondescript. I know part of her arc is being a contrast to the more powerful members, but does that mean she can’t have a personality? She’s the main character! This seems like a huge unforced error, which I lay entirely at the feet of the writers. Quick, give me two descriptors of Sersi that aren’t her power set or physical appearance. I’ll wait.
    - The Deviants are the key antagonist focus for most of the film and they have virtually no personality, they’re just wild animals. Then the second they finally become interesting, they’re snuffed out completely. There was a lot more to mine with their shared past with the Eternals and we should have gotten more.
    - There were at least two needle-drops that seemed really forced and on-the-nose, both pulled me out of the film.


    The Snugly:
    - Did I black out? I don’t remember where Kingo was during the finale at all. Then he’s just there at the end being friends again with everyone.
    - Kit Harrington’s Dane Whitman is mostly relegated to being a plot facilitator while he has his own, completely unrelated movie going on in the background. It’s almost funny, he’s literally starting the Black Knight origin story in the margins of a movie he’s not even really in.
    - I was dreading the Harry Styles cameo and then it was amazing, so that’s on me.
    - Blade?
    - Goddamn Blade?
    - In a movie about aliens and magic swords and Greek gods?
    - Oh fuck
    - I got it
    - Eternals 2: Blade Runners
    - You know, because they’re synthetic humanoids
    - And, like, Blade
    - The vampire guy
    - Shut up, it’s fucking funny and has layers


    In summary, Eternals is a land of contrasts enormous aliens

    Re: Kingo
    He basically peaces out once Ikaris reveals his plan to let the Celestial emerge. Kingo doesn't want the Celestial to emerge but also can't reconcile trying to stop it with the argument that ultimately Celestials help create billions of lives and more galaxies etc. There's also, I think, a bit of not wanting to fight against Ikaris who has been his millenia-long mancrush and the person he always looked up to. Philosophically it's reasonable, but movie-wise it's definitely a puzzling decision to not have him present at the climax of the film and it makes me wonder if there was some sort of availability conflict or COVID challenge or something.

    AtomikaMarathonOrcaGolden Yak
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    Re: Kingo
    If I recall correctly he explicitly says "I agree with Ikaris, but don't want to fight you all over it" and just goes off to wait for the end of the world. There's no ambiguity in-setting and on a meta level I imagine they thought they had too many characters in there, so to give more screentime to the others, especially those they just now added to the team, one of the guys in the first half of the film sits out.

    Golden Yak
  • AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    If anyone has not considered the Guardians of the Galaxy game because it's from the same publisher as the Avengers shitshow, give it a go. It's based on the comics so there is tonnes of lore and cameos and the scope is huge. The writing is really solid and they've got the humor down really well. It's technically unsound, had a lot of glitches though nothing gamebreaking and characters skip dialogue if you walk too far, but it's a brilliant comic book adventure. I'd say it's better than Spider-Man PS4 in terms of being a comic book game, but the combat is significantly worse.

    ArteenZek
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