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[MCU Movies] Spider-Man and Dr. Strange talk in their own threads!

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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    a nu start wrote: »
    jimb213 wrote: »
    I watched Shang Chi last night as well, and I agree with what pretty much everyone else is saying. It was freaking awesome! And I also agree that it would've been better without the full CGI battle at the end.

    I do have a question about the mid-credits scene.
    Why was Banner back to being Banner? What happened to Professor Hulk? Sorry if it's already been asked/answered; I only skim the thread until I've seen the movie I want to talk about.

    Don't think we know.

    Speculation:
    Gonna guess we find out more in She-Hulk series.

    So let me talk about superhero fatigue. Spoilers for Falcon and the Winter Soldier (and Endgame I guess).
    Falcon and the Winter Soldier ends up with the Falcon becoming Captain America. Since he ends Endgame with the shield, when he shows up again in another movie as Captain America, it's a logical through-line. That makes the FatWS show extra flavor, and not really necessary viewing (yet).

    But one of the most common complaints I saw about Endgame was how all the Professor Hulk happened off screen. Now imagine that all happened in a TV show (or maybe the reverse like you hint at). When people end one movie and start another in drastically different places, then it makes that TV/Disney+ series feel like it's a more required viewing. It all depends on how dramatic the changes and how well the next movie explains things.

    Basically, everyone's tolerance on movie and TV show integration is different. But I think I may be reaching my limit.

    I understand your point but....eh.

    Hulk has gotten pretty short shrift on all of his storylines. Some of this was the fucked up distribution rights for him and some of it being simple hulk stories are kind of trash for big movies. Hulk books, when they're good, have always been about internal struggles and identity and a bunch of other things that are hard to wrap up in 118 minutes. Hulk stories are a much better fit for this limited series sort of thing they've got going. It sort of sucks he's still not gonna have his own series but he's a pretty natural fit in She-Hulk.

    The MCU movies already have a kind of absurd time commitment if you want to understand all the cross references. It is when those references become a hindrance to the main story that we start to have an issue. Obviously we may be approaching that level for you, it isn't there yet for me. Though I am enjoying all the Disney+ stuff so far so I may not be the market segment that is going to suffer for this.

    I would go further and say "IF you saw Endgame, and are surprised with Falcon as CA, you missed the point. If you saw EVERY movie prior to End Game, and were surprised by Professor Hulk, WELCOME TO THE PARTY PAL. These two issues aren't remotely related story telling wise, but are both possible issues.

    What I'm getting at is, one of these is possibly superhero fatigue, the other is WTF writing. Hopefully we'll see something in She-Hulk, but that represents like 7-10 years of storytelling time, and a primary character not getting explained in a primary storyline, and that's just bad.

    The dumbest thing? A simple, 60-120 second montage of Banner trying to get the Hulk back out via experiments due to his failure in IW would have been both on point in the message of the movie, and explained EVERYTHING. Literally as a flip view of Thor's version of PTSD. (IE: Overcompensation)

  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    I saw Eternals! It's really good!

    Without spoilers, it is the most non-Marvel Marvel film out there yet and I am here for it. Relationships matter in this film in a way that they don't in any other except the Thor films, where it's about family. Here, it's friends, colleagues, and lovers, and all the messiness that results.

    Half the powers feel ripped off from DC, but they still pull it off well.

    Gimme more from Chloe Zhao, she did great. I'll have to check out the rest of her filmography.

    jimb213kime
  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    oooh

    that's gotta hurt

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    a nu start wrote: »
    jimb213 wrote: »
    I watched Shang Chi last night as well, and I agree with what pretty much everyone else is saying. It was freaking awesome! And I also agree that it would've been better without the full CGI battle at the end.

    I do have a question about the mid-credits scene.
    Why was Banner back to being Banner? What happened to Professor Hulk? Sorry if it's already been asked/answered; I only skim the thread until I've seen the movie I want to talk about.

    Don't think we know.

    Speculation:
    Gonna guess we find out more in She-Hulk series.

    So let me talk about superhero fatigue. Spoilers for Falcon and the Winter Soldier (and Endgame I guess).
    Falcon and the Winter Soldier ends up with the Falcon becoming Captain America. Since he ends Endgame with the shield, when he shows up again in another movie as Captain America, it's a logical through-line. That makes the FatWS show extra flavor, and not really necessary viewing (yet).

    But one of the most common complaints I saw about Endgame was how all the Professor Hulk happened off screen. Now imagine that all happened in a TV show (or maybe the reverse like you hint at). When people end one movie and start another in drastically different places, then it makes that TV/Disney+ series feel like it's a more required viewing. It all depends on how dramatic the changes and how well the next movie explains things.

    Basically, everyone's tolerance on movie and TV show integration is different. But I think I may be reaching my limit.

    I understand your point but....eh.

    Hulk has gotten pretty short shrift on all of his storylines. Some of this was the fucked up distribution rights for him and some of it being simple hulk stories are kind of trash for big movies. Hulk books, when they're good, have always been about internal struggles and identity and a bunch of other things that are hard to wrap up in 118 minutes. Hulk stories are a much better fit for this limited series sort of thing they've got going. It sort of sucks he's still not gonna have his own series but he's a pretty natural fit in She-Hulk.

    The MCU movies already have a kind of absurd time commitment if you want to understand all the cross references. It is when those references become a hindrance to the main story that we start to have an issue. Obviously we may be approaching that level for you, it isn't there yet for me. Though I am enjoying all the Disney+ stuff so far so I may not be the market segment that is going to suffer for this.

    I would go further and say "IF you saw Endgame, and are surprised with Falcon as CA, you missed the point. If you saw EVERY movie prior to End Game, and were surprised by Professor Hulk, WELCOME TO THE PARTY PAL. These two issues aren't remotely related story telling wise, but are both possible issues.

    What I'm getting at is, one of these is possibly superhero fatigue, the other is WTF writing. Hopefully we'll see something in She-Hulk, but that represents like 7-10 years of storytelling time, and a primary character not getting explained in a primary storyline, and that's just bad.

    The dumbest thing? A simple, 60-120 second montage of Banner trying to get the Hulk back out via experiments due to his failure in IW would have been both on point in the message of the movie, and explained EVERYTHING. Literally as a flip view of Thor's version of PTSD. (IE: Overcompensation)

    I broadly think that big fans overestimate how much needs to be shown/explained to people; banner's arc is a great example of this

    like, if you had only a vague idea of who banner/hulk was you still grasp in pretty short order 'oh, he's resolved some stuff and chilled out, good for him'

    people who're super into the stuff inevitably want to SEE WHAT HAPPENED but it isn't actually important to the story being told in IW

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  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    Nerds' addiction to lore is what's killing a lot of entertainment for me.

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  • joshgotrojoshgotro Deviled Egg The Land of REAL CHILIRegistered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Nerds' addiction to lore is what's killing a lot of entertainment for me.

    You should not be looking at this forum. Run!

    does it?
  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    a nu start wrote: »
    jimb213 wrote: »
    I watched Shang Chi last night as well, and I agree with what pretty much everyone else is saying. It was freaking awesome! And I also agree that it would've been better without the full CGI battle at the end.

    I do have a question about the mid-credits scene.
    Why was Banner back to being Banner? What happened to Professor Hulk? Sorry if it's already been asked/answered; I only skim the thread until I've seen the movie I want to talk about.

    Don't think we know.

    Speculation:
    Gonna guess we find out more in She-Hulk series.

    So let me talk about superhero fatigue. Spoilers for Falcon and the Winter Soldier (and Endgame I guess).
    Falcon and the Winter Soldier ends up with the Falcon becoming Captain America. Since he ends Endgame with the shield, when he shows up again in another movie as Captain America, it's a logical through-line. That makes the FatWS show extra flavor, and not really necessary viewing (yet).

    But one of the most common complaints I saw about Endgame was how all the Professor Hulk happened off screen. Now imagine that all happened in a TV show (or maybe the reverse like you hint at). When people end one movie and start another in drastically different places, then it makes that TV/Disney+ series feel like it's a more required viewing. It all depends on how dramatic the changes and how well the next movie explains things.

    Basically, everyone's tolerance on movie and TV show integration is different. But I think I may be reaching my limit.

    This is one of the reasons I stopped reading Marvel comics, probably in the late 90s. Every other page had a footnote referencing to another series that one would have to read to understand parts of the plot, it felt so forced that there would be issues of big names, like X-men, that felt like an excuse to link a bunch of comics and leaving the storytelling as a secondary concern.

    The MCU still doesnt feel like that, I dont follow any of the TV shows, and I still get all that happens in the movies. Would have to see what happens moving forward. The last MCU movies I watched were Shang Chi and Black Widow, and they felt pretty standalone, they have a couple of cameos or reference to other movies, but even if you are not a "lore guy" you can still understand everything that is going on.

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    FANTOMAS wrote: »
    The MCU still doesnt feel like that, I dont follow any of the TV shows, and I still get all that happens in the movies. Would have to see what happens moving forward. The last MCU movies I watched were Shang Chi and Black Widow, and they felt pretty standalone, they have a couple of cameos or reference to other movies, but even if you are not a "lore guy" you can still understand everything that is going on.

    Yeah, it's an incredibly fine line they're walking, but I think they're still pulling it off for the most part.
    Shang-Chi:
    If you haven't seen Doctor Strange or Infinity War/Endgame, you don't know who Wong is. But the film shows you what you need to when they introduce him; he's some kind of wizard who can take on a huge monster without appearing to be out of his depth. If you know him you can get more out of that (what, he just takes part in a fight club? Hey, maybe it's so he can pay Strange back for that Tuna Melt), but it's enough that when he appears at the end, he's got enough authority to get Shang-Chi and Katy to come with him because that's what they know about him; that magical badass from the fight club wants to talk, okay.

    Even if you don't know who Bruce and Carol are, the conversation tells you enough for that scene; he's the expert on Earth tech, she knows alien tech. You can figure the rest out from there.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    On Hulk getting the short shrift: the Russo brothers have gone on the record as saying they tried very hard to put smart Hulk in Infinity War -- rather than beat whatsisname wit the Hulkbuster suit, he'd hulk out of the Hulkbuster and be smart. I think they even showed that to some test audiences. But they said that for whatever reason, they never could get it to really work.

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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Witches 4 HQRegistered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    On Hulk getting the short shrift: the Russo brothers have gone on the record as saying they tried very hard to put smart Hulk in Infinity War -- rather than beat whatsisname wit the Hulkbuster suit, he'd hulk out of the Hulkbuster and be smart. I think they even showed that to some test audiences. But they said that for whatever reason, they never could get it to really work.

    I think it kind of worked. In IW, they're still at odds with each other. In Endgame, they've worked things out.

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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Don't get me wrong, in the end I was fine with it. It just kind of feels like having Luke or Han's journey, but without Empire.

    I actually think they missed a great opportunity for a Hulk movie between the two. A much less smashy much more discussion of emotions and the damage they can cause when unchecked. If you were careful, you could do a lot to really have a discussion on things like bipolar problems and working to come to terms with them. Base it around the fact that neither Banner nor Hulk could do a whole more than just be sidelined in IW, and find a way to work together, resulting in Prof Hulk being a major help in EG.

    cj iwakura
  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    I figure at some point we'll get something set during the five year gap (though it'd have to avoid featuring Steve or Tony and so on, as I doubt they'd come back for cameos at this point). They could have some references to Banner there, though I'm not sure where they are legally with doing an actual Hulk movie with him as the main character.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Witches 4 HQRegistered User regular
    I would've loved a Black Widow/Hulk team up movie, though stealthy it wouldn't have been. :lol:

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  • SlortexSlortex In my chairRegistered User regular
    Loved Shang Chi, but I wish the sister had been involved in at least part of the last fight against the dad.

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  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    Sony is doing a screening tomorrow for No Way Home's Trailer.

    The trailer, not the movie.

    Fucking wild and good job on the marketing that they can get away with it.

    They promise BIG surprises in attendance, so that's as much as a confirmation of who will be in the trailer.

  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    I would've loved a Black Widow/Hulk team up movie, though stealthy it wouldn't have been. :lol:

    I figure they could totally have it work out in an Inspector Gadget kinda way where Widow has to fix all the problems around what the Hulk was doing. Except this could tie into the emotional growth of merging the two personalities into one as Hulk figures out he's causing people he likes distress.

    cj iwakura
  • ManetherenWolfManetherenWolf Registered User regular
    Kyougu wrote: »
    Sony is doing a screening tomorrow for No Way Home's Trailer.

    The trailer, not the movie.

    Fucking wild and good job on the marketing that they can get away with it.

    They promise BIG surprises in attendance, so that's as much as a confirmation of who will be in the trailer.

    Yeah twitter is pretty much full of talk that
    Holland, Tobey Maguire, and Andrew Garfield have all been spotted in LA now too (where the event is happening).

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    This may be the worst kept secret in Hollywood history

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Kyougu wrote: »
    Sony is doing a screening tomorrow for No Way Home's Trailer.

    The trailer, not the movie.

    Fucking wild and good job on the marketing that they can get away with it.

    They promise BIG surprises in attendance, so that's as much as a confirmation of who will be in the trailer.

    Yeah twitter is pretty much full of talk that
    Holland, Tobey Maguire, and Andrew Garfield have all been spotted in LA now too (where the event is happening).
    On the one hand, sure. On the other, they are actors and it’s LA.

    I fully believe they are in the movie, but still

    Pailryder
  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Abomination
    was never killed, that was sort of a "this is as far as I will go" thing for Hulk even when raging it up. He stops before finishing Abomination off, then leaves the mess to the person who created it: Ross.

    As for why the two left together, it could very well be a rehabilitation thing for Abomination. You've got somebody Hulk-strong and Hulk-tough with a bad attitude and what're you going to do with him? Keep him in prison and hope he can of old age? Or try to make him at least moderately less murdery?
    As far as I'm aware, I think I heard Agents of SHIELD briefly addressed this by saying he was in some prison in Alaska or something? (I'm at work or I'd google) This was back when the show was still being considered canon and the movies would make tiny offhand references to it. I believe that's where he was being brought to with the sling ring. Maybe it's like, he's under Wong's supervision so he's allowed to do the fights which maybe help with his aggression levels or something I dunno :P Edit: Oh, I forgot, he's going to be in She-Hulk I believe so we might actually get some answers to this stuff in that show.

    Anyways, as far as Shang-chi goes, I'm still kinda trying to decide where it falls on my rankings of MCU movies. But it's definitely near the top. I don't think it's my favorite but it's really up there. I watched a reaction over the weekend (which is basically like rewatching it :P) and I forgot some of the great moments in that movie :D (the bus fight is still so cool)

    Katie still best character, needs to be in more movies going forward :3

    Edit: In other news:

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  • AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    A stupid decision but goes hand in hand with the decision to keep Wright about

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Idk it's to honor his memory. It's not like Marvel is hurting for other cool heroes to introduce

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  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Idk it's to honor his memory. It's not like Marvel is hurting for other cool heroes to introduce

    Yeah honestly I am cool with it. Chadwick was cool and it's not like it was with the other recasts where they asked for more money or stupid reasons like that. It would kind of feel weird if they recast him.

    Plus, I mean, personally I think it also helps make for a little more interesting storytelling? Black Panther's death makes for an decent jumping off point to tell a good story. Sometimes I think writers can be at their best when they have to work around complications like this.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    BP introduced more than enough characters to take on the titular role. Having T’Challa as a deceased source of inspiration opens up some interesting possibilities. The new BP is going to, I assume, work towards furthering T’Challa’s vision; but how much should you adhere to what a dead person wanted? How much do all the characters even know about the details of what he wanted?

    There’s a whole lot of stuff that could make for great storytelling.

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  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    Slortex wrote: »
    Loved Shang Chi, but I wish the sister had been involved in at least part of the last fight against the dad.
    Yeah on reflection it would have made more sense for the sister to have joined the fight / shot the dragon in the throat and have Katy “drive” the dragon.

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  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
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  • eMoandereMoander Registered User regular
    I finally saw and enjoyed Shang-Chi!
    The part I didn't like was the dad being played as such an evil guy. I mean, he was also in grief and just wanted to see his wife again.

    It felt really jarring that Shang-Chi went right to 'I'm going to kill him!' in the prep for the battle, and then immediately went back to 'I'm going to save him!' during the battle. Like I get he wasn't a great father, but it would have been a lot more consistent if they could have built on the reformed guy needs some help to stay on the wagon angle and been a little more sympathetic.

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  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    How long before we have the taster for the teaser for the trailer for the movie?

  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Nosf wrote: »
    How long before we have the taster for the teaser for the trailer for the movie?

    I swear we're already there.

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  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    Warlock82 wrote: »

    I'm dying at that tiny Green Goblin in the background.

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Idk it's to honor his memory. It's not like Marvel is hurting for other cool heroes to introduce

    Yeah, not recasting T'Challa is 100% the right move. Nobody is going to be Boseman's T'Challa and he was great with the time he had with the role. The character also has a whole pile of people to take over the mantle without missing a step

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    How long before we have the taster for the teaser for the trailer for the movie?

    I swear we're already there.

    I believe those are countdown clocks.

  • A Half Eaten OreoA Half Eaten Oreo Registered User regular
    eMoander wrote: »
    I finally saw and enjoyed Shang-Chi!
    The part I didn't like was the dad being played as such an evil guy. I mean, he was also in grief and just wanted to see his wife again.

    It felt really jarring that Shang-Chi went right to 'I'm going to kill him!' in the prep for the battle, and then immediately went back to 'I'm going to save him!' during the battle. Like I get he wasn't a great father, but it would have been a lot more consistent if they could have built on the reformed guy needs some help to stay on the wagon angle and been a little more sympathetic.
    I overall really enjoyed it, but how quickly the protagonists ruled out the possibility that the father could somehow be correct in the MCU world felt weird. They reference the blip, this is MCU earth a million movies in, yet the heroes refuse to give a second thought that there's a chance that the mother's soul is actually trapped.

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  • iguanacusiguanacus Desert PlanetRegistered User regular
    eMoander wrote: »
    I finally saw and enjoyed Shang-Chi!
    The part I didn't like was the dad being played as such an evil guy. I mean, he was also in grief and just wanted to see his wife again.

    It felt really jarring that Shang-Chi went right to 'I'm going to kill him!' in the prep for the battle, and then immediately went back to 'I'm going to save him!' during the battle. Like I get he wasn't a great father, but it would have been a lot more consistent if they could have built on the reformed guy needs some help to stay on the wagon angle and been a little more sympathetic.
    I overall really enjoyed it, but how quickly the protagonists ruled out the possibility that the father could somehow be correct in the MCU world felt weird. They reference the blip, this is MCU earth a million movies in, yet the heroes refuse to give a second thought that there's a chance that the mother's soul is actually trapped.
    Keep in mind though, for only about 15 or so years out of his 2 thousand plus life was he not a total bastard. His mother in the narrating story to Shang that he really only ever cared for power. Shang-Chi saw what he feels is his father's true nature first hand when they went to avenge his mother.

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  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    Warlock82 wrote: »

    Pretty cool they have the eye of a Celestial in the background of the poster like that

  • lunchbox12682lunchbox12682 MinnesotaRegistered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    I would've loved a Black Widow/Hulk team up movie, though stealthy it wouldn't have been. :lol:

    I think King Shark disproves that it's impossible.

  • Snake GandhiSnake Gandhi Des Moines, IARegistered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    I would've loved a Black Widow/Hulk team up movie, though stealthy it wouldn't have been. :lol:

    I think King Shark disproves that it's impossible.
    Now I'm imagining Natasha sneaking into a military base and looking over and seeing a tank slowly walking by, a pair of big green feet visible underneath it.

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    eMoander wrote: »
    I finally saw and enjoyed Shang-Chi!
    The part I didn't like was the dad being played as such an evil guy. I mean, he was also in grief and just wanted to see his wife again.

    It felt really jarring that Shang-Chi went right to 'I'm going to kill him!' in the prep for the battle, and then immediately went back to 'I'm going to save him!' during the battle. Like I get he wasn't a great father, but it would have been a lot more consistent if they could have built on the reformed guy needs some help to stay on the wagon angle and been a little more sympathetic.
    I overall really enjoyed it, but how quickly the protagonists ruled out the possibility that the father could somehow be correct in the MCU world felt weird. They reference the blip, this is MCU earth a million movies in, yet the heroes refuse to give a second thought that there's a chance that the mother's soul is actually trapped.
    They did mention "I thought he was just nuts, but then a dragon statue made a magical map so IDK". but once they got there they got another explanation with a lot more evidence backing it up than the word of a grieving megalomaniac.
    It's not like a case oh 'oh that's silly, ghosts don't exist'. There were two outlandish sounding stories, and they chose to believe the one that seemed more likely in the circumstances.

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  • ManetherenWolfManetherenWolf Registered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    How long before we have the taster for the teaser for the trailer for the movie?



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