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[MCU Movies] Thor: Love and Thunder hits on July 8 CLOSED SPOILERS

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  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited May 24
    The most godlike beings introduced in the MCU to date are the TVA, in my opinion. Even more so than the Eternals; these fuckers deal with an infinite number of eternals and titans and make sure they all run in the right direction, and have technology that can disable “gods”

    Oh - and infinity stones are rendered inert from their tech as well.

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited May 24
    The infinity stones are inert when they are out of their home universe. It’s not technology from the TVA that depowers them.

    Marathon on
    kime
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    In What If Ultron doesn't seem to be limited by universe.

    However the TVA is likely outside ANY universe. In the comics, Kang's home, Alioth, the TVA, and a few other things were in a kind of nowhere plane where anything dislodged from time ended up.

    HappylilElf
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    In What If Ultron doesn't seem to be limited by universe.

    However the TVA is likely outside ANY universe. In the comics, Kang's home, Alioth, the TVA, and a few other things were in a kind of nowhere plane where anything dislodged from time ended up.

    Yeah the stones work fine outside their own universe; otherwise the premise of Endgame is null. The TVA itself is what turns the Infinity Stones into paperweights.

    I still wish Loki had stolen a time gem from the drawer. Just in case.

    HeirTofystedethGnizmoQuid
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    In What If Ultron doesn't seem to be limited by universe.

    However the TVA is likely outside ANY universe. In the comics, Kang's home, Alioth, the TVA, and a few other things were in a kind of nowhere plane where anything dislodged from time ended up.

    Yeah the stones work fine outside their own universe; otherwise the premise of Endgame is null. The TVA itself is what turns the Infinity Stones into paperweights.

    I still wish Loki had stolen a time gem from the drawer. Just in case.

    Endgame keeps the stones within the universe.

    Marathonkime
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited May 24
    Even the comics are all over on this, honestly. One of the few things that's gotten the Living Tribunal to come kick a mortal's ass is getting two sets of infinity stones in one universe and threatening the balance (others include having two Sorcerers Supreme or an extra Starbrand in one universe - basically all the supreme powers are one per universe and having extras means you get a visit from the big guy).

    But then THIS happened:
    rktm49u18b82.png
    Which is the first time the stones didn't work outside their home universe. However, the DC Multiverse is not part of the Marvel Multiverse, they're both part of an even larger shared Omniverse. So this *maybe* only established that the stones don't work outside the Multiverse.

    Still, this goes on to be the crux of the whole Secret Wars arc, the destruction of all but one of the Stones, and their later reappearance - the stones are specific to their universe and go inert elsewhere, so even an Infinity Gauntlet can't solve the incursion problems.

    Hevach on
    Dark Raven X
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    In What If Ultron doesn't seem to be limited by universe.

    However the TVA is likely outside ANY universe. In the comics, Kang's home, Alioth, the TVA, and a few other things were in a kind of nowhere plane where anything dislodged from time ended up.

    Yeah the stones work fine outside their own universe; otherwise the premise of Endgame is null. The TVA itself is what turns the Infinity Stones into paperweights.

    I still wish Loki had stolen a time gem from the drawer. Just in case.

    Endgame keeps the stones within the universe.

    Only afterwards. When they are used (twice!) it's in 616...as opposed to whatever number Christine gave the alternate 2012/2014/whatever year in the 70s it was.

  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    In What If Ultron doesn't seem to be limited by universe.

    However the TVA is likely outside ANY universe. In the comics, Kang's home, Alioth, the TVA, and a few other things were in a kind of nowhere plane where anything dislodged from time ended up.

    I'm told it's because they still affect him which allows for some loophole-ing. Like, he couldn't snap people out of existence, but he could generate anything from him own body.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited May 24
    When you say 616, do you mean the MCU?

    Also, the same timelines are the same Universe, otherwise the time stone would be functionally nothing.

    Fencingsax on
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    It was the same timeline, until Loki made off with the tesseract which did not happen originally

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    I think the MCU doesn’t consider some of these slight branches in timelines as entirely different universes. So Loki is still in the 616 universe even after he takes the tesseract.

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    I think the MCU doesn’t consider some of these slight branches in
    timelines as entirely different universes. So Loki is still in the 616 universe even after he takes the tesseract.
    The TVA only shows up to take variants and prune timelines. So him getting taken by the TVA (and they bomb the 2014 timeline) means it was a different timeline after they goofed up the time heist

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    I agree, it’s a different timeline. But still the same 616 universe.

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    It likely would have resulted in a different universe if allowed to go on. Like Old Loki and his universe only managed to continue on because he stayed in hiding. When he tried to to find Thor, instantly pruned. Because doing so caused a Nexus event or whatever

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    I think they make sort of a distinction between the two, is what I’m saying.

    The universe with Reed and the Illuminati wasn’t pruned, because it’s an entirely whole and separate universe. It could have its own branches in it’s timeline, but those branches are part of that original universe.

  • ZavianZavian universal peace sounds better than forever war Registered User regular
    just like the comics, plot holes are usually there cause of lazy writing versus some deeper meaning

    OrcaLanlaorn
  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    Zavian wrote: »
    just like the comics, plot holes are usually there cause of lazy writing versus some deeper meaning

    They're also inevitable given they made the decision to fuck around with time. Once you do that you may as well give up.

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  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    When you say 616, do you mean the MCU?

    Also, the same timelines are the same Universe, otherwise the time stone would be functionally nothing.

    I don't think that tracks.

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    I think they make sort of a distinction between the two, is what I’m saying.

    The universe with Reed and the Illuminati wasn’t pruned, because it’s an entirely whole and separate universe. It could have its own branches in it’s timeline, but those branches are part of that original universe.

    It's unclear if these alt universes have always been around or the TVA dying opened up the multiverse. Existence of a Reed does imply Kang...

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    When you say 616, do you mean the MCU?

    Also, the same timelines are the same Universe, otherwise the time stone would be functionally nothing.

    I don't think that tracks.

    Yeah, there's nothing whatsoever shown or stated that the time of a specific reality is tied to a specific Time Stone. The stones aren't even necessary for those elements of reality to exists and are merely a way to control them; Thanos destroys the lot of them for the MCU and the universe has (thus far) suffered no ill effects.

    Further, the Ancient One's diagram distinctly shows that the removal of the stones from the timeline will create a branching reality which, without the stones to defend it, would likely end up destroyed. The only reason the Time Squad goes back to their own timeline is from the Stark tech, otherwise they'd just end up in a future of the timeline they're in. Returning the stones to those other timelines isn't at all necessary for the main MCU timeline, but it is necessary for the safety of those other ones.

    Dracomicron
  • ManetherenWolfManetherenWolf Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    I think they make sort of a distinction between the two, is what I’m saying.

    The universe with Reed and the Illuminati wasn’t pruned, because it’s an entirely whole and separate universe. It could have its own branches in it’s timeline, but those branches are part of that original universe.

    As soon as the events of Loki occur the multiverse branching happens and then everything has always occurred.

    Since all of that happened outside of time the effects basically happened in every time simultaneously. Which means even branches that occurred millennia ago and created completely different worlds would have occurred. Those various branches are what create new universes.

    Time travel and branching timelines SUCK for explaining a narrative that makes logical sense.

    Doctor DetroitOrcaDracomicron
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    I think they make sort of a distinction between the two, is what I’m saying.

    The universe with Reed and the Illuminati wasn’t pruned, because it’s an entirely whole and separate universe. It could have its own branches in it’s timeline, but those branches are part of that original universe.

    As soon as the events of Loki occur the multiverse branching happens and then everything has always occurred.

    Since all of that happened outside of time the effects basically happened in every time simultaneously. Which means even branches that occurred millennia ago and created completely different worlds would have occurred. Those various branches are what create new universes.

    Time travel and branching timelines SUCK for explaining a narrative that makes logical sense.

    Yeah, the only reality with a "before" and "after" for multiverse is reality reality, where the MCU didn't have a full-on multiverse before the Loki series and did afterwards. Inside the MCU, there would be no distinction because the pruning was happening in all of time at once and thus infinite branching happened everywhere and everywhen once it stopped.

    Doctor Detroit
  • Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    As I just said in the Dr Strange thread, it’s not explicit yet that an alternate timeline and an alternate universe are the same thing. It would certainly keep things a lot cleaner and avoid a lot of plot conflicts if Kang and TVA are whole different ‘thing’ to Dr Strange’s multiverse. Like each universe can have its own separate branching timeline.

    MhCw7nZ.gif
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited May 24
    Except if branching timelines weren't each a unique reality, there would be no need to prune them. Even if they never say the exact words "every branching timeline is specifically a new reality that creates the multiverse", everything about what the TVA shows and says insists every branched timeline is a new reality. Otherwise, even the main timeline would end up producing infinite Kangs because the infinite multiverse would still necessarily exist, thus producing Kangs and the war across realities and so on. The only timeline which got of a pass from the TVA were the realities the stones were pulled from temporarily, and even those might have gotten wiped out immediately following Rogers returning the stones. Not to mention Loki swiping the Tesseract should've have been a timeline thing, but instead we see that it has become a TVA thing for them to prune. That's a pretty direct example right there that alternate timelines are caused by alternate event.

    Alternate timelines plus alternate realities would be way more overcomplicated and full of plot holes than the MCU being a selection of realities.

    Ninja Snarl P on
    Dracomicron
  • SmurphSmurph Registered User regular
    Here was how I understood it before I saw Dr Strange MoM:

    "dimensions" exist and are totally separate from the MCU universe. Dark Dimension is one of them. You go there, there is not an alternate Dr Strange there to great you.

    "timelines" were the things in Loki when divergences happened and weren't pruned. You go there, there will probably be an alternate version of whoever

    The "universes" in Dr Strange MoM looked a lot more like the "timelines" in Loki, so I assume they only started existing after the end of Loki. But in Dr Strange 1, the "dimensions" clearly existed and when they were falling through the multiverse in MoM, they clearly went through some similarly weird places. So maybe they are two different types of realms, one which is new and related to ours, and one which has always existed.

    God I feel like the Simpsons Comic Book Guy typing all that out.

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I'm guessing the more esoteric multiverses didn't generate a Kang and therefore were left as is

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  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    As I just said in the Dr Strange thread, it’s not explicit yet that an alternate timeline and an alternate universe are the same thing. It would certainly keep things a lot cleaner and avoid a lot of plot conflicts if Kang and TVA are whole different ‘thing’ to Dr Strange’s multiverse. Like each universe can have its own separate branching timeline.

    It doesn't help that the 'multiverse' terminology appears to apply as much to the mirror dimension or dark dimension as it does alternate timelines

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    Aphostile
  • MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular
    Smurph wrote: »
    Here was how I understood it before I saw Dr Strange MoM:

    "dimensions" exist and are totally separate from the MCU universe. Dark Dimension is one of them. You go there, there is not an alternate Dr Strange there to great you.

    "timelines" were the things in Loki when divergences happened and weren't pruned. You go there, there will probably be an alternate version of whoever

    The "universes" in Dr Strange MoM looked a lot more like the "timelines" in Loki, so I assume they only started existing after the end of Loki. But in Dr Strange 1, the "dimensions" clearly existed and when they were falling through the multiverse in MoM, they clearly went through some similarly weird places. So maybe they are two different types of realms, one which is new and related to ours, and one which has always existed.

    God I feel like the Simpsons Comic Book Guy typing all that out.

    This reads like someone talking about the Umbra in old World of Darkness.

    In my upcoming thesis on fitting the MCU into that cosmology, I will begin by proving that Dr. Strange is a Mage and affected by Paradox...

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  • ManetherenWolfManetherenWolf Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    As I just said in the Dr Strange thread, it’s not explicit yet that an alternate timeline and an alternate universe are the same thing. It would certainly keep things a lot cleaner and avoid a lot of plot conflicts if Kang and TVA are whole different ‘thing’ to Dr Strange’s multiverse. Like each universe can have its own separate branching timeline.

    It doesn't help that the 'multiverse' terminology appears to apply as much to the mirror dimension or dark dimension as it does alternate timelines

    Maybe those are universes that diverged so early they became completely different things?

    Dracomicron
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    The Stan Lee cameos were a cute bit of fun and a great way to pay respect to his work on these characters, but keeping the tradition going with a digital necromancy puppet is pretty fucked up IMO.

    They should have Jeffrey Wright start making cameos. He voiced the Watcher in What If and it was heavily implied that Stan Lee was the Watcher in his cameos. Either that or give him a real role in the MCU! We need more Jeffrey Wright in our lives and Marvel should give us that.

    Failing that, have Kevin Feige show up in a cameo at least once. He is the closest thing we got to a heir to Stan Lee.

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  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    As I just said in the Dr Strange thread, it’s not explicit yet that an alternate timeline and an alternate universe are the same thing. It would certainly keep things a lot cleaner and avoid a lot of plot conflicts if Kang and TVA are whole different ‘thing’ to Dr Strange’s multiverse. Like each universe can have its own separate branching timeline.

    It doesn't help that the 'multiverse' terminology appears to apply as much to the mirror dimension or dark dimension as it does alternate timelines

    The dark dimension is an alternate timeline. It's just nobody turned on the lights.

    FencingsaxOrcachrono_traveller
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    When you say 616, do you mean the MCU?

    Also, the same timelines are the same Universe, otherwise the time stone would be functionally nothing.

    I don't think that tracks.

    How does Strange see multiple timelines? How does the stone move foreward and backward through time?

    Obviously, the time stone works within a universe on multiple timelines.

    ZeroCow
  • HeirHeir Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    The Stan Lee cameos were a cute bit of fun and a great way to pay respect to his work on these characters, but keeping the tradition going with a digital necromancy puppet is pretty fucked up IMO.

    They should have Jeffrey Wright start making cameos. He voiced the Watcher in What If and it was heavily implied that Stan Lee was the Watcher in his cameos. Either that or give him a real role in the MCU! We need more Jeffrey Wright in our lives and Marvel should give us that.

    Failing that, have Kevin Feige show up in a cameo at least once. He is the closest thing we got to a heir to Stan Lee.

    Korg. Have Korg in everything.

    camo_sig2.png
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  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    When you say 616, do you mean the MCU?

    Also, the same timelines are the same Universe, otherwise the time stone would be functionally nothing.

    I don't think that tracks.

    How does Strange see multiple timelines? How does the stone move foreward and backward through time?

    Obviously, the time stone works within a universe on multiple timelines.

    It's going to take some effort to convince me a different timeline where everyone is a crocodile-person is not a "different universe" as per Doctor Strange & America Chavez brief montage.

    And weren't these projects released way out of order due to pandemic timing issues affecting filming? The "the writer has a deeper meaning, really!" explanation isn't helped if MoM should have been out before Loki.

    Honestly I don't really care what the answer is if they would just have a character take a minute to explain how the Loki cosmology and Dr. Strange/Spider-man cosmology work together, and bonus points if the resolution of all of this includes a satisfying reason why "Quick, Dr. Strange cast a spell and/or someone get Tony's time dimension jumping machine and let's gather 5 Hulks, 13 Thors and as many Spider-men as we can get to face this foe" is never an option.

  • Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    I was rather surprised that they left the door to the multiverse wide open after Strange rather than hard shutting it down like time travel after Endgame.

    MhCw7nZ.gif
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    edited May 24
    I was rather surprised that they left the door to the multiverse wide open after Strange rather than hard shutting it down like time travel after Endgame.

    Just a bunch of wizards doing a bunch of wizard shit.

    Dracomicron on
    Tofystedeth
  • ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    I was rather surprised that they left the door to the multiverse wide open after Strange rather than hard shutting it down like time travel after Endgame.

    I expect the Multiverse is going to be their key to introduce all the stuff they didn't own when the MCU started and thus couldn't build into the foundation of the MCU.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    When you say 616, do you mean the MCU?

    Also, the same timelines are the same Universe, otherwise the time stone would be functionally nothing.

    I don't think that tracks.

    How does Strange see multiple timelines? How does the stone move foreward and backward through time?

    Obviously, the time stone works within a universe on multiple timelines.

    It's going to take some effort to convince me a different timeline where everyone is a crocodile-person is not a "different universe" as per Doctor Strange & America Chavez brief montage.

    And weren't these projects released way out of order due to pandemic timing issues affecting filming? The "the writer has a deeper meaning, really!" explanation isn't helped if MoM should have been out before Loki.

    Honestly I don't really care what the answer is if they would just have a character take a minute to explain how the Loki cosmology and Dr. Strange/Spider-man cosmology work together, and bonus points if the resolution of all of this includes a satisfying reason why "Quick, Dr. Strange cast a spell and/or someone get Tony's time dimension jumping machine and let's gather 5 Hulks, 13 Thors and as many Spider-men as we can get to face this foe" is never an option.

    We're kind of at an impasse as to what we mean by timeline, and it's one of the reasons I was so cold on Loki.

  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    I was rather surprised that they left the door to the multiverse wide open after Strange rather than hard shutting it down like time travel after Endgame.

    Given how the next movie that touches the quantum realm is featuring Kang, I'm not sure they're really closing it

    steam_sig.png
  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Honestly I don't really care what the answer is if they would just have a character take a minute to explain how the Loki cosmology and Dr. Strange/Spider-man cosmology work together, and bonus points if the resolution of all of this includes a satisfying reason why "Quick, Dr. Strange cast a spell and/or someone get Tony's time dimension jumping machine and let's gather 5 Hulks, 13 Thors and as many Spider-men as we can get to face this foe" is never an option.

    I felt this part was satisfyingly covered in Multiverse of Madness.

    Not sure if MoM talk is okay in here.

This discussion has been closed.