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The Suicide Squad is going to blow your mind [open spoilers]

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  • Raijin QuickfootRaijin Quickfoot I'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    not a problem til it attacks america

    Pretty sure she basically says this in the movie.

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  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    like, amanda waller does not have even a shred of altruism in her. you'd be trying to transpose a level of morality her character does not ever seem to express in the film by wanting her to take out starro. that whole freakout had nothing to do with saving people and every thing to do with her being livid that someone disobeyed her.

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  • #pipe#pipe Cocky Stride, Musky odours Pope of Chili TownRegistered User regular
    Guys...

    Stopping starro was not in the parameters of the mission assigned to her.

    That's kind of her whole deal.

    She has a mission, she achieves mission success, everything else is unimportant.

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  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    not a problem til it attacks america

    Yeah the entire angle of the squad is they solve America’s problems and no one else’s

    I was shocked they let Gunn get away with positioning the US government as the fundamental bad guy the way they did

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  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    "If people knew of an existential threat to the planet they would simply HAVE to try to prevent it, it's unrealistic to have someone behave otherwise" is a very funny thing to earnestly believe on a planet freefalling into climate collapse

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  • Sweeney TomSweeney Tom Registered User regular
    "If people knew of an existential threat to the planet they would simply HAVE to try to prevent it, it's unrealistic to have someone behave otherwise" is a very funny thing to earnestly believe on a planet freefalling into climate collapse

    Particularly timely given today

  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    She even calls out “destabilizing a hostile nation” as a bonus, like… James Gunn has some feelings about American imperialism and interventionism and regime change and that’s pretty wild that some rich suits let him share those feelings

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  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    edited August 2021
    I watched this and overall liked it. A lot of my quibbles are like, dumb nerd shit from having a deep fondness for the Suicide Squad comics and some of the characters within, so I'll recognize that they're not really true complaints.

    That said, I don't love the Waller getting bonked on the head stuff from a couple of angles. One is just that she's the Wall, you don't take her out that easily, and she's a person who has contingency plans for every mission and could probably use her whole team going off script better than just blowing them up for it. Two is that I completely do not buy all of her Checkmate goons growing a conscience at that very moment, and I think it kind of lessens the whole "America is the villain" angle because it makes it look more like Waller was the bad apple or whatever and everyone else had pure enough hearts.

    Straightzi on
  • KetarKetar Come on upstairs we're having a partyRegistered User regular
    Openly engaging Starro out in public is likely to result in people becoming aware of the Suicide Squad. Which actually happened with Bloodsport's daughter seeing him on television. Other people who see famous criminals who are supposed to be in prison in the US fighting some kind of giant monster in another country are going to start asking a lot of questions that Waller is very much trying to avoid.

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  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    I watched this and overall liked it. A lot of my quibbles are like, dumb nerd shit from having a deep fondness for the Suicide Squad comics and some of the characters within, so I'll recognize that they're not really true complaints.

    That said, I don't love the Waller getting bonked on the head stuff from a couple of angles. One is just that she's the Wall, you don't take her out that easily, and she's a person who has contingency plans for every mission and could probably use her whole team going off script better than just blowing them up for it. Two is that I completely do not buy all of her Checkmate goons growing a conscience at that very moment, and I think it kind of lessens the whole "America is the villain" angle because it makes it look more like Waller was the bad apple or whatever and everyone else had pure enough hearts.

    I would agree with that more if they didn’t establish that the Starro experiments were started by the US government in the 60s/70s

    That’s less “Waller is one bad apple” and more “Waller represents all of the bad apples”

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  • A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    Anytime Waller gets bludgeoned in any way is an extra star on the rating for me. In any format. She's an awful person. It might not jibe with her character sometimes but it's a fash-bash so it's a win.

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  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Yeah between Waller's subordinates and even Flagg, it felt more like saying that individual people can be good but the entire apparatus is bad.

    I don't think it really diminished the point that everything in the movie was the fault of US foreign policy.

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  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    I guess I wasn't ready for Waller to be a stand in for self defeating American stupidity, where before I thought of her as a highly competent psychopath. And you ain't gotta be altruistic to realize that a rampaging Starro is an existential threat to the US, just not be a dumbass.

  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    I watched this and overall liked it. A lot of my quibbles are like, dumb nerd shit from having a deep fondness for the Suicide Squad comics and some of the characters within, so I'll recognize that they're not really true complaints.

    That said, I don't love the Waller getting bonked on the head stuff from a couple of angles. One is just that she's the Wall, you don't take her out that easily, and she's a person who has contingency plans for every mission and could probably use her whole team going off script better than just blowing them up for it. Two is that I completely do not buy all of her Checkmate goons growing a conscience at that very moment, and I think it kind of lessens the whole "America is the villain" angle because it makes it look more like Waller was the bad apple or whatever and everyone else had pure enough hearts.

    Regarding Waller's team, there was some clearly established characterization at play in that whole subplot. They establish in the first bit that they're actively betting on and cheering the deaths of the Squad, which makes sense, the first version of the Squad in the movie is the platonic ideal of rotten criminal scum. Weasel killed children, the others are various shade of criminal scum. Besides, they all agreed to take part in the Squad, knowing the risk, that's on them, surely? The first break appears when Waller threatens a minor, using the justice system as a murder weapon, all in order to FORCE an unwilling person to "volunteer". Her team is clearly disturbed, but try to write it off as a threat she doesn't intend to actually carry out. Then later, she confirms that she DOES mean it, further making her team question the moral justification for doing this. Finally, she all but cheers the death of civilian non-combatants, simply because of the state of the government, then threatens to kill everyone who isn't willing to make the inhuman choice. My only qualm is with her waking up post mutiny and not having them killed right away, she's pretty much a psychopath.

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  • cursedkingcursedking Registered User regular
    edited August 2021
    People have layers of morality to them, and even if they objectively conflict with each other will subjectively make sense to the person. It's pretty easy for me to see a member of that team convincing themselves that these criminals deserve no better, and also thinking that letting starro run rampant is a line they would commit team mutiny to prevent.


    edit: also, that scene really works for me because it's really just one person who takes initiative. They all are against it, but they're all also cowed into relenting. It's only when the woman brains Waller that they're all like...well....ok. It's not like everyone in the room has the balls to stand up to her.

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  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    august wrote: »
    I guess I wasn't ready for Waller to be a stand in for self defeating American stupidity, where before I thought of her as a highly competent psychopath. And you ain't gotta be altruistic to realize that a rampaging Starro is an existential threat to the US, just not be a dumbass.

    literally nothing about amanda waller's appearances in the dceu have every given me the impression she was competent

    in fact, both suicide squad films explicitly shatter that facade

    7656367.jpg
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  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    august wrote: »
    I guess I wasn't ready for Waller to be a stand in for self defeating American stupidity, where before I thought of her as a highly competent psychopath. And you ain't gotta be altruistic to realize that a rampaging Starro is an existential threat to the US, just not be a dumbass.

    An existential threat which the league or one of the "heroes" can deal with, not her illegal and off the books task force.

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  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Also This Movie Starro is much less threatening than Comics Starro, I don't believe this Starro represents a existential threat to larger developed nations and actual superheroes

    Fighting it at that moment was just about saving the people there at that time, not about saving the planet

    Kana
  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    I guess part of my thing was that I'd gotten the idea that this iteration of the Suicide Squad had been running for a long time. The betting games, the sort of nonchalance Savant has when he's selected, it was all fairly routine. Which is good, that's a great way to characterize the whole operation.

    But it feels weird for these people (who are mostly just extras and not given much in the way of characterization or an arc) who have been doing this for a long time to suddenly decide that something is too far. If they'd had it be Rick, the loyal subordinate who we've actually gotten to spend time with, choosing to go off mission, then maybe it would have settled better for me.

    It's a minor quibble, in the end, it just felt like it defanged her (and the bureaucracy and governmental power she's the spearpoint of) a bit. In some ways unsurprising, it was the third act of a superhero movie.

    DJ Eebs
  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    august wrote: »
    I guess I wasn't ready for Waller to be a stand in for self defeating American stupidity, where before I thought of her as a highly competent psychopath. And you ain't gotta be altruistic to realize that a rampaging Starro is an existential threat to the US, just not be a dumbass.

    literally nothing about amanda waller's appearances in the dceu have every given me the impression she was competent

    in fact, both suicide squad films explicitly shatter that facade

    (this is definitely the other part of it for me - Waller is one of my favorite comics villains and while she was done better here than in the first movie, it's a shame that she gets kind of continually turned into a chump)

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  • KnobKnob TURN THE BEAT BACK InternetModerator mod
    Amanda Waller is the absolute worst in every piece of DC media ever and I don't care if it made a single lick of sense: her getting el kabonged with a golf club is my #1 favorite moment of any comic book movie.

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  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    Comics starro is such a threat that Daniel the sandman lord of the dreaming once intervened to see him dealt with

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    I guess part of my thing was that I'd gotten the idea that this iteration of the Suicide Squad had been running for a long time. The betting games, the sort of nonchalance Savant has when he's selected, it was all fairly routine. Which is good, that's a great way to characterize the whole operation.

    But it feels weird for these people (who are mostly just extras and not given much in the way of characterization or an arc) who have been doing this for a long time to suddenly decide that something is too far. If they'd had it be Rick, the loyal subordinate who we've actually gotten to spend time with, choosing to go off mission, then maybe it would have settled better for me.

    It's a minor quibble, in the end, it just felt like it defanged her (and the bureaucracy and governmental power she's the spearpoint of) a bit. In some ways unsurprising, it was the third act of a superhero movie.

    The routine is criminal scumbags who agreed to do the missions die in the line of duty (or for refusing orders and therefore potentially being a dangerous, loose criminal), all to complete missions that seem to be to the benefit of the US or its interests. A conscripted non-volunteer who is going to be killed for trying to do unambiguously the right thing is many steps different, morally speaking.

  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    Amanda Waller is a boss who thought emotional blackmail was a fine recruiting tool and who relied on fear to inspire loyalty, she's a real dingdong

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  • cursedkingcursedking Registered User regular
    Knob wrote: »
    Amanda Waller is the absolute worst in every piece of DC media ever and I don't care if it made a single lick of sense: her getting el kabonged with a golf club is my #1 favorite moment of any comic book movie.

    it is such a good, cathartic whammo, sound design visual everything, very satisfying

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  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    I guess part of my thing was that I'd gotten the idea that this iteration of the Suicide Squad had been running for a long time. The betting games, the sort of nonchalance Savant has when he's selected, it was all fairly routine. Which is good, that's a great way to characterize the whole operation.

    But it feels weird for these people (who are mostly just extras and not given much in the way of characterization or an arc) who have been doing this for a long time to suddenly decide that something is too far. If they'd had it be Rick, the loyal subordinate who we've actually gotten to spend time with, choosing to go off mission, then maybe it would have settled better for me.

    It's a minor quibble, in the end, it just felt like it defanged her (and the bureaucracy and governmental power she's the spearpoint of) a bit. In some ways unsurprising, it was the third act of a superhero movie.

    The routine is criminal scumbags who agreed to do the missions die in the line of duty (or for refusing orders and therefore potentially being a dangerous, loose criminal), all to complete missions that seem to be to the benefit of the US or its interests. A conscripted non-volunteer who is going to be killed for trying to do unambiguously the right thing is many steps different, morally speaking.

    They're all conscripted non-volunteers

    Like, even if they volunteer for it, they volunteer while they're in prison - they're always being coerced

    The only person you could consider a true volunteer is Rick Flag

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  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    Bloods End wrote: »
    august wrote: »
    I guess I wasn't ready for Waller to be a stand in for self defeating American stupidity, where before I thought of her as a highly competent psychopath. And you ain't gotta be altruistic to realize that a rampaging Starro is an existential threat to the US, just not be a dumbass.

    An existential threat which the league or one of the "heroes" can deal with, not her illegal and off the books task force.

    Yeah but that's how you get this, which is exactly the kind of thing Waller worries about:

    eat1mnfse6qi.jpg

    Anyway most of my problems with this specific thing are probably from being a comics nerd. I haven't watched a single DCEU movie before this because this seems like it might be the first one worth watching, other than the Harley Quinn movie.

  • cursedkingcursedking Registered User regular
    I also loved the exchange between Elba/Cena at the end of the camp sequence

    Elba - No one likes a show off

    Cena - Unless the thing they're showing off, is fucking dope *explosion*

    Elba, under his breath - Fuck, that's true

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Straightzi wrote: »
    I guess part of my thing was that I'd gotten the idea that this iteration of the Suicide Squad had been running for a long time. The betting games, the sort of nonchalance Savant has when he's selected, it was all fairly routine. Which is good, that's a great way to characterize the whole operation.

    But it feels weird for these people (who are mostly just extras and not given much in the way of characterization or an arc) who have been doing this for a long time to suddenly decide that something is too far. If they'd had it be Rick, the loyal subordinate who we've actually gotten to spend time with, choosing to go off mission, then maybe it would have settled better for me.

    It's a minor quibble, in the end, it just felt like it defanged her (and the bureaucracy and governmental power she's the spearpoint of) a bit. In some ways unsurprising, it was the third act of a superhero movie.

    The routine is criminal scumbags who agreed to do the missions die in the line of duty (or for refusing orders and therefore potentially being a dangerous, loose criminal), all to complete missions that seem to be to the benefit of the US or its interests. A conscripted non-volunteer who is going to be killed for trying to do unambiguously the right thing is many steps different, morally speaking.

    They're all conscripted non-volunteers

    Like, even if they volunteer for it, they volunteer while they're in prison - they're always being coerced

    The only person you could consider a true volunteer is Rick Flag

    I'm talking about the viewpoint of the staff, not a fair moral argument. The way they see it, the criminals in the prison deserve basically nothing, it's just that this mission in particular challenges their assumptions in various ways.

  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    edit: also, that scene really works for me because it's really just one person who takes initiative. They all are against it, but they're all also cowed into relenting. It's only when the woman brains Waller that they're all like...well....ok. It's not like everyone in the room has the balls to stand up to her.

    It's also interesting to note that there are essentially three members of her team that stand out. The woman who knocked her out, the blonde, and the guy.

    After Waller is "back" for lack of a better term, you see the blonde and the guy. You do not see the woman who knocked her out.

    Hmm....

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  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    I love Dream of the Endless written by Neil Gaiman. Sorry, what are we talking about? Oh. I’ll see myself out.

  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a Registered User, Disagreeable regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    Also This Movie Starro is much less threatening than Comics Starro, I don't believe this Starro represents a existential threat to larger developed nations and actual superheroes

    i appreciated how the movie emphasized that starro was just as much a victim of the united states of america as...fucking every character in the movie

    dunno how gunn was allowed to make a big budget superhero movie that says america fuckin sucks, but i'm glad he did

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  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a Registered User, Disagreeable regular
    also a fan of the "little" character things that aren't directly addressed but are informed by other bits about the characters

    bloodsport and peacemaker's backstories are pointed out to be the same thing, but it doesn't need to say "they have different feelings about it because peacemaker is a white american and bloodsport isn't"

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  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    august wrote: »
    I liked it, but - shouldn't Waller know better than anyone that the release of Starro is a protentional Keter class end-of-the-world scenario that needs to be stopped immediately before it spreads? Like that shit doesn't make any fucking sense to me.

    Thats what Superman and the Justice League are for. They can fly in, save the day, be flashy on camera, and fly away.

    Her group should do NOTHING to get into the spotlight. Or on camera. They are a covert OPs team. Plus its a third world country not aligned with America, let the giant monster rampage. (this is Wallers thinking not mine)

  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    there is also the very good allegory of the united states purposely letting a monster loose in latin/central america

    considering, you know

    all that history there

    7656367.jpg
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  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    there is also the very good allegory of the united states purposely letting a monster loose in latin/central america

    considering, you know

    all that history there

    Or seeing a monster and thinking, "Well, that's handy. Let's see how this plays out."

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Keep in mind that while the suicide squad are ultimately disposable, that doesn't mean Waller necessarily wants them all to die. If they managed to survive to that point, that means they're useful. They have value to her. If they get killed or converted fighting Starro, then Waller is back at square one for her little taskforce.

    They're basically being treated as property, authorized and endorsed by the united states. Waller doesn't want her toys broke unless its necessary for her goals.

    Regarding the threat Starro represents, it's absolutely a case of "it's not our problem, when it becomes our problem Superman or the US military can deal with it, not my valuable super secret black ops team."

    Shit, it wouldn't surprise me of the plan was to let it wipe out the entire country and then drop a nuke on it.

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    okay yeah, so Suicide Squad was pretty good, though there were some bits that rubbed me the wrong way

    these were some of the things I really liked though:

    the throughline of Javelin's javelin

    Bloodsport's weapons were all really cool (I especially liked the forearm-mounted slingshot kind of launcher thing)

    James Gunn really knows how to do a needle drop

  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited August 2021
    As I said previously, I think other versions of Waller would be painfully aware that letting Superman handle Starro is a really great way to speedrun yourself into an evil Superman.

    Any other giant monster I'd be right there with you.

    august on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    This incarnation of Waller also thinks that the squad can take superman.
    So 2 birds.

    Mvrck
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