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[Back 4 Blood] from the developers of L4D, Out Now and on Game Pass!

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  • GrundlestiltskinGrundlestiltskin Behind you!Registered User regular
    I'd be really interested to hear them talk about their approach to balancing, since (at least running through Recruit) it seems like difficulty escalates both over the course of a self-contained Act (as you're building up cards/weapons/mods to deal with it) and also between acts in terms of enemy composition, complexity, etc. I wonder how many of the "Recruit is too easy" people made it all the way through all of the acts, or even all of Act I before making that assessment.

    It also makes me wonder about the thinking around balancing of different difficulties; is Act I Veteran effectively picking up where Act 4 Recruit leaves off in terms of complexity, with more enemy damage/health and team damage? Or is there some other consideration? I've heard people say that Veteran is balanced around having better cards, but that can't be the whole story because "better cards" really have minimal impact in the first level or two of a run where you haven't built meaningful synergies yet and you're still largely running with white piece of shit guns.

    3DS FC: 2079-6424-8577 | PSN: KaeruX65 | Steam: Karulytic | FFXIV: Wonder Boy
    Preacher
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    In the old Left 4 Dead games, they had the AI director who would toss more enemies at you if you're doing well, but give you an easier time if you were struggling

    Moridin889
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    In the old Left 4 Dead games, they had the AI director who would toss more enemies at you if you're doing well, but give you an easier time if you were struggling

    What's interesting is I know after having repeated failed runs on the last act, the director literally took things away to make it easier. Like I kept making act 4 runs, and as I did, mutation cards went away.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • taliosfalcontaliosfalcon Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    The random card adds in this can be such bullshit; doing the level where you blow up the mine shafts on veteran; after many attempts we make it to loading the howitzer or whatever and get it 90% done; then it pops up that it’s surprise adding an ogre and reeker horde card both of which instantly spawn. Olol gg and rip us .

    I’ve never been so close to smashing a keyboard

    taliosfalcon on
    steam xbox - adeptpenguin
  • SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Grab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front door Registered User regular
    Gun DPS builds:
    confused-math-lady.jpg?auto=compress%2Cformat&ixlib=php-3.3.0

    Melee builds:
    f9f.png

    Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
  • taliosfalcontaliosfalcon Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    I'd be really interested to hear them talk about their approach to balancing, since (at least running through Recruit) it seems like difficulty escalates both over the course of a self-contained Act (as you're building up cards/weapons/mods to deal with it) and also between acts in terms of enemy composition, complexity, etc. I wonder how many of the "Recruit is too easy" people made it all the way through all of the acts, or even all of Act I before making that assessment.

    It also makes me wonder about the thinking around balancing of different difficulties; is Act I Veteran effectively picking up where Act 4 Recruit leaves off in terms of complexity, with more enemy damage/health and team damage? Or is there some other consideration? I've heard people say that Veteran is balanced around having better cards, but that can't be the whole story because "better cards" really have minimal impact in the first level or two of a run where you haven't built meaningful synergies yet and you're still largely running with white piece of shit guns.

    I did! I personally didn't find too much of a difficulty spike between acts; actually 2 was probably the hardest for me if anything. The latter levels may have had a bit more complexity but once you figure it out once you're good to go so it takes at most one death.

    Another thing that probably contributed to it though as i think is it had trouble matchmaking me in the latter acts and usually dropped me in with only one other person; and due to less specials spawning the game is drastically easier with two people than four.

    taliosfalcon on
    steam xbox - adeptpenguin
  • SanderJKSanderJK Crocodylus Pontifex Sinterklasicus Madrid, 3000 ADRegistered User regular
    Yeah 2 player is way easier currently, because the big variable of "how many specials spawn (close to each other)" gets turned down.

    Act 3 I only did once on recruit but it definitely ramped up at the end. The Mansion and the final mission need a lot of coordination.
    It is hard to gauge because of player quality and builds though. The variation is so

    Steam: SanderJK Origin: SanderJK
    Preacher
  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    We finished act 4 on recruit. That was a brutal fight and it is kind of a pain how it starts with weapons and such.

    Now we are trying to optimize decks for veteran. It is hard to figure out what cards to use and looking at recommended decks for specific characters doesn't really help.

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
    What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak

    I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
    Preacher
  • GrundlestiltskinGrundlestiltskin Behind you!Registered User regular
    The difficulty really does seem to be teammate driven. Just had a guy on 2-2 who I swear to god opened every alarmed door he could find. We did not win.

    3DS FC: 2079-6424-8577 | PSN: KaeruX65 | Steam: Karulytic | FFXIV: Wonder Boy
  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    Veteran is so brutal mostly because of trauma. The health stations on the wall no longer have free charges, cost 400 copper to use.

    It is gonna be so rough to get through veteran when there is only 3 of us so we either play with a random or a bot.

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
    What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak

    I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    Can someone explain the point of card affinities? Do they mean anything? If not, what's the point? Why is there an extra sorting/filtering mechanism that basically means nothing?

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • DixonDixon Screwed...possibly doomed CanadaRegistered User regular
    We got through Act 1 Veteran with a bot and it wasn't that bad. We did game over once on the outside Diner defense part but we figured out a strat and did it without anyone getting downed once the next time.

    You still get one free health station charge, but yeah after that it's 400. I was rolling doc though so we didn't have to much issue on the heals side.

  • Custom SpecialCustom Special I know I am, I'm sure I am, I'm Sounders 'til I die!Registered User regular
    We had four of us together doing Act 3 yesterday, that was a surprising jump in difficulty from everything prior (still all on Recruit)!
    I think we made it half way through the first section of the act, and used our continue in level 2 (we got double horde on the switchbacks right before the safe room...). But it's still fun having a full group, and I made a nice Doc deck so I can be the primary healer (and we needed it!).

    Is anyone else having connection issues in a party? Urquan kept getting just dumped out of the game probably once a level (luckily either at the very beginning or end). Really drags down the experience when we have to hassle with reconnecting, and sometimes he would lose his progress.

    XBL: F4ll0utBP | STEAM | PSN : CustomSpecial | Bnet: F4ll0ut#1636
  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    Oof. Some really bad Pub groups this morning. The first had someone who was melee and just running ahead not giving a shit about anyone else. Surprising nobody they got pinned and ended up costing the entire party. This previous one I got pinned and all 3 of them just stood there until I got incapacitated.

  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    Watching a nightmare playthrough to see what good players are doing and one person is running a melee build and the person making the video is playing Jim and doing a hip fire build so he has been taking cards that remove ADS and when he shoots he crouches.

    Does crouching cause a tighter shot?

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
    What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak

    I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
  • TalithTalith 変態という名の紳士 Miami, FLRegistered User regular
    Maybe he took the "down in front" card so he doesn't damage the melee player, since you don't deal or receive any friendly fire when crouching.

    7244qyoka3pp.gif
    ThegreatcowurahonkyMoridin889
  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    Talith wrote: »
    Maybe he took the "down in front" card so he doesn't damage the melee player, since you don't deal or receive any friendly fire when crouching.

    No, he started with the 50% reload and no ADS and then took the 50% weak spot damage boost with slower ADS.

    This is the video, it starts at the beginning of act 1.

    https://youtu.be/_bfwgHZndok

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
    What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak

    I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    Okay playing during the day is fucking awful. I've played 6 matches and we haven't successfully made it through any levels yet.

  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    And since you don't get any supply points they've been a complete waste of fucking time.

  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    Oof. Some really bad Pub groups this morning. The first had someone who was melee and just running ahead not giving a shit about anyone else. Surprising nobody they got pinned and ended up costing the entire party. This previous one I got pinned and all 3 of them just stood there until I got incapacitated.

    I put Break Out in every deck. It's too good having a get out of jail free card if something bad happens

    Preacherdrunkenpandaren
  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    So it looks like crouching doesn't do anything for accuracy when hip firing but a laser sight significantly helped my aim while hip firing with a M1A. I tried the same ranch rifle setup he got at the start of that video and I think the ranch rifle just has pretty solid accuracy so someone with good aim should be able to hip fire with it well as long as they aren't trying to shoot as fast as possible.

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
    What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak

    I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
  • drunkenpandarendrunkenpandaren Slapping all the goblin ham In the top laneRegistered User regular
    Stragint wrote: »
    So it looks like crouching doesn't do anything for accuracy when hip firing but a laser sight significantly helped my aim while hip firing with a M1A. I tried the same ranch rifle setup he got at the start of that video and I think the ranch rifle just has pretty solid accuracy so someone with good aim should be able to hip fire with it well as long as they aren't trying to shoot as fast as possible.

    Crouching helps with hip fire, though it's not super noticeable on rifles, you can see it shrink a bit on something like an Uzi. I also think it helps with resetting the cone, so if you're running rifles it'd help with that.

    Right now I'm trying to perfect my pyromaniac build. I want to light the whole world on fire. So far it's 5 molotovs and nothing but a ton of accessory damage.

    Origin: HaxtonWasHere
    Steam: pandas_gota_gun
  • taliosfalcontaliosfalcon Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Me: "alright team my health is low and me and this other player have no lives so i'm dropping 3 defibs here and if we go down use them to rez us"
    Me and other guy die two feet from defibs
    Remaining two players (including doc): *Kill the remaining zombies and then ignore us and run deeper into the level to get promptly murdered*

    ok then...

    taliosfalcon on
    steam xbox - adeptpenguin
    Local H JayurahonkyasofyeundrunkenpandarenPreacherThegreatcowMoridin889
  • AretèAretè infiltrating neo zeed compoundRegistered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Finished all the acts on recruit with randos and its definitely a coin flip with getting teams that will either vocally or using game pings communicate or just kinda rambo. There 2-3 finales towards the end of the game that randos struggled with, mostly because it isnt really clear at first that what you need to do is just rush the objective and only kill what's necessary to get to the next objective. Towards the end I was able to toss together a pretty sweet full melee build for angelo/holly and transform into a ridden lawnmowner it's amazing, with a fireaxe I was one and two hitting crushers/tallboys and chunking breakers.

    Aretè on
  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    Yeah I'm not sure what you guys are talking about when it comes to it being too easy. The last two levels in Act 2 have been absolutely MURDERING the party I was in. There were 9 corruption cards in the second to last level. And 6 on the finale. We all had mics and we all worked together but it was just too much.

    GrundlestiltskinAretè
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    God damn I did a quickplay of act 1 for some supply points this morning and what a struggle bus. One dude refused to like heal? People kept pointing out healing cabs and he just ran on past and let his life bar get smaller and smaller. I know its act 1, but fuck sake.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Ngl all the horror stories have convince me to never play pubs

  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    God damn I did a quickplay of act 1 for some supply points this morning and what a struggle bus. One dude refused to like heal? People kept pointing out healing cabs and he just ran on past and let his life bar get smaller and smaller. I know its act 1, but fuck sake.

    I've had that happen as well. The person must have had a 28 health point total because of all of the trauma. I don't get it

    If you want a quick and easy way to farm SP I'd recommend running the mission heralds of the worm part 1 in act 2. It can take any where from 2 to 5 minutes to complete and gives 24 to 44 SP per run.

    I usually just grab the grenade damage upgrade from the chest if it is there and no one else bought it and load up on grenades. Lots of people are running it right now.

    Just kill the ogre with the mini guns or grenades and then sprint to the safe room which is just around the corner.

    I use this card setup for it but I think really anything works. You only get to use 10 cards.
    Reckless Strategy
    Fleet of Foot
    Dash
    Cross Trainers
    Superior Cardio
    Energy Drink
    Olympic Sprinter
    Grenade Pouch
    Ridden Slayer
    Evasive Action

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
    What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak

    I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
  • KarlKarl Registered User regular
    Recruit is absolutely tough if you have team mates who cannot understand basic game prompts.

    This post brought to you by someone who just had a failed run because one team mate kept running into the birds, thus alerting a horde.

    Preacherurahonky
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Yeah its funny I ran with a group through act 3, and they had previously failed the run so they were like "ok well here's where it gets hard." But because it was 4 people who had built decks at least around some kind of purpose it didn't get impossible, it was tough at points, but again not being mouth breathers won the day.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • taliosfalcontaliosfalcon Registered User regular
    I just made it to act 3 with pub groups on veteran and I’m still much preferring pub groups on the harder difficulties to recruit surprisingly. Yeah 75% of my matches end in failure but I like that and miss it from older games; knowing we’re going to; or are even likely to succeed makes it boring for me. And thankfully with act 1 veteran (which was hell to get through) weeding out the people who have no idea what they’re doing the vast majority of my groups now 1. Know what they’re doing 2. Have decent decks and 3. Use their mics.

    It was a brutal road getting here but I’m loving the game now. Although I’m terrified to see what nightmare brings with how ridiculous the end of act 2 got. There was one mission I forget the number I must have tried 20 times before the ogre glitched on my success try and didn’t attack us as we murdered it

    steam xbox - adeptpenguin
    Preacher
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I can imagine veteran would probably have a better class of players by virtue of it being the higher difficulty.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I haven't bought the game yet, but is there a place where we congregate to join up? Is Armadeaddon back online? Or discord?

  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I haven't bought the game yet, but is there a place where we congregate to join up? Is Armadeaddon back online? Or discord?

    No, not that I've seen. I've asked in both the steam thread and this thread for groups but got no response.

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
    What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak

    I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    https://discord.gg/GZvU55FJ

    I just made this server. Please join it and we can start adding people and playing together!

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    You can also request they add a channel to the PA discord for it, more people in the community will see it there

  • ZomroZomro Registered User regular
    Played Karlee for a run last night. Her spidey sense is pretty good. In the open, it's not super great since it's a short range, but when you're in tight quarters with lots of walls or have multiple vertical levels is very nice since you can see hazards through the walls. There was one point where we were looting a supply cache room when a Hag spawned, and I turned to look at my brother and I could see the Hag's outline behind him through the wall. Wish I had taken a screenshot, since it was pretty scary. It also worked really well in the hedge maze section in Act 3, just pinpointing Sleepers* and specials like crazy

    *I call Sleepers buttholes, because the things they hop out of kinda look like buttholes.

    Preacherurahonkydrunkenpandaren
  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    I think I like Hoffman the most so far.

  • SanderJKSanderJK Crocodylus Pontifex Sinterklasicus Madrid, 3000 ADRegistered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    I think I like Hoffman the most so far.

    I play him, extra ammo is nice.

    I did a run on recruit last night as a "Midas" adding so much gold that you can buy whatever you want, where you want. Ended up with an extra 6k at the end, and I still miss 1 money card. Wonder if that's worthwhile on Veteran.... if one person is the Special Killer (Weakspot sniper), the Melee is the swarm control, doc to get healing...... wonder if the dps sac pays off. Having 4 purple pipebombs (That gather nonelites for 12s.... ) each sure makes the Snitch finale a nonevent.

    Steam: SanderJK Origin: SanderJK
  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    Hoffman is great - but I just want to turn off all his banter

    PSN SeGaTai
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