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What If..[Marvel TV] Darcy steals every scene in the MCU? OPEN SPOILERS

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  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    There's also a book on changing an Absolute Point so at least someone has done it before without turning the world to goop.

    Funny thing about time travel. You don't need to have done something yet in order to write a book about it.

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  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    So, he ate David the Gnome, then mugged Kyouhukou... I will say, an Overlord reference wasn't even on the list of things I expected from this show.

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited September 1
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    I’m liking that they are willing to swing hard and go dark with these endings. Although this may be the darkest ending yet. Geez.

    I vividly remember a FF4 mega-issue What If where one of the stories it contained was what if Susan Richards second child had survived to being born, and it turned out the "child" was actually an energy-draining shape-shifting parasite from the Negative Zone. The "child" drained Susan to death at birth, then Johnny, then drained Ben down so far he turned to normal human and was murdered in a revenge drive-by shooting. Reed was being slowly drained and basically went insane.

    And this is all from the POV of their son Franklin Richards, who is something like 8-10 years old and knows it's his "sister" killing everybody. Eventually, his father attacks him for trying to prove the sister is killing everyone. Franklin then goes to Dr. Doom for help, who immediately believes Franklin's overwhelming amount of evidence. They arrive to confront the child just as she's drained Reed to death, Doom fights her, and she drains Doom to death just as Franklin sets up a way to trap her back in the Negative Zone.

    The final scene is Franklin alone in the wreckage of his family home with the bodies of Doom and Reed at his feet, now totally alone in the world.

    So yeah, the What If franchise isn't willing to just go dark, it will gladly go advanced dark.

    Oh, and to cheer things up, the counterpoint story was that the daughter is a mutant who can heal people, so she becomes the leader of worldwide social movement involving helping people and heals millions along the way.

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  • ChallChall Registered User regular
    Hey at one point ~Evil~ Strange absorbed a Deep Crow

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  • ManetherenWolfManetherenWolf Registered User regular
    It was an interesting episode, I'm not sure it was internally consistent though. Why did one Strange become obsessed and have to fix it despite being told by the Ancient One, and the other was fine with letting Christine remain dead after being told by the Ancient One.

    The difference was that the Ancient one split him into the 2 possibilities when she confronted the Evil Strange. I took it as that was the part of him that still could see there was no reason to live in the past and could stop the other half (well potentially… we saw how that worked out)

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    There's actually two schism points in this episode, for a change. The first was the premise - What if Dr. Palmer hadn't dumped Strange and thus the loss of her life is what drove Strange to magic rather than damaging his hands. While the second was Strange deciding whether or not to go into the past and try and save her life.

    In the timeline we observe, he decides to do it, but the Ancient One split the timeline during their confrontation so that both versions existed.

    So this was basically What If? Squared + 1.

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  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    Chall wrote: »
    Hey at one point ~Evil~ Strange absorbed a Deep Crow

    I originally thought that was a coincidence, but honestly with all the other random shit he absorbed that seemed to be a reference, I kinda think it was intentional.

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  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    Mvrck wrote: »
    Chall wrote: »
    Hey at one point ~Evil~ Strange absorbed a Deep Crow

    I originally thought that was a coincidence, but honestly with all the other random shit he absorbed that seemed to be a reference, I kinda think it was intentional.

    The cockroach in the cape was the point I became convinced that some ultra-nerd at the studio was having a blast slipping obscure references past their boss.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Wa-how. Not only did Strange lose, they REALLY rubbed his nose in the fact that he fucked up.

    After the first two episodes, I was wondering if they'd really go as far as the comic did, or if they'd stick to crowd-pleasing. Episode three was a little reassuring, but the horror was leavened by loads and loads of laugh lines. Not here. Just dark dark dark. Yep, this is officially a worthy successor to the comic. Anything can happen, even the unthinkable. I love it.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Registered User, ClubPA regular
    It bothers me more than it should that they keep going adjacent to Shula-Gorath and the many angled ones without actually referencing them. Or naming them.

    Head canon here is that this is another reality Shuma-Gorath ate through strange.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    The only similarity is other dimensional beings with tentacles. Tentacles aren't even rare on Earth, so they're probably all over the place in other dimensions.

    Shuma-Gorath is such a huge threat that if they were to be involved, the entire plot would have to revolve around them.

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Registered User, ClubPA regular
    The only similarity is other dimensional beings with tentacles. Tentacles aren't even rare on Earth, so they're probably all over the place in other dimensions.

    Shuma-Gorath is such a huge threat that if they were to be involved, the entire plot would have to revolve around them.

    Tentacles and being mystic arts adjacent where people make deals for power.

    The Strange story is exactly the sort of thing that Shuma-Gorath and the many angled ones would normally be in. Strange fucking up the walls of reality to the point they are able to break through and corrupt/consume

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  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    edited September 1
    I loved that one. Really loved the fact that Strange could actually sense/see the Watcher.

    Though I really gotta call bullshit on her death leading to him finding out how to do magic. Strange was a science guy - when it was just his hands busted, sure, maybe there's some way to fix those (he even said he could have done it, so maybe there's someone else out there that could fix them too... that makes sense). I'm pretty sure science would tell him there isn't a "cure" for death. Let alone he only found out about the Ancient One because he heard that rumor about the guy being able to walk after going there - something that doesn't belong in the same context as "I need to resurrect a person." (edit: Devil's advocate to my own argument... I *guess* maybe he could have heard about how long she had lived and thought there was something there? But that's really reaching)

    Also is it me or is this like the third time MCU has basically re-written their time travel rules? I feel like End Game, Loki, and this have totally different rules to these things. How was her death a fixed event but Thanos snapping half the universe wasn't? (Unless they're saying the TVA came in every time she didn't die and erased that universe) Let alone, it's a fixed event but there's already an instance where it doesn't happen in the original movie so what... are fixed events specific to certain multiverses?... It's a bit confusing :P

    But whatever, awesome episode. Kind of glad it didn't have a happy ending - I like that they were willing to go there.

    Now to wait for the easter eggs video that says who exactly all those monsters were, since I'm sure every one was some random obscure Marvel character...

    Edit: Oh also, I guess we are glossing over the fact that Christine had to save his life at one point in the original movie :P I guess things just happened "different" in this universe... for convenience sake :3

    (oh, and I know I'm being picky but I really did enjoy the episode, even if I found some of the plot contrivances a bit too convenient :P But then Dr. Strange is also one of my absolute favorites so I think I was gonna love this one regardless :D)

    Edit 2: Regarding Shuma-Gorath - so we don't know if this is Shuma-Gorath or not, and I will admit to not knowing jack shit about that character, but a hypothesis. In both the first episode and this one, the only thing that we really see happen are a bunch of tentacles get chopped off. Is it possible this *is* Shuma-Gorath but no one has actually killed it yet, they've just cut off some tentacles that I am assuming it can grow back. What if shit like what happened here, plus other stuff, lead to a huge Shuma-Gorath threat in, let's say the season finale and that's why the Watcher has to gather all these characters (which the trailers made it pretty clear is gonna happen). Or add this stuff, Wandavision, Loki, the shit Strange is about to fuck up in the next Spider-man... maybe Shuma-Gorath is being setup for Multiverse of Madness and this show is just teasing him a little?

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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    The whole "fixed death" started to get kind of silly near the end. One scenario had them reach the party safely and... she clutches her chest and dies from virtually nothing. There's fixed points, and then there's the universe just wanting you to fucking die.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    The Loki rules were propaganda created by He Who Remains, so I wouldn't put too much stock in them, given he's gone now and the multiverse is a thing now.

    Palmer dying is a fixed event because without that happening, Strange never becomes a sorceror and thus is never in a position to go back in time. It's a paradox.
    Reminder that Strange is directly manipulating the spacetime continuum with the Time Stone rather than skipping over to a variant universe through the Quantum Realm like in Endgame.

    Also the Avengers didn't undo the event of Thanos snapping; they just did a second snap that restored everyone back to life. The historical moment of Thanos killing half of the universe five years prior still happened.

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  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    The whole "fixed death" started to get kind of silly near the end. One scenario had them reach the party safely and... she clutches her chest and dies from virtually nothing. There's fixed points, and then there's the universe just wanting you to fucking die.

    Haha yeah, I forgot about that one. It was pretty goofy. I guess maybe she could have choked on some food at the party or something?

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  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    edited September 1
    The Loki rules were propaganda created by He Who Remains, so I wouldn't put too much stock in them, given he's gone now and the multiverse is a thing now.

    Palmer dying is a fixed event because without that happening, Strange never becomes a sorceror and thus is never in a position to go back in time. It's a paradox.
    Reminder that Strange is directly manipulating the spacetime continuum with the Time Stone rather than skipping over to a variant universe through the Quantum Realm like in Endgame.

    Also the Avengers didn't undo the event of Thanos snapping; they just did a second snap that restored everyone back to life. The historical moment of Thanos killing half of the universe five years prior still happened.

    Yeah but, in the original movie she didn't die and he still became the Sorcerer Supreme... So it's not actually a paradox if he just busts his hands :P Though I suppose he doesn't know that. But the universe should :P (edit: Although I *suppose* if she is still alive, even with hands broken he probably wouldn't have time traveled to save her.. though I dunno how time travel wouldn't result in alternate universes when different stuff is happening because of it)

    Also with regards to Thanos, I'm talking about What If episode 2 :P

    P.S. - Saw this tweet randomly, made me laugh:

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Strange becomes a Sorcerer because he suffered a great tragedy that science cannot fix, so he seeks answers in mysticism. In the main universe, it's the loss of functionality in his hands; in What If 4 (WI4) it's Christine's death. Had MCU Strange used the stone to try and go back to save his hands he'd probably have caused a similar situation.

    There's no time travel involved in WI2, so there's no fixed point to break; that's just a universe where Thanos didn't snap anyone. It'd only be a problem if Thanos HAD snapped and someone used the time stone to go back and stop him from doing so.

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  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    I think we touched on the difference in Marvels time shenanigans when End Game first came out. Jumping into the quantum realm and one point in time, and hopping out at an other is different from using magical powers not to travel through time, but literally rewind time to where you want. Either by rewinding time around you like how Strange undid all that damage at the end of the first Dr. Strange movie, or rewind time around a person or object like he did to that apple in the first movie and how Thanos rewound Vision to get the mind stone.

  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    That was dark AF. Destroying an entire universe through a combination of loss, hubris, and taking a paradox to its logical extreme is the kinda shit I love and this is my favorite one so far.

    Give me more and inject that deep crow, c’thulu shit right into my veins!

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  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Saw a possible spoiler for an upcoming episode in the Lego aisle today
    Iron Man 's Sakaarian mech suit

    Dunno if we'd heard about that prior

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  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    Saw a possible spoiler for an upcoming episode in the Lego aisle today
    Iron Man 's Sakaarian mech suit

    Dunno if we'd heard about that prior

    I feel like I definitely heard about this one somewhere but I don't know that it has been widely talked about.

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    I’m looking forward to the Gamora being Thanos episode. I’m hoping that’s even darker in the conclusion.

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  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    The only similarity is other dimensional beings with tentacles. Tentacles aren't even rare on Earth, so they're probably all over the place in other dimensions.

    Shuma-Gorath is such a huge threat that if they were to be involved, the entire plot would have to revolve around them.

    Definitely saving that for his third movie. Although I wouldn’t mind a bit of a foreshadowing nod to him in the second one.

  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    So far my order of favorites is Captain Carter followed by TChala, then Dr. Strange, then Hank.

    Not that any of them are bad. I liked the Idea that Hank Pim can kill the hulk. But Captain Carter is just so good.

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  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    IDK, Strange doing his Kirby thing was fun but overall it kinda lost me at the end. I mean, I totally saw the actual ending coming. They should have Rick and Morty'd that shit with Strange taking a now living Christine to an adjacent reality where she and that reality's Strange both died and living out his days knowing he sacrificed an entire reality for Christine.

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  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    IDK, Strange doing his Kirby thing was fun but overall it kinda lost me at the end. I mean, I totally saw the actual ending coming. They should have Rick and Morty'd that shit with Strange taking a now living Christine to an adjacent reality where she and that reality's Strange both died and living out his days knowing he sacrificed an entire reality for Christine.

    And now my brain is trying to score that entire montage to Gourmet Race.

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Also strange using time magic to bring someone back to life is the wrong approach.

    Marvel characters come back to life like it’s going out of style. So do a work around.

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I like that there's actual danger in Strange going off and doing whatever he wants. He's warned against meddling with time a lot in Dr Strange, but because he did he's able to take on Dormamu. It's nice to see the other side to that coin. Our Strange is arrogant but was humbled not once, but twice. He lost his hands, then the Ancient One sends him on a literal ego trip to shatter his perception of himself and his place in the universe.

    I do like that they clarify that Ancient One did the splitting, and that usually there's only one timeline per universe.

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  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular

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  • EmperorSethEmperorSeth Registered User regular
    Mvrck wrote: »
    Chall wrote: »
    Hey at one point ~Evil~ Strange absorbed a Deep Crow

    I originally thought that was a coincidence, but honestly with all the other random shit he absorbed that seemed to be a reference, I kinda think it was intentional.

    I just assumed it was a Yatagarasu, but neat if true.

    As for the episode, obviously you don't fight against a Fixed Point in Time, you trick it! Have these people never Chrono Trigger?

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    I will say, I'm not keen on where the MCU seems to be taking Wong (TV and Upcoming Film spoilers)
    He seemingly exists to tell Dr. Strange something is a bad idea, and then fuck off so Strange can go do the bad idea.

    Thankfully, if Shang-Chi seems to be any indication, Wong is going to get to do some of his own bad ideas.

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Mvrck wrote: »
    Chall wrote: »
    Hey at one point ~Evil~ Strange absorbed a Deep Crow

    I originally thought that was a coincidence, but honestly with all the other random shit he absorbed that seemed to be a reference, I kinda think it was intentional.

    It turns out one of my friends worked on this episode and I know she is a fan of Penny-Arcade. So I'm very tempted to ask directly and find out for sure!

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  • EmperorSethEmperorSeth Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Mvrck wrote: »
    Chall wrote: »
    Hey at one point ~Evil~ Strange absorbed a Deep Crow

    I originally thought that was a coincidence, but honestly with all the other random shit he absorbed that seemed to be a reference, I kinda think it was intentional.

    It turns out one of my friends worked on this episode and I know she is a fan of Penny-Arcade. So I'm very tempted to ask directly and find out for sure!

    Do It.

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Mvrck wrote: »
    Chall wrote: »
    Hey at one point ~Evil~ Strange absorbed a Deep Crow

    I originally thought that was a coincidence, but honestly with all the other random shit he absorbed that seemed to be a reference, I kinda think it was intentional.

    It turns out one of my friends worked on this episode and I know she is a fan of Penny-Arcade. So I'm very tempted to ask directly and find out for sure!

    Do It.

    I already have. If I get a response, I will let everyone know.

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Mvrck wrote: »
    Chall wrote: »
    Hey at one point ~Evil~ Strange absorbed a Deep Crow

    I originally thought that was a coincidence, but honestly with all the other random shit he absorbed that seemed to be a reference, I kinda think it was intentional.

    It turns out one of my friends worked on this episode and I know she is a fan of Penny-Arcade. So I'm very tempted to ask directly and find out for sure!

    Do It.

    I already have. If I get a response, I will let everyone know.

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    I will say, I'm not keen on where the MCU seems to be taking Wong (TV and Upcoming Film spoilers)
    He seemingly exists to tell Dr. Strange something is a bad idea, and then fuck off so Strange can go do the bad idea.

    Thankfully, if Shang-Chi seems to be any indication, Wong is going to get to do some of his own bad ideas.

    Yeah but…
    (Shang-Chi and Wong trailer)
    Wong is fighting Abomination in the trailer, meaning he’s still cleaning up other people’s problems. Wong deserves to have the opportunity to make his own world ending trouble!

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    The Loki rules were propaganda created by He Who Remains, so I wouldn't put too much stock in them, given he's gone now and the multiverse is a thing now.

    Palmer dying is a fixed event because without that happening, Strange never becomes a sorceror and thus is never in a position to go back in time. It's a paradox.
    Reminder that Strange is directly manipulating the spacetime continuum with the Time Stone rather than skipping over to a variant universe through the Quantum Realm like in Endgame.

    Also the Avengers didn't undo the event of Thanos snapping; they just did a second snap that restored everyone back to life. The historical moment of Thanos killing half of the universe five years prior still happened.

    I immediately took it as her death being a fixed point for Strange. To quote a time testicle from Rick and Morty: how do you expect to fix time while you're standing in it? He's not simply making a new timeline, he's dialing back the whole universe and trying to force that one event to not happen when that one event is what forces him to develop the ability to change it. Trying to avoid the event and have the power to avoid the event is dividing reality by zero, so the universe just shrugs and gives up existing.

    Anyway. FUCKING. DARK. Yeah, that's some proper classic What If there, with the failed Strange left in the crystallized scrap of his reality and wandering the void for a timeless eternity. Though it would've been pretty hilarious if they got to the end and revealed the whole thing was a tape Wong put together for Strange, going with the title "STEPHEN: DON'T. FUCK. WITH. TIME." And the end shot is Strange finishing the tape with a semi-horrified look, then glancing over and seeing Wong staring back with a very clear "DO YOU GET THE MESSAGE?" look.

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    I will say, I'm not keen on where the MCU seems to be taking Wong (TV and Upcoming Film spoilers)
    He seemingly exists to tell Dr. Strange something is a bad idea, and then fuck off so Strange can go do the bad idea.

    Thankfully, if Shang-Chi seems to be any indication, Wong is going to get to do some of his own bad ideas.

    Yeah but…
    (Shang-Chi and Wong trailer)
    Wong is fighting Abomination in the trailer, meaning he’s still cleaning up other people’s problems. Wong deserves to have the opportunity to make his own world ending trouble!
    Maybe Wong enjoys pit fighting on his vacations. You don’t know Wong.

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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    Jesus christ that episode was a bummer.

    Good!

    But I just felt down afterward.

    I suspect there were a ton of easter eggs throughout, I just couldn't focus on them because the whole time it was just "damn, this fucking blows; stop, dude..."

    Does anyone know if they've got soundtracks for the Disney+ shows, and/or this one? The music in Loki was spectacular, and the music in this episode too was just great.

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