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Australian & NZ Politics: NZ Local Elections: Coming Soon!

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Posts

  • exisexis Registered User regular
    First confirmation of vaccine passports in NZ: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/452941/watch-pm-jacinda-ardern-gives-briefing-on-covid-19-vaccine-certificate

    I'm pretty curious as to how this will be enforced exactly, given that the police seem reluctant to take decisive legal action against very clear breaches of lockdown. Now we're moving towards a state where "some" events will require vaccines to attend, are police going to be involved? Also feels like it conflicts with employers having no real legal standing at the moment to require their own employees to be vaccinated, or even any right to ask for vaccination status, due to conflicting overlapping legislation from Employment Relations Act, Privacy Act, Covid-19 Public Health Response Act etc. So for organisations involved in these events which require a vaccine passport... how are they going to require vaccinations for their own employees?

    I guess it's one step at a time, but yeesh. Does feel like it would have been nice to figure a lot of this out before delta was on the shores.

  • plufimplufim Registered User regular
    It honestly feels like the only places equipped for this are nightclubs and pubs, where there's already a bouncer.
    16 year old Brian in the Foodbarn is not paid enough in his 3 hour shifts for Sharon to scream at him about her rights under the United Nations or whatever.

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    McFodderexisKayne Red RobeMr Ray
  • -Loki--Loki- Registered User regular
    plufim wrote: »
    It honestly feels like the only places equipped for this are nightclubs and pubs, where there's already a bouncer.
    16 year old Brian in the Foodbarn is not paid enough in his 3 hour shifts for Sharon to scream at him about her rights under the United Nations or whatever.

    I had this argument with my brother a while ago who said it'll all work because unvaccinated people will be kept out of places. I pointed out that pubs and clubs have bouncers already, so they should be fine. Events like sport and music have security at the gate and patrolling, so the extra check isn't a problem. Maybe shopping centers like Westfields if they want to put on more security at the doors, but we know they won't.

    The kid they put out the front of a Woolworths? They're specially told by management not to prevent people entering for their own safety, when really it's because it's a liability to the company if they get hurt. All the little coffee shops, independently run shops that are usually staffed by the sole owner? No way.

    Like, the first place the missus and I want to go when this is all over is down to the southern highlands, but where we want to go is all little local independant stores. Good for the economy spending a bunch of money at places like that, but they will in no way be checking you're vaccinated because a. they don't have the resources and b. they've been in lockdown too and want people, anyone, spending money there. So we won't be heading down any time soon.

    plufim
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    In NZ most supers have actual guards now. But its besides the point as they are (currently) only planning on having it for large scale events and the like, not supermarkets.
    It will not be used for places like supermarkets or essential health services.
    If the little coffee shop chooses to have vaccine certificates mandatory then hopefully they'd also have a real plan to back that up.

  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    Sounds like the New Zealand government took as the Australian government to reply to Pfizer.

  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Registered User regular
    Huh? I've been out of touch all day today, can you explain that?

    MorganV
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    Pfizer contacted the NZ and Aus govs in June, neither gov met with Pfizer until August.

  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    It's strange but not overly surprising that after all the carry-on about the national plan NSW is abandoning it without any political or media comment or attention.

    It's only a single page a4 plan but even then we aren't bothering to keep to it. Specifically the part where:
    Phases triggered in a jurisdiction when the average vaccination rates across the nation have reached the threshold and that rate is achieved in a jurisdiction expressed as a percentage of the eligible population (16+), based on the scientific modelling conducted for the COVID-19 Risk Analysis and Response Task Force
    We're just all collectively ignoring that part of the plan. It's not shocking or surprising, but it's odd to me that literally no-one brings this up at any point.

  • -Loki--Loki- Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Also, it seems Perrottet isn't happy with the speed Gladys was opening up, because he's ramping up even faster.

    Triggering the AMA to warn we will be back in lockdown by Christmas if he goes ahead with his plan.

    Stay safe, peoples.

    Edit - interesting development. Perrottet said at the press conference his changes were approved by Kerry Chant. She just revealed she did not, in fact, approve them.

    Straight up lying on camera to the state.

    -Loki- on
    MorganVKayne Red Robe
  • plufimplufim Registered User regular
    He's a post-truth Tory.

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    -Loki- wrote: »
    Also, it seems Perrottet isn't happy with the speed Gladys was opening up, because he's ramping up even faster.

    Triggering the AMA to warn we will be back in lockdown by Christmas if he goes ahead with his plan.

    Stay safe, peoples.

    Edit - interesting development. Perrottet said at the press conference his changes were approved by Kerry Chant. She just revealed she did not, in fact, approve them.

    Straight up lying on camera to the state.


    "BREAKING: I have confirmed Dr Chant did not endorse this new roadmap. The Chief Health Officer warned the new Premier these changes come with risk, but the decision was ultimately a matter for the government. A shift from Perrottet away from “the health advice.” "
    - Chris OKeefe is a political reporter for Ch9 News.

    Yeah, this has the potential to go pretty badly. Hopefully NSW are vaccinated enough that opening early is somewhat mitigated, but that might mean bullrushing through quite a few needless deaths to get there.

    On questioning why she wasn't at the conference...
    But O’Keefe kept pressing and said “if it’s a health crisis the chief health officer should be here.”

    “Well, it’s also an economic crisis as well,” Mr Perrottet snapped.

    I revise my previous statement. This is most likely going to go badly. Because it's clear what Perrottet's priorities are, in black and fucking white.

    MorganV on
    Mr RaydiscriderLord_Asmodeus
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    He literally renamed the NSW Crisis Cabinet to the "Economic Recovery Committee."

  • KelorKelor Registered User regular
    While Sydney might have higher vaccination rates, regional areas like Newcastle are only at 40%.

    I'm sure this won't be a trainwreck at all.

    MorganV
  • -Loki--Loki- Registered User regular
    Kelor wrote: »
    While Sydney might have higher vaccination rates, regional areas like Newcastle are only at 40%.

    I'm sure this won't be a trainwreck at all.

    Even if it is, we don’t be back in lockdown. Perrottet will sacrifice everyone needed on the alter of Mammon to help the economy.

    If it goes bad, we will see triage tents in hospital car parks with people dying in them before another lockdown is even considered.

    MorganVLord_Asmodeus
  • -Loki--Loki- Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Turns out the NSW vaccine passport won't even be ready for tomorrow. They are on track for October 18th, which was the original opening date.

    Fantastic. So the first week of the soft opening where they are restricting non-vaccinated people, they don't even have a way to check your vaccine status.

    -Loki- on
  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    You can download a certificate from medicare to your phone. Its a pdf so you can print it off as well.

    I straight up cant even use the nsw service app it tells me my android is too old. But I have a copy of my vax pdf on my phone and I can just open it and viola. So thats what Ill be doing.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
  • -Loki--Loki- Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    You can download a certificate from medicare to your phone. Its a pdf so you can print it off as well.

    I straight up cant even use the nsw service app it tells me my android is too old. But I have a copy of my vax pdf on my phone and I can just open it and viola. So thats what Ill be doing.

    The Medicare app screen that shows your vaccine also shows a lot of other things and not just your normal childhood vaccinations. I’m sure people aren’t going to want to show that to complete strangers.

    Not everyone can print out the PDF - I can’t, I don’t even have a working printer. And fumbling around zooming on your phone on the PDF is a great way to make queues into busy places like pubs nightmarish - your screen isn’t going to be large enough to read, so whoever is checking will need it zoomed to whatever they need to take it as authentic, then your name to photo id in your wallet because who says someone didn’t email you a fake PDF?

    This is a typical government IT cockup. No need to make excuses for them.

    -Loki- on
  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    I'm not making excuses.

    I'm saying it is possible, for those that need it. It's a fact that this is a real thing, a thing you can do. Do with that information what you will.

    The medicare certificate I'm talking about does not show past immunisation activity. (I don't have the medicare app installed, so if you are thinking of an app, stop, wrong idea.) It only shows pfizer. It doesn't show anything but your name and some meaningless very long numbers, and the dates of your pfizer jabs. That's it. It's a special thing you can download from the website. It shows nothing else.

    I mean their cockup is that I can't even install the fucking app in the first place, why on earth would I be trying to defend them. I think they're fucking idiots, no worries there. After all you could always just say "I can't install the app" and leave a false name and number.

    Correcting misinformation is not a defense. It is true that this is a thing that can be done in the interim. Yes it will be awkward and awful and stupid and make queues take forever. You are still going to have to do it, if you want to go anywhere.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
  • -Loki--Loki- Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    My vaccination PDF from the medicare app definitely shows other past vaccinations, I'm looking at it now.

    edit - I see what's different. I'm looking a the immunization history PDF, not the COVID digital certificate, which hasn't activated yet since my second dose was just today.

    -Loki- on
  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    Yes I'm talking about the covid digital certificate.

    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
    MorganV
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Really, the feds need to get a secure system that just gives you a QR code that the venue then checks with their half of the app.
    Change the QR code and destination for each person's vaccine cert every so often, return identifying details like name or face based on the user's security settings, and away you go.

    I just don't see how anything that resides totally in a customer's phone can not be forged given two seconds work.
    Looking at the NSW one, it looks like it scans the business name into the cert from the QR code but that's just moving the target from static .jpg to personalised .jpg or free text field.

    Or just assume it's going to be forged by the people you want to keep out, and wait a bit longer until that is an acceptable risk in your Covid reopening plan

    discrider on
  • ArchangleArchangle Registered User regular
    I'm very pessimistic about the vaccine passports.

    With no infrastructure behind it, the majority of small businesses will make a token effort before effectively dropping it within a week or two after a combination of (a) people insisting they have been vaccinated without offering any proof, (b) one or two antivaxxers going off on a rant.

    By the time any infrastructure/working app gets rolled out, the behaviour will be difficult to change - businesses will put up the mandated signs but will rarely check, and most customers will be surprised when actually checked ("Why are you checking me? Why didn't you check them?")

    I'll be very surprised if they last until January.

    discriderKayne Red Robeexis
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Yeah, I think it's ridiculous to expect small business will be able to comply with passports, even with good infrastructure, unless:
    - They already have dedicated security (nightclubs mostly).
    - They are already event and ticket driven, and can roll Covid compliance into the ticketing process.

    The most I'd expect of small business is to run at a reduced capacity or in a more Covid-safe manner by moving business outside.

    Notably, the retail workers union was on ABC news radio this morning saying that incidents against their workers had increased by 25 to 75% due to Covid, so I'm sure further passport checking would go down smoothly.

    Solventexis
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    Yeah, I think it's ridiculous to expect small business will be able to comply with passports, even with good infrastructure, unless:
    - They already have dedicated security (nightclubs mostly).
    - They are already event and ticket driven, and can roll Covid compliance into the ticketing process.

    The most I'd expect of small business is to run at a reduced capacity or in a more Covid-safe manner by moving business outside.

    Notably, the retail workers union was on ABC news radio this morning saying that incidents against their workers had increased by 25 to 75% due to Covid, so I'm sure further passport checking would go down smoothly.

    But at least it looks like the open up in Sydney has been measured and reasonable.

    Nah, just kidding. Way too many people crowded into way too small an area. If there's not a massive spike as a result, I'm going to be legit surprised.

  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    Yeah, I think it's ridiculous to expect small business will be able to comply with passports, even with good infrastructure, unless:
    - They already have dedicated security (nightclubs mostly).
    - They are already event and ticket driven, and can roll Covid compliance into the ticketing process.

    The most I'd expect of small business is to run at a reduced capacity or in a more Covid-safe manner by moving business outside.

    Notably, the retail workers union was on ABC news radio this morning saying that incidents against their workers had increased by 25 to 75% due to Covid, so I'm sure further passport checking would go down smoothly.

    Or, and this is a solution that I've seen happen, private security becomes a very booming business. On retail chains here there's no discussions, you don't get past security guards without a mask, tempetarure check and grabbing some alcohol gel. Health inspectors put the onus on business to enforce COVID restrictions, if they don't like it, they can stay closed for a while and pay fines.

    This doesn't account for the likes of DeSantis, but we are talking about problems that have proven solutions.

  • ArchangleArchangle Registered User regular
    I think even at larger venues with dedicated security, enforcement is going to be so casual as to be ineffective.

    Friends in the UK have reported going to events which were allegedly proof of vaccination checked, and they found in practice the staff were so keen to keep the queues moving that all you had to do was wave your phone in the direction of staff - my friends hadn't even managed to get their NHS proof of vaccination on screen before they were cleared. I think the quote was "as long as you didn't cough in the security person's face, you were allowed through".

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    This is why I like the QR vaccination code + QR code reader two part system, because I've seen that work well already at events with QR tickets.
    Just beep beep beep beep down the line

    And then at least a lazy check will confirm that the customer has at least someone's Covid vaccination cert (until it rotates and needs to be reissued as a new QR code).

    discrider on
    TryCatcher
  • -Loki--Loki- Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    Yeah, I think it's ridiculous to expect small business will be able to comply with passports, even with good infrastructure, unless:
    - They already have dedicated security (nightclubs mostly).
    - They are already event and ticket driven, and can roll Covid compliance into the ticketing process.

    The most I'd expect of small business is to run at a reduced capacity or in a more Covid-safe manner by moving business outside.

    Notably, the retail workers union was on ABC news radio this morning saying that incidents against their workers had increased by 25 to 75% due to Covid, so I'm sure further passport checking would go down smoothly.

    Or, and this is a solution that I've seen happen, private security becomes a very booming business. On retail chains here there's no discussions, you don't get past security guards without a mask, tempetarure check and grabbing some alcohol gel. Health inspectors put the onus on business to enforce COVID restrictions, if they don't like it, they can stay closed for a while and pay fines.

    This doesn't account for the likes of DeSantis, but we are talking about problems that have proven solutions.

    There is no way small businesses will be able to afford this. Hiring an extra staff member who contributes to the running of the store is a hard sell for lots of small businesses. Hiring someone to stand outside and prevent paying customers entering? Unless the government puts in place harsh fines for not restricting unvaccinated people (they won't) and it actually gets enforced (it won't), small businesses are not hiring a security guard to prevent entry.

    MorganV
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    -Loki- wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    Yeah, I think it's ridiculous to expect small business will be able to comply with passports, even with good infrastructure, unless:
    - They already have dedicated security (nightclubs mostly).
    - They are already event and ticket driven, and can roll Covid compliance into the ticketing process.

    The most I'd expect of small business is to run at a reduced capacity or in a more Covid-safe manner by moving business outside.

    Notably, the retail workers union was on ABC news radio this morning saying that incidents against their workers had increased by 25 to 75% due to Covid, so I'm sure further passport checking would go down smoothly.

    Or, and this is a solution that I've seen happen, private security becomes a very booming business. On retail chains here there's no discussions, you don't get past security guards without a mask, tempetarure check and grabbing some alcohol gel. Health inspectors put the onus on business to enforce COVID restrictions, if they don't like it, they can stay closed for a while and pay fines.

    This doesn't account for the likes of DeSantis, but we are talking about problems that have proven solutions.

    There is no way small businesses will be able to afford this. Hiring an extra staff member who contributes to the running of the store is a hard sell for lots of small businesses. Hiring someone to stand outside and prevent paying customers entering? Unless the government puts in place harsh fines for not restricting unvaccinated people (they won't) and it actually gets enforced (it won't), small businesses are not hiring a security guard to prevent entry.

    Also should be noted that while security don't get paid a whole lot (I know, it's my job), the markup on security to pay for the "infrastructure" is around $40 per hour, more at penalty rate times.

    That infrastructure makes sure that there's someone showing up, and that liability is deferred. I get injured on the job, it's my company, not the client, that pays me.

    A business can try and do it themselves, either by hiring independents, or using existing staff, but you're gambling at that point. Anything bad happens, shit could get expensive.

  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Registered User regular
    We need to go back to level 4.

    But I don't think that's going to happen and even knowing that we should, I'm not sure that I can.

    My life hasn't really changed all that much between level 3 and 4, but the mental toll from going back into 4 will be drastic I think.

    And I know I'm not alone with that feeling.

  • -Loki--Loki- Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    A business can try and do it themselves, either by hiring independents, or using existing staff, but you're gambling at that point. Anything bad happens, shit could get expensive.

    I have a friend that works at Woolworths, and they were specifically told by head office while working the front to make sure people scan the QR code to not try to prevent any entry. They say it's for the workers safety. We all know it's because they're not hired as security, and if the 16 year old at the door tells an irate idiot they can't enter and gets punched in the face, Woolworths is heading to court.

    MorganV
  • AntoshkaAntoshka Registered User regular
    We need to go back to level 4.

    But I don't think that's going to happen and even knowing that we should, I'm not sure that I can.

    My life hasn't really changed all that much between level 3 and 4, but the mental toll from going back into 4 will be drastic I think.

    And I know I'm not alone with that feeling.

    Oh, you're definitely not alone in the everything is awful feeling. The issue is, in this case, I don't actually think moving to level 4 would help at all - it would just be widespread non-compliance. In practice, the government appear to have moved on the issue already, with the Level 3.1, 3.2, etc being basically just acknowledgment that drops in the alert level are not possible, but trying to get people to comply long enough that they mostly do their job anyway, while trying to get people to actually go and get fucking vaccinated, which I'm still kind of disappointed is this hard.

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    lonelyahavaexis
  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Registered User regular
    Yeah.

    The small thing giving me hope is that my suburb is almost 90% with our first dose, and almost 60 for second. That makes the looming possibility of in pursuing school a bit more tolerable

  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    -Loki- wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    A business can try and do it themselves, either by hiring independents, or using existing staff, but you're gambling at that point. Anything bad happens, shit could get expensive.

    I have a friend that works at Woolworths, and they were specifically told by head office while working the front to make sure people scan the QR code to not try to prevent any entry. They say it's for the workers safety. We all know it's because they're not hired as security, and if the 16 year old at the door tells an irate idiot they can't enter and gets punched in the face, Woolworths is heading to court.

    Thats the govs fault. If they wanna open up to business and demand they filter customers they can sort out the security. Even if Woolworths wouldnt get sued its still the government not untrained employees.

    Nobody should be forced to deal with unsafe or violent customers at work. Period.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
  • AntoshkaAntoshka Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Well, second jab got. Now to await the 5G/Induction letter.
    Edit:
    Also, one question answered - the covid health record app the government has deployed has my second vaccination record shown, while I'm still sitting in the waiting area to see if I have a reaction to the shot.

    Antoshka on
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    plufim
  • plufimplufim Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Sigh... more rules being changed in NSW in favour of business. The Everest horse race (fucking horse racing) was "only" going to be allowed 5,000 people. But under the new management, they're going straight to 10K for a race on Saturday.

    plufim on
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  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Registered User regular
  • AntoshkaAntoshka Registered User regular
    oh is there a new health record app?

    Yes, the one they announced a few weeks back, with the vaccination passport. You can access it at https://app-beta.covid19.health.nz

    n57PM0C.jpg
  • exisexis Registered User regular
    Mandatory vaccinations for NZ teachers and health workers, by Jan 1.

    Will be interesting to see what sort of legal challenges are mounted. I'd wager there are a non-negligable number of fervent anti-vaxxers in those groups.

    Antoshkalonelyahava
  • AntoshkaAntoshka Registered User regular
    exis wrote: »
    Mandatory vaccinations for NZ teachers and health workers, by Jan 1.

    Will be interesting to see what sort of legal challenges are mounted. I'd wager there are a non-negligable number of fervent anti-vaxxers in those groups.

    Thus far, legal challenges from Customs workers have been mounted, and failed, and I believe one from 4 ex- Aviation Security workers is currently ongoing, but so far precedent is on the government side.

    n57PM0C.jpg
    exis
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